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'[OT] Lifter design'
2004\09\21@215927 by Herbert Graf

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On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 21:20, Jinx wrote:
> > Nope, but in this case, if it were indeed as "world changing" as the
> > person claims the plans WOULD be out there
>
> Well, plans and descriptions are out there - they aren't exactly secret.
> As I mentioned, I've had detailed plans for many years

Exactly. The plans have been out there, why isn't one of these devices
making power in everybody's back yard? TTYL

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2004\09\21@222059 by Jinx

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> Exactly. The plans have been out there, why isn't one of these
> devices making power in everybody's back yard? TTYL

That's a fair question, and one for which I have no answer. As I said,
it does surprise me that the idea seems to have stagnated. I've never
got around to making one to see for myself. DePalma could be right,
he could be wrong, and I've no intention of presenting myself as the
N Machine poster-boy

I'm sure that energy industry goons wouldn't spirit me away in the dead
of night for threatening their economic base. Stories of alternate energy
enthusiasts "mysteriously" disappearing are either urban myth or explanable
for quite normal and unrelated reasons. After all, hit squads don't turn up
with baseball bats at the home of anyone with a windmill or solar
installation

Do they ?

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2004\09\22@001253 by Jinx

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> "A: As of 04/2004, no proven F/E device exists. Hundreds of amateurs
> are hotly pursuing anything which could lead to success. There are several
> FREE ENERGY PRIZES, but so far nobody has won any of them."
>
>  From http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/fefaq.html#plans

That's not to say it won't happen in the future. AFAIK the X-Prize hasn't
been claimed yet either but it will. It's simply a matter of getting it
right

Personally I'd put free energy somewhere between the X-Prize and
unclaimed rewards for proof of life-after-death

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2004\09\22@021601 by Emil Johnsen

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> > "A: As of 04/2004, no proven F/E device exists. Hundreds of amateurs
> > are hotly pursuing anything which could lead to success. There are several
> > FREE ENERGY PRIZES, but so far nobody has won any of them."
> >
> >  From http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/fefaq.html#plans
>
>That's not to say it won't happen in the future. AFAIK the X-Prize hasn't
>been claimed yet either but it will. It's simply a matter of getting it
>right

I only intended to refute the claim that plans for such devices exist and
are available. (Please look at the text i quoted.)

It is misleading to use the X-Prize as an analogy. It is clearly possible
to fly into space, making the X-Prize, as you say, simply a matter of
getting it right. Inventing a device that produces more energy than it
consumes may contradict the laws of nature. If that is the case it is
impossible and nothing can make it work.


--
Emil Johnsen

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2004\09\22@051634 by Russell McMahon
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> Inventing a device that produces more energy than it consumes may
> contradict the laws of nature. If that is the case it is impossible and
> nothing can make it work.

A currently highly popular postulate is that the universe invented itself
from utterly nothing creating its "laws" along with itself in the process.
While I find that slightly unsatisfying intellectually, it does lend weight
to any number of kooky ideas that suggest that anything can happen :-).

Of course "the laws of nature" are simply observations of what SEEM to be
hard and fast rules about the reality of reality. At any stage that we
observe something that violates the current rule set we simply realise that
we were wrong and adjust the rule set. Of course (again :-) ) some "rules"
seem to be very useful and very inviolable. Examples are the 3 laws of
thermodynamics. Most easily remembered fwiw by rephrasing and thinking about
a card game:

   You can't win
   You can't break even.
   You can't get out of the game
   :-)

So far EVERYTHING seems to obey these "rules".

Some fairly important rules suffer some grave indignities while we are
looking the other way.
One such is the "rule" of gravitational attraction. IF we had an antigravity
source on the surface of the earth it would APPEAR to violate the 1st law of
thermodynamics and may allow us to fly off into space without (apparently)
expending energy. Clearly (!) antigravity is impossible. But observation of
large scale cosmological happenings reveals that gravity is not acting as it
ought on extremely large scales in some places in the universe. We explain
this by saying that there are forces (dark energy) and matter (dark matter)
that we can't detect in any way so far EXCEPT that it is playing fast and
loose with gravity. This COULD be seen as saying that the law of gravity is
broken (but not in our neighbourhood) and needs replacing but nobody is
seriously suggesting that - they just look for new "laws" instead.

In  a universe where we can't find 90% odd of the matter that seems to be
present and measurements indicate that the sun seems to have gone out (or
not, depending on which neutrino colour theory you subscribe to) and
Schroedinger STILL can't find his cat, then we could do with a few new laws
;-)

I very very seriously doubt that any of the many many 1st law violating
claimants to perpetual motion and antigravity and the like are genuinely
onto anything at all. But it is not inconceivable that one of these days the
US patent office is going to have to reverse its stand on the patentabilityy
of such devices. Of course, if the proponents of such something for nothing
devices are actually on the right track then such action by the USPO may be
rendered unnecessary by a very bright flash in the sky one day :-)


       RM

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2004\09\22@070513 by Jake Anderson

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perpetual motion and anti-gravity
fiction for engineers? ;->

> -----Original Message-----
> From: spam_OUTpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu [.....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu]On Behalf
> Of Russell McMahon
> Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 6:55 PM
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: Re: [OT] Lifter design
>     You can't win
>     You can't break even.
>     You can't get out of the game
>     :-)
>
> So far EVERYTHING seems to obey these "rules".

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2004\09\22@072402 by Luis.Moreira

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are there any practical designs that I can have a look at ? this seems very
interesting...

Luis

-----Original Message-----
From: Jake Anderson [grooveeespamKILLspamoptushome.com.au]
Sent: 22 September 2004 12:05
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: RE: [OT] Lifter design


perpetual motion and anti-gravity
fiction for engineers? ;->

{Quote hidden}

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2004\09\22@081406 by Russell McMahon

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> perpetual motion

Reality for particle physicists

> and anti-gravity

Reality for cosmologists

> fiction for engineers? ;->

just goes to show that engineers aren't at the leading edge ;-)


       RM

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2004\09\22@085952 by Eugene Rosenzweig

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The one I saw was http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifters.htm. I just checked it
appears as the first hit if you Google for 'lifter' and its been updates
since last time I looked at it couple of years ago when someone told me
about it. I actually made one then but I didn't think it through and built
it much bigger than the measurements specified. I powered it from an old
monitor, tapping into the tube, through some lacquered thin gauge copper
wires. Tried it in a room first, the wires were burning the carpet and the
stench of ozone was unbearable... I also remember it buzzing very loudly and
ominously. You definitely got the idea there was high voltage present. We
took it for a try outside next. The wires were sparking into the damp
driveway concrete and arcing from the lifter foil to ground. The lifter was
straining to lift but because I made it too large the balsa wood was
buckling too much, the foil would twist, discharge and the whole structure
would settle back down. It was interesting to watch the monitor too, as the
tube was still operating... Since then I was going to half all the balsa
struts to halve the size of the lifter but never got around to doing it. It
was rather exciting though, for one because there was some perceptible lift,
whichever natural phenomenon was responsible and also because a couple of my
completely non-scientific friends were present and they were very gung-ho
about it all until they saw the sparking, heard the loud ominous buzzing and
smelled the ozone. None of them would even come close to the thing for good
10 minutes after it was disconnected from the monitor.

Eugene.

> {Original Message removed}

2004\09\22@090746 by Bob Ammerman

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Here is a 'thought experiment':

Image a society living in an environment strongly saturated with naturally
generated radio waves. These primitives know nothing about radio, although
they do have some basic understanding of electricity from a power point of
view. Now some enterprising individual is playing with some funny crystals
and is very surprised to find that he can extract small amounts of power
from what appears to be thin air.

The point is, that it may indeed be possible that there is some form of
energy in the universe around us that we just don't understand (yet?). We
just might stumble onto a means to convert that energy into a useful form,
without really understanding where it is coming from.

I am *far* happier with the idea of converting energy from a heretofore
unknown type to something useful, rather than creating energy from nothing.
The former doesn't break any rules.

Of course, I am sure most, if not all, of the current crop of 'free energy'
folk are kooks or quacks.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems


{Original Message removed}

2004\09\22@101111 by Mike Hord

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> The point is, that it may indeed be possible that there is some form of
> energy in the universe around us that we just don't understand (yet?). We
> just might stumble onto a means to convert that energy into a useful form,
> without really understanding where it is coming from.

Terahertz electromagnetic radiation?  Petahertz?  Who knows?

I recall hearing an article (NPR) about EXTREMELY high frequency EMR.
Apparently, the study of it is still fairly new, and it has some very promising
applications.  Empirically I feel as though there must be some upper limit
on frequency, but mathematically I don't know that I could understand it.

> Of course, I am sure most, if not all, of the current crop of 'free energy'
> folk are kooks or quacks.

Or people with a thin grasp on thermodynamics...just smart enough to be a
real danger to themselves and others!

Mike H.
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2004\09\22@103008 by Robin.Bussell

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>Empirically I feel as though there must be some upper limit
>on frequency, but mathematically I don't know that I could understand it.

I'd guess at 10^43 Hz due to planck length :

http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae281.cfm

But I may be wrong :-)



Cheers,
           Robin.






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2004\09\22@103506 by Roland

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At 09:07 AM 22/09/04 -0400, you wrote:
>Here is a 'thought experiment':
>
>Image a society living in an environment strongly saturated with naturally
>generated radio waves. These primitives know nothing about radio, although
>they do have some basic understanding of electricity from a power point of
>view. Now some enterprising individual is playing with some funny crystals
>and is very surprised to find that he can extract small amounts of power
>from what appears to be thin air.
>

"Kryon"s viewpoint is that we are like a bunch of ants sitting on a
generator, burning leaves for fuel.
Except he can't tell us exactly how to do it, it's against the 'rules', or
rather, for us to find out.

Regards
Roland Jollivet

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2004\09\22@105020 by Russell McMahon

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> The point is, that it may indeed be possible that there is some form of
> energy in the universe around us that we just don't understand (yet?). We
> just might stumble onto a means to convert that energy into a useful form,
> without really understanding where it is coming from.

There is :-)
Many physicists believe.

The universe is not only stranger than we know, but also stranger than we
can know ;-)

Note that this is good hard science - although my description of it is
somewhat shaky.
(And the energy described may not be usable).

Note that this effect has been measured and matches theory. It suggests the
possibility of other versions of it which can be used to manipulate inertia
and gravity.

The zero point energy of "the vacuum" is at an unknown level. Some theories
produce a figure of unbelievably high magnitude. (Megawatts per mm^3 type
levels.) There are proposals to attempt to tap this energy, if it exists.
The "Casimir effect" (firts proposed in 1948 afaik) is one such. Two plates
are placed VERY close together. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle says
that the gap cannot be empty as if it was we'd know there was nothing there
and it wan't moving :-) so virtual particles are compelled to appear and
annihilate continually. These have an effect on the plates. Only particles
whose wavelength is an integral submultiple of the interplate spacing have
any net effect. Energy density increases as spacing decreases. The plates
are pulled together by a force which should be able to be utilised. Pulling
them apart again may be difficult :-)

The attractive Casimir force between two plates of area A separated by a
distance L can be calculated to be,

                 pi h c
          F =   -------- A
                 480 L^4


where h is Planck's constant and c is the speed of light.

To put a practical feel on it, you would get about 1.3 milli-Newton on two 1
m^2 plates separated by 1 micron (10-6 metre) (see 1st paper below)

Excellent introduction

   http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Quantum/casimir.html

Good non-technical introduction

   http://www.calphysics.org/zpe.html

An alternative energy page named after this effect

       http://www.zpenergy.com/


{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2004\09\22@114718 by Dave VanHorn

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>
>To put a practical feel on it, you would get about 1.3 milli-Newton on two 1 m^2 plates separated by 1 micron (10-6 metre) (see 1st paper below)

So about a million square meters of exquisitely surfaced and polished plates in a complete clean room, with a mechanism for separating them against this energy for substantially less than the force that brings them together, and a very efficient mechanism to extract energy from the motion over such a short distance, is all we'd need to power a lightbulb?

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2004\09\22@120628 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 09:11 AM 9/22/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> > The point is, that it may indeed be possible that there is some form of
> > energy in the universe around us that we just don't understand (yet?). We
> > just might stumble onto a means to convert that energy into a useful form,
> > without really understanding where it is coming from.
>
>Terahertz electromagnetic radiation?  Petahertz?  Who knows?
>
>I recall hearing an article (NPR) about EXTREMELY high frequency EMR.
>Apparently, the study of it is still fairly new, and it has some very
>promising
>applications.  Empirically I feel as though there must be some upper limit
>on frequency, but mathematically I don't know that I could understand it.

You go through far IR, IR, visible light, ultraviolet, soft X-rays, hard X-rays
and gamma rays as the wavelength decreases. The nomenclature changes from
frequency to wavelength to photon energy (eg. gamma rays start at 100,000 ev
and are expected to exist at >100 Gev or even Tev)

http://flux.aps.org/meetings/YR98/BAPSAPR98/abs/S1320006.html

Supernova may briefly create them:

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/rcfta/anrep94/anrep94/node17.html

At those wavelengths/energies, even our thermonuclear sun is dark, but the
moon glows somewhat (due to cosmic rays).

At such high energies, matter itself (and matching antimatter) can be
created from the EM radiation when they collide with something.

If there's an upper limit, it doesn't seem to be very important in this
universe, at the moment anyhow, at least from what I've seen.

Using the Planck length for the wavelength yields an energy of 8E+28 eV
(if I did the calculation correctly), which is more decades above
ultra-high-energy Tev gamma rays than they are above EM radiation at
the frequency of your heartbeat!

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
speffspamspam_OUTinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com




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2004\09\22@141119 by Mike Hord

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> The "Casimir effect" (firts proposed in 1948 afaik) is one such. Two plates
> are placed VERY close together. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle says
> that the gap cannot be empty as if it was we'd know there was nothing there
> and it wan't moving :-) so virtual particles are compelled to appear and
> annihilate continually. These have an effect on the plates. Only particles
> whose wavelength is an integral submultiple of the interplate spacing have
> any net effect. Energy density increases as spacing decreases. The plates
> are pulled together by a force which should be able to be utilised. Pulling
> them apart again may be difficult :-)

Is this related to Hawking radiation, where pairs of particles are constantly
appearing and annihilating, but occasionally one appears a little too close
to the event horizon of a singularity and its antiparticle zooms off into the
universe, causing the singularity to appear to emit radiation?

That's a long dig out of my very short memory.

Maybe we could make use of that...I've heard that at CERN they think that
they will be able to make very small artificial singularities before too long.
All we have to do is trick probability into creating a very large number of
pairs very close to the singularity.  Maybe that where an "infinite
improbability drive" could come in handy... ;-)

Mike H.
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2004\09\22@161349 by Support - KF4HAZ

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----- From: "Mike Hord" <mike.hord@

{Quote hidden}

We may be close but, at this time we can not seem to get the tea hot enough ;-)

KF4HAZ - Lonnie

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2004\09\23@035319 by Peter L. Peres

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On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Russell McMahon wrote:

>> perpetual motion
>
> Reality for particle physicists

Also: you know it's there but you can't touch it and only prove it by
circumstantial means. Hardly acceptable at the patent office ...

Peter
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2004\09\23@054810 by Howard Winter

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On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:14:38 -0500, Falcon Wireless Tech
Support - KF4HAZ wrote:

> > Maybe that where an "infinite
> > improbability drive" could come in handy... ;-)
> >
> > Mike H.
> We may be close but, at this time we can not seem to
get the tea hot enough ;-)

ROFL!

Hey, did you folks know that they have made a new radio
series of HHGTTG with most of the original cast, and
it's on BBC Radio 4, starting this week?  For the
non-Brits, it will be released on cassette and CD in
October.

Cheers,

Howard Winter
St.Albans, England, off to find his towel


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2004\09\23@061346 by hael Rigby-Jones

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{Quote hidden}

And is available online for 7 days after the Thursday repeat:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/hitchhikers/newseries.shtml

Regards

Mike

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2004\09\23@072505 by Jinx

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> And is available online for 7 days after the Thursday repeat:
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/hitchhikers/newseries.shtml

Nice one, thanks for the heads up, I'll have a listen to it tomorrow.

I'd have been muttering "Belgium" all week otherwise

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2004\09\23@095512 by Mike Hord

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On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 23:24:01 +1200, Jinx <RemoveMEjoecolquittTakeThisOuTspamclear.net.nz> wrote:
> > And is available online for 7 days after the Thursday repeat:
> >
> > www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/hitchhikers/newseries.shtml
>
> Nice one, thanks for the heads up, I'll have a listen to it tomorrow.
>
> I'd have been muttering "<expletive deleted>" all week otherwise

Careful, Jinx, or James'll have your head!  ;-)

Mike H.
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2004\09\23@111509 by Support - KF4HAZ

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I can receive BBC Radio4 on my ham rig here in Alabama, USA
will tune in and listen live via the air-waves.
KF4HAZ - Lonnie

{Quote hidden}

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2004\09\23@120528 by Alan B. Pearce

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>I can receive BBC Radio4 on my ham rig here in Alabama, USA
>will tune in and listen live via the air-waves.

trouble with Jinx is he is half a world away, you're only half that :))
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2004\09\23@124254 by Support - KF4HAZ

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----- From: "Alan B. Pearce" <A.B.Pearce@
> >I can receive BBC Radio4 on my ham rig here in Alabama, USA
> >will tune in and listen live via the air-waves.
>
> trouble with Jinx is he is half a world away, you're only half that :))

Are we talking geographically, or mentally? ;-)

KF4HAZ - Lonnie

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2004\09\23@134153 by Paul James E.

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Lonnie,

What freq?

Regards,

Jim KA9QHR




{Quote hidden}

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2004\09\23@134201 by Paul James E.

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Lonnie,

What freq?

Regards,

Jim KA9QHR




{Quote hidden}

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2004\09\23@145536 by Support - KF4HAZ

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198kHz AM,
also I think one of these 4
15.31MHz AM, 12.095MHz AM, 9.410MHz AM, 6.195MHz AM

KF4HAZ - Lonnie

----- From: "Paul James E." <jamesp@
{Quote hidden}

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2004\09\23@154928 by Jinx

face picon face

> >I can receive BBC Radio4 on my ham rig here in Alabama, USA
> >will tune in and listen live via the air-waves.
>
> trouble with Jinx is he is half a world away

At least..........

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2004\09\24@133310 by Mike Hord

picon face
> > >I can receive BBC Radio4 on my ham rig here in Alabama, USA
> > >will tune in and listen live via the air-waves.
> >
> > trouble with Jinx is he is half a world away
>
> At least..........

I don't understand that term.

NZ is (about) as far away from the UK as one can get, while remaining
on the surface of Earth.

If Jinx is only half a world away, then it follows someone else could be
a WHOLE world away.  Where would they be?  I'm so confused.  :-(

Mike H.
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2004\09\24@153946 by Jinx

face picon face
> > > trouble with Jinx is he is half a world away
> >
> > At least..........
>
> I don't understand that term.
>
> NZ is (about) as far away from the UK as one can get, while remaining
> on the surface of Earth.
>
> If Jinx is only half a world away, then it follows someone else could be
> a WHOLE world away.  Where would they be?  I'm so confused.  :-(
>
> Mike H.

Earth to Mike, Earth to Mike ;-)

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2004\09\24@164228 by Peter L. Peres

picon face

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Howard Winter wrote:

> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:14:38 -0500, Falcon Wireless Tech
> Support - KF4HAZ wrote:
>
>>> Maybe that where an "infinite
>>> improbability drive" could come in handy... ;-)
>>>
>>> Mike H.
>> We may be close but, at this time we can not seem to
> get the tea hot enough ;-)
>
> ROFL!
>
> Hey, did you folks know that they have made a new radio
> series of HHGTTG with most of the original cast, and
> it's on BBC Radio 4, starting this week?  For the
> non-Brits, it will be released on cassette and CD in
> October.

BBC 4 can be listened to on the internet easily. What is HHGTTG ?

Peter
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2004\09\24@164241 by Peter L. Peres

picon face

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Falcon Wireless Tech Support - KF4HAZ wrote:

> 198kHz AM,

Don't you have qrm from local power supplies etc on that frequency ? So
far I've never been in a place where LW was usable (excepting on a ferry
out at sea, and even then I had to seek shelter from fluorescent light
converters).

Peter
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2004\09\24@164810 by Paul James E.

picon face

All,

It seems to me the farthest one could get from any point on the Earth is
half a world away.  ie 180 degrees from where you currently are.
Any more than this (>180 degrees) or any less than this (<180 degrees)
would put you closer than half a world away.  And if you were a whole
world away, then you'd be exactly where you currently are.  
Do you agree?

                                              Regards,

                                                Jim



{Quote hidden}

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2004\09\24@164817 by Paul James E.

picon face

All,

It seems to me the farthest one could get from any point on the Earth is
half a world away.  ie 180 degrees from where you currently are.
Any more than this (>180 degrees) or any less than this (<180 degrees)
would put you closer than half a world away.  And if you were a whole
world away, then you'd be exactly where you currently are.  
Do you agree?

                                              Regards,

                                                Jim



{Quote hidden}

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2004\09\24@165423 by Eisermann, Phil [Ridg/CO]

flavicon
face
piclist-bounces@mit.edu wrote:
>> If Jinx is only half a world away, then it follows someone else
>> could be a WHOLE world away.  Where would they be?  I'm so confused.
>> :-(
>>
>> Mike H.
>
> Earth to Mike, Earth to Mike ;-)

well, there *are* people who believe the earth is flat:

http://www.flat-earth.org/

and (according to their FAQ), Australia doesn't exist, so
that makes the whole question moot.

Hey, if it says so on the internet, it must be true....
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2004\09\24@170427 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
At 10:07 PM 9/24/2004, Peter L. Peres wrote:


>On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Falcon Wireless Tech Support - KF4HAZ wrote:
>
>>198kHz AM,
>
>Don't you have qrm from local power supplies etc on that frequency ? So far I've never been in a place where LW was usable (excepting on a ferry out at sea, and even then I had to seek shelter from fluorescent light converters).

I didn't think they did broadcasting down there.  Misprint?

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2004\09\24@170546 by Paul James E.

picon face

"Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy"





{Quote hidden}

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2004\09\24@181121 by Support - KF4HAZ

flavicon
face
Well my location is 673'AMSL + 160' tower with an excellent HAAT
(Height Above Average Terrain)
I am located "out in the woods" away from most sources of qrm (except my own)
My grounding system consists of a ground ring +
660' of 1" galvanized pipe running to the pumphouse, where it is always wet.
MW ant consists of 600' of 2 - 8 ga. conductors spaced 8" apart on poles running southward
(was used to power pump before we ran underground cable to it)
This is roughly a 1/8 wave antenna (@ 198kc) worked against ground.
Have picked up signals as low as 125kc on an ICOM 735 transceiver.

KF4HAZ - Lonnie

----- From: "Peter L. Peres" <plp@
{Quote hidden}

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2004\09\24@183453 by Support - KF4HAZ

flavicon
face

----- From: "Dave VanHorn" <dvanhorn@

> At 10:07 PM 9/24/2004, Peter L. Peres wrote:
>
>
> >On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Falcon Wireless Tech Support - KF4HAZ wrote:
> >
> >>198kHz AM,
> >
> >Don't you have qrm from local power supplies etc on that frequency ? So far I've never been in a place where LW was usable (excepting on a ferry out at sea, and even then I had to seek shelter from fluorescent light converters).
>
> I didn't think they did broadcasting down there.  Misprint?

Not a misprint 198kc AM BBC Radio 4,
If you are close enough they also use FM somewhere around 93MHz (memory may be off a MHz or so)
KF4HAZ - Lonnie

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2004\09\24@184057 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Dave,

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:04:34 -0500, Dave VanHorn wrote:

> At 10:07 PM 9/24/2004, Peter L. Peres wrote:
>
>
> >On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Falcon Wireless Tech Support - KF4HAZ wrote:
> >
> >>198kHz AM,
> >
> >Don't you have qrm from local power supplies etc on that frequency ? So far I've never been in a place
where LW was usable (excepting on a ferry out at sea, and even then I had to seek shelter from fluorescent
light converters).
>
> I didn't think they did broadcasting down there.  Misprint?

Nope!  The Beeb have always transmitted on Long Wave - 198kHz is indeed one of the frequencies they use for
Radio 4 (the rest are VHF).  There's a bit of information on who uses LW at  
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Longwave


Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


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2004\09\24@191137 by steve

flavicon
face
> > Hey, did you folks know that they have made a new radio
> > series of HHGTTG with most of the original cast, and
> > it's on BBC Radio 4, starting this week?  For the
> > non-Brits, it will be released on cassette and CD in
> > October.

Did you know the Americans are making a HHGTTG movie ?
That'll be interesting.

Steve.



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2004\09\24@191141 by steve

flavicon
face
> http://www.flat-earth.org/
> and (according to their FAQ), Australia doesn't exist, so
> that makes the whole question moot.

IIRC, when the Galileo spacecraft flew by Earth, they performed the life
test experiments and concluded that there was definitely life but signs of
intelligence were marginal. The landmass visible to the spacecraft at the
time was Australia. Draw your own conclusions. :-)

Steve.


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2004\09\24@201647 by Jinx

face picon face
> Did you know the Americans are making a HHGTTG movie ?
> That'll be interesting.

<miserable old cynic>

Hmmmm, tough job - I don't remember any big car chases in the
original ?!?!?! Plenty of raygun-play though, and a space action film
is always a good payday for the propane industry

Let's see, how could it be ruined - Owen Wilson ? Will Smith ?
Martin Short ? Pauly Shore (no no no no no) ? Get that hack
Roland Emmerich (ID4) on board with Renny Harlin, guaranteed
box office cheesy success

I heard that there could be a Star Wars TV series. Just let it die
with dignity George, just let it die

</miserable old cynic>

BTW, anyone in NZ reading this, TV One tonight (Sat 25th), a
documentary about William Pickering

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2004\09\24@235813 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Sep 24, 2004, at 4:11 PM, spamBeGonestevespamBeGonespamtla.co.nz wrote:
>
> Did you know the Americans are making a HHGTTG movie ?
> That'll be interesting.
>
Probably not.  Are they making it a horror film, or a special
effects spectacular?  :-(

BillW

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2004\09\25@000237 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Sep 24, 2004, at 5:16 PM, Jinx wrote:

> Let's see, how could it be ruined - Owen Wilson ? Will Smith ?
> Martin Short ? Pauly Shore (no no no no no) ?

There was a thread on rec.arts.sf.written on worst possible miscastings
for famous works of SF and fantasy.  It was pretty funny...

>
> I heard that there could be a Star Wars TV series. Just let it die
> with dignity George, just let it die
>
There already is a kids cartoon series...  Maybe that's where it
belongs :-(

BillW

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2004\09\25@035211 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
>  It seems to me the farthest one could get from any point on
> the Earth is
>  half a world away.  ie 180 degrees from where you currently are.
>  Any more than this (>180 degrees) or any less than this
> (<180 degrees)
>  would put you closer than half a world away.  And if you were a whole
>  world away, then you'd be exactly where you currently are.  
>  Do you agree?

This looks like the cyclic average discussion in two dimensions!

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


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2004\09\25@063818 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Wouter,

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 09:52:10 +0200, Wouter van Ooijen
wrote:

> This looks like the cyclic average discussion in two
dimensions!

I make it three - unless you're a member of the Flat
Earth Society?  :-)))

But I say that between the UK and New Zealand there is a
whole planet, so it's a Whole World away!

Cheers,

Howard Winter (been to New Zealand, hired the car, got
the speeding ticket...)

Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


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2004\09\25@070326 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> It seems to me the farthest one could get from any point on the Earth is
> half a world away.  ie 180 degrees from where you currently are.
> Any more than this (>180 degrees) or any less than this (<180 degrees)
> would put you closer than half a world away.  And if you were a whole
> world away, then you'd be exactly where you currently are.
> Do you agree?

Geographically, yes.
Radio-ly, varies.

Radio has short path and long path. One path will be more affected by
exposure of atmosphere to the sun and subsequent ionisation. The long path
may be a better propogation path than the short one. if so the "shortest"
effective path is more than half a world circumference. This is a pretty
specialist application of the concept of the distance away being MORE than
12,000 miles, BUT it just happens to apply specifically here. Except for UK
& NZ :-). As they are ALMOST opposite the short and long apth are ALMOSt
equal. Actual antipodes of NZ is Spain.

Interestingly - the antipodes of Australia is the Bermuda Triangle! - helps
explain Australians perhaps :-)


       RM


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2004\09\25@092507 by Peter L. Peres

picon face

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Dave VanHorn wrote:

> At 10:07 PM 9/24/2004, Peter L. Peres wrote:
>
>
>> On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Falcon Wireless Tech Support - KF4HAZ wrote:
>>
>>> 198kHz AM,
>>
>> Don't you have qrm from local power supplies etc on that frequency ? So far I've never been in a place where LW was usable (excepting on a ferry out at sea, and even then I had to seek shelter from fluorescent light converters).
>
> I didn't think they did broadcasting down there.  Misprint?

No misprint and the right freq. to listen at half a world away - assuming
there is no qrm. Go to http://www.bbc.co.uk and click on Radio 4. There is also a
frequency plan somewhere there (I haven't found it yet).

Peter
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2004\09\25@092624 by Peter L. Peres

picon face

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Paul James E. wrote:

> "Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy"

Oh, thanks. I read it once upon a time but it did not click.

Peter
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2004\09\25@093832 by Peter L. Peres

picon face

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Falcon Wireless Tech Support - KF4HAZ wrote:

> Well my location is 673'AMSL + 160' tower with an excellent HAAT (Height
> Above Average Terrain) I am located "out in the woods" away from most
> sources of qrm (except my own) My grounding system consists of a ground
> ring + 660' of 1" galvanized pipe running to the pumphouse, where it is
> always wet. MW ant consists of 600' of 2 - 8 ga. conductors spaced 8"
> apart on poles running southward (was used to power pump before we ran
> underground cable to it) This is roughly a 1/8 wave antenna (@ 198kc)
> worked against ground. Have picked up signals as low as 125kc on an ICOM
> 735 transceiver.

That explains a lot. You have a regular radio center there ;-) Did you
tune the antenna or just impedance match it (presumably by transmitting on
a nearby ham band) ? Just curious. My dx receive attempts used ferrite
antennas (several, link coupled and tuned), tuned ferrite coupled with
tuned loop, and loop (tuned and not tuned). Untuned preamplified loops are
really useless in qrm conditions at lw. The largest loop I used was 4 x
2.5 meters about 10 turns (tapped at each turn) (using an existing wall in
a brick house). if the wall points in the right direction and the tuning
and tapping are right then the results can be interesting.

Peter
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2004\09\25@150151 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Peter,

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:28:58 -0400 (EDT), Peter L. Peres
wrote:

> > "Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy"
>
> Oh, thanks. I read it once upon a time but it did not
click.

It's been produced in various forms of media, but the
radio programmes were the best, IMHO.  The new series
sounds *so* much like the originals that it's uncanny!

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


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2004\09\27@111935 by Support - KF4HAZ

flavicon
face

----- From: "Peter L. Peres" <plp@
{Quote hidden}

I do not own a "transmatch" or antenna tuner, nor does my rig have one built in.
I use other/older methods, like trying the 2 - 8 gauge conductors in Parallel,
or as a loop, or running down one to a loading coil and back on the other,
or grounding the far end. Variations of coils and taps.
Working against ground or the tower.
Basically try every combination you can think of and see what you can receive.
Works best in winter when there is little or no lightning within thousands of miles.
Rig tunes from 30kc to 30MHz.

KF4HAZ - Lonnie

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2004\09\27@152948 by Peter L. Peres

picon face

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Falcon Wireless Tech Support - KF4HAZ wrote:

>> 2.5 meters about 10 turns (tapped at each turn) (using an existing wall in
>> a brick house). if the wall points in the right direction and the tuning
>> and tapping are right then the results can be interesting.
>>
>> Peter
> I do not own a "transmatch" or antenna tuner, nor does my rig have one built in.
> I use other/older methods, like trying the 2 - 8 gauge conductors in Parallel,
> or as a loop, or running down one to a loading coil and back on the other,
> or grounding the far end. Variations of coils and taps.
> Working against ground or the tower.
> Basically try every combination you can think of and see what you can receive.
> Works best in winter when there is little or no lightning within thousands of miles.
> Rig tunes from 30kc to 30MHz.

Thanks. Just for the record I do not use a transmatch either, instead, I
use an old air variable that parallel tunes the loop for inductive
coupling to the ferrite or series tunes for 50 ohm antenna cable. The
cable had 6 ferrite clamps on it at the antenna end as balun. The Q of the
parallel version is much better. It's still useless in qrm. The best time
to listen to lw in a city is during power outages ;-)

Peter
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