Searching \ for '[OT] Looking for a few good... moderators' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: www.piclist.com/techref/index.htm?key=looking+few+good
Search entire site for: 'Looking for a few good... moderators'.

Exact match. Not showing close matches.
PICList Thread
'[OT] Looking for a few good... moderators'
2004\10\14@173607 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
After reading through the new list server manual, it looks like individual
list members can be set to require moderation for each post and a
non-administrator (or group) can be assigned to approve or reject those
posts.

I would like to try to set up moderators for new posters, and for list
members who are brilliant engineers but have... conflicting personal values.

The list admins have more than enough to keep us busy. I don't want to ask
them to do this in addition to all the rest. So I'm looking for volunteers,
qualifications to include:

1. Way to much time on your hands. Retired, disabled, laid off, bored, no
life, twisted sense of priorities, etc... Like me, but not already tied up.

2. Some sense of what will and will not piss people off, start flame wars,
etc... To put it bluntly, people who don't understand why Olin was removed
from the list shouldn't apply.

3. A solid ability to ignore protests from people who's posts were rejected
and not worry if you were right or wrong.

The idea is that all new subscribers would start off moderated and after a
few posts where they didn't go wacko, they would be switched over to post
directly without moderation.

Some others who are of value but can't seem to avoid... discord... Could
also remain on moderated status and their posts edited or rejected when they
get out of line.

Those who are apparently useless and wacko... Mr. engineering info would be
one example... Would be deleted from the list after having a post or so
rejected and posting nothing of value.

Benefits: Your name in lights on the piclist.com website and mentioned
fondly on the list from time to time.

Pay: Are you kidding?



Any su... Takers?

---
James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin
spam_OUTjamesnewtonTakeThisOuTspampiclist.com  1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com



_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\14@221941 by Peter van Hoof

picon face
Not a taker ( and I could not fulfill any of the requirements, especially #2) but I applaude the initiative.

I would like to see Olin return though I would understand if he could not.

Kind regards
Peter van Hoof


_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\15@003810 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Those who are apparently useless and wacko... Mr. engineering info would
> be
> one example... Would be deleted from the list after having a post or so
> rejected and posting nothing of value.

FWIW - and I think it's worth noting, MOST of his 70 posts, in the 2 months
that he was with us, were technical input intended to assist others, as was
the one which ultimately lead to the fire fight and his downfall.


       Russell McMahon


_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\15@025619 by hilip Stortz

picon face
before i get into trouble, what are the rules regarding signatures on
email?  on many other list i'm on i use polite but sometimes political
or otherwise controversial sig lines, which do occasionally irritate
some (though whenever i get complaints from some i get support from many
more, and i do try hard to minimize any induced noise and i'm always
more than happy to change them when and if a nanny wants me to).
obviously there have to be rules, and i'm glad to follow them.  i don't
remember seeing this addressed on the sign up page etc. that i read a
couple of months ago, but perhaps i missed it in which case i apologize.
_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\15@080025 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
I do not favor doing this at all. It will do nothing more than scare off
potential posters. Let peer pressure and threat of termination serve to keep
things in order. It really seems to have worked pretty well so far.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\15@111932 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Fri, Oct 15, 2004 at 07:55:43AM -0400, Bob Ammerman wrote:
> I do not favor doing this at all. It will do nothing more than scare off
> potential posters. Let peer pressure and threat of termination serve to
> keep things in order. It really seems to have worked pretty well so far.

Agreed. It seems overbearing to me personally. Akin to guilty until
proven innocent.

All the controversial posts aren't really all so bad in and of themselves.
It's the multitude of responses that's the problem. If we simply self
policed and send any such commentary off-list then the vast majority of
the issue would be resolved. Also if an official moderator posted a single
warning, then anyone coming in after that is subject to dismissal.

Or how about another tact? Why not have the equivalent of the advocacy
newsgroups on USENET? They only serve one real purpose: to segregate the
obnoxious riff-raff from the legit users. But frankly is sometimes funny
to see what stupidity folks will post and the flamethrowing that comes
after. I just don't want it mixed with legit stuff.

But (big but...) it needs to be segregated from the rest of the list.
I've never used the channels (other than posting into the appropriate
one) so exactly how does it work? If you unsubscribe to a channel will
you simply not receive posts from that channel? Is it the same with digests?
If posts really disappear when why not add an UNMOD channel where literally
anything goes? So if some posts "Your momma is so _____________." in UNMOD
that's OK whereas is a termination offense anywhere else.

I know that we want to legislate civility. But I believe that most of
us are modal in our civility. There are things that we will discuss or
joke about with our spouses that would never be said in mixed company
or around children. I think that if the technology facilitates having
such a channel that you must explicitly subscribe to, then why not go for
it? Much better than having personal babysitters for grown folks.

BAJ
_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\15@174704 by Peter van Hoof

picon face
I think the unmoderated channel is a great idea Byron
I would most certainly be listening in on the regular list but value freedom
of speech to the extreme ( that's what yioiu get when you grow up in the
netherlands)

Peter


[snip]

>>>>why not add an UNMOD channel where literally
anything goes? So if some posts "Your momma is so _____________." in UNMOD
that's OK whereas is a termination offense anywhere else.
<<<<

[snip]


_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\15@175241 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
Well, the big rule for me is related to what effect it has, which is not a
fair rule at all, I understand, but the goal is to have stimulating,
informative exchanges without anyone being offended.

Now, what will offend someone is impossible to guess, of course. But it is
possible to look at probabilities. Saying something that is controversial is
more likely to cause a problem, but more important is the way it is said.
For example "..that was stupid!" compared to "...that is unlikely." or
"...are you sure about that?"

As far as sig lines go, I just see them as a way to say something (a very
little something) off-topic inside an on topic post. Or to explain something
about yourself, or advertise your company or website, etc...

I would object to a sig line that read "Skinheads unite!" or even "do the
forest a favor, plant a sierra clubber" or "pro choice is pro death" because
they all carry a message of hate. It has nothing to do with whether I agree
or not with that cause, but rather with the association of it with violence.
For example, "Support life, adopt!" would be just fine. Or "Womens rights
are right." If you want to propagate the Arian Nation put down "SWM seeking
blond blue eyed lady to start family."

Does that make sense? Sadly, I guess it is sort of like pornography. One
persons art...

But really it is about the feeling behind the message. If you really felt it
would do someone good to be told that they were stupid, you could say
something like "Hey, I like you, and I think you are a good guy; I wish you
all the best, but from what I can see, you just really don't have what it
takes to make it as an embedded engineer. Some people are just too stupid to
do this and it looks like you are one of them. I really think you would be
better off in a career as a plumbers assistant or helping on a sewage truck.
You can make good money and you don't have to be as technically gifted. I
really hope you aren't insulted, but you need to hear this loud and clear
before you waste a lot of time. You probably have a lot of other positive
attributes; hard worker, good looks, etc... And you can do well by focusing
on those."

But that should be said off list rather than in front of thousands of people
on an email list. I don't know, it seems easy to me.

---
James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin
.....jamesnewtonKILLspamspam@spam@piclist.com  1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com



> {Original Message removed}

2004\10\15@175505 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
May I know why you don't think this will work?

Rule by fear is something I would prefer to avoid.

---
James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin
jamesnewtonspamKILLspampiclist.com  1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com



> {Original Message removed}

2004\10\15@175752 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
Do please understand that I am not asking for moderation of ALL posts. Only
of newbie's (and only for a while) and of... Well... Olin, specifically.
Your posts would go right through.

I DON'T want to burden MIT with the bandwidth for an UNMOD channel.

---
James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin
.....jamesnewtonKILLspamspam.....piclist.com  1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com



> {Original Message removed}

2004\10\15@183128 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
I have no intention of moderating posts from other than newbie's and Olin.
Ok?

Again, I'm NOT looking to moderate your posts.

---
James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin
EraseMEjamesnewtonspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTpiclist.com  1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com



> {Original Message removed}

2004\10\15@184517 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face

>
>But really it is about the feeling behind the message. If you really felt it
>would do someone good to be told that they were stupid, you could say
>something like "Hey, I like you, and I think you are a good guy; I wish you
>all the best, but from what I can see, you just really don't have what it
>takes to make it as an embedded engineer.


So olins posts get scanned by a perl script which prepends this to "idiot" ?
:)

_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\15@220609 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
From: "Peter van Hoof" <pvhspamspam_OUTadelphia.net>
>I think the unmoderated channel is a great idea Byron
> I would most certainly be listening in on the regular list but value
> freedom of speech to the extreme ( that's what yioiu get when you grow up
> in the netherlands)
>
> Peter
>

We have to keep in mind MIT's bandwidth.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\15@220611 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
It is more that I feel it is not needed, than that it will not work.

Bob Ammerman

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Newtons Massmind" <@spam@jamesnewtonKILLspamspammassmind.org>
To: "'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.'" <KILLspampiclistKILLspamspammit.edu>
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 5:54 PM
Subject: RE: [OT] Looking for a few good... moderators


{Quote hidden}

>> {Original Message removed}

2004\10\16@001437 by Mike Singer

picon face
James Newton wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If you really felt it would do someone good to be told that they were stupid, you could say something like "Hey, I like you, and I think you are a good guy; &#8230; Some people are just too stupid to
do this and it looks like you are one of them. I really think you would be better off in a career as a plumbers assistant or helping on a sewage truck&#8230; "
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

And you'll get kicked off in a moment for getting a reply like mr_engendering_info's. The Olin's post was much less offensive.


Regards,
Mike.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
&#8230;
It's no good you getting angry
We must try to act our age
You're pursuing your convictions
Like some hermit in a cage

Well slowly Joseph well he lowered the rifle
And he emptied out the shells
Van Bushell he came towards him
He shook his arm and wished him well

He said now hey blind man that is fine
But I sure can't waste my time
So move aside and let me go my way
I've got a train to ride

Well Joseph turned around
His grin was now a frown
He said let me just refresh your mind
Your manners boy seem hard to find

Well there's two men lying dead as nails
On an East Virginia farm
_FOR CHARITY's AN ARGUMENT_
THAT ONLY LEADS TO HARM

-- Son Of Your Father - Elton John/Bernie Taupin

_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\16@005558 by Jinx

face picon face
> >I think the unmoderated channel is a great idea Byron
> > I would most certainly be listening in on the regular list but value
> > freedom of speech to the extreme

I have no objection to people speaking their minds - BUT is that a
forum either relevant to or to be provided by those that provide this
meeting place ? That is, this one here which I primarily use and want for
exchanging inforrmation about PIC micros and associated engineering

As far as those topics that fall under the general PIClist grouping are
concerned, there is no need or place for uncivility, flame wars or
whatever. The rules are quite clear about behaviour/language/posting.
If people want something a little more on the edge where they can
indulge in profanity, gossip and punch-ups they can start PIClistXreme

I have joined and left several other groups because they are such
godawful places. No direction, no moderation, open slather, and
frankly simply pathetic excuses for "discussions"



_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\16@014737 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Sat, Oct 16, 2004 at 05:55:23PM +1300, Jinx wrote:
> > >I think the unmoderated channel is a great idea Byron
> > > I would most certainly be listening in on the regular list but value
> > > freedom of speech to the extreme
>
> I have no objection to people speaking their minds - BUT is that a
> forum either relevant to or to be provided by those that provide this
> meeting place ? That is, this one here which I primarily use and want for
> exchanging inforrmation about PIC micros and associated engineering

Jinx,

We have an OT channel that talking about everything from rocketry to politics
to GOD. It's just natural that when you have a community the varied and yet
this close, the other topic of discussion are going to come up. I'm actually
proposing a true home for such discussion.

>
> As far as those topics that fall under the general PIClist grouping are
> concerned, there is no need or place for uncivility, flame wars or
> whatever. The rules are quite clear about behaviour/language/posting.
> If people want something a little more on the edge where they can
> indulge in profanity, gossip and punch-ups they can start PIClistXreme

But of course we still have them. The problem is not only what is said,
but how it's said, and how it's perceived. Which means that not only do you
have to moderate what you write, you also have to moderate based on the
perceptions of a potentially fickle audience.

I mean would we even be having this discussion if Olin had used the
word 'interesting' instead of 'dumber'?

>
> I have joined and left several other groups because they are such
> godawful places. No direction, no moderation, open slather, and
> frankly simply pathetic excuses for "discussions"

On the other hand a system with no relief valve eventually blows up
just like the PICLIST does with seemingly increasing frequency.

This proposed UNMOD channel would be invisible unless you specifically
subscribed to it. It would be a place to take topics that have gone
way off topic and the occasional funny or silly comment that in an open
forum could start a rumble. It'll aleviate the moderators of the task
of having to kick people out (unless they violate the traditional channels
of the list) or having personal moderators. It'll make their lives easier
because it'll curtail the silly traffic. It'll limit the silly tit for tat
discussions about non PIC non electronic topics that come up from time to
time. In fact this thread here would be a perfect candidate for the UNMOD
channel. But right now it's in OT because there's no other place for it
to go.

Just to repeat: UNMOD would be unmoderated. Everyone would be unsubscribed
to it. It needs to be server filtered if possible so that you never receive
UNMOD messages unless you specifically ask to subscribe to it.

I'm just proposing a solution to the same kinds of problems that I see
in the Linux newsgroups on USENET. There used to be a time where the trouble
makers would come through in waves. But not they are confined for the most
part to the Linux advocacy group, where they spend every day hurling
invectives against Linux advocates, and where said advocates engage in
a raging discussion on a daily basis. But because of it the other Linux
newsgroups are more clean and on topic.

Just some thoughts...

BAJ
_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\16@020621 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Fri, Oct 15, 2004 at 02:57:37PM -0700, James Newtons Massmind wrote:
> Do please understand that I am not asking for moderation of ALL posts. Only
> of newbie's (and only for a while) and of... Well... Olin, specifically.
> Your posts would go right through.
>
> I DON'T want to burden MIT with the bandwidth for an UNMOD channel.

Ah. So you did hear the request. Good. I'm still looking for the
answers to the technical questions:

1) If such a channel were set up would messages be filtered at the
server?

2) If (1) is true then can everyone account be setup to be unsubscribed
to that channel?

If both of these conditions are not achievable then it's probably
not worth the effort. OTOH if it can be done then it represents another
potential solution to the problem.

And I don't think personally that there is a bandwidth issue. We
already have a bunch of OT stuff as it is. UNMOD would simply be
a second hidden OT channel that would in fact take up some of the
bandwidth that OT is using already. All the interesting tidbits
that we see now that really have nothing to do with PICs or electronics
or anything even marginally related would now travel into UNMOD.
Think of it as splitting OT into PIC related OT and unmoderated OT.
Same bandwidth, or actually less since less people will be subscribed
to UNMOD. It'll serve as a relief valve for controversy, and will obviate
the need for the personal moderators.

Can anyone tell me about the technical potential first? Please?

BAJ
[Snipped the rest. Save the bandwidth.]
_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\16@021651 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
For the record and for the last time: I did NOT remove Olin as a result of
Mr. Engineering Info's response. I removed Olin because he said the guy was
stupid. Or that his comment was stupid. And that was the straw the broke the
camels back. Olin had been warned again and again.

Having said that, you're probably right...
... It is really hard to tell someone they are stupid without offending
them.

So let's just not do that ok?

---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2004\10\16@022906 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
Come on guys, half the time we can't get people to change the tags on
threads as things are. How are we going to get people to retag to UNMOD
before they say something offensive?

We have not had any need for moderation other than for some hot headed
newbie's and a very few crusty old engineers with grumpy tendencies.

I have never deleted anyone from the list for one or even two slips of the
tounge as long as they have something to offer other than questions. It
takes either a full on FU or a long string of put-downs over a period of
months. Months ok? And that was after many, many offlist and onlist
warnings.

BAJ, you can post without worrying about getting kicked off. At the very
least, I'm going to give an offlist warning before I do anything.

---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2004\10\16@031109 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> I mean would we even be having this discussion if Olin had used the
> word 'interesting' instead of 'dumber'?

Now that's an interesting question :-)


       RM


_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\16@092844 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Fri, Oct 15, 2004 at 11:16:35PM -0700, James Newtons Massmind wrote:
> For the record and for the last time: I did NOT remove Olin as a result of
> Mr. Engineering Info's response. I removed Olin because he said the guy was
> stupid. Or that his comment was stupid. And that was the straw the broke the
> camels back. Olin had been warned again and again.

Olin actually used the word dumbest. But the point is well taken.

BAJ
_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\16@095746 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Fri, Oct 15, 2004 at 11:28:50PM -0700, James Newtons Massmind wrote:
> Come on guys, half the time we can't get people to change the tags on
> threads as things are. How are we going to get people to retag to UNMOD
> before they say something offensive?

Because if they don't they get put out. Permanently. A promemently
posted, agreed to rule that everyone must adhere to. Because it's
policy.

>
> We have not had any need for moderation other than for some hot headed
> newbie's and a very few crusty old engineers with grumpy tendencies.

It's actually somewhat debatable. There are other threads that wander
through here that are really off topic. Not even close to being in the
realm of a microcontroller discussion list. They wax and wane without
comment because they don't rise to a level of irratation that sets
someone off. A perfect example is the state/church separation thread
of late where Lawrence Lile rightly asked the question if it was time
for this thread to die because it wasn't the least bit related to
PICs or electronics. He was right. However for the folks that are here
there's simply no other venue to continue having such a discussion.

>
> I have never deleted anyone from the list for one or even two slips of the
> tounge as long as they have something to offer other than questions. It
> takes either a full on FU or a long string of put-downs over a period of
> months. Months ok? And that was after many, many offlist and onlist
> warnings.
>

I know that. I'm looking at the bigger picture though. We've grown into
a community large enough that the off topic spillage could be construed
as excessive. But there's also enough off topic posts that are on point
enough that you need to get them in order to still learn about about
electronics and PICS. A explictly hidden channel can act as a safety
valve, as a separator between discussions that are near the primary
purpose of the list, and those where we're just communicating as a
community.

I know that the response to that is to simply take such discussions offlist.
But there isn't a real effective mechanism to communicate with a subset of
the list without using the list.

> BAJ, you can post without worrying about getting kicked off. At the very
> least, I'm going to give an offlist warning before I do anything.

I'm not worried about me. I'm simply trying to contribute ideas that makes
the list better for everyone.

BAJ
_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\16@095823 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Sat, Oct 16, 2004 at 08:02:19PM +1300, Russell McMahon wrote:
> >I mean would we even be having this discussion if Olin had used the
> >word 'interesting' instead of 'dumber'?
>
> Now that's an interesting question :-)

Exactly. And Russel I'm so offended! ;-)

BAJ
_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\16@102451 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Sat, 2004-10-16 at 00:14, Mike Singer wrote:
> And you'll get kicked off in a moment for getting a reply like
> mr_engendering_info's. The Olin's post was much less offensive.

OK, there appears to be something that people keep forgetting, so I will
keep reminding.

The decision to remove Olin was NOT influenced by the response of "Mr.
Engineering", the decision was made based SOLELY on the content of
Olin's post.

The response of "Mr. Engineering" was in my mind PROOF that the decision
that Olin had to go was correct, but it in NO way influenced the
decision.

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\16@104159 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Sat, 2004-10-16 at 01:47, Byron A Jeff wrote:
> I mean would we even be having this discussion if Olin had used the
> word 'interesting' instead of 'dumber'?

Ok, two facts here:

1. Aside from "Mr. Engineering", which I think all agree should have
been removed from the list, Olin has been the ONLY one recently removed.
I don't see why the removal of ONE SINGLE PERSON warrants a complete
shift in what the piclist is.

2. People seem to forget that if we look at simply the one message Olin
made he would NOT have been removed. The decision to remove Olin was
based on the messages from him within about a week of his removal. There
were several instances of "on the edge". On top of that Olin was already
on the limb. He came back without being invited, posted a VERY edgy
message to James, and then strutted his stuff.

A third fact, which I will not elaborate on, but of which the admins are
aware of, is the reason I feel so strongly about the decision still
being absolutely correct.

Now, I don't like talking about people behind their back, but in this
case I believe I had to to get the point across.

> Just to repeat: UNMOD would be unmoderated. Everyone would be unsubscribed
> to it. It needs to be server filtered if possible so that you never receive
> UNMOD messages unless you specifically ask to subscribe to it.
>
> I'm just proposing a solution to the same kinds of problems that I see
> in the Linux newsgroups on USENET.

Umm, OK, let's look at this, IMHO:

1. The piclist doesn't currently HAVE the problems of usenet, sure it
has some spats, but that's why the possibility of removal is there, if
you go to far, you're warned, if you continue, you're gone, VERY simply,
haven't had to even WARN anybody in quite a long time, so I think it's
working.
2. By allowing unfettered discussion without chance of removal we will
make the piclist CLOSER to usenet, especially with the spillover that
WILL occur.

Now, why is this better?



-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\16@105338 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Sat, 2004-10-16 at 09:57, Byron A Jeff wrote:
> Because if they don't they get put out. Permanently. A promemently
> posted, agreed to rule that everyone must adhere to. Because it's
> policy.

We have a policy, you tick us off you get an offlist warning, you
continue to tick us off, you're gone. Very simple, haven't had to even
give an offlist warning in quite a while.

{Quote hidden}

That was under the OT tag, it WAS OT, and there was no "ticking off"
that occurred, therefore it was permitted. If YOU didn't like that
thread so be it, in fact you should unsub yourself from OT, because that
sort of content has been set as acceptable in OT.

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\16@115459 by Peter van Hoof

picon face
[snip]
> 1. Aside from "Mr. Engineering", which I think all agree should have
> been removed from the list
[snip]

I don't , all are subject to flipping out at one time or another, none of us
can claim to be an exception to that.

[snip]
> if you go to far, you're warned, if you continue, you're gone
[snip]

In this case I don't think he got a warning.

Peter


_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\16@161129 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Sat, Oct 16, 2004 at 10:53:36AM -0400, Herbert Graf wrote:
> On Sat, 2004-10-16 at 09:57, Byron A Jeff wrote:
> > Because if they don't they get put out. Permanently. A promemently
> > posted, agreed to rule that everyone must adhere to. Because it's
> > policy.
>
> We have a policy, you tick us off you get an offlist warning, you
> continue to tick us off, you're gone. Very simple, haven't had to even
> give an offlist warning in quite a while.

Herbert, James, and everyone else who has participated.

I hear you. My idea is both technically infeasible and from two different
admins undesireable from a policy perspective.

It can't be done.

So let's drop it, consider the brainstoming session over, and move on.

This will be my last post on the topic.

Thanks to everyone, especially the list admins, for their commentary on
the topic.

BAJ
_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\16@170030 by Mike Singer

picon face
Olin's phrase:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
ROTFL! That's got to be one of the dumber comments
I've seen here recently.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


James's phrase:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Some people are just too stupid to do this and it
looks like you are one of them. I really think you
would be better off in a career as a plumbers
assistant or helping on a sewage truck. "
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Herbert Graf wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The decision to remove Olin was NOT influenced by
the response of "Mr.Engineering", the decision was
made based SOLELY on the content of Olin's post.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Herbert,

To gain consistency you should revoke either James's
recommendation on how to handle stupidity on list or
your statement that "the decision was made based
SOLELY on the content of Olin's post" because if
we assume that James's recommendation is OK, we are
to admit that Olin's phrase is OK too since Olin's
phrase is obviously less abusive.

Just my opinion.

Regards,
Mike.
_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\16@190258 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Sat, 2004-10-16 at 17:00, Mike Singer wrote:
> Herbert,
>
> To gain consistency you should revoke either James's
> recommendation on how to handle stupidity on list or
> your statement that "the decision was made based
> SOLELY on the content of Olin's post" because if
> we assume that James's recommendation is OK, we are
> to admit that Olin's phrase is OK too since Olin's
> phrase is obviously less abusive.

Mike, I'm not going to fall for your twisting of our words. I'm not sure
what you have against me, I've asked you before yet you've never
responded. Frankly, I don't care, your attempt to create a flame war on
this issue will not happen.

> Just my opinion.

Perhaps for your sake you should keep it to yourself when it deals with
OT matters. I will not mention in public, in respect of you, what
actions we have taken in the past, but remember some parallels with
another poster.

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\16@190917 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Sat, 2004-10-16 at 11:54, Peter van Hoof wrote:
> [snip]
> > 1. Aside from "Mr. Engineering", which I think all agree should have
> > been removed from the list
> [snip]
>
> I don't , all are subject to flipping out at one time or another, none of us
> can claim to be an exception to that.

True, but how many times has another on this list "lost it" as quickly?

If you aren't capable of controlling yourself in at least a small
amount, you will be treated accordingly.

> [snip]
> > if you go to far, you're warned, if you continue, you're gone
> [snip]
>
> In this case I don't think he got a warning.

You are correct, he didn't which is something I believe I mentioned.

That said, the policy is definitely adaptable, it's rare, but it happens
(like gravelings going on vacation...).

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\16@194439 by Jinx

face picon face
> Herbert's PIC Stuff:
> http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

Did anybody ever identify themselves in the Master's photos ?

_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\16@201034 by hilip Stortz

picon face
approximately the rules i try to use, though i note that some are easily
inflamed by any view contrary to their own, and with some even more so
when presented with logic or an example.  in any case, should i offend
any one, i would ask them to have the courtesy to keep it off list if
they feel compelled to respond to one of my sigs, particularly if they
feel compelled to point out how stupid my views are or what a threat i
am to the electoral process or to accuse me of sedition (ironically for
calling for impeachment, a function of government!).  and i promise to
make spelling errors the spell checker misses, and to accidentally allow
it to correct things that are not wrong, an unabridged dictionary is on
my want list.

James Newtons Massmind wrote:
>
> Well, the big rule for me is related to what effect it has, which is not a
> fair rule at all, I understand, but the goal is to have stimulating,
> informative exchanges without anyone being offended.
>
> Now, what will offend someone is impossible to guess, of course. But it is
> possible to look at probabilities. Saying something that is controversial is
> more likely to cause a problem, but more important is the way it is said.
> For example "..that was stupid!" compared to "...that is unlikely." or
> "...are you sure about that?"
--------

--
"We cannot simply suspend or restrict civil liberties until the War of
Terror is over, because the
War on Terror is unlikely ever to be truly over," Judge Gerald Tjoflat
wrote for the three-member
court. "September 11, 2001, already a day of immeasurable tragedy,
cannot be the day liberty
perished in this country." <www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/10/16/protesters.terrorism.ap/index.html>
_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\17@010847 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
Yes, mike, I already said I was probably wrong and there just isn't any good
way to call somebody stupid.

---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2004\10\17@024420 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> James's phrase:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Some people are just too stupid to do this and it
> looks like you are one of them. I really think you
> would be better off in a career as a plumbers
> assistant or helping on a sewage truck. "
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I rather thought that that would have been unlikely to have passed the
admins' serenity test.
It's clearly and specifically calling someone stupid and doing it in a
"smart" manner. If I saw this I would consider that the poster was trying to
be objectionable and clever. I'd personally find it far more offensive that
Olin's much discussed comment. (He was calling the comment dumb. The above
is calling the poster stupid AND suggesting that they are only fit for a low
grade job (AND also denigrating certain worthy occupations into the bargain
:-))

Such a comment wouldn't bother me overly personally were it ever directed at
me as I'd realise that it had almost certainly been made by someone whose
mother wore army boots :-)


       RM







_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\17@111704 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
Yes, you are right, I was wrong. How many times do I have to say this.

---
James.



{Quote hidden}

_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\17@164923 by Mike Singer

picon face
Herbert Graf wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Herbert,
>
> To gain consistency you should revoke either James's
> recommendation on how to handle stupidity on list or
> your statement that "the decision was made based
> SOLELY on the content of Olin's post" because if
> we assume that James's recommendation is OK, we are
> to admit that Olin's phrase is OK too since Olin's
> phrase is obviously less abusive.

Mike, I'm not going to fall for your twisting of our words. I'm not sure
what you have against me, I've asked you before yet you've never
responded. Frankly, I don't care,&#8230;
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

---   If you don't care &#8211; why you've asked? :-)

Hey, Herb, stop talking about me having something against you. I have
nothing against you. On the contrary, I respect your efforts to rule
the list very much. I googled with the Mr. Engineering Info's famous
phrase and then tracked some threads with the phrase until I nearly
vomited. If even 1% of this were allowed on list under any tag, I'd
unsubscribe immediately. You are doing great job, Herbert, I do admit
it, seriously.

Having said this, can I ask you: You really want only positive
feedback? I did not "twist of our words", I just quoted James's and
Olin's phrases. (James corrected it later, I missed it out, sorry).

I respect James very much, I know holding PICList costs him money.
Does this mean I have no rights to point out some inconsistency in his
posts? No emotions, just technical pointing out. I did not discuss if
it's OK to remove Olin from the list. It's not my job since I rejected
to admin the list. (he-he, if I were to admin the list, Herbert would
look like the most tolerant person on the Globe:-)

> your attempt to create a flame war on this issue will not happen.

Again, no emotions, just technical pointing out.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Just my opinion.
Perhaps for your sake you should keep it to yourself when it deals with
OT matters. I will not mention in public, in respect of you, what
actions we have taken in the past, but remember some parallels with
another poster.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Make all public, no problems.

Again, I respect your efforts to rule the list and James' to hold it
very much. Thank you.

Mike.

_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\17@165647 by olin_piclist

face picon face
An admin wrote anonymously via the list server:
> Your subscription is to be moderated by a team of (hopefully)
> impartial moderators. Posts which are unacceptable will rejected.
>
> I truly hope you can accept that and I do look forward to seeing your
> brilliant and usually very helpfull answers on the list again.

I don't really accept this kind of sensorship, and will refrain from
responding to technical posts until this issue is resolved in a more
suitable way, such as proposed at the end of this message.

I do insist that any messages I post with this setup not be edited.
Either block the entire message or let it pass thru whole.

I am sending this single message for two reasons.  First, I have
tried to establish private communications, both via email and by
phone, with admins but have not been successful.  This is apparently
the only channel open to me.  Second, I see things being said about
me and my situation that I feel are incorrect or at least can lead
some to the wrong impression.  Since others are allowed to talk about
this subject, I don't see how I can be denied the chance to defend
myself and make my own case.

Before responding to particular statements made here, I want to
comment on my response to Engineering Info.  When I first read his
post I actually laughed out loud at my monitor.  My response was in
this spirit of letting everyone see the humor.  In hindsight, I
should have thought more about it being insulting to Engineering
Info, but at the time I guess I was laughing too hard.  Yes, that was
a mistake.  I screwed up.

Since coming back to the list in July, I had been careful not to
cross the line, at least where I thought it was.  I probably posted a
few hundred messages, and none of them elicted any feedback from any
admin except the last one.  I still believe the admins' response was
excessively harsh, and that there had been no previous evidence such
a post was out of line.


James Newton wrote:
> For the record and for the last time: I did NOT remove Olin as a
> result of Mr. Engineering Info's response. I removed Olin because he
> said the guy was stupid. Or that his comment was stupid. And that was
> the straw the broke the camels back.

I did say the statement was "dumb", but said nothing about the
person.  This is an important distinction you yourself made on 17
July 2004:

 > If you make ONE disparaging remark about someone's PERSON as a result
 > of their POST, especially if it is their first, for no reason other
 > than it being stupid, I'll hit the button without warning, thought,
 > or concern.

> Olin had been warned again and again.

I'm not sure where this comes from.  After coming back to the list in
July, I received the single general warning quoted above.  There were
no other warnings of any kind, general or in response to specific
posts, on list or off.

> I have never deleted anyone from the list for one or even two slips
> of the tounge as long as they have something to offer other than
> questions. It takes either a full on FU or a long string of put-downs
> over a period of months. Months ok? And that was after many, many
> offlist and onlist warnings.

Again, I don't feel this reconciles with my experience.  If you did
send me off list warnings, I honestly did not receive them.  I could
only find (and recall) the single on list warning quoted above.


Herbert Graf wrote:
> Tell me, aside from Olin and Mr. Eng, who else has been given a
> warning for "edgy" behaviour on the PICLIST recently (make it 6
> months)?
>
> I know, checking my logs, the number of private warnings is very very
> small.

I was only on the list for 2 of those 6 months, but this agrees with
what I've seen.  However, then please don't say that I was given
"many many offlist and onlist warnings".

> Therefore, the problem is very very small.

So then a less heavy handed means of dealing with it could be
appropriate.  Please see my suggestion at the end of this message.

> 1. Aside from "Mr. Engineering", which I think all agree should have
> been removed from the list, Olin has been the ONLY one recently
> removed.  I don't see why the removal of ONE SINGLE PERSON warrants a
> complete shift in what the piclist is.

I don't either.  I think the reason there is so much discussion about
my getting removed is that many perceived it as unfair.  Note there
is little discussion about Engineering Info getting removed, whom I
think everyone agrees blantantly and deliberately crossed the line.

> 2. People seem to forget that if we look at simply the one message
> Olin made he would NOT have been removed.

So there WAS a different standard applied.

> The decision to remove Olin
> was based on the messages from him within about a week of his
> removal. There were several instances of "on the edge".

What instances?  This is the FIRST time I've received comment on any
such messages.  Why didn't you SAY something at the time.  All this
unpleasentness could have been so easily avoided.  I wasn't trying to
push any limits, and wasn't aware of being "on the edge".  How
exactly was I supposed to know this?

> On top of
> that Olin was already on the limb. He came back without being
> invited,

And what other option to get back on the list was there?  I hadn't
been invited back in 5 months, and didn't ever expect to be.

> A third fact, which I will not elaborate on, but of which the admins
> are aware of, is the reason I feel so strongly about the decision
> still being absolutely correct.

This is very troublesome to me!  I know the PIClist isn't a court of
law, but being convicted of violating a secret rule doesn't sound
fair in any context.  Even if you don't want to explain this
publicly, why don't I have the right to know?  How am I or anyone
else supposed to live up to a rule they don't even know exists, let
alone what it is!!!?

> Now, I don't like talking about people behind their back, but in this
> case I believe I had to to get the point across.

I don't feel this was talking behind my back at all.  In any case, I
think much of the trouble regarding this issue could have been
avoided with a little more communication.  I am glad that some of
your thoughts are now in the open, and hope you will continue to let
us know what you think in the future.


And now for my suggestions:

The admins' stated objective in policing the list is to keep the
signal to noise ration high, and to eliminate flame wars and reduce
bandwidth talking about admin decisions like someone getting kicked
off.  I agree with these objectives.  Since they are volunteers, the
overall workload on the admins must also be taken into account in
deciding on a mechanism to meet these objectives.

The primary tool for dealing with objectionable posts lately has been
simply deleting the poster.  I submit that this has not worked very
well when measured against the objectives stated above.  Yes, it is a
simple method in the immediate term, but leads to much wasted
bandwidth and admin time responding to it when the action is
perceived (rightly or wrongly) to be unfair by many list members.

Therefore, a better solution:

1)   Clear communication by the admins when they see something they
    don't like on the list.  A message when a post is "on the edge"
    may seem like a small bother at the time, but it will more than
    pay back in fewer bigger bothers later.  It is better to comment
    about a message that is not actually out of line but close, than
    to be forced to deal with one over the line later.

2)   Warnings should be public, not off list.  One public warning
    gives 2000 people a better idea of what is acceptable.  This in
    itself will reduce the need for future warnings.

3)   When someone does cross the line, delete them but **for a fixed
    time**.  I suggest appropriate times to be a few days to a
    month, depending on the level of the offense as judged by the
    admin doing the deleting.  For example, a deliberate FU would
    get a month, something like my post calling a statement dumb
    (but not the person) maybe a week.  This recognizes that nobody
    is perfect and anyone can slip up on occasion, but still allows
    the admins to make a strong statement to objectionable posts.

    I imagine the list server does not have a mechanism to delete
    someone for a specific time period, but that is not necessary.
    When someone is deleted, they are told they are not allowed to
    come back for XX days.  If they do, then they can be permanently
    banned.  However I doubt that would ever happen.  If I had been
    deleted and told I couldn't come back for a week, I would have
    accepted it quietly.  In the end it's not that big a deal, but I
    would not want to be banned for a week on a regular basis, and
    would be more careful to make sure it didn't happen.

    Since this is also a more proportional and non-permanent
    approach, people will be less upset if they don't think it's
    fair.  After all, the problem will fix itself in a while.

While this may seem like I'm asking the admins to do more work, it is
actually less work in the aggregate.

The current case is a good example.  I made one post pointing out
something was dumb.  Mr EI responded with a blatant obscenity.  There
were a few posts telling EI that he was out of line, but those died
down when it became clear he was delted.  If I had not been deleted,
a few more posts would probably have told me I was being a bit rude
to EI, and then that would have died down too.  What caused the large
amount of messages, and therefore admin time to read and sometimes
respond to them, was my getting deleted.  I think this was because
many perceived it as unfair.  If I had called EI an idiot and asked
if his mommy knew he was using the 'puter again, I doubt there would
have been much discussion about the issue since most would have felt
my getting deleted was justified.

Granting that the admins have the right to set the rules, the ruckus
was therefore caused by many people having an incorrect perception of
the rules coupled with the severity of the punishment.  My
suggestions above would have avoided the ruckus in several ways,
while still protecting the list from unwanted posts.  First, a
warning from Herbert to whatever post he felt was close to but not
over the line would have given everyone a better idea of where the
line was.  This would have eliminated much discussion if I later did
cross over that line.  Second, I would have known I was getting near
the line and would have tried to avoid crossing it.  Third, even if I
did post the same message without thinking and some people still felt
it was unfair I got deleted, they wouldn't be all that upset knowing
that the whole incident would be over in a week.  I doubt there would
have been much if any discussion on the matter.

In the above scenario, the list would have been protected, a strong
statement would still have been made about the objectionable post,
little if any discussion would have ensued, and much less admin time
and aggrevation would have been spent.  In other words, I think it
would have been a win for all.  I honestly don't see a downside.


On another issue, forcing some people and newcomers to be filtered
thru moderators is a bad idea.  First, that type of "babysitter"
attitude is insulting and I can't imagine anyone putting up with it.
Like I said, I'm only posting this one message because I have no
other means, and will not answer technical questions under these
conditions.  Second, it will really put off newcomers.  If I was new
to the PIClist, and was told "we're assigning you a baby sitter until
we're convinced you're not a jerk", I probably would have thought to
myself "F this", and walked away.  Third, the list server delays are
annoying enough as it is without moderator delays added on top of
that.

Anyway, this is meant as a sincere and serious suggestion, and I hope
it will be considered as such.

My apologies to whatever moderator had to read thru all this blah
blah.

*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com
_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\17@173852 by Mike Singer

picon face
> Yes, you are right, I was wrong. How many times do I have to say this.

I missed out your first reply (trying to accommodate to Gmail), sorry.
Perhaps I should have chosen some other form of my posting. I had no
intention to tease Herbert, really.

Mike.
_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\17@181406 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Yes, you are right, I was wrong. How many times do I have to say this.

My apologies - I only need to be told i'm right once (usually) :-)
Seriously though - I wasn't meaning to be rubbing it in - I hadn't realised
that you had commented in this. Unlike the poor gardworking list admins I
don't have to read every post so I don't see everything that's said.


       Russell


_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\17@183916 by Jinx

face picon face
> 1)   Clear communication by the admins when they see something they
>      don't like on the list

> 2)   Warnings should be public, not off list.

> 3)   When someone does cross the line, delete them but **for a fixed
>      time

That sounds fair for everybody. Although I think the vast majority
of people are already civil and responsible (not to imply by that that
Olin generally isn't, but on occassion he has been castigated for
replies that Basil Fawlty might refer to as "a trifle brusque")

Unfortunately for Mr Engineering Info, who DID claim in a rush of
enthusiasm that there are at least 54 weeks in a year (which I thought
was a real Kodak moment), he missed any humour in Olin's reply and
went ape-sh  . He could have blushed and kicked himself out of sight
or responded with a "d'oh, dopey me" but chose instead to......... In
capitals too. "Ow, my freakin' eyes"

3) is used widely in sports. The sin-bin (time-out), yellow card (first
warning), and red card (take an early shower)

If Olin's suggestions are adopted, he seems to acept that one day
he may be hoist by his own petard

_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\17@185821 by Robert L Cochran

flavicon
face
Jinx wrote:

>...for Mr Engineering Info,
>
I'm testing a Fedora Core 3 beta, and I'm pretty sure that the posts by
"Engineering Info" are on my Evolution email client which currently
cannot open any mail folders due to a bug. That slams the door on access
to my own email folders till said bug is fixed.  I started using Mozilla
mail as a backup email client, and only now am I reading about the
exploits of Engineering Info. What a shame I can't yet read his posts...

_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\17@202642 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Sun, Oct 17, 2004 at 06:58:15PM -0400, Robert L Cochran wrote:
> Jinx wrote:
>
> >...for Mr Engineering Info,
> >
> I'm testing a Fedora Core 3 beta, and I'm pretty sure that the posts by
> "Engineering Info" are on my Evolution email client which currently
> cannot open any mail folders due to a bug. That slams the door on access
> to my own email folders till said bug is fixed.  I started using Mozilla
> mail as a backup email client, and only now am I reading about the
> exploits of Engineering Info. What a shame I can't yet read his posts...
>

There are several  searchable archives. One is at http://www.piclist.com which has
most every message ever posted to the list. Another can be found here:

http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/piclist

I looked it up early in the discussion. The even happened on September 17th.
So take alook for the posts titled "Finding a chip" or similar.

BAJ
_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\17@232621 by James Newton, Host

face picon face
Olin, how much time did you spend, collecting quotes out of context,
building your case,  to put out that one email?

I don't have that kind of time. I have a list to run. I'll not argue the
point further.

This list is going to be civil or it is going to be gone.

Olin will post through the moderator or not post.

Newbies will be moderated for the first few posts and anyone who has been on
the list for a while can post directly.

Regular list members will not be moderated, but the admins will read all the
posts (thank you Herb, Josh, Dan) and if someone repeatedly posts hateful,
rude, name calling messages and ignores OFFLIST warnings they will be put on
the moderated list. They can unsub on their own.

Other than that, business as usual, and I would realy REALLY appreciate it
if we could just try this out for a while. If it doesn't work, I'll dump it
on my own. Point out problems offlist, directly to me? Please?

Remember when I forced the topic tags onto the list? Remember the hue and
cry? And have we had flame wars on this list like we did before? Have we all
forgotten what it was like before? Do you remember all the gurus who left?
Do you see that all but a few are back? And new people have come and stayed,
at least in part because we don't flame here.

I would also appreciate it if we could not discuss this anymore on list. If
you must, you must, (sigh) but if you want to try to change my mind, why not
email me directly and save some bandwidth?

---
James. RemoveMEjamesnewtonspamTakeThisOuTpiclist.com



> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-bouncesEraseMEspam.....mit.edu
> [EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspammit.edu] On Behalf Of Olin Lathrop
> Sent: 2004 Oct 17, Sun 13:57
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: Re: [OT] Looking for a few good... moderators
> Importance: Low
>
<SNIP>


_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\17@235052 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Oct 17, 2004, at 8:26 PM, James Newton, Host wrote:

> Newbies will be moderated for the first few posts

What sort of posts from newbies do you want filtered out?  Just uncivil
posts?  We frequently complain about newbies posting questions that
would
easily be answered by reading the archives, FAQs, or datasheets, but
then
I also observe that the resulting discussions frequently unearth new
data
and ideas that are quite useful..

I would be willing to be a moderator, if we decide to do that...
I am neither for nor against this proposal itself.  In a sufficiently
perfect world, moderation is unnecessary; in a sufficiently imperfect
world, it doesn't work...

BillW

_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\17@235339 by Robert L Cochran

flavicon
face
James Newton, Host wrote:

>Olin, how much time did you spend, collecting quotes out of context,
>building your case,  to put out that one email?
>
>I don't have that kind of time. I have a list to run. I'll not argue the
>point further.
>
>This list is going to be civil or it is going to be gone.
>
>Olin will post through the moderator or not post.
>  
>
Whew! I wouldn't do this sort of thing to the list members on my own
mailing lists. I admin 2 of those, and have yet to ban a member or
censor a post. There just isn't the need or reason. I think this is the
same as inflicting 50 lashes with a cat'o'nine tails on "Olin".

Hardly appropriate for one remark. Heavy handed, man, way heavy handed.

I guess everyone on this list had better fear and tremblingly obey James!

Bob Cochran
Greenbelt, Maryland, USA


_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\18@001902 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Sun, 2004-10-17 at 23:53, Robert L Cochran wrote:
> James Newton, Host wrote:
>
> >Olin, how much time did you spend, collecting quotes out of context,
> >building your case,  to put out that one email?
> >
> >I don't have that kind of time. I have a list to run. I'll not argue the
> >point further.
> >
> >This list is going to be civil or it is going to be gone.
> >
> >Olin will post through the moderator or not post.
> >  
> >
> Whew! I wouldn't do this sort of thing to the list members on my own
> mailing lists. I admin 2 of those, and have yet to ban a member or
> censor a post. There just isn't the need or reason. I think this is the
> same as inflicting 50 lashes with a cat'o'nine tails on "Olin".

Consider yourself lucky then. Let me say though that Olin has generally
been VERY helpful on the list, in fact it was his amazing depth of
knowledge of PICs and EE in general that made banning him the first time
so hard for us. Think of it as karma.

> Hardly appropriate for one remark. Heavy handed, man, way heavy handed.

You obviously are not aware of the history of the piclist and the
contributions of some members. I will just say that it wasn't one remark
that generated that response.

> I guess everyone on this list had better fear and tremblingly obey James!

Nope. In all the years I've been reading the piclist there have been
very few disturbances that went that far. As long as you don't produce
remarks that belittle people for no other reason then to make yourself
feel better, you probably have nothing to worry about.

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\18@002458 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Sun, 2004-10-17 at 16:49, Mike Singer wrote:
> Herbert Graf wrote:
> ---   If you don't care &#8211; why you've asked? :-)

Because others on the list might, and perhaps it'll finally reveal why
you act the way you do to me.

Your messages off list in the past were quite "interesting", and ample
proof that you have some sort of grudge against me.

> Hey, Herb, stop talking about me having something against you.
You do. I won't bother going back and digging up that dirt.

> Having said this, can I ask you: You really want only positive
> feedback? I did not "twist of our words", I just quoted James's and
> Olin's phrases. (James corrected it later, I missed it out, sorry).

You "quoted" stuff WAY out of context, causing the meaning of my words
to imply something other then what they did. I don't like it when
newspapers do that, I don't like it when politicians do that, and I
don't like it when you do that.

> > your attempt to create a flame war on this issue will not happen.
>
> Again, no emotions, just technical pointing out.

Right then, please keep it that way.

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > Just my opinion.
> Perhaps for your sake you should keep it to yourself when it deals with
> OT matters. I will not mention in public, in respect of you, what
> actions we have taken in the past, but remember some parallels with
> another poster.
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> Make all public, no problems.

Again, I'm not going to dig up dirt. But I will say, to those who might
be interested, that you were also banned from the list at one time, we
allowed you back. I won't go any further since I see no reason to
possibly smudge your name any further. You have since then not caused
much of a problem.


-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\18@002711 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
And may I know what lists you admin so I can subscribe and be the first you
have to ban?

<GRIN>



---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2004\10\18@005021 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Sun, 2004-10-17 at 16:56, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> An admin wrote anonymously via the list server:
> > Your subscription is to be moderated by a team of (hopefully)
> > impartial moderators. Posts which are unacceptable will rejected.
> >
> > I truly hope you can accept that and I do look forward to seeing your
> > brilliant and usually very helpfull answers on the list again.
>
> I don't really accept this kind of sensorship, and will refrain from
> responding to technical posts until this issue is resolved in a more
> suitable way, such as proposed at the end of this message.

I'm not going to "pollute" this list any more past this message.

So, with that said, I will ask one question:

Olin, why do you think the piclist should be changed to accommodate you?

I know you know alot, I know you are willing to offer your time to help
others on the list, I know you use the list to further your own
projects.

But why should the list accommodate ONE person?

> I do insist that any messages I post with this setup not be edited.
> Either block the entire message or let it pass thru whole.

You can insist whatever you want, the moderators will be the ones
choosing. That said, I think their only choice is to block the message
outright, modifying the post would IMHO be simply a waste of time.

> Before responding to particular statements made here, I want to
> comment on my response to Engineering Info.  When I first read his
> post I actually laughed out loud at my monitor.  My response was in
> this spirit of letting everyone see the humor.  In hindsight, I
> should have thought more about it being insulting to Engineering
> Info, but at the time I guess I was laughing too hard.  Yes, that was
> a mistake.  I screwed up.

Thank you Olin. It takes a certain person to be able to admit something
like that. Most would just shirk the issue completely.

> Since coming back to the list in July, I had been careful not to
> cross the line, at least where I thought it was.  I probably posted a
> few hundred messages, and none of them elicted any feedback from any
> admin except the last one.  I still believe the admins' response was
> excessively harsh, and that there had been no previous evidence such
> a post was out of line.

Very true, we didn't warn you again, we felt saying you had been given a
"final warning" would be enough. That said, that final message wasn't by
itself enough, it was a string of messages before that one that led to
that last message being the proverbial straw.

{Quote hidden}

Very correct, but do you think that the warnings from BEFORE didn't
count anymore? They did. Plus, even if they didn't, was there something
about James' message that WASN'T clear? "If you make ONE disparaging
remark..." sounds pretty clear to me.

{Quote hidden}

You were given many warnings, both on list and off list, before the
first ban, plus the VERY CLEAR warning after you came back uninvited.

Fine, Olin, a question: how many warnings do you think a person deserves
to get?

> > Therefore, the problem is very very small.
>
> So then a less heavy handed means of dealing with it could be
> appropriate.  Please see my suggestion at the end of this message.

Why? If there is only a VERY small percentage causing a problem, why
should a complete shift in the way the list is run be necessary, why
isn't removal just the more efficient solution?

Remember, everyone on this list is donating their time, why ANY of us
should dedicate more time to handle ONE person is beyond my
comprehension.

> > 2. People seem to forget that if we look at simply the one message
> > Olin made he would NOT have been removed.
>
> So there WAS a different standard applied.

Nope, it's just that it wasn't that single message that caused the
second removal. It was an addition of some earlier messages. On top of
that your prior removal and uninvited return, plus James' VERY clear
warning did mean the scale was set a little different for you.

> > The decision to remove Olin
> > was based on the messages from him within about a week of his
> > removal. There were several instances of "on the edge".
>
> What instances?  This is the FIRST time I've received comment on any
> such messages.  Why didn't you SAY something at the time.  

I can't speak for the others, but my reason was that would have taken
time, and frankly with the warning as clear as James' I didn't see the
need.

> All this
> unpleasentness could have been so easily avoided.  I wasn't trying to
> push any limits, and wasn't aware of being "on the edge".  How
> exactly was I supposed to know this?

Olin, you have NEVER responded for long to warnings I've given you off
list. Yes, for a week or two after the warning you seemed to be "nicer",
but eventually you regressed. I simply decided that with the VERY CLEAR
warning James gave, I wasn't going to waste my time.

> How am I or anyone
> else supposed to live up to a rule they don't even know exists, let
> alone what it is!!!?

Well with me, the reason is the "rule" isn't solid, it changes with the
phase of the moon, the percentage of caffine in my blood, and how
annoyed I am... That said, even with this "ellusive" rule, no-one else
(save Mr. Eng) came ANYWHERE near breaching it.


> Therefore, a better solution:
>
> 1)   Clear communication by the admins when they see something they
>      don't like on the list.  A message when a post is "on the edge"
>      may seem like a small bother at the time, but it will more than
>      pay back in fewer bigger bothers later.  It is better to comment
>      about a message that is not actually out of line but close, than
>      to be forced to deal with one over the line later.

You WERE given a clear warning right at the beggining. I don't see WHY I
should increase my workload to accomodate you.

> 2)   Warnings should be public, not off list.  One public warning
>      gives 2000 people a better idea of what is acceptable.  This in
>      itself will reduce the need for future warnings.

See Olin, this is just more proof of you not "getting it". WHY should I
embarrass a person in front of 2000 people when, historically, a private
warning achieved the goal? YOU have been the only one where my warnings
DIDN'T end up working.

> 3)   When someone does cross the line, delete them but **for a fixed
>      time**.  

Why? So few have "crossed the line", and of those you are the only one
I'd actually consider bringing back. Again, WHY should the list change
to accomodate ONE person?

> On another issue, forcing some people and newcomers to be filtered
> thru moderators is a bad idea.  First, that type of "babysitter"
> attitude is insulting and I can't imagine anyone putting up with it.

Seems people are "putting up with it". Remember Olin, it's YOUR attempts
at rejoing the list multiple times, each time changing you address,
which resulted in James changing how things are done. My solution was
far less "friendly".

> Like I said, I'm only posting this one message because I have no
> other means, and will not answer technical questions under these
> conditions.  

No problem. If you feel like contributing in the future the terms for
you have been clearly presented.

> Second, it will really put off newcomers.  

We'll see, so far things look like they're working well.

> If I was new
> to the PIClist, and was told "we're assigning you a baby sitter until
> we're convinced you're not a jerk", I probably would have thought to
> myself "F this", and walked away.  

Then obviously the PICLIST doesn't offer enough to you to warrant a
small amount of "bady sitting". I'm sorry that's the case, but so be it.

> Third, the list server delays are
> annoying enough as it is without moderator delays added on top of
> that.

The list server delays are annoying, the moderator delays will be only
for a short while for new posters so will have very little impact in the
long wrong. Most new posters only lurk anyways so it won't affect them
much.

> My apologies to whatever moderator had to read thru all this blah
> blah.

Well, hopefully this will be end of this thread. It's taken me 25
minutes to respond to this message. See what I mean about wasting my
time...

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\18@044934 by Win Wiencke

flavicon
face
<Robert L Cochran censures James Newton's asking Olin to chill a bit >

> Hardly appropriate for one remark. Heavy handed, man, way heavy handed.
>
> I guess everyone on this list had better fear and tremblingly obey James!

James is doing a lot of work for free -- being a moderator yourself, I
imagine you know how much work it is.  It must take a special sort of person
to do it!

I lack the skill, time and fireproof underwear to even contemplate being a
moderator, so out of respect and appreciation I'll obey the moderator's
pleas, however worded, to conduct myself in a civil manner on the list.

Being a member of our species James shares our faults, but he really let us
wander off topic more than others I'm on.  I'm on some lists that are quite
strict about staying on topic.  I'd kinda hate to lose the flexibility to a
new moderator -- the way threads evolve makes wading through the traffic a
bit more fun.

Win Wiencke
Image Logic Corporation





_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\18@051653 by Dan Smith

face picon face
On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 04:49:39 -0400, Win Wiencke <RemoveMEwinEraseMEspamEraseMEslycurves.com> wrote:
> Being a member of our species James shares our faults, but he really let us
> wander off topic more than others I'm on.  I'm on some lists that are quite
> strict about staying on topic.  I'd kinda hate to lose the flexibility to a
> new moderator -- the way threads evolve makes wading through the traffic a
> bit more fun.

The vast majority of traffic on the list will continue to be
unmoderated.  The only posts that will be moderated are those from new
subscribers (only the first few posts) and those from subscribers who
have pushed the boundaries in the past.

The Piclist currently has almost 1500 subscribers.  Only a handful of
those are being moderated, and of those most are new subscribers.

Dan
List Admin #6
_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\18@082532 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
>> Yes, you are right, I was wrong. How many times do I have to say this.
>
> My apologies - I only need to be told i'm right once (usually) :-)
> Seriously though - I wasn't meaning to be rubbing it in - I hadn't realised
> that you had commented in this. Unlike the poor gardworking list admins I
> don't have to read every post so I don't see everything that's said.

What almost everybody seems to have missed is the last paragraph of James's
message, the one where he says: "But that should be said off list rather
than in front of thousands of people on an email list."

Besides the fact that he later took it back as a whole, there it was
already clearly stated that this was a suggestion for off list, not on
list...

Gerhard
_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\18@094109 by Koebel, Alen

flavicon
face
> Newbies will be moderated for the first few posts and anyone who has
> been on the list for a while can post directly.

Sine our IT department discourages subscribing to mailing lists because
of the traffic (if everyone did it...), I drop in and out of the list,
subscribing only when I have a specific question (I check the archives
first). Will I be a "newbie" every time I resubscribe?
_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\18@115812 by Koebel, Alen

flavicon
face
My apologies if this is a repeat post, but our building lost power moments
after I sent this the first time, so I'm not sure it got out of the
building!

> Newbies will be moderated for the first few posts and anyone who has
> been on the list for a while can post directly.

Since our IT department discourages subscribing to mailing lists because
of the traffic (if everyone did it...), I drop in and out of the list,
subscribing only when I have a specific question (I check the archives
first). Will I be a "newbie" every time I resubscribe?
_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\18@131629 by Peter Johansson

flavicon
face
Koebel, Alen writes:

> Sine our IT department discourages subscribing to mailing lists because
> of the traffic (if everyone did it...), I drop in and out of the list,
> subscribing only when I have a specific question (I check the archives
> first). Will I be a "newbie" every time I resubscribe?

Erm?  Does your IT department not allow you to surf the Web?  You'll
generate more bandwidth downloading a single web page with graphics
than several days worth of traffic even on a moderately high volume
mailing list.

"On the web, a picture had better be worth at least a thousand words
because it will take at least that long to download." (attribution
unknown)

-p.
_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\18@132059 by Lawrence Lile

flavicon
face
You could subscribe to the PIClist using a Yahoo or Hotmail account.  This would accomplish two things, first it would not fill your business inbox with traffic, and second protect your business inbox from spam.  One of these days I should do this, myself.  

-- Lawrence Lile, P.E.
Electrical and Electronic Solutions
Project Solutions Companies
http://www.projsolco.com


> {Original Message removed}

2004\10\18@135617 by Koebel, Alen

flavicon
face
Peter Johansson writes:

> Koebel, Alen writes:

>> Since our IT department discourages subscribing to mailing lists because
>> of the traffic (if everyone did it...), I drop in and out of the list,
>> subscribing only when I have a specific question (I check the archives
>> first). Will I be a "newbie" every time I resubscribe?

> Erm?  Does your IT department not allow you to surf the Web?  You'll
> generate more bandwidth downloading a single web page with graphics
> than several days worth of traffic even on a moderately high volume
> mailing list.

I didn't say it made *sense.* But that was the IT department's
explanation when I asked about this policy. I'd have better luck
fighting city hall. Maybe I'm supposed to kneel and bow in their
general direction. ;->
_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\18@135736 by Dan Smith

face picon face
On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:41:27 -0400, Koebel, Alen
<RemoveMEakoebelspam_OUTspamKILLspamchristiedigital.com> wrote:
> Sine our IT department discourages subscribing to mailing lists because
> of the traffic (if everyone did it...), I drop in and out of the list,
> subscribing only when I have a specific question (I check the archives
> first). Will I be a "newbie" every time I resubscribe?

Hi Alen,

The simplest way around this would be for you to set your subscription
to nomail rather than unsubscribing each time.  You would then be a
full-time list member able to post whenever you wanted, but you would
receive no emails from the list.  When you wanted to receive messages
again, just change back from nomail to mail.

Dan
_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\18@140222 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Mon, 2004-10-18 at 09:41, Koebel, Alen wrote:
> > Newbies will be moderated for the first few posts and anyone who has
> > been on the list for a while can post directly.
>
> Sine our IT department discourages subscribing to mailing lists because
> of the traffic (if everyone did it...), I drop in and out of the list,
> subscribing only when I have a specific question (I check the archives
> first).

You don't have to unsub, just set your account to nomail, as long as
it's set as nomail you won't see any list traffic.

> Will I be a "newbie" every time I resubscribe?

Yup, but I'm sure a quick email to one of us would correct that. TTYL

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\18@141343 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
Yes. I would recommend just setting the "no mail" bit rather than unsubbing.


---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2004\10\18@141840 by Koebel, Alen

flavicon
face
Dan Smith wrote:

> The simplest way around this would be for you to set your subscription
> to nomail rather than unsubscribing each time.  

Darn, I should have remembered that. It's in the FAQ at http://www.piclist.com.

(Curiously, the "new" PICList page I was referred to when I tried to
resubscribe from the old one -
mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
- doesn't point to the FAQ, or anything else from http://www.piclist.com.
Is http://www.piclist.com simply out of date?)  
_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\18@145419 by Peter L. Peres

picon face

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004, Koebel, Alen wrote:

>> Newbies will be moderated for the first few posts and anyone who has
>> been on the list for a while can post directly.
>
> Sine our IT department discourages subscribing to mailing lists because
> of the traffic (if everyone did it...), I drop in and out of the list,
> subscribing only when I have a specific question (I check the archives
> first). Will I be a "newbie" every time I resubscribe?

Can you subscribe to 'digests' from home ? ;-)

Peter
_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2004\10\18@163907 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
Ah! Thanks for pointing that out. I've updated that, but the pointer to the
(incomplete) mailman version of the list archive appears to be automatically
added.

Dan, I couldn't see anyway to get rid of that link... Nor did I see a way to
delete that archive. The only related option is to stop archiving but
apparently that doesn't remove the existing archive, it just doesn't add any
more to it. Did you see anything? If not, I guess we will end up asking
Karen... Hate to do that though.

---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2004\10\18@181914 by Shawn Mulligan

flavicon
face
Re: It's not Olin's first offense,
>> You obviously are not aware of the history of the piclist and the
>> contributions of some members. I will just say that it wasn't one remark
>> that generated that response.

For what's it's worth, here's my synopsis so far:

It's very important to Olin for everyone to know how intelligent he is,
which in fact he is. On the list this manifests itself in two ways:

a) By providing excellent responses to technical questions and,
b) by belittling or insulting people publicly, sometimes in a
  witty manner and sometimes in a nasty way.

The moderators are happy with (a) behavior but fed up with (b) behavior.
Olin's actions insist that if he is going to contribute in an (a) manner we
must "all" accept some (b) behavior. Unfortunately, while all are grateful
for the (a) behavior, most are offended by the (b) personality, however,
some share the humor.

He's like a dinner guest that compliments the host's food with kind words
90% of the time and a loud, rough belch the other 10% of the time. No matter
how high the verbal praise, you just don't want him in your house again.

The moderators have gone the limit for this man, figurative bending over
backwards. They have stated their conditions for his remaining on the list
and in a recent post he has stated his. What right does he have to tell them
under what conditions he will enter their house? It's time for Olin to grow
up and start playing right.

____________________________________________

2004\10\18@203645 by olin_piclist
face picon face
James Newton wrote:
> Olin, how much time did you spend, collecting quotes out of context,
> building your case, to put out that one email?

I put some effort into it because I was trying to present a well
reasoned case why doing things a little differently would be better
for ALL of us, which includes reducing the workload on you.  I was
hoping you would see it as a sincere effort to resolve this issue to
everyone's benefit, and would at least give it some consideration.
I'm sorry that my attempt seems to have irritated you further.  That
was NOT my intention.  James, I'm not your enemy and am not trying to
make trouble for you, although I sometimes feel you treat me that
way.

> Newbies will be moderated for the first few posts and anyone who has
> been on the list for a while can post directly.

What problem is this intended to address?  I don't remember a rash of
problem posts from newbies.  It seems to me like a lot of extra work
for the admins without much return.  What am I missing?  (That's not
a rhetorical question.  I really would like to understand your
thoughts on this.)

Also, how does a newbie graduate from moderated to unmoderated?  Is
this done automatically by number of posts, or a time limit?  Do you
do this manually when it "feels" right?  Does someone have to
explicitly ask for this, then the record gets reviewed and decision
made?


Herbert Graf wrote:
> Olin, why do you think the piclist should be changed to accommodate
> you?
>
> I know you know alot, I know you are willing to offer your time to
> help others on the list, I know you use the list to further your own
> projects.
>
> But why should the list accommodate ONE person?

I didn't ask for that.  The suggestions I made were intended to be
equitable to all and SAVE time for the admins.

> Plus, even if they didn't, was there
> something about James' message that WASN'T clear?

But I **did** stay within the bounds of James' warning:

> If you make ONE disparaging remark about someone's PERSON as a
> result of their POST, especially if it is their first, for no
> reason other than it being stupid, I'll hit the button without
> warning, thought, or concern.

I did NOT make any remark about the person.  Even though I was not
paying the attention I should have been, I was at least careful not
to do that.

I stayed away from the list for a number of months.  When I came back
I made sure not to do any of the things that you objected to
previously.  I was back for two months and probably a few hundred
posts.  None of them were contrary to James' warning.  Yes, in a
moment of excessive mirth I did make a mistake, and I'm sorry about
that.  Then I was off the list again for a few weeks.  So what does
it take to get past this?

> Why? If there is only a VERY small percentage causing a problem, why
> should a complete shift in the way the list is run be necessary, why
> isn't removal just the more efficient solution?

I didn't think I was proposing a complete shift.  The only difference
I proposed for the admins is sending warnings publicly instead of
privately, and telling people "You have been banned for XX days",
instead of "You have been banned".

> Remember, everyone on this list is donating their time, why ANY of us
> should dedicate more time to handle ONE person is beyond my
> comprehension.

Again, I'm sorry it came accross that way, but that was not at all
what I was proposing.  I tried to explain how my proposal would SAVE
you time.

> > 3)   When someone does cross the line, delete them but **for a fixed
> >      time**.
>
> Why? So few have "crossed the line", and of those you are the only
> one I'd actually consider bringing back. Again, WHY should the list
> change to accomodate ONE person?

Not one person.  I tried to point out how this would have saved you
considerable time.  We wouldn't be having this discussion if I had
been banned for a a week or two.

Anyone can make a mistake.  If EI was told he was banned from the
list for a month, do you really think he'd say what he said again?
As a list member and the target of his remark, I would have no
problem with him being allowed back.  Life's too short for grudges.
If nothing else, it's too much trouble to keep track of whom you're
supposed to have what grudge against ;-)

> Seems people are "putting up with it". Remember Olin, it's YOUR
> attempts at rejoing the list multiple times, each time changing you
> address, which resulted in James changing how things are done.

I only ever subscribed to the list with a different address once, and
posted exactly one message.  It was strictly technical with nothing
anyone could possibly find offensive.  You guys weren't responding to
my attempts at off list communication, so that was to find out if I
would get deleted even for that.

> Then obviously the PICLIST doesn't offer enough to you to warrant a
> small amount of "bady sitting". I'm sorry that's the case, but so be
> it.

Please put yourself in my shoes for a moment.  Would you not find
that insulting and degrading if done to you?

You seem to be viewing this as an adversarial relationship.  It feels
at this end like you are going out of your way to make things
difficult for me.  Yes, I made a little mistake, and I'm sorry.  You
guys came down on me very hard.  It's been a few weeks, may I crawl
out from under the ton of bricks now?  I'd really like to get along
with you guys.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com
____________________________________________

2004\10\18@215328 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face

> -----Original Message-----
> From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspamspammit.edu
> [EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspamspamspamBeGonemit.edu] On Behalf Of Olin Lathrop
> Sent: 2004 Oct 18, Mon 17:37
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: Re: [OT] Looking for a few good... moderators
> Importance: Low


> ...[I] am not trying to make trouble for you, although I
> sometimes feel you treat me that way.

You HAVE made a lot of trouble for me <GRIN>, but I don't assume you
intended to! It's nothing personal. You just have a way of doing things that
conflicts with some people, me included. What I'm trying to do is find a way
to "take the good and leave the bad behind" (that is bad from my point of
view) because I really do feel you are a brilliant engineer and an asset to
the list. But in the past, so many people have complained about you and I've
had such distaste personally for SOME of your comments, that I've had to do
something.

>
> > Newbies will be moderated for the first few posts and
> anyone who has
> > been on the list for a while can post directly.
>
> What problem is this intended to address?

<GRIN>
"Olin: ...that was the stuipidest... "
"engineringinfo: XXXX YOU XXXXXXX!"

He would have been moderated at that point and so his post would have been
rejected. As a result, we would not have needed to kick him off the list. In
time, he would either have gotten used to the list and been released, or
remained moderated. Who knows? He could have ended up being a valueable list
member (although apparently very thin skinned) and now we have lost him.
Right?

> Also, how does a newbie graduate from moderated to
> unmoderated?  Is this done automatically by number of posts,
> or a time limit?  Do you do this manually when it "feels"
> right?  Does someone have to explicitly ask for this, then
> the record gets reviewed and decision made?

Those are all good suggestions. We are working that out now.


> I did NOT make any remark about the person.  Even though I
> was not paying the attention I should have been, I was at
> least careful not to do that.

We could argue for a long time about the difference between saying that a
post was stupid and the implication that the person was stupid...

...but how about this? I'll back off and say ok, maybe you didn't
technically violate the rules. Come back on the list. Give it a try again
and lets see how it goes.

> I stayed away from the list for a number of months.  When I
> came back I made sure not to do any of the things that you
> objected to previously.  I was back for two months and
> probably a few hundred posts.  None of them were contrary to
> James' warning.  Yes, in a moment of excessive mirth I did
> make a mistake, and I'm sorry about that.  Then I was off the
> list again for a few weeks.  So what does it take to get past this?

Lets call it "over" now, ok? Thank you for understanding the effect of a
careless slip. If you really understand that and are trying not to make that
sort of trouble, then I can put it into the "hey, he is human too" column
and get on with life.

> I didn't think I was proposing a complete shift.  The only
> difference I proposed for the admins is sending warnings
> publicly instead of privately...

Absolutly NOT. NO! NO! NO! And that is the entire crux of the matter. The
only public warnings I'll send will be to ask that people stop posting on a
thread. Those must be public because they are a warning to all the people
who MIGHT otherwise post.

This is the point of difference between you and I, Olin and I'm worried that
you still don't see it. You feel it is appropriate to leverage the power of
public embarrasment to influence people. I don't. For MOST people, it
triggers flame wars, outbursts, loss of temper, etc... Doesn't it feel that
way to you?

I feel bad for whatever embarrisment I have caused you in all this. I have
broken my own rules with you in the past (and now) and I don't like doing
it. The only reason I'm discussing it publicly is because so many other
people have jumped into it and because you have expressed no concern for
your public exposure.


> and telling people "You have
> been banned for XX days", instead of "You have been banned".

Let us try moderation first ok? Then if that does't work, I'll keep your
sugestion in mind.

> Not one person.  I tried to point out how this would have
> saved you considerable time.  We wouldn't be having this
> discussion if I had been banned for a a week or two.

It didn't seem to work the first time, but perhaps that was just a
misconception on my part.

> Anyone can make a mistake.  If EI was told he was banned from
> the list for a month, do you really think he'd say what he said again?
> As a list member and the target of his remark, I would have
> no problem with him being allowed back.  Life's too short for grudges.
> If nothing else, it's too much trouble to keep track of whom
> you're supposed to have what grudge against ;-)

That may very well be true. I'll keep it in mind if the moderation thing
doesn't work out.

> Please put yourself in my shoes for a moment.  Would you not
> find that insulting and degrading if done to you?

Yes. I'm sorry, and that is not my goal here. I want you to be a full member
of the list. I want to benefit from your excellent advice, but I really
don't want to have to burn the cycles required to deal with another of these
blow ups.

Yes please, do let us try to get along.

Just don't publicly humiliate anyone else and I won't feel the need to do
anything, much less remove or moderate you or do anything else that might be
painfull for either of us.


____________________________________________

2004\10\18@223604 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Mon, 2004-10-18 at 20:36, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> > Seems people are "putting up with it". Remember Olin, it's YOUR
> > attempts at rejoing the list multiple times, each time changing you
> > address, which resulted in James changing how things are done.
>
> I only ever subscribed to the list with a different address once, and
> posted exactly one message.  It was strictly technical with nothing
> anyone could possibly find offensive.  You guys weren't responding to
> my attempts at off list communication, so that was to find out if I
> would get deleted even for that.

James has responded to most of your message and I agree with most of
what he said.

However, to this point let me respond: WHY didn't you just ASK if you
could come back? Why did you "challenge" us to remove you again?

Personally I didn't respond to your messages since I've wasted MORE then
enough time (and I'm still wasting time right now by writing this
response) dealing with the fallout of a very small number of your
messages. I didn't PERSONALLY want you back, more so because I had
become VERY tired of dealing with you and therefore decided to ignore
you.

> > Then obviously the PICLIST doesn't offer enough to you to warrant a
> > small amount of "bady sitting". I'm sorry that's the case, but so be
> > it.
>
> Please put yourself in my shoes for a moment.  Would you not find
> that insulting and degrading if done to you?

Absolutely.

> You seem to be viewing this as an adversarial relationship.  It feels
> at this end like you are going out of your way to make things
> difficult for me.  Yes, I made a little mistake,

Actually most then one, but I'm not going to count.

>  and I'm sorry.  

Most people aren't capable of apologizing, it gives me a glimmer of hope
to see you do so.

> You
> guys came down on me very hard.  

In your opinion. The way I look at it, we were holding back for a LONG
time, only because you did contribute as much as you did.

We had complaints from other posters about you for quite a while before
the first ban. We issued several warnings and made things very clear
with you. Perhaps it was "hard" but really, what choice did we have?
Suggestions didn't work, peer response didn't work, warnings didn't
work, what other choice was there?

Now, everyone, please let's just move beyond this nastiness.



____________________________________________

2004\10\18@223642 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
Whoopee!

The great PICLIST feud may have come to an end :)

Really, I want to compliment both Olin and James for their calm, controlled
handling of the current situation. Hopefully we can move forward from here
to a better PICLIST.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

____________________________________________

2004\10\19@011709 by steve

flavicon
face
> > I didn't think I was proposing a complete shift.  The only
> > difference I proposed for the admins is sending warnings
> > publicly instead of privately...
>
> Absolutly NOT. NO! NO! NO! And that is the entire crux of the matter.
> The only public warnings I'll send will be to ask that people stop
> posting on a thread. Those must be public because they are a warning
> to all the people who MIGHT otherwise post.
>
> This is the point of difference between you and I, Olin and I'm
> worried that you still don't see it. You feel it is appropriate to
> leverage the power of public embarrasment to influence people. I
> don't. For MOST people, it triggers flame wars, outbursts, loss of
> temper, etc... Doesn't it feel that way to you?

James,

Since this is an engineering influenced list, I'd have to say that your method
goes against the general engineering concept of using feedback to create
stability.

What you propose is akin to having a quality control department located in
another building and have them that simply throw away the dud products.

In my experience, the lists that are the most useful have an active and open
dictatorial figure whos word is law. "This thread stops now" and "You are out of
line" is unambiguous, non-insulting and sets the boundaries for all to see.

Steve.






____________________________________________

2004\10\19@154818 by Mike Singer

picon face
Steve wrote:
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
In my experience, the lists that are the most useful have an active and open dictatorial figure whose word is law. "This thread stops now" and "You are out of line" is unambiguous, non-insulting and sets the boundaries for all to see.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That's not enough. To gain usefulness we must - force all members to equalize their level of sense of humor (zero is
ideal &#8211; nobody would be offended and precious bandwidth would be
saved)
- worship the "dictatorial figure"; each post's footer should contain
a slogan kind of "Long live The Great Dictator"; Each article should
start with the phrase "As was pointed out by our beloved The Great
Dictator&#8230;"
- any negative feedback should be treated as a mortal threat to the
dictatorship&#8230;

---
&#8230; enough, brothers, that's not that pleasant reminiscences &#8230;

Mike.

Seriously, folks, life is short. If some people have zero level of
sense of humor, why should we deprive ourselves of pleasure to
communicate freely without that stupid fear that some offence-mania
person would interpret it as a mortal personal attack.
I'm not trying to justify Olin, that's not my job. I'm just trying to
ask, heck with the dictatorship, let do work to our internal human
common sense.
Better than eat each other, let's try to figure out _real_ reasons why
the list is degrading and how to help it. Personally, I vote for
dedicated tag to address the issue.

___________________________________________

2004\10\19@183113 by Mike Singer

picon face
Herbert Graf wrote:

> > > Just my opinion.
> > Perhaps for your sake you should keep it to yourself when it
> > deals with OT matters. I will not mention in public, in respect
> > of you, what actions we have taken in the past, but remember
> > some parallels with another poster.
> >
> > Make all public, no problems.
>
> Again, I'm not going to dig up dirt. But I will say, to those
> who might be interested, that you were also banned from the
> list at one time, we allowed you back. I won't go any further
> since I see no reason to possibly smudge your name any further.


Herbert, you are very much respected person on list. 1500 members and
zillions non-members read your posts, posts are getting archived and
are searchable forever.

You said that I was involved in some sort of dirt since I was deleted
from the list on 21-june-2004. This is rather strong statement
considering the auditorium, current and future.

Strong statements need strong proof. Could you please elaborate
publicly a bit further what dirt I was involved in. You can't just
state that. Such dirty hints are usually considered as being much more
offensive than well discussed both phrases.

Best Regards.
Mike.
____________________________________________

2004\10\19@193218 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
{Quote hidden}

Worship of the dictator should be from heart felt love for his great sacrifice and concern for us - much as well all worship James now :-)

It may be worth noting in passing that Mike lives in (the) Crimea (of Florence Nightingale fame amongst many other things), not so very long ago part of the USSR, and his memories of "The Great Dictator" are informed by perspectives that most of us would be glad never to have had.



       Russell McMahon


___________________________________________

2004\10\19@204611 by p.cousens

flavicon
I would love to know the point of this and I'm probably speaking for
1499 list members and the zillions of non-members

Make all public, no problems ?
I would prefer RM asking us all to pray again than this

Your comments are for Herbert and his for you why not take this of list?

PC

{Original Message removed}

2004\10\20@001055 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Tue, 2004-10-19 at 18:31, Mike Singer wrote:
> Herbert Graf wrote:
>
> You said that I was involved in some sort of dirt since I was deleted
> from the list on 21-june-2004. This is rather strong statement
> considering the auditorium, current and future.

Actually I never said that, I said this:

> Hey, Herb, stop talking about me having something against you.

You do. I won't bother going back and digging up that dirt.
____________________________________________________________

I said you have had something against me, and I wasn't going to dig up
dirt. No mention of "dirt" AFTER you were removed from the list.

> Strong statements need strong proof. Could you please elaborate
> publicly a bit further what dirt I was involved in. You can't just
> state that. Such dirty hints are usually considered as being much more
> offensive than well discussed both phrases.

Fine Mike, I really wanted this to end with my message, but at this
point you've left me little choice, sorry about this.

First off, some of these messages are from my sent folder. My hard drive
crashed early last year and as a result some of my folder were lost.

So, first off, a private message to you about a post you made:
> {Original Message removed}

2004\10\20@001715 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Tue, 2004-10-19 at 18:31, Mike Singer wrote:
> Herbert Graf wrote:
>
> You said that I was involved in some sort of dirt since I was deleted
> from the list on 21-june-2004. This is rather strong statement
> considering the auditorium, current and future.

Actually I never said that, I said this:

> Hey, Herb, stop talking about me having something against you.

You do. I won't bother going back and digging up that dirt.
____________________________________________________________

I said you have had something against me, and I wasn't going to dig up
dirt. No mention of "dirt" AFTER you were removed from the list.

> Strong statements need strong proof. Could you please elaborate
> publicly a bit further what dirt I was involved in. You can't just
> state that. Such dirty hints are usually considered as being much more
> offensive than well discussed both phrases.

Fine Mike, I really wanted this to end with my message, but at this
point you've left me little choice, sorry about this.

First off, some of these messages are from my sent folder. My hard drive
crashed early last year and as a result some of my folder were lost.

So, first off, a private message to you about a post you made:
> {Original Message removed}

2004\10\20@001831 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Wed, 2004-10-20 at 00:10, Herbert Graf wrote:
> On Tue, 2004-10-19 at 18:31, Mike Singer wrote:

Doh, sent this one too early by mistake, please ignore this first
message, I had part of the message in the wrong order which made things
look worse then they were. Sorry about that.

____________________________________________

2004\10\20@152835 by Mike Singer

picon face
All right, Herbert, there is no need on further elaboration.
I wanted only this statement:

"No mention of "dirt" AFTER you were removed from the list"

because, as I thought, some might conclude the opposite from:

> Again, I'm not going to dig up dirt. But I will say, to those
> who might be interested, that you were also banned from the
> list at one time, we allowed you back. I won't go any further
> since I see no reason to possibly smudge your name any further.

Best Regards,
Mike.


> > You said that I was involved in some sort of dirt since I was deleted
> > from the list on 21-june-2004. This is rather strong statement
> > considering the auditorium, current and future.
>
> Actually I never said that, I said this:
> > > Hey, Herb, stop talking about me having something against you.
> > You do. I won't bother going back and digging up that dirt.
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> I said you have had something against me, and I wasn't going to dig up
> dirt. No mention of "dirt" AFTER you were removed from the list.
____________________________________________

More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 2004 , 2005 only
- Today
- New search...