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'[OT] Job hunt advice'
2005\10\26@165905 by Mike Hord

picon face
I'm going to make this OT, but maybe it should be
EE, or even AD...

Anyway, I'm looking for a new job in the
Minneapolis/St. Paul neck of the woods, and I'm
wondering if any of you have any sage advice for
me to take to heart about it.  Job searching in
general, embedded systems job hunting and
the MSP area in specific, whatever.

I'm not fishing for job offers, here (but if you want
to make one, or see my resume, I certainly won't
refuse! ;-) ), but more asking what others' recent
experiences have been (particularly in that part
of the US), what they might have done differently,
where they found the listing for their jobs, etc.
Especially new grads, since my 2.5 years of
oddball research lab experience probably won't
count for much.

Mike H.

2005\10\26@223204 by shb7

flavicon
face
Hi Mike,

I recently went through a job search under similar circumstances - 2 years of grad research experience but no formal full-time EE work experience. I found that prospective employers DID take my grad research into serious consideration, especially when I detailed what it involved (design of an autonomous helicopter). You can "spin" such experience as equivalent to work experience, I think, in  many circumstances.

I would also urge patience and the importance of getting your resume into the right hands. I had about two months of NOTHING (no responses to my resume, etc.) and then when I did more research and found out whom I really should send my resume to, it was a matter of days until I had an interview. I finally got three offers. One of them was through my old grad school advisor and is the one I eventually took. You should check into connections you have through school.

Don't be afraid to send additional material (including color photos of projects you have done) with your resume. That made ALL the difference (I was told after the fact) in my getting the offer I eventually accepted. It took my resume from the "maybe he would be OK" stage to "he's the perfect candidate" status.

Sean



2005\10\26@234038 by Mike Hord

picon face
> I recently went through a job search under similar
> circumstances - 2 years of grad research experience
> but no formal full-time EE work experience.

Not grad research, just work in a research lab.  I
provide engineering support to a neuroscience lab.  I'm
not sure if that's better or worse.

> One of them was through my old grad school advisor
> and is the one I eventually took. You should check
> into connections you have through school.

Unfortunately, I work at a vet school, so most of my
contacts don't overlap into the engineering world too
well.  Worth a try, however.

> Don't be afraid to send additional material (including
> color photos of projects you have done) with your
> resume.

Very interesting.  I presume the suggestion then is
snail mailing rather than e-mailing?  I prefer that myself,
but it is just so much less gratifying.  At least it forces
a human being to touch your resume, if not read it.

Thanks for the input!

Mike H.

2005\10\27@002142 by Bill & Pookie

picon face
You might look into "Job Shops".  They are simular to temp agencies for
techincal people.  The pay you good money and send you to a company to work
for three months or so.  After that the company can hire you outright or let
you go you on your way.

Bill

{Original Message removed}

2005\10\27@062433 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Hi Mike,

[snip]
> Anyway, I'm looking for a new job in the
> Minneapolis/St. Paul neck of the woods, and I'm
> wondering if any of you have any sage advice for
> me to take to heart about it.  Job searching in
> general, embedded systems job hunting and
> the MSP area in specific, whatever.

As a small business owner, I am involved in screening resumes for various
positions within our company. So I can give you some advice "from the dark
side". :-)


== RESUME ==

The most important thing you should do is make sure your resume is as close
to perfect as possible. After all, initially your resume is the only thing
that you are judged on, and it is this document that can get you an
interview and the job. Sounds obvious? Based on my experience, it is not to
most people. Some candidates think (and even write in their resumes) that
they can better explain their qualifications in person. Such logic escapes
me (perhaps they think they're more attractive, or smell better than the
other candidates?).


SPELLING ERRORS

Don't be afraid to spend some time on your resume - it is well worth it. My
big pet peeve is spelling errors, and our company follows a "three strikes
and you're out" policy. There's absolutely no reason why your resume
shouldn't be error-free -- you have all the time in the world to proofread
it, not to mention the spell checker. Why is it important to employers?
Because individuals who read a lot make few spelling mistakes, and there is
a direct corellation between reading and intelligence. Sure, there are
exceptions - but they are rare.


FORMATTING

Besides spelling mistakes, avoid bad formatting. Use bold and italic fonts,
bulleted and numbered lists, headings and proper capitalization. Do not use
all caps or list your experience in one long paragraph. In other words, do
whatever is necessary to make your resume as easy to read as possible.

I'm not sure what the national average is, but I can tell you that when
there are 50 resumes on my desk, the first pass (which eliminates 90% of
them) takes me about 30 minutes. If I have enough candidates, and your
resume happens to be hard to read, it will be promptly fed to the shredder.


CONTENT

Of course, content is a big thing. The keyword here is "customize." Do not
send the same resume to 100 companies. That's what other people do - they
think that quantity is more important than quality. Find a handful of
companies that you would really like to work for, and customize your resume
for every single one of them. Do research, read the job description, find
out exactly what the company is looking for. Make sure that you list all the
relevant skills and experience, but also try to keep irrelevant stuff off
your resume - it can hurt you. Make yourself a perfect fit for the
advertised position - no more, no less.

Keep in mind that a potential employer is not your enemy - in the end, you
both want the same thing: to make sure that you are a good fit for the
company. Do not bluff, unless you are 100% certain that you can perform the
tasks.


OBJECTIVE

Two extremes (both of them from real resumes):

"Objective: Obtain a job with your company"
(Duh!)

"Objective: To obtain a challenging position within a company that will
utilize my experience and knowledge while providing advancement
opportunities within the industry."
(A lot of big words, but provides absolutely no useful information.)

The ideal objective would be a generalized summary of the job description.


COVER LETTER

Employers get a warm, fuzzy feeling when you write them a letter which
mentions the name of their company (or better yet, the name of the person
doing the hiring). This alone would earn your resume a place in the "for
further review" pile. Again, do your homework - find out as much as you can
about the company and the duties you will be expected to perform, then
explain why you and the job were made for each other. Remember that the
employer doesn't like to be one of many - he likes to feel special.


WHERE TO LOOK FOR JOBS

The top two resources that our company uses to advertize vacancies are
Monster.com and CareerBuilder.com. Also the local newspaper (for us, it's a
byproduct of advertising on CareerBuilder), although in my opinion online
search engines are more convenient. Recently we also started using an
employment agency (Volt Technical).


CONCLUSION

People often forget that the HR manager is a human being. They think that
their resumes are scanned into a big mainframe computer, which ranks them on
the number of buzzwords and words of Latin origin they contain. Avoid this
mistake by applying the golden rule: if the roles were reversed, what would
you have liked to see in a resume?

Good luck with your job hunt!

Vitaliy




2005\10\27@071205 by redrock8

picon face
What is your company?

-----Original Message-----
From: spam_OUTpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu [.....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Vitaliy
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 6:23 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [OT] Job hunt advice


2005\10\27@073915 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
----- Original Message -----
From: "redrock8" <redrock8spamKILLspamcomcast.net>
To: "'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.'" <.....piclistKILLspamspam.....mit.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 4:12 AM
Subject: RE: [OT] Job hunt advice

> What is your company?
>

http://www.scantool.net

2005\10\27@075746 by olin piclist

face picon face
Mike Hord wrote:
>> Don't be afraid to send additional material (including
>> color photos of projects you have done) with your
>> resume.
>
> Very interesting.  I presume the suggestion then is
> snail mailing rather than e-mailing?  I prefer that myself,
> but it is just so much less gratifying.  At least it forces
> a human being to touch your resume, if not read it.

I think a better approach is to put your resume on a web page with links
that provide more information on projects you've done.  You can put small
thumbnail pictures on the resume, then bigger pictures with more explanation
on a separate page.  Make sure the web page is neat, easy to read, and NOT
flashy.  If you were going for an advertising job, flashy might be useful.
But for an engineer you want a resume whos style says "function over style".

I haven't had someone give me a resume with pictures of projects, but I
think it would make things feel more real and capture my interest for a
little while longer.  Of course that will stop working when everyone does
it, but for now it sounds like a good idea.

Another important thing is to personally follow up with the hiring manager a
few days after he should have received your resume.  It's amazing how many
people don't do this.  Think of it from the hiring manager's point of view.
He's looking thru a stack of resumes looking for any excuse reject each one,
since the ones he doesn't reject represent an investment in what feels like
unproductive time to persue further.  After the initial pass there will be a
smaller pile to phone screen.  That's a hassle.  This will get done in
between doing "real" work.  If a candidate calls on his own accord, not only
does that show some initiative, but also saves the hassle of playing the
phone tag game.  Of course if he's already firmly decided you're not the
right fit, then it will be a short phone call.  Even then be polite and
thank him for his time.  Don't be pushy, and accept "no" if that's the
answer.  If you're lucky you might get some useful insight on why you were
rejected.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2005\10\27@091004 by olin piclist

face picon face
Vitaliy wrote:
> As a small business owner, I am involved in screening resumes for
> various positions within our company. So I can give you some advice
> "from the dark side". :-)

A lot of good advice I largely agree with.  As someone else whos had to go
thru piles of resumes I want to point out slightly different opinions in a
few places.

> The most important thing you should do is make sure your resume is as
> close to perfect as possible. After all, initially your resume is the
> only thing that you are judged on, and it is this document that can get
> you an interview and the job. Sounds obvious? Based on my experience,
> it is not to most people. Some candidates think (and even write in
> their resumes) that they can better explain their qualifications in
> person. Such logic escapes me (perhaps they think they're more
> attractive, or smell better than the other candidates?).

Absolutely right on.  Think about your reaction when a catalog lists "call"
for the price.  Do you call?  Of course not.  You mumble to yourself
"---holes" and go on to the next catalog, web site, or whatever.

> Don't be afraid to spend some time on your resume - it is well worth
> it. My big pet peeve is spelling errors, and our company follows a
> "three strikes and you're out" policy. There's absolutely no reason why
> your resume shouldn't be error-free -- you have all the time in the
> world to proofread it, not to mention the spell checker. Why is it
> important to employers? Because individuals who read a lot make few
> spelling mistakes, and there is a direct corellation between reading
> and intelligence. Sure, there are exceptions - but they are rare.

I totally agree that spelling is important, but for a slightly different
reason.  Anything that shows lack of attention to detail immediately tells
me the candidate is a waste of time.  Engineering is about lots of details
and getting them all right.  I've never seen a good sloppy engineer.  If
someone can't even take the trouble to get a resume right when it's only two
pages and they've got all the time in the world, what are they going to do
with the critical customer job that needs to be done Friday?  Sloppiness
also trades off the writer's time for the reader's time.  This basically
says to anyone reading your resume "My time is more important than yours.".
Duh!

> Besides spelling mistakes, avoid bad formatting. Use bold and italic
> fonts, bulleted and numbered lists, headings and proper capitalization.
> Do not use all caps or list your experience in one long paragraph. In
> other words, do whatever is necessary to make your resume as easy to
> read as possible.

Right.  It should be easy to read and neat.  However avoid gimmicks and
"cutesy" formatting.  It's annoying to read and basically says "I think your
so dumb that I can dazzle you with BS to pick me when you otherwise
wouldn't.".  Again, duh!

> I'm not sure what the national average is, but I can tell you that when
> there are 50 resumes on my desk, the first pass (which eliminates 90% of
> them) takes me about 30 minutes. If I have enough candidates, and your
> resume happens to be hard to read, it will be promptly fed to the
> shredder.

Yup, sounds about right (except I use a recycle bin, and I may pass some of
the really bad ones around for a good laugh).

{Quote hidden}

There is a fine line between customizing and patronizing.  In some ways I
mistrust clearly customized resumes because it feels like I'm being told
what the candidate thinks I want to hear.  Some amount of customization is a
good idea, but that should be limited to what is emphasized or elaborated on
versus just mentioned.  Never ever ever "extend" the truth.  I guarantee it
will backfire.

This is one advantage of a web resume.  It is inherently more honest because
you are forced to say the same thing to anyone who might look at it.

> Keep in mind that a potential employer is not your enemy - in the end,
> you both want the same thing: to make sure that you are a good fit for
> the company. Do not bluff, unless you are 100% certain that you can
> perform the tasks.

I'd go further and say never bluff.  If you're confident you can do
something even though you've never done it, explain why.  This may even work
to your advantage.  Personally I prefer intelligent people that understand
the concepts and could learn specific systems or whatever over experience
with those specific systems.  This is the thing most head hunters and
agencies (and the lesser candidates) don't seem to get.  They think the most
important thing is experience measured by the number of fancy buzzwords on
the resume.  Wrong!

> "Objective: Obtain a job with your company"
> (Duh!)

At least it's honest, but I agree with the "Duh!".  This is one I might pass
around for a laugh, although I could forgive this for someone right out of
school and might continue reading.

> "Objective: To obtain a challenging position within a company that will
> utilize my experience and knowledge while providing advancement
> opportunities within the industry."
> (A lot of big words, but provides absolutely no useful information.)

In other words "I think you're so dumb that all I have to do is use a bunch
of big sounding words".  Straight into the recyling bin.

> The ideal objective would be a generalized summary of the job
> description.

To an extent.  Going too far makes me think I'm being told what the
candidate thinks I want to hear regardless of the truth.

> Employers get a warm, fuzzy feeling when you write them a letter which
> mentions the name of their company (or better yet, the name of the
> person doing the hiring). This alone would earn your resume a place in
> the "for further review" pile. Again, do your homework - find out as
> much as you can about the company and the duties you will be expected
> to perform, then explain why you and the job were made for each other.
> Remember that the employer doesn't like to be one of many - he likes to
> feel special.

I have a different opinion on cover letters.  I realize they are considered
the right thing to do, so therefore can't fault anyone for writing one.
However, they are pretty much content free by definition.  I usually don't
read them.  Mostly I toss them straight into the recyling bin and look at
the resume.

So you should write a brief cover letter because some people expect them.
However, never put any real information only in the cover letter.  The
resume must always stand on its own.

> The top two resources that our company uses to advertize vacancies are
> Monster.com and CareerBuilder.com. Also the local newspaper (for us,
> it's a byproduct of advertising on CareerBuilder), although in my
> opinion online search engines are more convenient. Recently we also
> started using an employment agency (Volt Technical).

I consider formal advertising for a job the last resort.  I much prefer to
get referrals from people I know.  Conversely, that means the best and first
thing for a candidate to do is ask around.  Tell everyone you know you're
looking for a job and what kind.  Don't be afraid to ask them once a month
or so.  Most people will forget about you when they do hear of a job a few
weeks later.  I know I've done this.

> People often forget that the HR manager is a human being. They think
> that their resumes are scanned into a big mainframe computer, which
> ranks them on the number of buzzwords and words of Latin origin they
> contain. Avoid this mistake by applying the golden rule: if the roles
> were reversed, what would you have liked to see in a resume?

Right on.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2005\10\27@092756 by James Humes

picon face
Another avenue to investigate is Craig's list. I've seen (but not pursued) a
number of programming/embedded systems/EE jobs in my area (Denver/Boulder)
that looked good for a fresh grad.
James

2005\10\27@102351 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Absolutely right on.  Think about your reaction when a
> catalog lists "call" for the price.  Do you call?

I always wonder why companies make such catalogs and/or websites anyway.
I would call only if no other catalog/website with prices is available.
Making me call conveys arrogance: "you want our product so badly that
you will call us". I don't like ro reward arrogance.

> There's absolutely no reason why
>> your resume shouldn't be error-free -- you have all the time in the
>> world to proofread it, not to mention the spell checker.

I would advise resume readers to keep one thing in mind: the resume
writing might not have the same language background as you have. This
may be rare in the USA, but it is very common in Europe.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\10\27@103603 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
On 10/26/05, Mike Hord <EraseMEmike.hordspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:
> I'm not fishing for job offers, here (but if you want
> to make one, or see my resume, I certainly won't
> refuse! ;-) ), but more asking what others' recent
> experiences have been (particularly in that part
> of the US), what they might have done differently,
> where they found the listing for their jobs, etc.
> Especially new grads, since my 2.5 years of
> oddball research lab experience probably won't
> count for much.

I've found the following to be very helpful in a job search I
perfromed in 2001 and one performed over the last year as I graduated
with a bachelors degree:

Cover letter:
Take a look at the listing.  Find out as much as you can about the job
position and offer (sometimes the printed offer is less informative
than the online version).
Choose 3 requirements of that offer that you can show, through
examples, that you are qualified for.  Write a short paragraph about
each item, perhaps 2-3 sentences.
Now research the company.  Find out what they do: services, products,
etc.  Find out about their market position, find their competitors,
learn about the company organization.  Find out who the hiring manager
is for this position (HR may be the one tending the offer, but
ultimately a manager put in a request and the manager gets to organize
the technical interviews)
Compose the actual cover letter:
The first paragraph should introduce you, the job you're applying for,
and how you found out about the job.
The middle three paragraphs show three strong skills that you possess
that apply directly to the job offer.
The last paragraph demonstrates your knowledge of the company and its
mission.  I usually indicate that I am looking forward to meeting them
in an interview.
Send the resume attached in an email, with the cover letter as the
body of the email.  Send it directly to the hiring manager.  If the
offer indicates that it should be sent to HR or someone other than the
hiring manager, send it to both and indicate clearly at the bottom of
the email who got copies (cc: someonespamspam_OUTcompany.com,
@spam@someoneelseKILLspamspamcompany.com).

Follow up:
You will need to follow up by phone.  Depending on the company and its
hiring process the resume may not be "in the system" for a week or
more.  Before you call, think of a few questions you have about the
position or company.  Call the hiring manager directly.  Introduce
yourself, indicate that you are applying for a position and sent a
resume - ask if they recieved it.  Ask a few questions about the
position and the company, have a short discussion, and ask when you
can come in for an interview.  This may be the first time they are
really looking at your cover letter or resume, so expect them to
indicate that it may be several days before they start interviewing or
some other reason not to commit to an interview.  Be prepared to set
one up immediately as well.  Unless they specifically say they are not
interested in you as a candidate for this position, ask when you can
follow up again, and write that down. Follow up again.
You may find that for some companies this process will take weeks,
while others are able to react very quickly.  Keep following up on a
regular basis until they indicate the position is closed, or you have
a job.
If they indicate they are not interested in interviewing you, then ask
them what makes you incompatible with the offer, and in what ways
could you improve yourself (resume, presentation, skills, etc) so that
you would be a more attractive candidate.  They may be willing to
discuss this (make it short), or they may not, but either way you've
got nothing to lose, and something to gain.

In my experience the follow up is the most important task.  This may
be because I don't have a great resume - this last time during the
follow up the company owner (the job offer had resumes go to the
owner) asked me several questions and we were able to have an
on-the-spot mini-interview.  At the end of the call he indicated that
the resume didn't adequately represent my qualifications and that he
would now act on it, rather than throw it away as originally intended.
During my job search several years ago, after hiring, the manager
explained that he had 300 reumes to go through.  It was easy to simply
set a bar (bachelors degree in CS, which I didn't have) and throw
everything else away.  The follow up is what got me the interview, and
ultimately the job.

Also, look in unconventional places for job offers.  My current job
was found in an article in a local business weekly newspaper. It
indicated a company, whose name I recognized, was opening a design
center in my area and hiring senior design engineers.  I am, at best,
a junior design engineer, just graduated with a some recent consulting
experience.  I applied anyway, and had the previously mentioned
conversation with the company owner.

This is a rather tedious task to do for hundreds of companies, so
instead try to focus on only a few companies.  At most I would prepare
cover letters and customize resumes for up to 5 companies per week.
This also spreads out the response so you're not trying to deal with
too many follow-ups at once.  It also enables you to change your
letters and resumes over time - mistakes you make the first round will
show up as you talk to people and your next round will improve.  I
saved the experience cover letter material (three middle paragraphs)
since a lot of it was similar between jobs and I ended up with about
15 skills and demonstrations of experience that I could quickly pull
from to generate most of the cover letter.  While it is tempting to
email hundreds of resumes since, statistically you will only get a
1-5% response rate.

I've found, however, that it's better to spend time applying to only
those companies and for those jobs that I'm truly interested in.  You
will still be a needle in the haystack of resumes the manager has to
get through, but you will also be following up.  You get to be the
1-5% of applicants that actively pursue the job.  It's easy to find a
needle in the haystack if it keeps stabbing you.

There's a lot more that you can do, but these activities have worked for me:
In the early job hunt (no degree) I sent out 50 or so generic resumes
using online job services without followup and netted 0 responses.  I
sent out 10 customized cover letters and resumes with follow up
outside of the job websites, and netted 3 face to face interviews.
In this latest job hunt (new bachelors in computer engineering) I used
the college's job system ( http://career.engin.umich.edu , if you are
interested in looking at how they do things) and requested interviews
with 10-20 companies.  I received about 5 interviews, mostly for jobs
I could do but wasn't terribly interested in.  I sent out 2-3
customized cover letters and resumes, followed up, and received 1
interview for a job I knew I would love, and am now performing.

As far as the job market in the midwest is concerned, I believe
there's a lot of opportunity, but it takes a lot of looking.  While I
interviewed with large companies I felt more comfortable with smaller
companies, and it seems like there's a lot of little companies hiring.
In many large companies you have to choose between hardware
engineering or firmware design, but in a small to moderate size
company I get to visit both sides of the design.

In regards to your current location, Digi International is a company
you might want to look into.  They have their headquarters in
Minnetonka, MN 55343.  They are a largish, publicly traded  company,
but they typically purchase smaller companies and keep them intact as
subsidiaries of Digi.  This gives you a lot of the benefits of a large
company, with a lot of the benefits of a small company (and
disadvantages of both).  It also means that you'll have to visit each
of the subsidiary websites (linked from the main website,
http://www.digi.com/ ) to find job openings.  Many of these
subsidiaries are located elsewhere (CA, TX, etc) so make sure the job
you want is still in MN.

Lastly, don't be discouraged if you find a company you like that
either has no openings, or has none that you are interested in.  Go
ahead and apply for the non-existant position under the manager you're
interested in working for.  Most managers want more resources to
complete their projects.  Many are in the process of trying to
convince their managers to hire another person.  A job search can cost
the company $10,000.  If the manager has the perfect applicant before
the job search is started, they've saved a large portion of that
initial cost, and that may be the only thing preventing them from
starting an official opening.

Good luck!

-Adam

2005\10\27@114223 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 04:21 PM 10/27/2005 +0200, you wrote:

>I would advise resume readers to keep one thing in mind: the resume
>writing might not have the same language background as you have. This
>may be rare in the USA, but it is very common in Europe.

If the supplicant has a lot of problems communicating in the working
language, even the *written* form, when s/he has plenty of time to go over
it, and plenty of time to seek reviews by native speakers, how are they
going to be able to handle a fast-paced workplace without making all kinds
of expensive errors (not to mention possibly creating giant run-on sentences)?

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
KILLspamspeffKILLspamspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com




2005\10\27@125237 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> >I would advise resume readers to keep one thing in mind: the resume
> >writing might not have the same language background as you have. This
> >may be rare in the USA, but it is very common in Europe.
>
> If the supplicant has a lot of problems communicating in the working
> language, even the *written* form, when s/he has plenty of
> time to go over
> it, and plenty of time to seek reviews by native speakers,
> how are they
> going to be able to handle a fast-paced workplace without
> making all kinds
> of expensive errors (not to mention possibly creating giant
> run-on sentences)?

The requirement that I was targeting was "(language) error-free". A
communication (written, oral, otherwise) does not need to be *language*
error-free to be effective and without *communication* (content) errors.
The non-native speaker I has in mind might not have had "plenty of time
to seek reviews by native speakers" (he might for instance have arrived
from abroad a few days ago).

One of the other advices was "content is more important than form". For
me this is such an aspect. You might disagree, and between people with
the same language background you might be right.

I have worked a few year on an international project. All communication
was required to be in English. Makes sense, that gives the best chance
that Dutch, Belgiums (of both kinds), Germans, Danes, Swedes, Itialians
and the occasional Englishman could work together. But the communication
was not required to be perfect English. Of course not, the majority of
the readers would not know the difference. But it had to be content
error free!

BTW if you want anyone to use perfect English could you (US, UK, and a
few other outbacks) please agree about what that is supposed to be,
including spelling, idom and pronounciation :)

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\10\27@144334 by Mike Hord

picon face
Below content find Vitaliy's and Olin's comments on objective.

I've always had a problem with the objective statement.  I see
it almost on par with the "References available upon request"
statement as being unnecessary resume fluff, but apparently
I'm in the minority.

I won't inflict my (current) objective statement upon you, but
perhaps a little help?  My goal with this job is to improve my
skillset, become better educated and experienced, and
hopefully do some fairly fun (cool) engineering projects along
the way.  Is that too..general?

Mike H.

{Quote hidden}

2005\10\27@151949 by olin piclist

face picon face
Mike Hord wrote:
> I won't inflict my (current) objective statement upon you, but
> perhaps a little help?  My goal with this job is to improve my
> skillset, become better educated and experienced, and
> hopefully do some fairly fun (cool) engineering projects along
> the way.  Is that too..general?

No, it's useless.  Part of the problem is that "objective" is a bad
description.  That's one reason I use "Target Position" myself.  This should
be a short statement of the kind of job you are looking for, like "Mail room
assistant", "An easy job where nobody can tell I goof off most of the day",
"CEO with private plane and minimum of $20M severance package", or whatever.
This line is used for the first pass sorting of whether the resume is for
the engineering manager, accounting manager, or the facilities department.
As an engineering hiring manager, it should also tell me if you're a
software engineer, hardware engineer, firmware, RF, or whatever specialty or
combinations of specialties.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2005\10\27@153953 by Mike Hord

picon face
On 10/27/05, Olin Lathrop <RemoveMEolin_piclistTakeThisOuTspamembedinc.com> wrote:
> Mike Hord wrote:
> > I won't inflict my (current) objective statement upon you, but
> > perhaps a little help?  My goal with this job is to improve my
> > skillset, become better educated and experienced, and
> > hopefully do some fairly fun (cool) engineering projects along
> > the way.  Is that too..general?
>
> No, it's useless.  Part of the problem is that "objective" is a bad
> description.  That's one reason I use "Target Position" myself.  This should
> be a short statement of the kind of job you are looking for, like "Mail room
> assistant", "An easy job where nobody can tell I goof off most of the day",
> "CEO with private plane and minimum of $20M severance package", or whatever.
> This line is used for the first pass sorting of whether the resume is for
> the engineering manager, accounting manager, or the facilities department.
> As an engineering hiring manager, it should also tell me if you're a
> software engineer, hardware engineer, firmware, RF, or whatever specialty or
> combinations of specialties.

AHA!  Finally, I understand.  "Embedded systems engineer developing
analog and digital hardware, as well as system firmware."

Although I've always wanted a private plane...

Mike H.

2005\10\27@154134 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Hord" <spamBeGonemike.hordspamBeGonespamgmail.com>
> Below content find Vitaliy's and Olin's comments on objective.
>
> I've always had a problem with the objective statement.  I see
> it almost on par with the "References available upon request"
> statement as being unnecessary resume fluff, but apparently
> I'm in the minority.

Mike, I too used to think that Objective was a useless part of the resume
until I had the pleasure (or misfortune) of going through hundreds of other
people's resumes. Remember that during the first pass (there are usually two
or three) resumes are scanned, not read - and the first thing that hiring
managers do is weed out incompatible candidates. You won't believe how many
times we got resumes with objectives that read "Graphics design", "PC
Repair", "Law enforcement", "Legal assistant" for positions advertised as
"Technical support" or "Firmware Development." Resumes whose objectives do
not match the position end up in the recycle bin.

Like Olin said, make sure your objective is a short statement of the kind of
job you are looking for.

Best regards,

Vitaliy

2005\10\27@154534 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 06:50 PM 10/27/2005 +0200, you wrote:


>The requirement that I was targeting was "(language) error-free". A
>communication (written, oral, otherwise) does not need to be *language*
>error-free to be effective and without *communication* (content) errors.
>The non-native speaker I has in mind might not have had "plenty of time
>to seek reviews by native speakers" (he might for instance have arrived
>from abroad a few days ago).

I've helped a few recent immigrants from South and East Asia spruce up
their resumes. In general, I tried to eliminate outright errors without
changing their words too much and without necessarily eliminating turns of
phrase that would mark their writing as that of a non-native. Otherwise
it could open the person to charges of "false advertising".

>One of the other advices was "content is more important than form". For
>me this is such an aspect. You might disagree, and between people with
>the same language background you might be right.

Form is one thing, but there are also real issues with cultural
differences and heavy accents.

>I have worked a few year on an international project. All communication
>was required to be in English. Makes sense, that gives the best chance
>that Dutch, Belgiums (of both kinds), Germans, Danes, Swedes, Itialians
>and the occasional Englishman could work together. But the communication
>was not required to be perfect English. Of course not, the majority of
>the readers would not know the difference. But it had to be content
>error free!

When there is more of a common cultural background and you can agree
to use a subset of whatever "standard English" is, that makes some sense.
It seems to be the world's second language, for better or worse. It's a
bit harder when you add more dissimilar parts of the world to the mosaic.

>BTW if you want anyone to use perfect English could you (US, UK, and a
>few other outbacks) please agree about what that is supposed to be,
>including spelling, idom and pronounciation :)

Certainly the applicant should be cut some slack in many cases, from
a "care to details" point of view, but at the same time it may be a
warning of potential problems in communication, particularly where
instructions are necessarily fairly vague (often where some customer
interaction or creativity on the part of the employee might be involved).
Good skills in other areas can compensate, to some degree, of course.

>Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
TakeThisOuTspeffEraseMEspamspam_OUTinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
->> Inexpensive test equipment & parts http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZspeff


2005\10\27@165757 by alan smith

picon face
Along with Olin's advice, to follow up, especially if an interview......and neatly handwritten thank you card....simple, but personal.....to make that second 'good' impression.

Olin Lathrop <RemoveMEolin_piclistspamTakeThisOuTembedinc.com> wrote:Mike Hord wrote:
>> Don't be afraid to send additional material (including
>> color photos of projects you have done) with your
>> resume.
>
> Very interesting. I presume the suggestion then is
> snail mailing rather than e-mailing? I prefer that myself,
> but it is just so much less gratifying. At least it forces
> a human being to touch your resume, if not read it.

I think a better approach is to put your resume on a web page with links
that provide more information on projects you've done. You can put small
thumbnail pictures on the resume, then bigger pictures with more explanation
on a separate page. Make sure the web page is neat, easy to read, and NOT
flashy. If you were going for an advertising job, flashy might be useful.
But for an engineer you want a resume whos style says "function over style".

I haven't had someone give me a resume with pictures of projects, but I
think it would make things feel more real and capture my interest for a
little while longer. Of course that will stop working when everyone does
it, but for now it sounds like a good idea.

Another important thing is to personally follow up with the hiring manager a
few days after he should have received your resume. It's amazing how many
people don't do this. Think of it from the hiring manager's point of view.
He's looking thru a stack of resumes looking for any excuse reject each one,
since the ones he doesn't reject represent an investment in what feels like
unproductive time to persue further. After the initial pass there will be a
smaller pile to phone screen. That's a hassle. This will get done in
between doing "real" work. If a candidate calls on his own accord, not only
does that show some initiative, but also saves the hassle of playing the
phone tag game. Of course if he's already firmly decided you're not the
right fit, then it will be a short phone call. Even then be polite and
thank him for his time. Don't be pushy, and accept "no" if that's the
answer. If you're lucky you might get some useful insight on why you were
rejected.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014. #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year. http://www.embedinc.com/products

2005\10\27@173648 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
> Another important thing is to personally follow up with the hiring manager
> a
> few days after he should have received your resume. It's amazing how many
> people don't do this. Think of it from the hiring manager's point of view.
> He's looking thru a stack of resumes looking for any excuse reject each
> one,
> since the ones he doesn't reject represent an investment in what feels
> like
> unproductive time to persue further. After the initial pass there will be
> a
> smaller pile to phone screen. That's a hassle. This will get done in
> between doing "real" work. If a candidate calls on his own accord, not
> only
> does that show some initiative, but also saves the hassle of playing the
> phone tag game.

One thing that I would add is that I prefer would prefer the candidate to
e-mail, rather than call me. E-mail has several important advantages: I can
read it at my leisure, spend only as much time as needed on responding (some
candidates are worse than telemarketers), and it leaves a permanent record
that I can refer back to (I can easily forget what we talked about on the
phone).

Alan gives you an insight into how the hiring process works: first, the
manager goes throught the whole pile, trying to eliminate as many candidates
as he can. Then, he compares the remaining candidates and picks out the ones
he's going to call (I usually try to keep he number down to five). After the
phone interviews, one or two candidates are selected for in-person
interviews.

A word of advice about phone interviews: be prepared. Keep notes on all
companies that you apply to, and have the job description handy. It will be
funny (not to you) when the hiring manager calls two weeks after you
applied, and you have no idea about the job nor the company.

> Of course if he's already firmly decided you're not the
> right fit, then it will be a short phone call. Even then be polite and
> thank him for his time. Don't be pushy, and accept "no" if that's the
> answer. If you're lucky you might get some useful insight on why you were
> rejected.

Alas, most of the time you will never know.

Best regards,

Vitaliy

2005\10\27@173648 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Hi Olin,

> I totally agree that spelling is important, but for a slightly different
> reason.  Anything that shows lack of attention to detail immediately tells
> me the candidate is a waste of time.  Engineering is about lots of details
> and getting them all right.  I've never seen a good sloppy engineer.  If
> someone can't even take the trouble to get a resume right when it's only
> two
> pages and they've got all the time in the world, what are they going to do
> with the critical customer job that needs to be done Friday?  Sloppiness
> also trades off the writer's time for the reader's time.  This basically
> says to anyone reading your resume "My time is more important than
> yours.".
> Duh!

Olin, you are absolutely right. I meant to explicitly say that spelling
errors on a resume in my mind equate to sloppiness (forgive me, it was late
and I was tired). The reason I mentioned in my original post is secondary
(albeit still importaint).

> Right.  It should be easy to read and neat.  However avoid gimmicks and
> "cutesy" formatting.  It's annoying to read and basically says "I think
> your
> so dumb that I can dazzle you with BS to pick me when you otherwise
> wouldn't.".  Again, duh!

True. I found that that is what bad (or newbie) graphics designers do - they
compensate for their incompetence with a myriad of different fonts, shapes,
and colors. The moral here - make your resume readable, but also keep it
simple and elegant.

> Yup, sounds about right (except I use a recycle bin, and I may pass some
> of
> the really bad ones around for a good laugh).

So I'm not the only evil hiring manager out there?!  >:-D

I remember once when I got to the bottom of the pile, my sides were hurting
from too much laughing (that particular position was in CS). I save the best
parts into a file called hiring_jewels, perhaps I will even publish it
someday. :-)))

The purpose of a resume should be to tell the employer about the candidate,
not to entertain him. Give your resume a second look before you send it in -
you'd be surprised at the blunders that you'll find.

> There is a fine line between customizing and patronizing.  In some ways I
> mistrust clearly customized resumes because it feels like I'm being told
> what the candidate thinks I want to hear.  Some amount of customization is
> a
> good idea, but that should be limited to what is emphasized or elaborated
> on
> versus just mentioned.  Never ever ever "extend" the truth.  I guarantee
> it
> will backfire.

I must totally agree with you on this one, too. When I said "customize", I
did not mean that you should invent experience, only that you should
highlight relevant experience and de-emphasize stuff that doesn't matter.

> This is one advantage of a web resume.  It is inherently more honest
> because
> you are forced to say the same thing to anyone who might look at it.

True, but too much unrelated experience can dilute a resume. I've seen
resumes that are three, and even four pages long - they are not fun to read,
and usually get tossed because I feel that a candidate with too much
experience will not stay long. If you have experience in several areas (f.e.
telecommunications, technical support, programmimng), you should emphasize
the area that is the most applicable to the advertised position. This tells
me that you've at least read the job description, and are OK with it.

> I'd go further and say never bluff.  If you're confident you can do
> something even though you've never done it, explain why.  This may even
> work
> to your advantage.  Personally I prefer intelligent people that understand
> the concepts and could learn specific systems or whatever over experience
> with those specific systems.  [snip]

I'm thinking back to the days when I was job hunting myself. I bluffed on
several occasions, got the job, and did it well. Ideally, people should
follow your advice (never bluff), but for example if I have experience with
Visual C++ and Delphi, I think it would be fair to say that I can also
program in Visual Basic (strangely, still a requirement at some companies).
Of course, be absolutely positive that you can do the job, otherwise it will
bite you in the rear behind - sooner rather than later. If in doubt, follow
Olin's advice.

> At least it's honest, but I agree with the "Duh!".  This is one I might
> pass
> around for a laugh, although I could forgive this for someone right out of
> school and might continue reading.

There is usually more than one factor that contributes to a resume ending up
in the trash bin. So I would continue reading, too - but that would count as
strike one. :-)

>> The ideal objective would be a generalized summary of the job
>> description.
>
> To an extent.  Going too far makes me think I'm being told what the
> candidate thinks I want to hear regardless of the truth.

Yes. I understand it sounds that on several occasions I suggested bending
the truth, but that is not my intent. For example, a candidate may be
interested in several different positions, so it makes sense to change the
objective accordingly. There will be times when you won't have to modify the
objective because it already fits the job description. Just be aware of the
fact that if your objective doesn't match the job description, your resume
probably won't make it to the second round.

The problem with most resumes is that their objectives are way too general.
In my opinion, it is better to go a bit too far than not far enough - at
least that would tell me that the candidate put some effort into finding out
what our company wants, instead of mass-mailing a bunch of vague
generalities.

> I have a different opinion on cover letters.  I realize they are
> considered
> the right thing to do, so therefore can't fault anyone for writing one.
> However, they are pretty much content free by definition.  I usually don't
> read them.  Mostly I toss them straight into the recyling bin and look at
> the resume.

This is one point on which I would disagree with Olin. A good cover letter
has one important piece of information that the resume can't provide me
with. If well-written, it tells me that you went the extra mile to find out
more about the company and the position, which means that (A) you are not
lazy, and (B) there is a good chance that you truly want the job. Knowing
that a candidate wants to work for my company is more important to me than
his skill set. If I have two candidates: one really excited about the job,
but with just enough experience to perform the tasks, and the other one with
lots of experience, but indifferent, whom do you think I would hire?

I can't emphasize how important point (B) is. You won't believe how much it
costs, in terms of time and money, to hire someone. Neither can you imagine
how frustrating it is when the perfect candidate you've hired a few weeks
ago decides to look for employment elsewhere. We've went through this
experience enough times to realize that we should never hire a person with
too much experience, and we try our best to figure out whether the person
really wants to work for us, or is simply looking for temporary employment.
I'm still not very good at this last part, unfortunately... :-(

> So you should write a brief cover letter because some people expect them.
> However, never put any real information only in the cover letter.  The
> resume must always stand on its own.

Yes and no. The cover letter should complement the resume. Tell me why you
want to work for my company, tell me why you want the job, show me how we
can use your experience. Above all, keep it short and sweet. This is one
place where you don't want to be bloviating.

> I consider formal advertising for a job the last resort.  I much prefer to
> get referrals from people I know.

You must have a lot of connections in the industry (something I can't
boast). For us, Monster/CareerBuilder is the first choice, followed by local
college job banks.

> Conversely, that means the best and first
> thing for a candidate to do is ask around.  Tell everyone you know you're
> looking for a job and what kind.  Don't be afraid to ask them once a month
> or so.  Most people will forget about you when they do hear of a job a few
> weeks later.  I know I've done this.

Yes, but in addition to that post your resume on Monster and CareerBuilder
(it's free), and don't be afraid to contact an employment agency. I am
willing to bet that more people get hired through formal channels than
word-of-mouth advertising.

Ask for more advice when you get closer to the interview. :-)

Best regards,

Vitaliy

2005\10\27@175248 by John J. McDonough

flavicon
face
> It's annoying to read and basically says "I think
> your so dumb that I can dazzle you with BS to pick
> me when you otherwise wouldn't.".

Most of the time, the resume goes first to the HR guy, who really is so
dumb.  That is kind of one of the problems.  It is pretty rare that the
first guy is going to be an Olin.  More likely, it will first go to some
HR guy who has no clue what the job is about and can only respond to the
buzzwords he has been fed.

If the resume escapes the HR guy's shredder, then it will most likely WILL
go to someone who has a clue.  So you need to provide enough of the
appropriate buzzwords to get to get past the HR guy, but not so much as to
turn off the technical guy (who very likely has as much patience for bull
as Olin, if not less).

--McD



2005\10\27@181403 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
----- Original Message -----
From: "John J. McDonough" <mcdEraseMEspam.....is-sixsigma.com>
> Most of the time, the resume goes first to the HR guy, who really is so
> dumb.  That is kind of one of the problems.  It is pretty rare that the
> first guy is going to be an Olin.  More likely, it will first go to some
> HR guy who has no clue what the job is about and can only respond to the
> buzzwords he has been fed.
>
> If the resume escapes the HR guy's shredder, then it will most likely WILL
> go to someone who has a clue.  So you need to provide enough of the
> appropriate buzzwords to get to get past the HR guy, but not so much as to
> turn off the technical guy (who very likely has as much patience for bull
> as Olin, if not less).

John,

Where do you get this information?

Best regards,

Vitaliy

2005\10\27@183252 by olin piclist

face picon face
alan smith wrote:
> Along with Olin's advice, to follow up, especially if an
> interview......and neatly handwritten thank you card....simple, but
> personal.....to make that second 'good' impression.

I'm not so sure about that.  It feels a lot like partonizing or brownnosing
on the receiving end.  A follow up phone call a few days after the interview
is a good idea though.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2005\10\27@202945 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 05:52 PM 10/27/2005 -0400, you wrote:
> > It's annoying to read and basically says "I think
> > your so dumb that I can dazzle you with BS to pick
> > me when you otherwise wouldn't.".
>
>Most of the time, the resume goes first to the HR guy, who really is so
>dumb.  That is kind of one of the problems.  It is pretty rare that the
>first guy is going to be an Olin.  More likely, it will first go to some
>HR guy who has no clue what the job is about and can only respond to the
>buzzwords he has been fed.
>
>If the resume escapes the HR guy's shredder, then it will most likely WILL
>go to someone who has a clue.  So you need to provide enough of the
>appropriate buzzwords to get to get past the HR guy, but not so much as to
>turn off the technical guy (who very likely has as much patience for bull
>as Olin, if not less).
>
>--McD

I think it's a good idea to put the buzzwords in a blurb at the top, and
the "meat" can go in the accomplishments section...

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
EraseMEspeffspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
->> Inexpensive test equipment & parts http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZspeff


2005\10\27@225422 by Tim N9PUZ

picon face
For a few years I was a hiring manager at a John Deere facility. This
may seem obvious but I was amazed at the resumes we received where the
resume itself contained NO contact information. The mailing address,
telephone number and email address were only listed in the cover letter.

Another item to consider is what message your email address may convey
to someone who is deciding to contact you. Over the years I can't
recall all the cute but unprofessional sounding email addresses that
came across my desk. Some favorites, with the domains omitted were
"love_muffin@...", "lamebeaver@...", and "number1programmer@...".

Even if something like one of these is your primary email address I
recommend using any one of the many free email services like hotmail,
google, or yahoo. If your name is John Smith and you're applying for a
professional position then I think "jsmith@...", "JohnSmith@..." type
addresses are much less likely to vector the reviewer to the "this
person's an idiot" interrupt.

Tim

2005\10\27@231702 by Mike Singer

picon face
Vitaliy  wrote:
> > What is your company?
> >
>
> http://www.scantool.net

After entering forum
http://www.scantool.net/forum/index.php
you can't get back to
http://www.scantool.net
by clicking "Home" button.

A bit funny to see ScanTool Dot Net company placed on PHP pages ;-)
Isn't Dot Net monopolized by MS?

Good design, by the way. Simple structure, simple colors, fonts are
size-adjustable.

Mike Singer.

PS.
I'm back, if nobody objected.
My last post six month ago was a bit over emotional.
My apologies to Olin.

2005\10\27@233814 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Oct 27, 2005, at 3:12 PM, Vitaliy wrote:
>
>> Most of the time, the resume goes first to the HR guy, who really is
>> so
>> dumb.

>> If the resume escapes the HR guy's shredder, then it will most likely
>> WILL go to someone who has a clue.  So you need to provide enough of
>> the appropriate buzzwords to get to get past the HR guy, but not so
>> much as to turn off the technical guy (who very likely has as much
>> patience for bull as Olin, if not less).
>

> Where do you get this information?

That sounds typical to me, for a medium to large size company.
ALWAYS try to get past the first-level HR people, whether that's
by finding a contact directly in engineering, or at least the HR
person who deals directly with engineering (not ALL HR people
are clueless, but HR departments tend to be collectively clueless.)
(It follows that it is much better to send in a resume specifically
mentioning a particular job advertisement than to send one in blind.)

You don't so much want to AVOID buzzwords, as to make sure that they
appear in their correct context and make sense...

BillW

2005\10\27@235737 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Oct 27, 2005, at 7:54 PM, Tim N9PUZ wrote:

> consider is what message your email address may convey to someone who
> is deciding to contact you. Over the years I can't recall all the cute
> but unprofessional sounding email addresses that came across my desk.

Alas, you can expect this to happen more, now that the internet is a
dangerous place and teens (for instance) are advised AGAINST putting
anything in their email address that might give away their actual
identity...  (although, you gotta wonder about some of the email
addresses
people seem willing to put at the top of nominally professional
emails...)

BillW

2005\10\28@000227 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Oct 27, 2005, at 8:17 PM, Mike Singer wrote:

> Isn't Dot Net monopolized by MS?
>
I don't think so.  .net was one of the original top-level domains,
wasn't it?  (although I think they had in mind a less "general purpose"
usage for it at the time.)

BillW

2005\10\28@014228 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
> A bit funny to see ScanTool Dot Net company placed on PHP pages ;-)
> Isn't Dot Net monopolized by MS?
>
> Good design, by the way. Simple structure, simple colors, fonts are
> size-adjustable.

Too bad it will soon be replaced by a totally different-looking design. :-)
The new version has been in the works for a few months now, and will replace
the old within a month.

BTW, I wish we could have gotten the scantool.com name, but it was already
taken. Hey, it wasn't supposed to become a serious business anyway...

Best regards,

Vitaliy

2005\10\28@014607 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face
Vitaliy wrote:

> SPELLING ERRORS
>
> Don't be afraid to spend some time on your resume - it is well worth
> it. My big pet peeve is spelling errors, and our company follows a
> "three strikes and you're out" policy. There's absolutely no reason
> why your resume shouldn't be error-free -- you have all the time in
> the world to proofread it, not to mention the spell checker. Why is it
> important to employers? Because individuals who read a lot make few
> spelling mistakes, and there is a direct corellation between reading
> and intelligence. Sure, there are exceptions - but they are rare.

One major exception is people with learning disabilities like dyslexia.

I have a friend who's a self-taught wizard at everything from
electronics to programming to Cisco VoIP technology, who can't spell
things correctly at all.  I learned later that he has struggled with his
own dyslexia for his entire career... through getting his degree, to
working as a network design engineer.

He understands the importance of good spelling, and in this decade,
spell-checkers are a lifesaver for day-to-day work for him, and he has
friends and collegues proof-read his larger papers.

I figure if he can do it, anyone can!

I also learned long ago, if I have an idea for a project to run by him,
it's useless for me to send him my notes -- but if I call him on the
phone and he hears a bit of passion and interest in my voice, he'll
listen for hours to my description of what I'm trying to accomplish, and
7/10 times he'll fully "get it" and have a prototype working before I
can even find the time to start on it.

Truly an amazing guy, and it took me almost 10 years of knowing him
before he confided in me about the dyslexia.  That particular disability
can carry an enormous stigma with it in a technical career!  When he was
studying for some industry certifications in the IT world, he was truly
frightened about the amount of background reading he had to do to see if
he was ready to take the exams.

Even though I have no reading problems, I've always sided toward
auditory learning styles, and traditional mathmatics courses drive me
batty.

I found in college I had no problem understanding the material if
someone could articulate it in understandable English, but the vast
majority of math Professors, Teaching Assistants, and helpers are very
far on the other side of the spectrum as visual learners, and have a
very difficult time articulating what they truly do know and understand
about the math they're trying to teach.

I say "trying" to teach because my opinion of the matter is that if you
can't get a fully-auditory learning person through a standard college
level algebra class (just an example of a "simple" math class) with a
good grade, you might be good at math, but you're not yet a good
*teacher* of math.  Professional teachers know about learning styles and
adjust accordingly.  TA's typically aren't professional teachers and are
going to move along as soon as the doctoral or post-doc work at a
particular institution is complete.

Unfortunately today in the U.S., many math departments also have a large
percentage of people from non-English speaking countries who are working
their way through academic research here in the U.S. who have heavy
accents, and the accent and the inability to clearly articulate their
knowledge is a huge detriment for an auditory learner in an already
heavily visual environment.  It truly can make the student feel
overwhelmed by the sensory input on even the simplest topics, if they
can't fully understand what the instructor is saying.

Luckily I know this about myself, and can plan appropriately if I ever
find myself in any math course structured this way.   I haven't been in
one in a very long time, however.

Nate

2005\10\28@022048 by D. Jay Newman

flavicon
face
> I say "trying" to teach because my opinion of the matter is that if you
> can't get a fully-auditory learning person through a standard college
> level algebra class (just an example of a "simple" math class) with a
> good grade, you might be good at math, but you're not yet a good
> *teacher* of math.  Professional teachers know about learning styles and

This may sound old-fashioned of me, but I think that students are in
college, to learn, not to be taught. This means that knowledge is not
spoon-fed to you like it was in elementary school, but rather presented
for you to take or not as you choose. In college you need to not only
read *all* the material and do the problems, but you need to research
on your own. If you're not doing that, you're wasting everybody's time.

If you don't come to college to learn (and I am talking both of students
*and* professors) you shouldn't be there. IMNSHO, of course.

It's a harsh statement, but I think that the good teachers need to be
in the K-12 environment. After that schooling is optional and if the
student doesn't want to learn, why should the "system" help them?

> Unfortunately today in the U.S., many math departments also have a large
> percentage of people from non-English speaking countries who are working
> their way through academic research here in the U.S. who have heavy
> accents, and the accent and the inability to clearly articulate their
> knowledge is a huge detriment for an auditory learner in an already

Yes. I still remember a course in mathematical mechanics where it took
me several days to realize what "angle arfa in the plan of the blackboard"
meant. I got the source material because I actually read the books and
did the homework assignments. I just couldn't understand what the teacher
(a full professor BTW) was saying.
--
D. Jay Newman           ! Politicians and civilizations come and
RemoveMEjayEraseMEspamEraseMEsprucegrove.com     ! go but the engineers and machinists
http://enerd.ws/robots/ ! make progress

2005\10\28@030307 by Ruben Jönsson

flavicon
face
> Most of the time, the resume goes first to the HR guy, who really is so
> dumb.  That is kind of one of the problems.  It is pretty rare that the
> first guy is going to be an Olin.  More likely, it will first go to some
> HR guy who has no clue what the job is about and can only respond to the
> buzzwords he has been fed.
>
> If the resume escapes the HR guy's shredder, then it will most likely WILL
> go to someone who has a clue.  So you need to provide enough of the
> appropriate buzzwords to get to get past the HR guy, but not so much as to
> turn off the technical guy (who very likely has as much patience for bull
> as Olin, if not less).
>
> --McD

This may mork to your advantage. Do you really want to work for a company that has HR people that really don't understand what to look for, how to find the gem... I mean, were would that leave the company in a few years, only hiring people that know the right buzzwords instead of people with real knowledge and experience.

Just a thought anyway.

But is it really that bad? With all the work and costs involved in hiring new emplyees, wouldn't it make sense to have someone that knows what to look for handle this all the way? Even for a big company.

/Ruben


==============================
Ruben Jönsson
AB Liros Electronic
Box 9124, 200 39 Malmö, Sweden
TEL INT +46 40142078
FAX INT +46 40947388
RemoveMErubenspam_OUTspamKILLspampp.sbbs.se
==============================

2005\10\28@040127 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
----- Original Message -----
From: "D. Jay Newman" <RemoveMEjayTakeThisOuTspamspamsprucegrove.com>
> This may sound old-fashioned of me, but I think that students are in
> college, to learn, not to be taught. This means that knowledge is not
> spoon-fed to you like it was in elementary school, but rather presented
> for you to take or not as you choose. In college you need to not only
> read *all* the material and do the problems, but you need to research
> on your own. If you're not doing that, you're wasting everybody's time.
>
> If you don't come to college to learn (and I am talking both of students
> *and* professors) you shouldn't be there. IMNSHO, of course.
>
> It's a harsh statement, but I think that the good teachers need to be
> in the K-12 environment. After that schooling is optional and if the
> student doesn't want to learn, why should the "system" help them?

Jay,

I must disagree with you. Professors' job is to teach, that's what they are
there for. If it was otherwise, why go to college? Why not just read the
book on your own?

Too bad that there aren't many good professors (at least not at the colleges
I attended). Sure, most of them know the material, but what good is it to me
that *they* know it, if they can't pass that knowledge on to me?

There are only three professors that I can think of (all three from
unrelated disciplines) that both knew the material, and were good at
teaching.

Best regards,

Vitaliy

2005\10\28@041100 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Oct 27, 2005, at 11:59 PM, Ruben Jönsson wrote:

> his may mork to your advantage. Do you really want to work for a
> company
> that has HR people that really don't understand what to look for

Sometimes you don't have much choice.


> I mean, were would that leave the company in a few years, only hiring
> people that know the right buzzwords instead of people with real
> knowledge and experience.

No, the people without the real experience are still weeded out
during interviews and etc with the actual engineers.  You just miss
the possibly excellent people that don't get past the HR screeners.
>
> But is it really that bad?

Yes, I think so.  Back in the boom days, we had an employee referral
program.  Refer someone and you'd get a bonus if they were hired.  In
the early days we got LOTS of good people via the referral plan.  Then
there started to be a lot of complaints from the people who had submitted
referrals that their friends were never contacted, their resumes never
appeared in the "books" handed to managers.  This in spite of REAL
referrals (not just "here's this guy I know; see if you can find a spot."
REALLY strong recommendations.)  If HR can screw up something like that,
it's extremely easy to believe that they'll miss good people with only ok
resumes that didn't come with recommendations...

> wouldn't it make sense to have someone that knows what to look for
> handle this all the way? Even for a big company.

Oh sure.  They're just about as hard to find as stellar engineers,
though (except they SURELY know how to pad their resumes with the right
buzzwords!)  And unfortunately, once a company gets large (and especially
if it's "hot", there's a lot of resumes that really do need to be thrown
away...

BillW

2005\10\28@042416 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>The purpose of a resume should be to tell the employer
>about the candidate, not to entertain him. Give your
>resume a second look before you send it in - you'd be
>surprised at the blunders that you'll find.

Not only that, run it past the wife, girlfriend, or some other person who
knows you well, and you will be surprised at the errors or shades of meaning
they will pick up. This can result in a subtle rewording of a sentence or
two that makes all the difference.

Bit like when a colleague had his wife walk out on him. He went to the
lawyer to get a letter drafted that said "this and that, but I don't want to
say 'the other'". Getting those shades of meaning can make a big difference
in your resume.

2005\10\28@043413 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> I must disagree with you. Professors' job is to teach, that's
> what they are there for.

to do research, to write books, to manage a department, to conduct
exams, ...

> If it was otherwise, why go to college? Why not
> just read the book on your own?

You could very well do that, if you are of the visual-learning type. I
did for a number of subjects, with varying degrees of succes.

> Too bad that there aren't many good professors (at least not
> at the colleges I attended). Sure, most of them know the material, but
what
> good is it to me that *they* know it, if they can't pass that
knowledge on to me?

The universities have to do with what they can get. I agree a professor
that knows his stuff and can teach well is nice, but given the choice I
would prefer someone who just knows his stuff (and can't teach) over
someone who just can teach (and doesn't know his stuff).

> There are only three professors that I can think of (all three from
> unrelated disciplines) that both knew the material, and were good at
> teaching.

They must have loved the job. They would probably be better paye when
working elsewhere.

But it is funny: I teach at the rough equivalent of a university. I have
my 'know the suff' degree, but no 'know how to teach' degree at all. I
would not be allowed to teach at a highschool or even a kindergarten,
but university is allowed.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\10\28@054705 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Hello Wouter,

>> I must disagree with you. Professors' job is to teach, that's
>> what they are there for.
>
> to do research, to write books, to manage a department, to conduct
> exams, ...

To quote Goldratt's Jonah, "remember the goal." :-) All the things you
mentioned do not matter if the students aren't learning.

>> If it was otherwise, why go to college? Why not
>> just read the book on your own?
>
> You could very well do that, if you are of the visual-learning type. I
> did for a number of subjects, with varying degrees of succes.

Same here, but for the vast majority of subjects, I feel that I learn more,
faster when someone teaches it to me. Having to read about the subject to
understand it should be the last resort.

{Quote hidden}

That's why I said it takes both. And if you take what you said to the
extreme, it doesn't matter if the guy knows the stuff.

>> There are only three professors that I can think of (all three from
>> unrelated disciplines) that both knew the material, and were good at
>> teaching.
>
> They must have loved the job. They would probably be better paye when
> working elsewhere.

The first one was a Calculus professor, and her biggest virtue was her
patience. She would explain the material in five different ways if it was
necessary, to get it through our thick heads. :-) I think she worked at that
particular university because her husband worked there, too - and I bet the
pay wasn't too bad.

The second was a guy of German and Austrian ancestry, born in Mexico city,
who was living in the US as a permanent resident and teaching at a community
college. He said his folks back home though he was filthy rich (of course,
he was making more here than he was able to get in Mexico), but I wouldn't
say that he was passionate about the subject (economics) in the traditional
sense. He just knew the material very well, and was good at teaching it.

The third one taught project management and philosophy, and he explicitly
said that he considers himself a "lever puller" and finds fulfillment
outside of his job.

BTW, good professors are often not the most popular, and bad (in my opinion)
professors are. As long as they spend the class time telling stories and
give easy exams.

> But it is funny: I teach at the rough equivalent of a university. I have
> my 'know the suff' degree, but no 'know how to teach' degree at all. I
> would not be allowed to teach at a highschool or even a kindergarten,
> but university is allowed.

Makes sense. :-) Presumably, university students *want* to learn.

Best regards,

Vitaliy

2005\10\28@063540 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> >> I must disagree with you. Professors' job is to teach, that's
> >> what they are there for.
> >
> > to do research, to write books, to manage a department, to conduct
> > exams, ...
>
> To quote Goldratt's Jonah, "remember the goal." :-)

That is of course valid from the macroscopic point of view, but you
can't blame the professor for doing what he is payed for (= on which his
salary depends). That is often not what you would like to get from him.

I teach. I also have to do administrative chores. I do get feedback from
my bosses when I forget the administrative stuff or do it badly. I get
almost zero feedback from my bosses about what I do in class :(

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\10\28@102627 by D. Jay Newman

flavicon
face
> Jay,
>
> I must disagree with you. Professors' job is to teach, that's what they are
> there for. If it was otherwise, why go to college? Why not just read the
> book on your own?

Feel free to disagree with me. As I stated, my opinions are old-fashioned,
and they go back to when colleges were first developed.

The advantage to going to a college/university is that the student
has access to professors who are (theoretically) experts in their
fields. When choosing upper level classes I *always* tried to find
publications written by the professors in order to find the ones
that seemed to know what they were talking about.

> Too bad that there aren't many good professors (at least not at the colleges
> I attended). Sure, most of them know the material, but what good is it to me
> that *they* know it, if they can't pass that knowledge on to me?

There is a reason that they are called "professors" rather than teachers.
Also note that in US colleges, an "instructor" is ranked well below
a professor. Further note that in the US, there is not education degree
required to be a college professor (as there is to teach in K-12).

And how did you attempt to get them to "pass that knowledge" to you? Did
you go to the professors during office hours and talk to them one on one?
Did you ask them for further readings on the subject?

> There are only three professors that I can think of (all three from
> unrelated disciplines) that both knew the material, and were good at
> teaching.

Yes, I had a few also. Most failed to make tenure and eventually left
the university for which I was working.
--
D. Jay Newman           ! Politicians and civilizations come and
EraseMEjayspamspamspamBeGonesprucegrove.com     ! go but the engineers and machinists
http://enerd.ws/robots/ ! make progress

2005\10\28@111034 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> > There are only three professors that I can think of (all three from
> > unrelated disciplines) that both knew the material, and
> were good at
> > teaching.
>
> Yes, I had a few also. Most failed to make tenure and eventually left
> the university for which I was working.

At the university I attended there happened to be a few professors left
from the early days of computing. I recall 4 of them, all with at least
some (national, maybe even some international) reputation, and all IMHO
very good instructors. vdPoel constructed one of the first computers in
my country, Hertzberg was know for the computer break-ins he let his
students perform for getting a grade, <forgot his name> had been
involved in PDP-11 development, and Meertens was one of the developers
of ABC, which eventually evolved into Python.

But there were also large numbers of pure nitwits who could only recite
the course material. But shit happens, everywhere.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\10\28@111956 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
> Feel free to disagree with me. As I stated, my opinions are old-fashioned,
> and they go back to when colleges were first developed.

The Middle Ages? ;-))))

By the way, to tie this subjects with economics, Adam Smith had a lot to say about lazy and/or incompetent professors. Very interesting reading, considering he published his book in 1776.

> The advantage to going to a college/university is that the student
> has access to professors who are (theoretically) experts in their
> fields. When choosing upper level classes I *always* tried to find
> publications written by the professors in order to find the ones
> that seemed to know what they were talking about.

Makes sense. But I have one "but" (below).

> There is a reason that they are called "professors" rather than teachers.

>From dictionary.com:

pro·fes·sor    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (pr-fsr)
n.
- A college or university teacher who ranks above an associate professor.
- A teacher or instructor.
- One who professes.

> Also note that in US colleges, an "instructor" is ranked well below
> a professor.

I use the terms interchangeably. My instructors held PhDs, had the title of Professor, wrote textbooks - the whole nine yards. If the term "instructor" is confusing to you, I will use "professor" instead.

> Further note that in the US, there is not education degree
> required to be a college professor (as there is to teach in K-12).

According to Wouter, the same situation exists in Holland.

> And how did you attempt to get them to "pass that knowledge" to you? Did
> you go to the professors during office hours and talk to them one on one?
> Did you ask them for further readings on the subject?

Let's be practical. Do you expect *every* student to go their professor and talk to him/her one-on-one? Of course I asked for help when I was stuck, but you can't expect a student to do that every day. I was lucky - my university had an upper limit of 40 students per class group (by the 7th semester, some classes boasted a 1:1 professor/student ratio :-). I can only imagine what it would be like for an auditorium of 100+ people, but I think it's reasonable to assume that one-on-one instruction is not an option.

Learning by reading a book on my own begs the question - why do I need the professor at all? Why attend college, if I can study in the comfort of my home?

The bottom line is, in order to be a good professor one must be a good communicator. If she is not a good communicator, she can be a good scientist, but will remain a mediocre professor. Students do not pay tens (hundreds?) of thousands of dollars so their professors can conduct research and pursue their own interests.

>> unrelated disciplines) that both knew the material, and were good at
>> teaching.
>
> Yes, I had a few also. Most failed to make tenure and eventually left
> the university for which I was working.

Do you mean to imply that there is a positive correlation between the two? Introverts focus on their work and get grants and tenure, and extroverts are incompatible with the academia?

Best regards,

Vitaliy

2005\10\28@114423 by gacrowell

flavicon
face
> >Most of the time, the resume goes first to the HR guy, who
> really is so
> >dumb.  That is kind of one of the problems.  
> >--McD
>
> I think it's a good idea to put the buzzwords in a blurb at
> the top, and
> the "meat" can go in the accomplishments section...
> Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."        

In a large company, all the resumes in the 'pile' will be scanned for
keywords and only those with matching keywords will be forwarded to the
hiring managers for closer inspection.  Your keyword section should
contain all your appropriate acronyms, *and* their full text expansion.


Once we were specifically looking for someone with DSP experience, and
HR wasn't coming up with any good candidates.  When we started looking
at the same files ourselves, we found a guy who practically wrote the
DSP book, only on his resume, he had always said "Digital Signal
Processing", never "DSP".  HR had never connected the two.

Gary Crowell
Micron Technology

2005\10\28@125529 by D. Jay Newman

flavicon
face
> > Yes, I had a few also. Most failed to make tenure and eventually left
> > the university for which I was working.
>
> Do you mean to imply that there is a positive correlation between the two?
> Introverts focus on their work and get grants and tenure, and extroverts are
> incompatible with the academia?

This seems to be the case at research colleges.

Some people are better fitted for teaching colleges (which are considered
lower on the accademic scale, but the teachers usually *teach* rather
than spend their time publishing).
--
D. Jay Newman           ! Politicians and civilizations come and
RemoveMEjayKILLspamspamsprucegrove.com     ! go but the engineers and machinists
http://enerd.ws/robots/ ! make progress

2005\10\28@140036 by Padu

picon face
Back to "Objectives", what do you guys think about it: instead of having a
"Objective" section, have one that looks like this:

Dream Job
One that allows me to create solutions for challenging applications,
involving technologies such as automation, robotics, embedded applications
and complex systems. My dream job should have a friendly and fast-paced
environment where knowledge is freely floating around team members.





I was thinking about it, and while it is my absolutely true dream job,
perhaps it is too restrictive for a miriad of other opportunities that may
be interesting to me as well. Sometimes we don't get a dream job, but we get
one that pays my children milk.



By the way, such section would be on a online resume, so no opportunities
for prospective company customization. I'm not actively searching for a job,
but all this discussion motivated me to update my dusty resumee and create
an online version of it.





Cheers





Padu

2005\10\28@152348 by Peter

picon face

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Tim N9PUZ wrote:

<snip>
> Even if something like one of these is your primary email address I recommend
> using any one of the many free email services like hotmail, google, or yahoo.
> If your name is John Smith and you're applying for a professional position
> then I think "jsmith@...", "JohnSmith@..." type addresses are much less
> likely to vector the reviewer to the "this person's an idiot" interrupt.

I have been following this thread, and I would like to comment that in
2005 I don't think that it's feasible to have an email address like
'John.DoeSTOPspamspamspam_OUTyahoo.com'. Capitalization etc is not accepted by many (most)
hosts that offer email service, besides most names being taken already.
*But* the real name can appear properly before it, e.g. "John Doe"
<spamBeGonejd123STOPspamspamEraseMEfoo.bar.com> is about the best one can expect to achieve under
normal conditions.

Peter

2005\10\28@153004 by Peter

picon face

On Fri, 28 Oct 2005, Mike Singer wrote:

> A bit funny to see ScanTool Dot Net company placed on PHP pages ;-)
> Isn't Dot Net monopolized by MS?

.net is a valid internet domain unrelated to the dot.net technology
(which tries to use the popularity of the .net domain as an advertising
stunt - .net exists since the Internet went public just like .com and
both predate the dot.com and dot.net commercial offensives).

Peter

2005\10\28@154847 by Bob Barr

flavicon
face
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 22:41:19 -0700, "Vitaliy" wrote:

<snip>
>
>BTW, I wish we could have gotten the scantool.com name, but it was already
>taken. Hey, it wasn't supposed to become a serious business anyway...
>

The scantool.com site comes up for renewal in about 2 weeks. If they
miss their renewal, you may be able to get it after all. :=)

That's not very likely to happen but it is possible.


Regards, Bob

2005\10\28@154937 by olin piclist

face picon face
Padu wrote:
> Dream Job
> One that allows me to create solutions for challenging applications,
> involving technologies such as automation, robotics, embedded
> applications and complex systems. My dream job should have a friendly
> and fast-paced environment where knowledge is freely floating around
> team members.

This sucks, but it might be good for a laugh.

First, the heading "dream job" means your trying to be cutesy.  I hate that,
since its sortof feels like trickery.  Second it makes you sound not real or
clueless at best.  Third, since you're calling it a dream job, you are just
fishing for jobs and haven't bothered to read what I'm actually looking for.
Come back when you actually want to work here.  Fourth, you've just raised
the hassle level of your resume by doing something non-standard.  I'm
thinking "what an ---hole" as I grudginly might read the rest.  Fifth, the
description is way too long.  Sixth, I read the first line and I still don't
know what job position you are looking for.  Software engineer?  Hardware
engineer?  Technician?  Mail room assistant?  Janitor?  What an ---hole.
Seventh, I've read the whole description and *still* don't know what job
position you are looking for.  Something envolving several technologies.
Gee, that narrows it right down.  Eigth, the last sentence is totally
content free.  As apposed to what?  Do you think anyone will say they want
to work in an unfriendly environment that's slow-paced where knowledge is
tightly held from them?  *Think* about it.

I can't tell what kind of job you are really looking for, but here are some
examples:

Desired Position:
Senior engineer that designs analog and digital hardware and firmware for
embedded systems and can coordinate projects at the technical level.

Desired Position:
Entry level firmware engineer specializing in small microcontrollers in
embedded systems.

Desired Position:
Manager of embedded system engineering group with high level architectural
responsibility.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2005\10\28@162602 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Thu, 2005-10-27 at 15:12 -0700, Vitaliy wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John J. McDonough" <KILLspammcdspamBeGonespamis-sixsigma.com>
> > Most of the time, the resume goes first to the HR guy, who really is so
> > dumb.  That is kind of one of the problems.  It is pretty rare that the
> > first guy is going to be an Olin.  More likely, it will first go to some
> > HR guy who has no clue what the job is about and can only respond to the
> > buzzwords he has been fed.
> >
> > If the resume escapes the HR guy's shredder, then it will most likely WILL
> > go to someone who has a clue.  So you need to provide enough of the
> > appropriate buzzwords to get to get past the HR guy, but not so much as to
> > turn off the technical guy (who very likely has as much patience for bull
> > as Olin, if not less).
>
> John,
>
> Where do you get this information?

I don't know where he got it, but that's EXACTLY how it works at the
company I work for.

Medium to large sized companies have an "HR" department which receives
resumes. They sort them, eliminate the ones that don't match the
position, and forward what's left to the person offering the job.

This process RELIES on "buzzwords". If you're applying to a job that
says "computer science" degree, and you have a "computer engineering"
degree, you're most likely binned. If the position requires "8051
experience", and you put "Intel micro-controller experience", you're
out.

Obviously, if you manage to get through the HR department and end up in
the hands of the person offering the position buzzwords become less
important and content becomes much higher on the importance scale.

TTYL

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\10\28@163634 by Peter

picon face

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, William Chops Westfield wrote:

> On Oct 27, 2005, at 8:17 PM, Mike Singer wrote:
>
>> Isn't Dot Net monopolized by MS?
>>
> I don't think so.  .net was one of the original top-level domains,
> wasn't it?  (although I think they had in mind a less "general purpose"
> usage for it at the time.)

Imho they also had in mind a more general usage for the word 'windows'
when they coined it. Not to mention 'vista' or 'longhorn'. Imho choosing
dictionary words and trademarking them should be illegal. At least, 'dot
com' and 'dot net' use two common usage words in association, in a way
that is not used in common speech.

After all, trademarking a word that is in a public domain dictionary is
a violation of that (public domain) intellectual property (and that
includes all declinations of the word, such as the plural, which in fact
*are* mentioned in the dictionary). First your windows, then your genes.

If you want to know why, type 'windows cleaner' (or 'windows cleaners')
into google and find the liquid product you are after if you can. The
fact that this time the trademark applies to the plural of the word, is
a lucky coincidence ('window cleaner' yields the expected result).

Not only does the trademark on a dictionary word apply in the case of
'Windows', but it has been used to successfully sue in US courts at
least once (see the 'Lindows' case), thus setting a precedent in the
legal system, and ensuring that this might occur again. As it is now,
phrases like 'Windows must be inspected by qualified inspectors'
may represent a trademark violation.

The next time, it won't likely be so good. So I hope it will be called
'vistas' and not 'vista'. Keeping fingers crossed (remember when a North
American telecom company trademarked the words 'push to talk' on
cellular phones ? - at the time I suggested that the PTT button on
radios be called YY (for yakyak)).

Vista entry in Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vista

mostly wrong. Vista means 'view' in Spanish afaik and it has a specific
meaning in English (as in beautiful view). Google does better:

http://www.google.co.il/search?hl=en&hs=Cmu&oi=defmore&defl=en&q=define:vista

and does not mention Vista. The key was 'define:vista' (using Vista
gives the same answer) and the definition comes from the Cmu dictionary
(?) if I read the query string right.

Peter

2005\10\28@164818 by Padu

picon face
From: "Olin Lathrop"

> This sucks, but it might be good for a laugh.
>

Thanks for the reply, wow, what a slap in the face for a friday afternoon, I
guess I asked for that. Luckily not everyone hiring people are as arrogant
as you are, but some of what you said makes sense, so no offense taken for
the half dozen ---holes.

> First, the heading "dream job" means your trying to be cutesy.  I hate
> that, since its sortof feels like trickery.

No it doesn't, it may appear to you, but it is honestly my dream job.

> Second it makes you sound not real or
> clueless at best.  Third, since you're calling it a dream job, you are
> just
> fishing for jobs and haven't bothered to read what I'm actually looking
> for.
> Come back when you actually want to work here.

As you didn't bother to read my last statement, you are correct, the
intention here is to post the resume online, therefore I cannot guess what
people looking at it are looking for.

> Fourth, you've just raised
> the hassle level of your resume by doing something non-standard.

What's the problem with non-standard? A Resume is your personal advertising.
If your resumee doesn't stand from others on your so called first pile, it
will probably be trashed away very quickly.

{Quote hidden}

Thanks for the examples, but these are even more restrict than what I
originally wrote. That was exactly my question... what kind of objective you
write on a resume that will sit online?





2005\10\28@165207 by Peter

picon face

On Fri, 28 Oct 2005, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

>> I must disagree with you. Professors' job is to teach, that's
>> what they are there for.
>
> to do research, to write books, to manage a department, to conduct
> exams, ...

You are quoting just so many reasons for going to a less well known $pay
school where the school is interested in earning money from tuition fees
and does not treat students as cattle that must pass the labyrinth to
get the prize mark burned into their hide. That kind of school really
pays attention to what the students say about their *teachers* (and I
do not say professors on purpose here).

Peter

2005\10\28@170605 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> What's the problem with non-standard? A Resume is your
> personal advertising.
> If your resumee doesn't stand from others on your so called
> first pile, it
> will probably be trashed away very quickly.

There is a thin line between "interesting - let's keep this one" and
"what the hell is he trying to say - I can't figure it out, dump this,
there are bound to be CVs that are easier to read". The optimal balance
depends on the culture of the company.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\10\28@174134 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> ... I don't think that it's feasible to have an email address like
> 'EraseMEJohn.DoespamEraseMEyahoo.com'. Capitalization etc is not accepted by many
> (most) hosts that offer email service,

You can randomly capitalise characters in an email address almost
universally (I'm sure their will be exceptions and the standard
probably says you shouldn't do it) and it still works. eg JohnDoe /
JOHNDOE / jOHndoE / johndoe all work the same for an ISP assigned
address of johndoe. You may not get away with eg YaHOo.cOm (but my ISP
accepts that)(and in this context you'd not want to do that anyway)..

> besides most names being taken already.

GMail seems easier than many to get a reasonable name from. Maybe due
to a smaller user base so far?





2005\10\28@174647 by olin piclist

face picon face
Padu wrote:
> Thanks for the reply, wow, what a slap in the face for a friday
> afternoon, I guess I asked for that. Luckily not everyone hiring
> people are as arrogant as you are,

Excuuuuse me, but you asked.

> but some of what you said makes
> sense, so no offense taken for the half dozen ---holes.

Read what I wrote carefully and you'll see I wasn't calling you names, but
rather trying to illustrate the thought process of a potential hiring
manager.

>> First, the heading "dream job" means your trying to be cutesy.  I
>> hate that, since its sortof feels like trickery.
>
> No it doesn't,

You have no way of saying what it feels like to me.  At best you can say it
wouldn't feel that way to you or that you think it wouldn't feel that way to
others.  The fact remains that it *does* feel that way to me.

> it may appear to you, but it is honestly my dream job.

You're completely missing the point.  Try reading what I actually said.
Whether the description matches your dream job is irrelevant.  The point is
the heading "dream job" on a resume doesn't work in your favor.

> As you didn't bother to read my last statement, you are correct, the
> intention here is to post the resume online, therefore I cannot guess
> what people looking at it are looking for.

I was looking at this as a resume I'd received from you for a specific job.
Of course that's how everyone will read it.  You do have to be more general
on a web resume, but I'd still be more concrete.

>> Fourth, you've just raised
>> the hassle level of your resume by doing something non-standard.
>
> What's the problem with non-standard?

Irritation due to something out of process and because it feels like the
candidate is trying to get in by being sneaky instead of on merit.

> A Resume is your personal
> advertising. If your resumee doesn't stand from others on your so
> called first pile, it will probably be trashed away very quickly.

Yes but it needs to stand out in *content*, not style.

> Thanks for the examples, but these are even more restrict than what I
> originally wrote.

Glad you noticed, since that was rather the point.

> That was exactly my question... what kind of
> objective you write on a resume that will sit online?

You have to make up your mind what kind of job you want, whether on line or
not.  Obviously you can't taylor to a specific advertised position, but you
have to come accross knowing what you want.  You might be able to say
something like "capable of either lead engineer or engineering manager role"
if there is recent experience to back up both of those, but even that is a
stretch.  Anyone hiring for either position will wonder how committed you
would be to it and if you'd be always stepping on the toes of whoever is
performing the other role.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2005\10\28@180252 by James Humes

picon face
Just so I can have my ego raped at piclister's whims, here is the objective
from my actual resume...
Keep in mind that I'm a math major++, ie.. no ABET accredited engineering
degree and I'm fresh grad (may 2k5). I've ended up in an EE/embedded systems
position.
Objective: To find long-term employment in the technical sector that allows
me to exercise latitude among my skill sets in electrical engineering, math,
physics, and computer science in an involved, head and hands on manner while
gaining specialized experience in an engineering related discipline.



On 10/28/05, Olin Lathrop <@spam@olin_piclist@spam@spamspam_OUTembedinc.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2005\10\28@182215 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face
James Humes wrote:

> Objective: To find long-term employment in the technical sector that allows
>me to exercise latitude among my skill sets in electrical engineering, math,
>physics, and computer science in an involved, head and hands on manner while
>gaining specialized experience in an engineering related discipline.
>  
>
Less wordy.

"Long-term technical work that utilizes my electrical engineering, math,
physics, and computer science skills."

Comments:

1. Be frank but brief later in the resume/CV about what "long-term"
means, or drop it and replace it with "full-time".
2. Everyone expects you're going to have your head on, and your hands in
anything you do.  And if you're not involved, you're fired anyway.  Drop
that sentence.
3. Everyone also knows that every job you work at gives you specialized
experience in whatever field the job is in.  Drop that one, too.
4. After this opening, expound on your skillset in those four
disciplines (be specific), and relate those skills to the job you're
specifically applying for.

Nate

2005\10\28@183248 by Padu

picon face
From: "Olin Lathrop"
<snip>
>>> First, the heading "dream job" means your trying to be cutesy.  I
>>> hate that, since its sortof feels like trickery.
>>
>> No it doesn't,
>
> You have no way of saying what it feels like to me.  At best you can say
> it
> wouldn't feel that way to you or that you think it wouldn't feel that way
> to
> others.  The fact remains that it *does* feel that way to me.
>

No, you have no way of saying that I'm trying to be cutesy... you should've
said "it seems to me that...". No problems if it "feel" like it does, and
thanks for pointing that as it may be the case that others may share the
same opinion, but it definitely doesn't mean I'm trying to be trickery, I
know myself better than anybody.

<snip>

{Quote hidden}

Putting more thought on that, now I believe that the best thing to do on a
online resume is to eliminate that section altogether. The truth is that I'm
not actively searching for a job right now, so I don't exactly know what is
the desired position, although I have an idea of what it should be.

{Quote hidden}

My point is that merit will be checked later, but if you can't make your
resume stand out from the rest, at least to have an opportunity to be
checked, then don't even waste your time making and sending one. I'm not
advocating for a resume full of fireworks with no content, just something
that will make your resume different from the others and have a chance to be
reviewed. There are many ways of doing it without being annyoing.

<snip>


I'm in a dilemma in my carrer. I have a very good experience in developing
commercial applications (11 year), reasonable good experience on project
management (5 years) and very limited experience with
hardware/firmware/embedded development (started last year). While I don't
want to be an electrical engineer, I'd like to switch my carrer towards
working more with embedded systems, software-hardware interfacing, robotics
and automation. I got bored of creating the same old applications that are
restricted to the virtual world. I've been preparing myself for that
shift... for example my graduation thesis is a hands on experience on
creating a mobile robot from scratch, and I'm learning a lot from that, but
I'm well aware that professional experience is a heavy weight on ones
resume.


Padu

2005\10\28@183334 by James Newton, Host

face picon face
May just be my perception, but the word "latitude" brings up pictures of you
doing what you want rather than doing what I need you to do. May I suggest
something like "...that will make use of my varied skill sets in elect...."

One thing I always look for in a resume when I happen to be involved in
hiring (not that I've hired anyone in a few years) is some mention of
problem solving or trouble shooting or resolving challenges. The objective
line strikes me as a good place to put that. "A challenging position where I
can bring my skills in blah, blah to solving new and interesting
problems...."



---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2005\10\29@141339 by Peter

picon face


On Sat, 29 Oct 2005, Russell McMahon wrote:

{Quote hidden}

I don't know about GMail but most email services you can sign up for
have some restrictions in what you can put in the name part (the detail
actually, not the user name).

Peter


'[OT] Job hunt advice'
2005\11\01@145433 by M. Adam Davis
face picon face
On 10/29/05, Peter <.....plpspam_OUTspamactcom.co.il> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

The key is that according to http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc822.html ,
email names (like domain names and field names) are case insensitive
(section 3.4.7).  While the server may only accept TakeThisOuTadavisKILLspamspamspamubasics.com
as the name it sets up for the account, when it receives an email for
ADavis, aDavis, AdAvIs or any other case permutation it is supposed to
accept it for the adavis account.

The services themselves may have additional (silly) restrictions for
what name you can set up, and perhaps these restrictions are what
you're running into - but I've yet to see a system that rejects
incoming email because of case issues.  Try it out with your own
email, or even the .....PICListspamRemoveMEmit.edu.

-Adam

2005\11\01@202211 by Jose Da Silva

flavicon
face
On November 1, 2005 11:54 am, M. Adam Davis wrote:
> The key is that according to http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc822.html ,
> email names (like domain names and field names) are case insensitive
> (section 3.4.7).  While the server may only accept RemoveMEadavisspamspamBeGoneubasics.com
> as the name it sets up for the account, when it receives an email for
> ADavis, aDavis, AdAvIs or any other case permutation it is supposed
> to accept it for the adavis account.
>
> The services themselves may have additional (silly) restrictions for
> what name you can set up, and perhaps these restrictions are what
> you're running into - but I've yet to see a system that rejects
> incoming email because of case issues.  Try it out with your own
> email, or even the spamBeGonePICList@spam@spamspam_OUTmit.edu.

Your mileage may vary.
I tend to like uppercase/lowercase mixtures and have run into domains
which seem to throw the email back.  In one instance, I would run into
acceptance and occasional denial for one local (large) ISP and have to
conclude some of their servers are set up one way (allowing mixed case)
while some servers bounced them back (denied mixed case). In other
words, they apparently did not have all their servers set up the same
way.
For that ISP, I've had to send all lower case.

2005\11\01@214453 by Rolf

face picon face
Me thinks you misread the RFC822 ... ;-)

It is actually quite clear:

6.2.4.  DOMAIN-DEPENDENT LOCAL STRING

indicates that the local part (part before the '@') is whatever the local (receiving) server allows.

Then, explicitly in 3.4.7 (as you noted), the RFC says:

Except as noted, alphabetic strings may be represented in  any
       combination of upper and lower case.  The only syntactic units
       which requires preservation of case information are:

                   -  text
                   -  qtext
                   -  dtext
                   -  ctext
                   -  quoted-pair
                   -  local-part, except "Postmaster"

Where local-part is again, the part before the '@'.

This explicitly states that the local-part is CASE SENSITIVE (other than
"Postmaster" which *has* to be case insensitive...).

Rolf



M. Adam Davis wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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