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PICList Thread
'[OT] Magnetic Field, grass eating PIC, black holes'
1999\09\24@012359 by Russell McMahon

picon face
Andrew said -

>If anyone is serious about perpetual motion then you should be
>looking at converting heat (atomic kinetic energy) to motion, so some sort
>of nano-machines turning a generator or a very sensitive infra-red
>solar-cell.  Then you can get power *out* of your fridge :)

and Russell (with more time than sense, after having finally produced the
crucial customer demo he has been working on forever) sez -

Nope. This ain't perpetual and is even allowable as long as the heat keeps
flowing downhill.
Maximum theoretical energy percent extractable is related to the
temperatures involved and is given by the Carnot efficiency of

   (Tin-Tout)/Tin x 100%

Tin = room temperature
Tout = fridge temperature
T in absolute units (typically kelvins)
For a fridge at 0 degrees C (273 kelvins) and a room remperature of 20
degrees C (293 kelvins) the theoretical efficiency is (293-273)/293 = 6.8%
Achievable efficiency is lower than theoretical by typically a factor of 4
to 10 for real devices - YMMV.
You've still gotta make the cold first though and guess what ...
(Yep, I know Andrew knows this :-))

>  only over way is tapping zero-point field energy (if it can be tapped),
>since it seems that the volume of 'empty' space occupied by a cup is enough
>to boil all the oceans, this option is likely to a) not work, b) blow us
>to bits.

Zero Point energy (Casmir effect (spelling?) and its friends) sounds much
more promising but nobody knows exactly how big it really is or if there is
really any energy there at all. If it DOES work its NOT perpetual motion -
just more energy hanging around ready to use than we can find anywhere else.
Also its tied to the Hubble constant (believe it or no) AND the cosmological
constant (which Einstein said was his biggest mistake ever and doesn't
exist)(but it may) and you tend to be trying to push things around at atomic
distances more or less so we may not be getting amything from this area for
a while yet. See both Arthur C Clarke novel (???) for a reasonable sounding
drive based on this and a (believe it not) Buzz Aldrin SciFi novel drive
which described the drive in some detail and which depends on its
characteristics for a major plot turning point.

It all hinges on quantum mechanics which NOBODY knows anything about (all we
do is describe what we see happen) which says that as space can't be empty
(coz Heisenberg would get upset) so it must have some energy in it ..

>we could always make a small black hole, feed it charged particles and give
>it a good spin.  So long as we kept feeding it to keep the spin up we could
>extract power.  Sooner or later though it may get a little hard to handle!

Feeding it is cheating we want perpetual motion here. Anyway, you don't need
to feed it to get energy out!
Once we learn how to make small black holes (which seems "impossible" at
this stage in the state of things we find they have some very intertesting
Big ones which have been there since the beginning of time (ie for at leat
6000 years :-))(but that's another story :-)) are very big and radiate
energy as if they were a very very very cold black body. Thus we have the
standard aphorism

       Black holes suck.

This aint true folks.
Its just that our universe has a basic temperature of about 2.7 kelvins and
big black hole are colder BBR (black body radiators) than this so they suck
up the background radiation plus nay matter that comes along. Stand clear.
Small black holes which have a BB (black body) temperature above 2.7 kelvins
are net energy radiators.
Turns out temperature is inversely proportional to mass.
Smaller they get the hotter they get.
At the size of the moon in mass the BB temp is 2.7K and we get net
radiation. balance.
Smaller and we radiate to background space.
Size is about 0.1mm diameter.
Could fit in your pocket with ease but you may have trouble carrying it.
Now lets make it smaller.
Lifetime is inversely proportional to cube of mass.
Get down to the size of a modest mountain and it will last 15 billion years
and is as big as a proton.
This is at about 1 trillion degrees so we should be able to detect its
radiation :-)
Ebergy output rate is still surprisingly low
Shrink it on down and it gets hotter ! and faster energy out.
In the last second of its life you get 1,000,000 megatonnes of energy out -
warm enough yet?
Yes, this looks promising.

>PS:  Since we are getting tones of sunlight, why not use that?  Anyone made
>a solar powered PIC grass eating robot?

More practicla but its not in the same class as a black hole powered
At about 1300 watts/m^2 on a very clear tropical day or a realistic 100watt
or so of shaft power on a typical hot & clear Oz or Arizona day (do they
have grass in Arizona?) it would need around 20 square metres of solar cells
to get even moderately enough power to cut a nice dry Arizona lawn. But,
very importantly, at least this design would be more on topic because it, at
least, does incorporate a PIC:-) .

I wonder how many people have got this far :-)?
If you have you are probably not the sort who complain about a little OT
stuff :-)
Have a look at - still fairly disturbing stuff. What makes
you think that the 200,000 people who were force deported are now safe just
coz the UN are slowly taking over where they USED to live? Send someone
useful an email or something (they helpfully supply a list of useful people
and their addresses) .



(and someone will still flame me re the East Timor comment, go figure)

PS - if you did read this far let me know (just say "read it" or something -
it would be interesting to know how many read this sort of thing :-)
What can one black hole-less man do?
Help the hungry at no cost to yourself!

Hi Jeanette :-)

1999\09\24@015126 by Sean H. Breheny

face picon face

I had no idea we had such as good theoretical physicist/cosmologist on the
list! I was going to try to explain about zero-point energy,but you made
that totally unnecessary,and I learned quite a bit in the process! And yes,
I did read to the very end :-)

I do have to say, though, that I'm not sure to what radiation you are
referring when it comes to black holes. Hawking radiation? If not,then I am
puzzled,because I am not aware of any other form of black hole radiation
which is not related to simple gravitational potential energy (accretion
disk matter acceleration,etc.)


At 04:55 PM 9/24/99 +1200, you wrote:
| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
Save lives, please look at
Personal page: ICQ #: 3329174

1999\09\24@035059 by McMeikan, Andrew

Well the PIC list is not boring...
       I think the lifetime of a black hole is longer for bigger holes
isn't it.  I would have expected Hawking radiation to be more severe for a
small hole. esp. if it was mountain sized.  It would keep wanting to
evaporate all at once.  This could probably erase a 12c509 in fempto-seconds

 I hope nobody seriously tries getting zero-point energy, I'd hate to see
the universe start to un-ravel

Cold power extraction tho, is in our lifetimes.  I predict that within ten
years we will be discussing how to stop our PIC's from freezing over when
they are sucking in vibrational energy.

       cya,    andrew...

> {Original Message removed}

1999\09\24@065612 by gdaniel

Andrew said -
>If anyone is serious about perpetual motion then you should be
>looking at converting heat (atomic kinetic energy) to motion, so some sort
>of nano-machines turning a generator or a very sensitive infra-red
>solar-cell.  Then you can get power *out* of your fridge :)

hey ! been there, done that:

One of my (Graham Daniel)'s inventions: (I thought of it about 8 years
ago.(I have long sleeves))

Piezoelectric refrigerator and electric generator, acoustic damper:

All non absolute zero solids/liquids/liquids(etc) exibit physical
movement of their atoms (and molecules).  This is actually visible to
the naked eye as in famous "Brownian motion" where smoke particles are
observed in a microscope and seen to eratically change velocity and
direction due to colisions with other atoms/(&bigger stuff)

Now consider a micro engineered surface, using modern integrated circuit
construction techniques it should be possible to produce a micro array
of piezo electric "bumper zones" connected to microengineered full wave
bridge rectifiers.   The rectifier's DC outputs may then be grouped as
applicable to build the required output voltage/current.

Any motion against above surface will result in:
1) damping of such motion by piezoelectric bumpers such that rebound
energy is reduced.
2) output of electrical energy from piezoelectric bumpers available in
proportion to heat energy recieved at surface.

Surface may exibit other properties also such as "stickyness" and
acoustic damping and is liable to cause icing and reduced effectiveness
in some applications.


Steam engines may be out of fashion, but when you consider that an
internal combustion engine would require recovery of waste heat by
transfer just before top dead centre then fashion becomes rather
redundant, USE STRATIFIED HEAT EXCHANGERS ! and external combustion.

You heard it first from: Graham Daniel, managing director of Electronic
Product Enhancements.
Phone NZ 04 387 4347, Fax NZ 04 3874348, Cellular NZ 021 954 196.

1999\09\24@081818 by Dave VanHorn
> Shrink it on down and it gets hotter ! and faster energy out.
> In the last second of its life you get 1,000,000 megatonnes of energy
out -
> warm enough yet?

Sounds like the extended warantee would be a good idea.

1999\09\24@093601 by Russell McMahon

picon face
{Quote hidden}

Has vague resonances of Maxwell's demon :-)
Maxwell noted that gases have statistically distributed high and low energy
particles with a mean average energy. If, he said, some demon could separate
these, one could get heating and cooling at no extra cost. Then he failed to
make the step required to realise that it CAN be done. Its called a Hilsch
vortex tube or a Wiebel Rohr or a vortex tube or ... - mentioned here in
passing a year or so ago.

Briefly, take a long pipe and block it at about the midpoint with a wall.
Make a small central hole in the wall. Introduce air tangentially into the
pipe next to the mid point wall. Throttle the air flow out of the side that
the air is introduced into so that SOME of the air will tend to flow through
the hole and out the other open pipe end. (Actually slightly more complex
than this in practice but not very much so).

The air coming out the throttled end is noticeably hotter (up to around 100
kelvins hotter). The air coming out the end which is fed via the central
hole is noticeably cooler - up to about 50 kelvins typically depending on
hot/cold split. Several somewhat incompatible theories explain this device
rather well.

Unlike Graham's device above, this one does need a net energy input. And,
no, it cant be used regeneratively to give successively lower temperatures


1999\09\24@094838 by Reginald Neale

I read it. Glad your demo is working.

When I tried to reply privately to a message of yours,

.....apptechKILLspamspam@spam@CLEAR.NET.NZ bounced.

Reg Neale

1999\09\24@180407 by Graeme Smith

Zero Point energy is energy with regards to a ZERO point....

The problem is to define the ZERO POINT, not to find the energy.

The Universe is filled with energy, but to get it into a useful form, we
need to move it from a state of high energy supply to a state of low
energy supply, just like we need to move electrons from a state of high
voltage to a state of low voltage.

If we could define a Ground BELOW 0 volts, then by definition all voltages
would be higher regarding that point than they would be regarding the 0
volt point.

The problem is simply to define a state of energy depleation so large as
to suck energy into it... a black hole would suffice, but would also suck
mass, and light, and other things.... Think black Ground for
electricity.... [EG]


GRAEME SMITH                         email:
YMCA Edmonton

Address has changed with little warning!
(I moved across the hall! :) )

Email will remain constant... at least for now.

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