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'[OT] List of problematic companies to do business '
2010\12\07@190630 by enkitec

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    A list of Asian companies doing scams, frauds and other problematic business:

    http://www.hkinventory.com/public/ReportedCompanyResult.asp

    Mark Jordan

2010\12\07@200857 by Vitaliy

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enkitec@gmail.com wrote:
>     A list of Asian companies doing scams, frauds and other problematic
> business:
>
>     www.hkinventory.com/public/ReportedCompanyResult.asp
>
>     Mark Jordan

Last I heard, Ukraine, Italy, Spain, and USA weren't part of Asia. :)

Vitali

2010\12\07@202727 by PICdude

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Quoting Vitaliy <spam_OUTpiclistTakeThisOuTspammaksimov.org>:

> Last I heard, Ukraine, Italy, Spain, and USA weren't part of Asia. :)
>
> Vitaliy
> --


Are you sure about the USA?  ... you obviously haven't been to a store  in the U.S. in some time then. :)

More interestingly to me, that USA company is a few miles from me.  Ack!

2010\12\07@233041 by RussellMc

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>     A list of Asian companies doing scams, frauds and other problematic
> business:
>
>     http://www.hkinventory.com/public/ReportedCompanyResult.asp

They COULD fall in that category - but it's essentially a list of
companies that somebody else had problems with AND the issues could go
both ways.

cf http://www.hkinventory.com/public/Home.asp

___________

At the risk of having people take turns beating me up, I'll note that
what I'd value is a list of *reputable* Asian companies that
known/traceable/reputable  people/companies have done business with
and had ongoing good experiences with. In some industry areas these
can be rare enough that finding them is a major part of doing
successful business.

Also "reputable" needs to be defined. What is acceptable or not in one
culture / business sphere / country / ... will be quite different in
others (and is).



                   Russell

2010\12\08@090328 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 11:30 PM 07/12/2010, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Yes. On the 'hobby' level purchasing front, I have had a couple
China-based suppliers (I believe) deliberately ship me defective
products recently. Off eBay, and neither is still
selling, so telling others won't help. Only $120 or so total, so
it's just annoying and a big waste of time. Reputation and track
record over time (not just feedbacks because many will give feedback
when something arrives and before they've had a chance to thoroughly
check something out).

The downside of what you suggest is precisely what you said in the
final sentence of your first paragraph. Once you (as a business person)
find a reliable supplier, you want to keep it close to the chest because
it's a core part of the business, and you've already paid the price,
usually many, many, thousands or tens of thousands of dollars, of
discovering which suppliers were less than fully reliable.

Perhaps there is a business opportunity there for a subscription-based
system that is not freely accessible, but it would have to be seen to
be immune to corruption.

>Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
.....speffKILLspamspam@spam@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

2010\12\08@203105 by Vitaliy

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Spehro Pefhany wrote:
> Perhaps there is a business opportunity there for a subscription-based
> system that is not freely accessible, but it would have to be seen to
> be immune to corruption.

Kind of like Consumer Reports for Chinese companies?

ImportGenius has a trade map feature that graphically shows the supply chain for a company. So if your competitors aren't anonymizing their imports, you can see where they get their stuff and presumably if there are multiple shipments, the company is reputable.

They "leak" some of the info to get people to subscribe, for example:

http://www.importgenius.com/importers/compaq-computer-corp.html

If finding a good supplier is worth tens of thousands of dollars, their subscription fees start looking quite reasonable.

Vitaliy

2010\12\08@212641 by RussellMc

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> If finding a good supplier is worth tens of thousands of dollars,  ...

Tens?
He said tens of thousands ?
Where, where ...

:-)

2010\12\08@223204 by Vitaliy

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RussellMc cried:
> Tens?
> He said tens of thousands ?
> Where, where ...


Spehro said two posts ago:
> it's a core part of the business, and you've already paid the price,
> usually many, many, thousands or tens of thousands of dollars, of
> discovering which suppliers were less than fully reliable.

2010\12\08@234842 by RussellMc

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> RussellMc cried:

He did indeed.

> > Tens?
> > He said tens of thousands ?
> > Where, where ...

> Spehro said two posts ago: ..

I should have put a :-) on that.
Or worded it

    "Only TENS of thousands ... ?  Where, where  ... "

:-)

If someone could (and would) provide a reputable, competent (by normal
meanings of the words)  supplier or suppliers and throw in an honest
competent half competitively priced manufacturer in a field of choice,
in ... then it would be an utter bargain in manufacturing volumes if
priced at tens of thousands of dollars US .

My number one rule for manufacturing in ... is "You have to be there !!!".
"Being there" in an adequate manner over an extended period will cost
you many tens of thousands of dollars (even if you subsist as frugally
as I have been known to on some occasions in ... ).

My number 0 rule is ... :-).
Ask offlist if interested



             Russel

2010\12\09@074327 by Olin Lathrop

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RussellMc wrote:
> My number one rule for manufacturing in ... is "You have to be there
> !!!". "Being there" in an adequate manner over an extended period
> will cost
> you many tens of thousands of dollars (even if you subsist as frugally
> as I have been known to on some occasions in ... ).

Maybe if you have very high volumes such that you still come out ahead with
the small price advantage after paying for being there, this is worth it.
For most of us, that isn't worth it.

Instead, you can use a manufacturer that isn't trying to get away with
whatever they can, is in part of the world where the cost can still be low,
and is good at communicating.  I've had good experiences with Djula.  He's
pobably done a dozen or so builds for us by now, both for our own products
and for our customers thru us.  I have never been to Novi Sad or Serbia and
have never met anyone from his organization or even talked to them.  All
communication has been via email, and things have worked out well.

I have had things made in China, and it's a different process.  Like Russell
said, you have to be much more personally envolved.  The unit price is a bit
less in China, but unless your volumes are very high, it doesn't make
economic sense.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\12\09@094118 by RussellMc

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> RussellMc wrote:

> > My number one rule for manufacturing in ... is "You have to be there
> > !!!".

Olin said:

> Maybe if you have very high volumes such that you still come out ahead with
> the small price advantage after paying for being there, this is worth it.
> For most of us, that isn't worth it.*

Yes. I agree completely.
By "being there" I mean having a person who is competent  in your
product technically, has authority to act on your behalf up to a
sensibly high level, and who utterly is acting on your behalf and
nobody else's and they need to be present and involved whenever
anything relevant to producing your product is happening. This person
could be a 'national' or a furriner from a company specialising in
such things. Or it could be you. However you achieve it they must be
your eyes, hands, mouth and brain.

It may be that there are organisations and people who could handle
this without 'being your person', but its not my experience so far
across a moderate number of factories and associated companies. My
suggestion that there appears to be something fundamentally different
in the way which business is done compared with "the west" (Include
Serbia in that :-) ) has been met with various degrees of scepticism
and the implication that I just need to learn to communicate better
While that's true :-) - I'm so far not convinced that my basic premise
is totally unfounded..

* fwiw I recently managed 1+ week in China for $US2000 all up incl
airfares, 4* hotel, meals and internal travel. That was exceptionally
cheap due to a special air fare - add say $US500 to that usually. Note
no allowance has been made in that for cost of visitor.  So $1/unit at
2500 volume, 10 cents at 25,000 volume. 2.5 cents/unit at 100,000
volume. Certainly is volume dependant.

> Instead, you can use a manufacturer that isn't trying to get away with
> whatever they can, is in part of the world where the cost can still be low,
> and is good at communicating.  I've had good experiences with Djula.  He's
> pobably done a dozen or so builds for us by now, both for our own products
> and for our customers thru us.  I have never been to Novi Sad or Serbia and
> have never met anyone from his organization or even talked to them.  All
> communication has been via email, and things have worked out well.

I have noted your ongoing comments over several years and (mentally)
filed  them away for future reference.

> I have had things made in China, and it's a different process.  Like Russell
> said, you have to be much more personally envolved.  The unit price is a bit
> less in China, but unless your volumes are very high, it doesn't make
> economic sense.

Aye.


     Russell

2010\12\09@095443 by Olin Lathrop

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RussellMc wrote:
> * fwiw I recently managed 1+ week in China for $US2000 all up incl
> airfares, 4* hotel, meals and internal travel.

It sounds like you left out the cost of your time, which should actually be
the significant cost.  Let's say $125/hour x 8 hours/day x 5 days = $5000..
More if your "week" was a week there and didn't include the day or so travel
time at each end.  From here it would be more like two days at each end, but
I'm being generous since you're closer.

In any case, your $2000 figure is way low and should be more like $7000 -
$10000.  That's 10 cents cost per unit on a 100,000 lot run.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\12\09@101038 by RussellMc

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> RussellMc wrote:
>> * fwiw I recently managed 1+ week in China for $US2000 all up incl
>> airfares, 4* hotel, meals and internal travel.

> It sounds like you left out the cost of your time, which should actually be
> the significant cost.

Yes.
That's what I meant by

> . Note, no allowance has been made in that for cost of visitor.

If any such costs are part of the project already, they have to be
allowed for but may/should  already have been included in the
costings.
I was noting the additional cost of being THERE as opposed to being
HERE. In your case HERE (USA) is  fine when THERE is Serbia. Being
HERE has the great advantage of being able to spend what time is
needed on the project then walk out and go home or work on another
project etc. Being there doesn't allow that but usually provides lots
of things to point cameras at :-). Also THERE allows a number of
related activities which allow you to amortise travel costs. [[Like
visiting people who have  copied your product** and sitting in their
conference room while they explain it to you :-) ]]. ** Whether such
copying is legal or moral is moot - and not something liable to be
solved in this lifetime by mere engineers. (Whose laws and whose
ethics do you apply, and why?)


2010\12\09@142608 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 09:40 AM 09/12/2010, you wrote:

> > I have had things made in China, and it's a different
> process.  Like Russell
> > said, you have to be much more personally envolved.  The unit
> price is a bit
> > less in China, but unless your volumes are very high, it doesn't make
> > economic sense.
>
>Aye.

Well, there are a number of Chinese companies who do good business
in one-offs (for example, the creation of architectural models used
by developers), so I wouldn't say that volume of product has to be high.

There does have to be enough dollars to interest both sides, and it
has to fit the business models on both sides. IME, most Chinese PCBA
companies who are able to do short runs are not into exporting. Bring
them the parts and pick up the boards (and pay in cash) and they can
do it. Not very practical for those on another continent, but practical
enough if you happen to work a subway ride from the mainland. Those that
are into exporting are mostly interested in big volumes or perhaps
pricey prototypes preceding production.

>Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
speffspamKILLspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

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