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'[OT] Microsoft Office versus Free Alternatives'
2007\11\20@004052 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
Now I am using more and more Linux at home and I've not
met any problem yet with Open Office when opening
Word or PowerPoint document (even those from
microsoft.com).

Now IBM wants to enter the market with Lotus Symphoy.
I am a bit afraid of the name Lotus since I am using Lotus
Notes now. Even after one years of using it daily, I will still
say it is the worst email client I've ever used, much much
worse than Outlook.

Google actually offers Sun StarOffice for free with its
Google Pack.
http://pack.google.com/intl/en/pack_installer.html?nopers

So I think Microsoft now faces strong competition from
the free applications. And the free applications are really
good enough (and available for Linux/Windows and Mac).
Why people and companies still use Office?

For OS, it is a bit different. Linux is still suffering from driver
problems. Windows and Mac OS X are still easier to use
for average people. IMHO, calling 2008 the year of Linux
Desktop is a bit too optismistic. Of course, low cost PCs like
Asus EEE PC and the Everex Green gPC can make a
difference. If OLPC will succeed, it will make a difference
as well.
http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4357
http://www.linux.com/feature/121151

Regards,
Xiaofan

2007\11\20@013055 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
I still can't stand OO calc - it's way too slow, and doesn't follow
all of the little shortcuts I've learned on Excel.  I could re-learn
it, and the speed isn't unusable on a fast computer, but I miss having
excel on this system.  I'm also not going to pay a ton for it.

I'd rather google docs became my excel replacement than OO - speed is
similar, but having an online repository is very appealing to me.
Still is harder to use than excel...

-Adam

On Nov 20, 2007 12:40 AM, Xiaofan Chen <spam_OUTxiaofancTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\11\20@014843 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face

On Nov 19, 2007, at 10:40 PM, Xiaofan Chen wrote:

> So I think Microsoft now faces strong competition from
> the free applications. And the free applications are really
> good enough (and available for Linux/Windows and Mac).
> Why people and companies still use Office?

Inertia.

For another example of a closed-but-better e-mail client, Apple's  
Mail.App is excellent, and the OS X 10.5 Leopard version just added  
automated calendar integration.

Problem is... I could send you an invite from this Mac right now, and  
it'd be useless... your Notes system wouldn't understand it, and  
neither would someone's Outlook/Exchange system.

Standards exist, but no one desires to follow them, and no company  
with deep pockets who's buying ALL of the above, has ever demanded  
interoperability.  And probably never will.

> For OS, it is a bit different. Linux is still suffering from driver
> problems. Windows and Mac OS X are still easier to use
> for average people. IMHO, calling 2008 the year of Linux
> Desktop is a bit too optismistic. Of course, low cost PCs like
> Asus EEE PC and the Everex Green gPC can make a
> difference. If OLPC will succeed, it will make a difference
> as well.
> http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4357
> http://www.linux.com/feature/121151

Linux on the desktop for most non-geeks will always be a non-starter  
due to software piracy.  People running home machines "borrow"  
software from their friends all the time... good, or bad.

I listened to a couple of guys figure out how to copy MS Office on the  
Ham Radio just today, in fact.  No shame.  Just a long discussion  
about how to properly copy the disc so the other guy could "get it".

I think if Microsoft continues down the path they've started down --  
cracking down on piracy, the Windows Genuine (Dis)Advantage system --  
they're just going to give folks reasons to look for free  
alternatives, which is an indication that all it takes for them to be  
marginalized by home/personal users is enforcement of the licensing  
they supposedly already agreed to!

As far as business go... very few Corporations do anything that makes  
sense.

People are far more worried about taking risks in middle management  
these days, than in picking the right software tools for the job.  If  
it's been MS Office since 1990-whatever, it will remain MS Office  
forever, until either a competitor takes a risk on something different  
and gains a serious monetary benefit from it, or the marketing engines  
of the CEO trade rags pick up and run with some articles on how  
"wonderful" something different is.

IT decisions are so rarely made from real metrics, and far more than  
any other department in the company, they hinge on two things:  1)  
what the CIO wants -- whether it makes any sense or not, and 2)  
whatever will keep the CIO in power with a large department full of  
techs constantly working on "problems".

Ever see a CIO try to make his department smaller by picking the right  
technology so he'd be forced to lay off staff?  Right...

The most stable and useful mail system I ever worked with was at a  
medium-sized company (couple of hundred people) that had a Linux box  
with proper RAID sub-systems running qmail, courier-pop3/imap, and a  
webmail application.

In other words, regular old standards-based mail.

Everyone in the company used the mail client of their choice.  Two  
mail clients were supported by the desktop support folks, "officially"  
but they weren't the typical IT folks acting like they were there to  
"save" everyone, they SERVED the staff, and would help with  
configuration and other issues on other clients... and everything ran  
great.

Shared calendaring was handled by a web application, except for a VERY  
small minority who would send out Outlook calendar requests... which  
ultimately are human-readable on a non-MS client... so folks just put  
it on their web calendar or kept their own notes... worked fine.

That system NEVER was down.  (I know, I sysadmin'ed it for three  
years.)  We rebooted it ONCE for a security patch that we determined  
had to have a reboot, and we had maybe four or five other mini-windows  
where we had to restart a daemon or two.  Total cost of ownership over  
the three years I was there?  $0/year for software, about $1000/year  
for the hardware, if you were only counting those three years.  It had  
been in service for a year before I arrived, and since I left, I don't  
think the hardware (other than failed drives) has yet been replaced.

The sysadmin who built it said, "heck if this stuff is good enough for  
ISP's with hundreds of thousands of users, it'll work great for our  
little company"... and he was right.  He also had the good fortune of  
a couple of clueful upper managers who realized that Exchange/Outlook  
was a never-ending drain on the company budget and when the sysadmin  
said "free"... they liked what they heard.

--
Nate Duehr
.....nateKILLspamspam@spam@natetech.com



2007\11\20@050114 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Hi,

Once upon a time, Lotus123 was THE spreadsheet and WordPerfect is THE text
editor. Microsoft stuff was nothing else just a toy comparing to these. But
then both of them lost the competition by unable to implement a good version
for Windows. They did not realise how important is the graphics and the
'clickability'. Still I'd prefer WordPerfect if that was good enough,
however, they could not make it stable and still as fast and powerful as the
DOS version was. I had almost all versions of WordPerect (later on Novell
and then Corel) Office hoping that the new version is the one, but the big
bumm never came. You can still do many things with the DOS based one that
you cannot with the latest MSOffice or OOffice - this latter one is only an
MS Office clone anyway. If I were in the position I'd make an open source
version of WP instead of still silently selling it with no marketing. Good
example how successful is this strategy could be is Netscape - which at a
time was also the industry leader but lost the battle against MS (just like
WP, Lotus or OS2) and now getting back with the name Mozilla->Firefox.

Tamas


On Nov 20, 2007 6:48 AM, Nate Duehr <natespamKILLspamnatetech.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\11\20@062249 by Stef Mientki

flavicon
face


Tamas Rudnai wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Once upon a time, Lotus123 was THE spreadsheet and WordPerfect is THE text
> editor. Microsoft stuff was nothing else just a toy comparing to these. But
> then both of them lost the competition by unable to implement a good version
> for Windows. They did not realise how important is the graphics and the
> 'clickability'. Still I'd prefer WordPerfect if that was good enough,
> however, they could not make it stable and still as fast and powerful as the
> DOS version was. I had almost all versions of WordPerect (later on Novell
> and then Corel) Office hoping that the new version is the one, but the big
> bumm never came. You can still do many things with the DOS based one that
> you cannot with the latest MSOffice or OOffice - this latter one is only an
> MS Office clone anyway. If I were in the position I'd make an open source
> version of WP instead of still silently selling it with no marketing. Good
> example how successful is this strategy could be is Netscape - which at a
> time was also the industry leader but lost the battle against MS (just like
> WP, Lotus or OS2) and now getting back with the name Mozilla->Firefox.
>
>  
I'm afraid Mozilla, Firefox, Thunderbird are at the end.
Although the package is quiet good, and I'm still using it, because it's
the best (freeware) at this moment,
there is no real development going on, except a lot of cosmetic. I've
recorded a number of bugs/problems last year,
and non of these bugs were recognized as being bugs :-(
If you see how clumsy tabbed browsing is implemented, although there is
already a perfect version available for a number of years (Piro), you
have to conclude that aren't any real developers (with domain
knowledge)  involved anymore.

cheers,
Stef




Het UMC St Radboud staat geregistreerd bij de Kamer van Koophandel in het handelsregister onder nummer 41055629.
The Radboud University Nijmegen Medical Centre is listed in the Commercial Register of the Chamber of Commerce under file number 41055629.


2007\11\20@063003 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 11/20/07, Tamas Rudnai <EraseMEtamas.rudnaispam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Once upon a time, Lotus123 was THE spreadsheet and WordPerfect is THE text
> editor. Microsoft stuff was nothing else just a toy comparing to these. But
> then both of them lost the competition by unable to implement a good version
> for Windows. They did not realise how important is the graphics and the
> 'clickability'. Still I'd prefer WordPerfect if that was good enough,
> however, they could not make it stable and still as fast and powerful as the
> DOS version was. I had almost all versions of WordPerect (later on Novell
> and then Corel) Office hoping that the new version is the one, but the big
> bumm never came. You can still do many things with the DOS based one that
> you cannot with the latest MSOffice or OOffice - this latter one is only an
> MS Office clone anyway. If I were in the position I'd make an open source
> version of WP instead of still silently selling it with no marketing. Good
> example how successful is this strategy could be is Netscape - which at a
> time was also the industry leader but lost the battle against MS (just like
> WP, Lotus or OS2) and now getting back with the name Mozilla->Firefox.
>

Open Source does not help Netscape and I think it will not save Wordpefect
either. Corel was once playing with Linux and it did not work out (Corel
Linux was actually quite nice).

I will tend to believe Open Source will not help OS/2 either. Let it die
a slow death. Same thing for BeOS, a nice OS but now dead.

Open Office, even you mention it as a MS Office Clone, is promissing.

Xiaofan

2007\11\20@063717 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 11/20/07, Stef Mientki <s.mientkispamspam_OUTru.nl> wrote:

> I'm afraid Mozilla, Firefox, Thunderbird are at the end.
> Although the package is quiet good, and I'm still using it, because it's
> the best (freeware) at this moment,
> there is no real development going on, except a lot of cosmetic. I've
> recorded a number of bugs/problems last year,
> and non of these bugs were recognized as being bugs :-(

Under Ubuntu, it is rather unstable but some say it is a Ubuntu
problem. I am stucked with Firefox under Linux but I'd like to
see some other alternatives. Still I like it better than Opera.

Under Windows, normally I will use IE.

> If you see how clumsy tabbed browsing is implemented, although there is
> already a perfect version available for a number of years (Piro), you
> have to conclude that aren't any real developers (with domain
> knowledge)  involved anymore.

Do you really think Tabbed Browsing is an innovation? Personally
I do not use it very often.

Xiaofan

2007\11\20@070440 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Well, I really hope Firefox will survive, I like it very much and also it
gives me a safer browsing - still using Opera as the safest browser for
really untrusted sites though. Opera actually gives the best feature set,
however, they still could not manage to get ALL sites to handled properly -
with Firefox I have never had a problem with any sites, except some of our
internal ones that developed in .NET for some reason. For some other
internal things funnily Safari is the best as the rendering engine seems to
be uberfast which is very good for very long html tables (seconds compared
to minutes to display those). And also, Safari works with everything, not
like Opera, so maybe it will replace Firefox at some time.

Anyway, I think, we would not talk about Netscape (Firefox) today - only as
good old days stories - without making it opensource.

Tamas


On Nov 20, 2007 11:37 AM, Xiaofan Chen <@spam@xiaofancKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\11\20@075612 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 11/20/07, Tamas Rudnai <RemoveMEtamas.rudnaiTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:
> Well, I really hope Firefox will survive, I like it very much and also it
> gives me a safer browsing - still using Opera as the safest browser for
> really untrusted sites though. Opera actually gives the best feature set,
> however, they still could not manage to get ALL sites to handled properly -

So Opera will always be a niche. Firefox is kind of mainstream along
with Internet Explorer. So I think Firefox will survive and perhaps
gain more and more popularity. IE7 is said to be not good.

> with Firefox I have never had a problem with any sites, except some of our
> internal ones that developed in .NET for some reason. For some other
> internal things funnily Safari is the best as the rendering engine seems to
> be uberfast which is very good for very long html tables (seconds compared
> to minutes to display those). And also, Safari works with everything, not
> like Opera, so maybe it will replace Firefox at some time.

Will Apple release Safari for Linux?

> Anyway, I think, we would not talk about Netscape (Firefox) today - only as
> good old days stories - without making it opensource.
>

That is true. It did not save Netscape as a company but it does
save the product.

Xiaofan

2007\11\20@101622 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
On Nov 20, 2007 12:56 PM, Xiaofan Chen <spamBeGonexiaofancspamBeGonespamgmail.com> wrote:

> So Opera will always be a niche. Firefox is kind of mainstream along
> with Internet Explorer. So I think Firefox will survive and perhaps
> gain more and more popularity. IE7 is said to be not good.


On mobile phones Opera could be the one. The Opera 4 for mobile is just
brilliant, I love it - almost as usable as a desktop browser :-) But on PC
yes, never will be a serious competitor I suppose.

Will Apple release Safari for Linux?


AFAIK Safari is a derivation of KHTML but I do not know if Apple is
concentrating on Linux or maybe they see that even as a competitor. Is
iTunes or QickTimes available on Linux?

Tamas



{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\11\20@104536 by Dario Greggio

face picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:

> Under Windows, normally I will use IE.

I actually use Netscape on one machine, and Firefox on another(s).

> Do you really think Tabbed Browsing is an innovation? Personally
> I do not use it very often.

Oh, I did like it on the other hand...
I use it a lot, to open up *all* of the "Posts Since Last Visit" at
Microchip Forum :)

--
Ciao, Dario

2007\11\20@111002 by Neil Cherry

picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> On 11/20/07, Tamas Rudnai <TakeThisOuTtamas.rudnaiEraseMEspamspam_OUTgmail.com> wrote:
>> Well, I really hope Firefox will survive, I like it very much and also it
>> gives me a safer browsing - still using Opera as the safest browser for
>> really untrusted sites though. Opera actually gives the best feature set,
>> however, they still could not manage to get ALL sites to handled properly -
>
> So Opera will always be a niche. Firefox is kind of mainstream along
> with Internet Explorer. So I think Firefox will survive and perhaps
> gain more and more popularity. IE7 is said to be not good.

I like Firefox because it allows me to intelligently surf the 'net.
MS has never been about choice so I have very little choice about what
I want turned on or off. Firefox allows me to make those choices for
myself. I use IE when mandated to and Firefox the rest of the time.
Opera is very good and when I test my css and html designs I include
it. I won't go into the problems with IE, css and html (or the web
programming languages).

> Will Apple release Safari for Linux?

Apple has no intentions in producing anything for Linux.

--
Linux Home Automation         Neil Cherry       RemoveMEncherryspamTakeThisOuTlinuxha.com
http://www.linuxha.com/                         Main site
http://linuxha.blogspot.com/                    My HA Blog
Author of:            Linux Smart Homes For Dummies

2007\11\20@144506 by Stef Mientki

flavicon
face

>  
>> If you see how clumsy tabbed browsing is implemented, although there is
>> already a perfect version available for a number of years (Piro), you
>> have to conclude that aren't any real developers (with domain
>> knowledge)  involved anymore.
>>    
>
> Do you really think Tabbed Browsing is an innovation? Personally
> I do not use it very often.
>  
You never use bookmarks, some kind of explorer, or other hierarchical
ordered data ????
I think the User Editable Hierarchical Tree is at this moment the best
data organization there is,
but if know something better, please let me know, I've been looking for
some better method for years  ;-)
And tabbed browsing is nothing different than such a tree (at least if
you use Piro's)

Stef

> Xiaofan
>  

2007\11\20@152123 by Harold Hallikainen

face
flavicon
face
On tabbed browsing, is there a key combination on FireFox to rotate among
the open tabs like alt-tab to rotate among open windows? I find it a pain
to go back and forth between tabs using a mouse.

Harold


--
FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com - Advertising
opportunities available!

2007\11\20@153849 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Ctrl+TAB

On Nov 20, 2007 8:15 PM, Harold Hallikainen <haroldEraseMEspam.....hallikainen.org> wrote:

> On tabbed browsing, is there a key combination on FireFox to rotate among
> the open tabs like alt-tab to rotate among open windows? I find it a pain
> to go back and forth between tabs using a mouse.
>
> Harold
>
>
> --
> FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com - Advertising
> opportunities available!
> -

2007\11\20@154139 by Marcel Duchamp

picon face
Harold Hallikainen wrote:
> On tabbed browsing, is there a key combination on FireFox to rotate among
> the open tabs like alt-tab to rotate among open windows? I find it a pain
> to go back and forth between tabs using a mouse.
>
> Harold
>
>
from google on firefox hotkeys:
http://www.mozilla.org/support/firefox/keyboard

specifically, control-tab to move to right,
control-shift-tab to move to the left

control-w to close tab

etc.

2007\11\20@160032 by Mark Scoville

flavicon
face
>
> On tabbed browsing, is there a key combination on FireFox to rotate among
> the open tabs like alt-tab to rotate among open windows? I find it a pain
> to go back and forth between tabs using a mouse.
>
> Harold
>

Ctrl-Tab goes "forward" to the next tab
Ctrl-Shift-Tab goes "backward" to the previous tab

-- Mark



2007\11\20@182327 by Bryan Bishop

picon face
On Tuesday 20 November 2007 13:43, Stef Mientki wrote:
> I think the User Editable Hierarchical Tree is at this moment the
> best data organization there is,

Is this an extension for Firefox?

- Bryan
an Opera power user (300 tabs per day, hurray)

2007\11\20@183852 by Bryan Bishop

picon face
On Tuesday 20 November 2007 05:37, Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> Do you really think Tabbed Browsing is an innovation? Personally
> I do not use it very often.

Somewhat of an innovation. The tabbed browsing idea has really
stagnated. Firefox implements it (plus Piro's work or the other
(lesser) vertical tabber extension), Opera makes it work as it is
supposed to, and even dillo implements tabs, I think. But.

Tabs are far too stagnating. I can't get to all of my information. I
can't hierarchically sort tabs as I want, I can't view them as easily
as I view my bookmarks. I hear that there's a browser for Macs out
there called "Pathway" that makes a *graph* as you browse. That's
amazing, especially if it actively caches and lets you move around all
of the nodes and lets you navigate it as if on the command line. That
would be innovative.

But as it is, tabbed browsing, heh. Yeah. On a related note, here's my
FF work: http://heybryan.org/shots/June12th02007_Firefox_interface.wmv

- Bryan

2007\11\20@184252 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Nov 21, 2007 3:43 AM, Stef Mientki <EraseMEs.mientkispamru.nl> wrote:
> >
> > Do you really think Tabbed Browsing is an innovation? Personally
> > I do not use it very often.
> >
> You never use bookmarks, some kind of explorer, or other hierarchical
> ordered data ????
> I think the User Editable Hierarchical Tree is at this moment the best
> data organization there is,
> but if know something better, please let me know, I've been looking for
> some better method for years  ;-)
> And tabbed browsing is nothing different than such a tree (at least if
> you use Piro's)

Sorry I have no idea what you are talking about. What is Piro? What
is the relation between User Editable Hierarchical Tree with tabbed
browsing?

Xiaofan

2007\11\20@193956 by stef mientki

picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> On Nov 21, 2007 3:43 AM, Stef Mientki <RemoveMEs.mientkiEraseMEspamEraseMEru.nl> wrote:
>  
>>> Do you really think Tabbed Browsing is an innovation? Personally
>>> I do not use it very often.
>>>
>>>      
>> You never use bookmarks, some kind of explorer, or other hierarchical
>> ordered data ????
>> I think the User Editable Hierarchical Tree is at this moment the best
>> data organization there is,
>> but if know something better, please let me know, I've been looking for
>> some better method for years  ;-)
>> And tabbed browsing is nothing different than such a tree (at least if
>> you use Piro's)
>>    
>
> Sorry I have no idea what you are talking about. What is Piro?
Some Japanese guy, who started tabbed browsing 5 years ago,
Firefox/Mozilla/Netscape developers never understood the high value of
this (probably these "developers"  aren't  "users" of their own product ;-)
http://piro.sakura.ne.jp/xul/tabextensions/index.html.en

cheers,
Stef

> What
> is the relation between User Editable Hierarchical Tree with tabbed
> browsing?
>
> Xiaofan
>  

2007\11\20@194733 by stef mientki

picon face
Bryan Bishop wrote:
> On Tuesday 20 November 2007 05:37, Xiaofan Chen wrote:
>  
>> Do you really think Tabbed Browsing is an innovation? Personally
>> I do not use it very often.
>>    
>
> Somewhat of an innovation. The tabbed browsing idea has really
> stagnated. Firefox implements it (plus Piro's work or the other
> (lesser) vertical tabber extension), Opera makes it work as it is
> supposed to,
well I should try Opera again !
>  and even dillo implements tabs, I think. But.
>
> Tabs are far too stagnating. I can't get to all of my information. I
> can't hierarchically sort tabs as I want,
Piro let you do it
>  I can't view them as easily
> as I view my bookmarks.
Piro can be configured exactly like the bookmarks
>  I hear that there's a browser for Macs out
> there called "Pathway" that makes a *graph* as you browse. That's
> amazing, especially if it actively caches and lets you move around all
> of the nodes and lets you navigate it as if on the command line. That
> would be innovative.
>  
I've tried hypergraphs, although they look very impressive,
and everyone loves them at first sight,
from my little experience they add just a fraction of the dimension to a
organizable tree.

> But as it is, tabbed browsing, heh. Yeah. On a related note, here's my
> FF work: http://heybryan.org/shots/June12th02007_Firefox_interface.wmv
>
>  
isn't this a ordinary tree ?

Stef
> - Bryan
>  

2007\11\20@202950 by Bryan Bishop

picon face
On Tuesday 20 November 2007 18:47, stef mientki wrote:
> > Tabs are far too stagnating. I can't get to all of my information.
> > I can't hierarchically sort tabs as I want,
>
> Piro let you do it
>
> >  I can't view them as easily
> > as I view my bookmarks.
>
> Piro can be configured exactly like the bookmarks

Really? Last I checked, it was just a verticalized version of the tab
bar and nothing like the bookmark editors that we see out there, like
KDE's keditbookmarks or Opera's bookmark editor (which, btw, seems to
choke around 2 MB of data ... though KDE's tool chokes (and dies) much,
much more easily).

- Bryan

2007\11\20@214542 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 11/20/07, Nate Duehr <RemoveMEnatespam_OUTspamKILLspamnatetech.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Innertia can act againt Microsoft as well. To be honest, Office 2000
(or 97) is good enough for most people and most organization.
Windows XP is good enough for most people and most organization.
In fact, many companies do not want to upgrade to Vista.

As for standard, I think the fact is Windows and Office are defacto
standard in the real world. So this is a bit difficult to break.

{Quote hidden}

I will tend to think people will not want to use Piracy if the free
alternatives are good enough. Yes software piracy helps Microsoft
in the emerging market like China where Piracy is preventing local
software companies to grow bigger. But the main thing is still that
the free alternatives are not good enough for average Joe users.

My brother once was tasked to switch some 10 users to Open
Office many years ago in a small company (around year 2000?).
It was not there yet and it was a failure. Not so sure if will
be a success now.

Xiaofan

2007\11\21@005318 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

> Do you really think Tabbed Browsing is an innovation?

I dunno.  Seems like it was a solution for a problem that barely
exists any more.  Nice, dense, slow-to-download pages on slow
internet connections.  You could open something (or a set of
somethings) in additional tabs and have them download while
you were reading the first page(s.)  But network connections
got a lot faster, and most web pages have gone the way of
flashy magazines - not as much content, "artistically arranged."
I don't use tabs much, and I've never quite figured out why
tabs are better than windows.  But I do like the hierarchical
bookmark structures that are possible now...

BillW

2007\11\21@041110 by Stef Mientki

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Bryan Bishop wrote:
> On Tuesday 20 November 2007 18:47, stef mientki wrote:
>  
>>> Tabs are far too stagnating. I can't get to all of my information.
>>> I can't hierarchically sort tabs as I want,
>>>      
>> Piro let you do it
>>
>>    
>>>  I can't view them as easily
>>> as I view my bookmarks.
>>>      
>> Piro can be configured exactly like the bookmarks
>>    
>
> Really? Last I checked, it was just a verticalized version of the tab
> bar and nothing like the bookmark editors that we see out there,
To be honest, last time I used it, is more than 2 years ago ;-)
At that time it did, and I think it's still in the future list.
Since that time, I used a combination of plain Mozilla and
my own browsers, based on existing active-X components.
Now it would be interesting to compare Opera against my own browsers ;-)

cheers,
Stef



Het UMC St Radboud staat geregistreerd bij de Kamer van Koophandel in het handelsregister onder nummer 41055629.
The Radboud University Nijmegen Medical Centre is listed in the Commercial Register of the Chamber of Commerce under file number 41055629.


2007\11\21@043616 by Tamas Rudnai

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I've never seen a tree organized nor double/triple etc row tabs either. But
there is the drop-down menu on the tab bar which is great, and sometimes I
found useful the IE7's thumb view as well (useful when you do not remember
the name of the page but how it looks like). BTW Opera has something
similar: when you keep the mouse pointer over the tab it shows the page in a
stamp size window.

Tamas

On Nov 21, 2007 1:31 AM, Bryan Bishop <RemoveMEkanzureTakeThisOuTspamspamgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\11\21@055812 by Jake Anderson

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There are addons for firefox that will do this.
showall or something?
you press F12 and it pops up a thumbnail view of all the tabs in this
window or in all windows (with some other modifier key)
I used to have it installed but i hardly used it.

The best ones I have found are unread tabs and coloured tabs addons.

Tamas Rudnai wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> --

2007\11\21@071534 by Bryan Bishop

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On Wednesday 21 November 2007 03:11, Stef Mientki wrote:
> Since that time, I used a combination of plain Mozilla and
> my own browsers, based on existing active-X components.
> Now it would be interesting to compare Opera against my own browsers
> ;-)

I want to find a discussion list for discussing browser innovations and
brainstorming. Any suggestions? Maybe Mozilla would be willing to host
it, or Wikia.

- Bryan

2007\11\21@073327 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Thanks Jake,

Found it, it's called ShowCase:
http://showcase.uworks.net/

Installed it and works great! Thanks for that!

Tamas


On Nov 21, 2007 10:58 AM, Jake Anderson <RemoveMEjakeKILLspamspamvapourforge.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2007\11\21@092302 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
On 11/21/07, William Chops Westfield <spamBeGonewestfwSTOPspamspamEraseMEmac.com> wrote:
>
> > Do you really think Tabbed Browsing is an innovation?
>
> I dunno.  Seems like it was a solution for a problem that barely
> exists any more.  Nice, dense, slow-to-download pages on slow
> internet connections.  You could open something (or a set of
> somethings) in additional tabs and have them download while
> you were reading the first page(s.)  But network connections
> got a lot faster, and most web pages have gone the way of
> flashy magazines - not as much content, "artistically arranged."
> I don't use tabs much, and I've never quite figured out why
> tabs are better than windows.  But I do like the hierarchical
> bookmark structures that are possible now...

I use tabs all the time, and an very frustrated that my work computer
doesn't have a version of IE with tabs (I use both firefox and IE,
primarily firefox).

It comes down to different work styles.  Generally I'll have 10-40
webpages open at a time, and it would be impossible to manage without
tabs.  Much of the reason is that I'm doing or keeping track of
several tasks (or several aspects of one task) at a time.

So the other day when I was implementing the filled polygon algorithm
I had one browser window with all the tabs related to the fill
algorithm, another window with x.org programming info, another window
for PHP development (the polygon is derived from data obtained from a
PHP server I'm also writing), and another winodw for office tasks
(notes and time tracking in google docs, email, etc).

And that was just one of the tasks - I had several other browsers open
for other things as the day progressed (often I'll open a link in a
new browser and immediately minimize it as a to-do later to avoid
distractions taking too much time or having to stop and formally add
it to a todo list elsewhere)

I'm sure I could change my work patterns if needed, but (especially
with large dual monitors) I can manage all that information quite
quickly with tabs, and I don't have to waste time re-loading
something, or searching through the task bar for the right window.

Tabs are just another tool, and I'm certain that they could actually
get in the way or slow someone down if they don't already fit into
their existing work pattern.

-Adam

--
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Moving in southeast Michigan? Buy my house: http://ubasics.com/house/

Interested in electronics? Check out the projects at http://ubasics.com

Building your own house? Check out http://ubasics.com/home/

2007\11\21@110538 by Morgan Olsson

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Den 2007-11-20 10:54:34 skrev Tamas Rudnai <KILLspamtamas.rudnaispamBeGonespamgmail.com>:

> MSOffice or OOffice - this latter one is only an
> MS Office clone anyway.

Absolutely not.  It was originally develuped by Star Division in the eighties or so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarOffice#History

I also heard that the original company star division originally meant to sell program modules or tools, and put together word processing mor elike a demo of th ecapabilities at first, but i am not sure that is true.

I have been on OOo mailing lists before and ther was often debate of wether something should be designed the logical way for user or program efficiency, or mimic other apps so users should move over more easily.  It seems that it is now gettign bashed for beeing to much like?

I once workd as a teacher and educated the pupils on StarOffice5 and MSOffice97

They seemed to get a grip on StarOffice quicker.
Menues were better organised, etc.  After having learnt MSO, the first half day for Staroffice i showed the program and how to download and install.  (The stupid school had bought MSO, but we got permission to use no-cost software)
The second half day a pupil downloaded, installed, and made her first work (a schedule for the weekend) and this was her first term with computers.

Since that both OOo and MS have improved of course.
Who got most from the other, and other programs is hard to tell ;)
Staroffice have got rid of too much integraiton such as the own desktop (which was ahead of its time... that never came) and now behaves like separate programs for spreadsheets etc (although you can easily stil edit a Calc spreadsheet put in the text document etc.


--
Morgan Olsson

2007\11\21@112828 by Morgan Olsson

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Den 2007-11-20 13:56:10 skrev Xiaofan Chen <EraseMExiaofancspamEraseMEgmail.com>:

> So Opera will always be a niche.

Yes definately.  It is the only browser i know that use daughter windows, and then have several main windows withe daughter windows in, and it have had this function for ages.
It was also the first browser with true zoom, true fullscreen, nice shortcuts, mouse gestures, and so on.
You can save windows setups under name, so for exampl you can open a new main window wiht all PIC-sites you commonly use as daughter windows set up as last (or tabs), and have another main windows with other setups...
Try it some things and browse around Opera documentaion!
Firefox have mimicked most by plug-ins i think, and have some nice extra but Opera is working from start.
I think Opera is still leading.
It saves time compared to other browser.
It is also the browser with widest OS support, from tiny phones to all major desktop OS.


--
Morgan Olsson

2007\11\21@115359 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Yes, that's true. The only thing is that non all pages could be displayed
wit Opera - and I'm just waiting and waiting for years to fix it but nothing
has happened so far so getting tired and using Firefox instead - otherwise
would use Opera only. Now I am using it almost only when I need to download
from a p2p network :-) {no, no, only legal stuff like Linux ... ssshhh :-) }
and sometimes the irc facility - used to use and loved the mail client but
now Google is my main mail storage and Opera does not do a good thing on it
:-( I really feel sorry about that.

Tamas


On Nov 21, 2007 4:08 PM, Morgan Olsson <@spam@ost011@spam@spamspam_OUTosterlen.tv> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\11\21@185310 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Nov 22, 2007 12:08 AM, Morgan Olsson <.....ost011spam_OUTspamosterlen.tv> wrote:
> Try it some things and browse around Opera documentaion!
> Firefox have mimicked most by plug-ins i think, and have some nice extra but
> Opera is working from start.
> I think Opera is still leading.
> It saves time compared to other browser.
> It is also the browser with widest OS support, from tiny phones to all major
> desktop OS.

The main problem is that Opera renders some website strangely. It may not
be its fault but the reality is that the end user experience is not as good.
In this aspect, Firefox and IE6 are both much better.

IE7 is only better than IE6 that it works better with Microsoft's new
Live services.
Other than that, IE7 is no better than IE6 or worse. Firefox is quite good but
hopefully it will get more stable under Ubuntu (maybe my problem is related
to X driver for ATI9800SE or with Ubuntu or something else but Firefox crashes
from time to time).

Xiaofan

2007\11\23@080724 by Gerhard Fiedler

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Mark Scoville wrote:

>> On tabbed browsing, is there a key combination on FireFox to rotate
>> among the open tabs like alt-tab to rotate among open windows? I find
>> it a pain to go back and forth between tabs using a mouse.
>
> Ctrl-Tab goes "forward" to the next tab
> Ctrl-Shift-Tab goes "backward" to the previous tab

Which, FWIW, is the Windows standard for tabbed windows and works in most
applications.

Gerhard

2007\11\23@141004 by Morgan Olsson

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Den 2007-11-22 00:53:09 skrev Xiaofan Chen <TakeThisOuTxiaofanc.....spamTakeThisOuTgmail.com>:

> On Nov 22, 2007 12:08 AM, Morgan Olsson <TakeThisOuTost011KILLspamspamspamosterlen.tv> wrote:
>> Try it some things and browse around Opera documentaion!
>> Firefox have mimicked most by plug-ins i think, and have some nice extra but
>> Opera is working from start.
>> I think Opera is still leading.
>> It saves time compared to other browser.
>> It is also the browser with widest OS support, from tiny phones to all major
>> desktop OS.
>
> The main problem is that Opera renders some website strangely. It may not
> be its fault but the reality is that the end user experience is not as good.

I find I very seldom need to use Firefox.

Yes, websites too much use MS-browser-features, and i am not sure it is only good that Firefox (and in part Opera too) tries to also use non-ture-standard.  It would be better if sites adhere to standard...

> Firefox is quite good but

True, but lacks features i have become addicted to in Opera

> hopefully it will get more stable under Ubuntu (maybe my problem is related
> to X driver for ATI9800SE or with Ubuntu or something else but Firefox crashes
> from time to time).

Opera, Firefox and Konqueror are all stable on my Mandriva 2007 systems.
Adobe reader as plugin however crashes after a few wiews in any browser.  Flash workks in Opera but not in Firefox, but i think it is me; I cleaned up too many versions...

--
Morgan Olsson

2007\11\23@200405 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Nov 20, 2007 2:30 PM, M. Adam Davis <.....stienmanspamRemoveMEgmail.com> wrote:
> I still can't stand OO calc - it's way too slow, and doesn't follow
> all of the little shortcuts I've learned on Excel.  I could re-learn
> it, and the speed isn't unusable on a fast computer, but I miss having
> excel on this system.  I'm also not going to pay a ton for it.
>
> I'd rather google docs became my excel replacement than OO - speed is
> similar, but having an online repository is very appealing to me.
> Still is harder to use than excel...
>

How about GNumeric? It seems to be quite good. I actually did not
like OpenOffice before (still do not like the huge patches from time
to time) but now it seems to get better and better.

Gnumeric may have better Excel interoperability as the lead
maintainer will add OOXML support.
http://www.linux.com/feature/121930


Xiaofan

2007\11\23@233445 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Nov 24, 2007 3:04 AM, Morgan Olsson <RemoveMEost011spamspamBeGoneosterlen.tv> wrote:
> > hopefully it will get more stable under Ubuntu (maybe my problem is related
> > to X driver for ATI9800SE or with Ubuntu or something else but Firefox crashes
> > from time to time).
>
> Opera, Firefox and Konqueror are all stable on my Mandriva 2007 systems.
> Adobe reader as plugin however crashes after a few wiews in any browser.
> Flash workks in Opera but not in Firefox, but i think it is me; I cleaned up
> too many versions...

Mandriva 2008 does not even install in my computer (so did 2006). It boots
and then hangs (seems to try to boot the initial graphic install screen).

PClinuxOS 2007, on the other hand, works fine and I like the fact that
is uses Synaptic as the package management system. It is said that
PClinuxOS is a fork of Mandriva. Now it is No 1 in distrowatch. It
still lacks the smoothness of Ubuntu.

Now I have two RPM based installation (Fedora 7 and PClinux 2007)
but I still like Ubuntu better (6.06 and 7.10). OpenSuse looks good
and seems to be more professional than other distros but I just do
not quite like it (a bit slow).

Xiaofan

2007\11\29@114831 by Mauricio Giovagnini

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Xiaofan Chen escribió:
> Innertia can act againt Microsoft as well. To be honest, Office 2000
> (or 97) is good enough for most people and most organization.
> Windows XP is good enough for most people and most organization.
> In fact, many companies do not want to upgrade to Vista.
>
> As for standard, I think the fact is Windows and Office are defacto
> standard in the real world. So this is a bit difficult to break.
>

Is true but its also true that most of the people don't use even the 2% of the
word or excel.


> I will tend to think people will not want to use Piracy if the free
> alternatives are good enough. Yes software piracy helps Microsoft
> in the emerging market like China where Piracy is preventing local
> software companies to grow bigger.

I Totally agree.

> But the main thing is still that the free alternatives are not
> good enough for average Joe users.
>

I think open office is good enough.  A nice "retouch" on the interface will do
much more than a deep change on its functionality.   The functionality is nice
and has even more than what a standard user will use.

People relates a good application with a nice interface, sometimes is true
sometimes its not.

A friend of mine and software developers always says... no matter if it works
fine, but if it looks "nice" than the competition then people will think that
its better!.
I experienced that this is 'true'... at least on non-technical users.




--
------------------------------
Mauricio Giovagnini (Maunix)
http://www.maunix.com.ar
Cordoba, Arg.

2007\11\29@120450 by Herbert Graf

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On Thu, 2007-11-29 at 13:28 -0300, Mauricio Giovagnini wrote:
> > But the main thing is still that the free alternatives are not
>  > good enough for average Joe users.
> >
>
> I think open office is good enough.  

Absolutely. I've been using open office for a while, and the latest
version is for most people more then good enough to replace office IMHO.

I recently opened a pretty complicated word document on my windows
laptop. Without thinking I realized that the person who sent me this
document had used Office, but my laptop only had Open Office. The
document opened without issue, the tables were correct, the formatting
was spot on, the colouring and fonts had no issues. I was quite
impressed.

TTYL


'[OT] Microsoft Office versus Free Alternatives'
2007\12\02@065746 by Xiaofan Chen
face picon face
On 11/24/07, Morgan Olsson <spamBeGoneost011@spam@spamspam_OUTosterlen.tv> wrote:
> Opera, Firefox and Konqueror are all stable on my
> Mandriva 2007 systems.
> Adobe reader as plugin however crashes after a
>  few wiews in any browser.  Flash workks in Opera but
> not in Firefox, but i think it is me; I cleaned up too
> many versions...

I was sick of Firefox crashing three time today under
Ubuntu 6.06 LTS (it was an old V1.5 version). So I
tried to download the latest version of Swiftfox.
It still crashes.

So I downloaded Opera and installed the flash plugin.
Somehow the flash player installer says that Opera
is not supported. However manually copying the
plugin works.

And I tested opera with several websites, it seems
to be good so far.

Xiaofan

2007\12\03@115127 by Morgan Olsson

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Den 2007-12-02 12:57:39 skrev Xiaofan Chen <TakeThisOuTxiaofancspamspamgmail.com>:

> On 11/24/07, Morgan Olsson <ost011EraseMEspamosterlen.tv> wrote:

> So I downloaded Opera and installed the flash plugin.
> Somehow the flash player installer says that Opera
> is not supported. However manually copying the
> plugin works.

On Mandriva that is automagic

> And I tested opera with several websites, it seems
> to be good so far.

Welcome :)

(using Opera built-in mail client, but only for Piclist, BTW )

> Xiaofan



--
Morgan Olsson

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