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'[OT] Is using USPS ethical? was:Paranoid or just a'
2010\11\26@103110 by YES NOPE9

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>
> On Nov 26, 2010, at 7:52 AM, Chris Smolinski wrote:
>
> I use the post office exclusively for shipments. Priority and first class within the USA, and EMS outside. Yes, the tracking is abysmal by UPS/Fedex standards, but it is somewhat better than it used to be. For foreign shipments, they're much less than UPS/Fedex. Within the US, Priority seems to be a little more expensive, but I'm not convinced getting a UPS account would be worth it (for me anyway). And I refuse to deal with Fedex.
>
> FWIW,The USPS losses are not covered by the taxpayer. The post office has to break even, in the end. My gut feeling is that Saturday delivery will eventually go away. The mail volume simply isn't there anymore. But their real cost problem are the bloated salaries and staffing levels. And for various political reasons, that isn't likely to go away.
I believe that the USPS losses will be covered by the taxpayer.  Just wait and see.   Sort of like the way Social Security is being funded by current taxpayers and by inflation.  I guess a lot of people believe if the organization doing the stealing is big enough ( USPS , USG , SS , etc. ) then the process becomes ethical and moral.  I don't agree.  Anyone using USPS is stealing from other people.
Gus


2010\11\26@115030 by Vitaliy

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YES NOPE9 wrote:
> I guess a lot of people believe if the organization doing the stealing is
> big enough ( USPS , USG , SS , etc. ) then the process becomes ethical and
> moral.  I don't agree.  Anyone using USPS is stealing from other people.

Gus, I respect your position, and I'm all for privatizing USPS to make it more efficient. However, in the meantime, I agree with Olin -- "You're already paying for part of the service whether you use it or not."  One way to think of it, is that I'm doing my small part in bringing down the behemoth. :)  The economic day of reckoning is fast approaching, and organizations that are hemorraging money already, will start to crumble.

Unfortunately, boycotting a taxpayer subsidized agency, does not work. They're not worried about losing customers.

Vitaliy

2010\11\26@115115 by John Gardner

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Some of us are old enough to remember when mail came
twice a day :)

Time to wear ship...

friendly regards, Jac

2010\11\26@120601 by Michael Watterson

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 On 26/11/2010 16:50, Vitaliy wrote:
> YES NOPE9 wrote:
>> I guess a lot of people believe if the organization doing the stealing is
>> big enough ( USPS , USG , SS , etc. ) then the process becomes ethical and
>> moral.  I don't agree.  Anyone using USPS is stealing from other people.
> Gus, I respect your position, and I'm all for privatizing USPS to make it
> more efficient. However, in the meantime, I agree with Olin -- "You're
> already paying for part of the service whether you use it or not."  One way
> to think of it, is that I'm doing my small part in bringing down the
> behemoth. :)  The economic day of reckoning is fast approaching, and
> organizations that are hemorraging money already, will start to crumble.
>
> Unfortunately, boycotting a taxpayer subsidized agency, does not work.
> They're not worried about losing customers.
>
> Vitaliy
>
Actually it makes it worse.

Why do I buy from China and not USA?
Postage is one reason. Cheaper and faster, even though it's further away
If less people use USPS, the only reliable method for me to get USAian stuff in Ireland (other than catching a plane), then the losses would INCREASE.

The only "moral" thing by YES NOPE9 / Gus logic is actually for as many people as possible to use it, as then the fixed overheads lessen and then it might make a profit.

2010\11\26@122300 by Vitaliy

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Michael Watterson wrote:
{Quote hidden}

You're talking about Airmail, which costs about the same from USA ($4 for a small padded envelope, IIRC). We stopped using it after numerous chronic problems with European Customs. If a package gets singled out for review, it can sometimes take up to two months before it gets in the hands of a customer. Most people get tired of waiting, and do a chargeback. Or worse, there are some unscrupulous people who know that Airmail has no tracking and we can't prove to the credit card company that the package was never delivered.


> If less people use USPS, the only reliable method for me to get USAian
> stuff in Ireland (other than catching a plane), then the losses would
> INCREASE.

The *only* reliable method?!  Last I heard, FedEx and UPS were still operating in Ireland.


> The only "moral" thing by YES NOPE9 / Gus logic is actually for as many
> people as possible to use it, as then the fixed overheads lessen and
> then it might make a profit.

It's not all about the fixed overhead.

Vitaliy

2010\11\26@123436 by RussellMc

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This comment applies at least as much here as in the other threa I posted it in.
Ice here looks even thinner and more crumbly.
Please take suitable care:

I note that this thread is skating dangerously along the edge of
"forbidden" territory. I find it interesting and even useful BUT such
things can rapidly turn to "pure religion" and loud yelling in a few
swift exchanges. It would be good if that didn't happen, and if
everyone with strong opinions on the relative merits of the subject
managed to continue to moderate their expressions of them somewhat. I
am not suggesting that I have any personal interest in "breaking up
the party"  - just that such parties all too often manage to break
themselves up if due care is not taken.


          Russel

2010\11\26@125214 by Michael Watterson

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 On 26/11/2010 17:21, Vitaliy wrote:
>
> The *only* reliable method?!  Last I heard, FedEx and UPS were still
> operating in Ireland.
>
UPS and Fedex are seriously unreliable. UPS especially. Maybe because we have no postcodes.

If customs don't like a package here, you get a letter asking for "paypal" or other invoice (this is recent). Amazingly you can email, fax or post this info.

If they decide to add duty and / or VAT (you allowed up to 20 Euro vat free, and only at 120 Euro do they examine the Duty due) , then you pay the postman + €6 processing charge.

Too many Hong Kong package with "Gift" on the Customs label!

The extra delay is about 3 days. It's avoided by a "real looking" invoice available on the package (clear pocket) with realistic prices in it!

2010\11\26@125748 by Carl Denk

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Just happened to be near our rural mailbox, when the postal vehicle stopped to make our delivery. I related in brief terms, this thread. The lady suggested visit the postal worker's site:
http://www.postalmag.com/

3 items of interest:
USPS Preliminary Financial Info Oct. 2010: Postal Service Posts $283M Profit! <http://www.prc.gov/Docs/71/71025/OCT-10_PRC_-_Final.pdf>*

*"Postmaster General John E. Potter could earn about $5.5 million in deferred compensation, retirement benefits and accrued annual leave for the rest of his life when he leaves the U.S. Postal Service next month, according to financial statements.

Her comment was our local postmaster was furious!

And someone had complained about Atlanta service:
http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/dpp/news/postal-service-investigates-mail-thefts-112410

On 11/26/2010 10:31 AM, YES NOPE9 wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\11\26@151657 by Vitaliy

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Michael Watterson wrote:
>UPS and Fedex are seriously unreliable. UPS especially. Maybe because we
have no postcodes.

We ship to Ireland occasionally, so I'm very curious: what do you mean by "unreliable"? Do they lose packages, or just take a long time to deliver?

>If customs don't like a package here, you get a letter asking for
"paypal" or other invoice (this is recent). Amazingly you can email, fax
or post this info.

How recent is this? IIRC, the same thing (communication with customs via email) is available in Germany. The German Customs are notoriously vicious, they go as far as googling a product, and charging fees on the full list price, if an invoice is missing or looks "suspect". :)


> The extra delay is about 3 days. It's avoided by a "real looking"
invoice available on the package (clear pocket) with realistic prices in it!

We always include such invoice, for this reason.

Vitaliy

2010\11\26@162223 by Olin Lathrop

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Vitaliy wrote:
> YES NOPE9 wrote:
>> I guess a lot of people believe if the organization doing the
>> stealing is big enough ( USPS , USG , SS , etc. ) then the process
>> becomes ethical and moral.  I don't agree.  Anyone using USPS is
>> stealing from other people.
>
> Gus, I respect your position,

I don't.  It's silly, in fact downright stupid.  Let me count the ways:

First, even if the taxpayers are subsidizing the service, how is that
different from other services we pay taxes for that aren't specifically
metered to how much we use them?  According to your reasoning, it is also
stealing to drive on public roads, for example.

Second, you assume that the loss is proportional to how much the service is
used.  In fact, it's most likely the opposite.  In other words, the post
office probably makes a little money on each incremental package, but is a
loss overall due to the fixed cost that would be there whether you shipped
another package with them or not.  For example, the mailman is going to go
out on his route whether the truck is half full or completely full.  So to
follow your own logic, you are actually stealing by NOT using the post
office and using a commercial carrier for something the post office could
have easily done.  Thief!  Thief!

Third, the rules are what they are.  If you don't like them, advocate to
change them.  Don't take it out on people who are legally following them.
Calling them thieves is just plain wrong.  They are doing nothing illegal.

Fourth, who appointed you prosecutor and jury anyway?  We have a system for
accusing people of stealing and then deciding their guilt.  You unilaterally
declaring them thieves isn't it.


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Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\11\26@163907 by Olin Lathrop

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Vitaliy wrote:
> Or worse, there are some unscrupulous people who
> know that Airmail has no tracking and we can't prove to the credit
> card company that the package was never delivered.

This is why everything we send to a customer is with a method that provides
proof of delivery of some sort.  Unfortunately for packages outside the US
that means registered mail, even if all we care about is the return receipt..
It also heads off the dirtbags who would make a package fall off a truck or
claim they never got it.  They know they won't get away with that if the
package is registered.  We haven't had anyone try yet.

The most that's happened was that someone in Germany refused a shipment or
never went to pick it up.  When it came back I issued a refund for the
contents, but not for the shipping.  After all, we did ship it as requested,
and have the paperwork to prove it.  I haven't gotten around to opening the
package and putting the contents back in stock, so it's still sitting here
in a pile.  There is a pink and yellow sticker on it from the German post
office with a X in the box "Nicht abgeholt", which means "not picked up".
Duh.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\11\26@165826 by Vitaliy

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Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Vitaliy wrote:
>> YES NOPE9 wrote:
>>> I guess a lot of people believe if the organization doing the
>>> stealing is big enough ( USPS , USG , SS , etc. ) then the process
>>> becomes ethical and moral.  I don't agree.  Anyone using USPS is
>>> stealing from other people.
>>
>> Gus, I respect your position,
>
> I don't.  It's silly, in fact downright stupid.  Let me count the ways:

It's possible to disagree with people, and respect their views at the same time. For instance, I believe in the right for self-defense. I don't want to kill anyone, but if they were breaking down the door with the intent to harm my family, my first instinct would be to grab my gun. There are others who believe in non-violence, and as long as they are willing to pay the price, I respect them.

If everybody boycotted USPS, they would be forced to close their doors. It is not likely to happen, but doesn't make Gus' position "stupid".


> First, even if the taxpayers are subsidizing the service, how is that
> different from other services we pay taxes for that aren't specifically
> metered to how much we use them?  According to your reasoning, it is also
> stealing to drive on public roads, for example.

This analogy came to my mind, too. However, with roads you can't choose a private option.


{Quote hidden}

Keep your shirt on, Olin. :)  A postal worker told me that there is a who regularly takes advantage of the Flat Rate Priority Box ("if it fits, it ships") by stuffing the box with coins and shipping them to Hawaii or Alaska. I don't remember what he said the weight was, but it was something ridiculous, like 20 lbs.


> Third, the rules are what they are.  If you don't like them, advocate to
> change them.  Don't take it out on people who are legally following them.
> Calling them thieves is just plain wrong.  They are doing nothing illegal..

I will agree with your statement in this particular case.

Vitaliy

2010\11\26@170054 by Vitaliy

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Olin Lathrop wrote:
>> Or worse, there are some unscrupulous people who
>> know that Airmail has no tracking and we can't prove to the credit
>> card company that the package was never delivered.
>
> This is why everything we send to a customer is with a method that
> provides
> proof of delivery of some sort.  Unfortunately for packages outside the US
> that means registered mail, even if all we care about is the return
> receipt.
> It also heads off the dirtbags who would make a package fall off a truck
> or
> claim they never got it.  They know they won't get away with that if the
> package is registered.  We haven't had anyone try yet.

Registered mail, eh? I'm sure we looked into that at some point; how much is it for Airmail?

2010\11\26@172121 by Carl Denk

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drive on public roads, for example.

And we could go back to the times of independent fire departments, and one subscribes with an annual fee, and then gets a marker for the front door. If you didn't have a marker, it burnt while the fire fighters watched..

With more than one mail delivery organization, I guess I would have to a discrete mailbox for each one. It is illegal to use the USPS box for any other purpose. And then we used to have a newspaper box for 2 different papers, one morning, one afternoon, but each had it's own box

2010\11\26@172140 by Olin Lathrop

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Vitaliy wrote:
> Registered mail, eh? I'm sure we looked into that at some point; how
> much is it for Airmail?

I don't know about airmail, or if there really still is such a thing.
Registered mail with return receipt is $20-25 to most places for small
packages up to a pound or two.  The package to Germany I mentioned cost
$21.12 and contained three small circuit boards, for example.  Surprisingly,
it costs about the same to Canada.  So far I have not been very impressed
with the few interactions I've had with the Canadian postal service.  In
fact, the more I find out about the postal service in other countries, the
more I appreciate the US postal service.  Maligning the USPS seems to be a
national sport, but I've found them to deliver a reliable service for a
decent price.

The cost of registered mail with return receipt is really no big deal to us
since we charge the customer for it.  That may make some in foreign
countries decide not to buy our stuff.  Oh well.  It's a sideline for us
anyway.  I think last year we did around $20K in such sales.  Sales of
contract engineering and consulting services are many times that.


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Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\11\26@173955 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> So far I have not been very impressed
> with the few interactions I've had with the Canadian postal service.

IME Canadian postal services are one of the worst in the 'civilised' world. (My father lives over there, and has an even lower opinion of them.) Other bad ones are France and Italy.

--
Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2010\11\26@174054 by Michael Watterson

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 On 26/11/2010 20:15, Vitaliy wrote:
> Michael Watterson wrote:
>> UPS and Fedex are seriously unreliable. UPS especially. Maybe because we
> have no postcodes.
>
> We ship to Ireland occasionally, so I'm very curious: what do you mean by
> "unreliable"? Do they lose packages, or just take a long time to deliver?

A long time to deliver, sometimes send it back to Germany and then to  a different Irish Airport


>> If customs don't like a package here, you get a letter asking for
> "paypal" or other invoice (this is recent). Amazingly you can email, fax
> or post this info.
>
> How recent is this? IIRC, the same thing (communication with customs via
> email) is available in Germany. The German Customs are notoriously vicious,
> they go as far as googling a product, and charging fees on the full list
> price, if an invoice is missing or looks "suspect". :)
>

The Stereotypical German Efficiency.

In the last year. Before that only some parcels or larger parcels went via customs if it was post rather than Courier.

>> The extra delay is about 3 days. It's avoided by a "real looking"
> invoice available on the package (clear pocket) with realistic prices in it!
>
> We always include such invoice, for this reason.
>
> Vitaliy
>

2010\11\26@174815 by Vitaliy

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Carl Denk wrote:
> drive on public roads, for example.
>
> And we could go back to the times of independent fire departments, and
> one subscribes with an annual fee, and then gets a marker for the front
> door. If you didn't have a marker, it burnt while the fire fighters
> watched.

As they should have. It should be your choice whether you want to pay for the service, or not. And it's disingenuous to appeal to the firefighters' sense of compassion if you were too cheap to pay the dues.

It's not about being "cruel" or "selfish" or "coldhearted". If my neighbor's house on fire, I will help put it out. If he is hungry, and I have food, I will give it to him. What I have a problem with, is charity at the barrel of a gun.

Compassion is a wonderful emotion. Just remember that there is no such thing as charity at someone else's expense (it's called robbery).


> With more than one mail delivery organization, I guess I would have to a
> discrete mailbox for each one.

Not necessarily, why?


> It is illegal to use the USPS box for any
> other purpose.

Yes; it is also illegal to compete with them. UPS and FedEx got special "exemptions".


> And then we used to have a newspaper box for 2 different
> papers, one morning, one afternoon, but each had it's own box.

Sounds like it was done for convenience?

Vitaliy

2010\11\26@175419 by Vitaliy

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Olin Lathrop wrote:
> I don't know about airmail, or if there really still is such a thing.
> Registered mail with return receipt is $20-25 to most places for small
> packages up to a pound or two.

Ouch! Why not use International Express Mail instead? You can insure it, and it's somewhat trackable.


> The cost of registered mail with return receipt is really no big deal to
> us
> since we charge the customer for it. That may make some in foreign
> countries decide not to buy our stuff.  Oh well.  It's a sideline for us
> anyway.  I think last year we did around $20K in such sales.  Sales of
> contract engineering and consulting services are many times that.

Over one third of our orders are international, so it definitely is a big deal to us.

Vitaliy

2010\11\26@181415 by Carl Denk

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On 11/26/2010 5:47 PM, Vitaliy wrote:
> Carl Denk wrote:
>    
>> drive on public roads, for example.
>>
>> And we could go back to the times of independent fire departments, and
>> one subscribes with an annual fee, and then gets a marker for the front
>> door. If you didn't have a marker, it burnt while the fire fighters
>> watched.
>>      
> As they should have. It should be your choice whether you want to pay for
> the service, or not. And it's disingenuous to appeal to the firefighters'
> sense of compassion if you were too cheap to pay the dues.
>
In the last election (beginning of this month), Our township voted 75% for a tax levy for the Township Fire/EMS department. Most of the money will be used to replace well used equipment, including  a 1988 vintage emergency rescue vehicle that is first responder to medical emergencies. All the local fire departments have "mutual aid" agreements with each other. For certain types of alarms, standard procedure is to respond to neighbor department calls automatically. Each department responds typically to 8 -12 mutual aid calls per month. It is not unusual seeing a neighboring department setting at not their firehouse, prepared to respond to a call while the home department has a situation occupying most of their equipment and personnel

2010\11\26@184948 by CDB

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:: As they should have. It should be your choice whether you want to
:: pay for
:: the service, or not. And it's disingenuous to appeal to the
:: firefighters'
:: sense of compassion if you were too cheap to pay the dues.

So the problems I see with this approach are -

1. A truck plows into 3 houses or the neighbourhood gets flooded, lava'd, quaked or some other disaster. Along wobble the emergency services and wait whilst a  local JobsWorth (with splendid uniform to match naturally) consults his/her/its list to find out which household should be helped or gain medical assistance.
2. By this reckoning insurance policies should be outlawed, as statisically few actually benefit from them, all those people who contribute towards the common pool to allow those others to gain other peoples money - in other words insurance is a form of subsidy to a central organisation.
Colin
--
CDB, spam_OUTcolinTakeThisOuTspambtech-online.co.uk on 27/11/2010
Web presence: http://www.btech-online.co.uk   Hosted by:  http://www.justhost.com.au
 

2010\11\26@185347 by Bob Blick

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On Fri, 26 Nov 2010 15:47:36 -0700, "Vitaliy" said:

> It's not about being "cruel" or "selfish" or "coldhearted". If my
> neighbor's
> house on fire, I will help put it out. If he is hungry, and I have food,
> I
> will give it to him. What I have a problem with, is charity at the barrel
> of
> a gun.
>
> Compassion is a wonderful emotion. Just remember that there is no such
> thing
> as charity at someone else's expense (it's called robbery).

Yes it is cruel, selfish and coldhearted. If you are so tired of
civilization you should move somewhere else.

If you expect people to treat you like an adult human being start acting
like one, because otherwise you might be miistaken for someone who takes
pleasure stomping on kittens.

Stop pushing your Libertarian lifestyles on the Piclist. Start your own
blog or join another one if that is what you want to talk about. This is
the Piclist, not a place to spout crackpot political views.

You've had warnings about this before and you've run out of them. Stick
to technical matters and all is good.

Bob


-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web

2010\11\26@214622 by Vitaliy

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CDB wrote:
{Quote hidden}

What?! No. :)

If you follow my posts at all, you know that I'm a pro-market libertarian (the "leave us alone" party).

For eventuality such as #1 of course insurance is the proper form of protection.

Private insurance is just that, private. I can choose to give money to insurance company A, or insurance company B, or self-insure, or take my chances. Free choice.

For large scale disasters like Katrina, IMO the private market would also have been the best solution (I think most people agree that FEMA's response was terrible). Instead, they arrested the guy who brought a truckload of gas generators, for "price gouging". I don't know about you, but I would gladly pay $1000 for a generator that I need to have electricity *now*, even if it costs half as much at a store in another state. There are stories of volunteers repairing homes w/o any outside assistance, etc -- so I'm not talking about some theoretical system, it's stuff that works when it's allowed to work.

Vitaliy

2010\11\26@215806 by Bob Blick

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On Fri, 26 Nov 2010 19:45:55 -0700, "Vitaliy" said:

> was terrible). Instead, they arrested the guy who brought a truckload of
> gas
> generators, for "price gouging". I don't know about you, but I would
> gladly
> pay $1000 for a generator that I need to have electricity *now*, even if
> it
> costs half as much at a store in another state.
I call BS. John Stossel is the source of this false news item. He is
full of it. If it was true, real news would have covered it.

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Send your email first class

2010\11\26@215839 by Vitaliy

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Bob Blick wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Bob, I'm not the one questioning other people's character while hiding behind "admin immunity".

I don't think you're evil; in fact I'm sure your intentions are good. I just very strongly disagree with your methods.

Vitaliy

2010\11\26@220751 by Bob Blick

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On Fri, 26 Nov 2010 19:58:08 -0700, "Vitaliy" said:

> Bob, I'm not the one questioning other people's character while hiding
> behind "admin immunity".
>
> I don't think you're evil; in fact I'm sure your intentions are good. I
> just
> very strongly disagree with your methods.

I don't think you are an evil sociopath - real sociopaths keep their
true feeling to themselves. You feel comfortable telling people of your
lack of human comapassion.

But I am asking you to keep your politics to yourself. Actually, I an
telling you to keep your politics to yourself. This is the PIC
Microcontroller Discussion List, not the CATO Institute.

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and
                         love email again

2010\11\26@221143 by RussellMc

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Hat: Weary

> > Stop pushing your Libertarian lifestyles on the Piclist. Start your own
> > blog or join another one if that is what you want to talk about. This is
> > the Piclist, not a place to spout crackpot political views.
> >
> > You've had warnings about this before and you've run out of them. Stick
> > to technical matters and all is good.

>  ... , I'm not the one questioning other people's character while hiding
> behind "admin immunity".
>
> I don't think you're evil; in fact I'm sure your intentions are good. I just
> very strongly disagree with your methods.

None of the following is a threat - just an excessive-experience  based warning.

This applies to all involved here (moi aussitot) and a few not involved :-)..

This sort of exchange MUST be avoided if this sort of discussion is to
have any chance of continuing.
If the other guy/gal mounts an essentially ad hominem attack, just
ignore it. ("Just ignoring it" may include modifying your response
more than you may consider is fair or desirable - if going down in
flames proudly defiant is what you are after or value then by all
means bomb on in defiant splendour).

Responding like for like in such cases WILL result in bad things
happening very quickly.


 Russel

2010\11\27@112042 by Olin Lathrop

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Vitaliy wrote:
> Olin Lathrop wrote:
>> I don't know about airmail, or if there really still is such a thing.
>> Registered mail with return receipt is $20-25 to most places for
>> small packages up to a pound or two.
>
> Ouch! Why not use International Express Mail instead? You can insure
> it, and it's somewhat trackable.

International express mail is more expensive.  As far as I have been able to
determine, registered mail with return receipt is the cheapest way to send a
small package outside the US and get legal proof it was delivered.  I don't
really care about the registered part directly, but it's required if you
want a return receipt.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\11\28@161222 by Vitaliy

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Bob Blick wrote:
>> was terrible). Instead, they arrested the guy who brought a truckload of
>> gas
>> generators, for "price gouging". I don't know about you, but I would
>> gladly
>> pay $1000 for a generator that I need to have electricity *now*, even if
>> it
>> costs half as much at a store in another state.
>
> I call BS. John Stossel is the source of this false news item. He is
> full of it. If it was true, real news would have covered it.

Is "The San Diego Union-Tribune" real enough for you?

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20080918/news_lz1e18zwolink.html

Would you like me to find and cite the anti-gouging laws? Or would it take a copy of the arrest warrant to satisfy you?

Vitaliy

2010\11\28@163834 by Carl Denk

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If a merchant needed to fly in a shipment of generators to supply the demand, send a truck to meet the airplane, maybe paying overtime to an overworked crew on a holiday night, and other associated costs above and beyond the normal delivery, just a small part of a semi truck load, be able to charge an appropriate price including normal profit and overhead? Should the merchant stock an unusual extra quantity of goods, just in case there is an event where they would be in demand? Who pays for the costs of that unusual stock?

What about that hotel room? If there is a disaster, probably the normal tourist clientele is not going to be there, and the hotel is happy to have the rooms full. But then workers to rebuild the area flood in.

We have seen here in Northern Ohio, plywood and other goods loaded out in truckload quantities for hurricane hit areas, and have seen snow shovels and blowers brought into the area by Lowe's or Home Depot sort of groups. The snow shovels and blowers probably don't have the normal sale price, is that price gouging??

The whole issue here is, unscrupulous people taking advantage.

On 11/28/2010 4:11 PM, Vitaliy wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\11\28@171809 by Bob Blick

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On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 14:11:37 -0700, "Vitaliy" said:

> > full of it. If it was true, real news would have covered it.
>
> Is "The San Diego Union-Tribune" real enough for you?

No. It is fake news taking a circular route. Going around and around
does not make it true. None of the real news outlets carried it.

> copy of the arrest warrant to satisfy you?

Or a birth certificate? That sort of news went around a lot, too.

Here is something I don't understand. You are a businessman, you
sometimes post product announcements under the AD heading. I would think
you'd aim for a more neutral online presence, but instead you take the
opposite route, even going so far as to suggest that letting a guy's
house burn down is the right thing to do. Does that sort of talk bring
you more sales?

It's like there's a rational disconnect between your two online faces.
Or is business so good for you that you don't care what people think
about you? Because I would think that most businesses want to avoid that
sort of talk. It's not like extra sales from the "freedom to burn" party
will even things out.

Bob


-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Send your email first class

2010\11\28@180637 by RussellMc

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> > I call BS. John Stossel is the source of this false news item. He is
> > full of it. If it was true, real news would have covered it.

> Is "The San Diego Union-Tribune" real enough for you?

> http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20080918/news_lz1e18zwolink.html
>
> Would you like me to find and cite the anti-gouging laws? Or would it take a
> copy of the arrest warrant to satisfy you?

Zwolinski SEEMS real
      http://home.sandiego.edu/~mzwolinski/
Whether he did his homework would need TBD.
The story seems to have little coverage overall and it's all too easy
to be fooled by something on-web if due diligence is not done.

If Bob is happy to engage with V' on this at this level in public
then, by all means, lay on.
If however this is a modal exchange where it's OK for a while and then
not OK and then OK and ... , then it may be a better idea to politely
explain what parts are and aren't acceptable for ongoing guidance.

A very important issue is that the PICList FAQ is excessively wooly on
this area.
It essentially says "no politics".

*** However ***, many list members would happily distinguish between
economics and politics - and many do. There are often several parallel
economic discussions which variably border on philosophical human
organisational(aka politics) in progress, and a range of people
contribute amicably, including eg Bob and herbert and (occasionally)
me. (Usually of less interest to me than to some others).

It seems very highly desirable that the rules be clear enough that
proper boundaries can be easily distinguished.
Having political include "economics, but only  if espoused by Vitaliy"
would be clear and understandable enough, but it would need to be
written into the faq so we know how to deal with it. At present we
have implicit rules like "this is not politics because its was posted
by [Joe | Bob | Herbert | Oli | Olin (even) | russell | J... ]. Again
- if this was in the faq we could understand it, but at present it's
not so how to decide where the boundaries are is hard and this causes
problems.

Maybe we need a simple rule like "Vitaliy said this so it must be
politics so it is forbidden" or some such equally simple rule to
follow. If we don't have such a rule and if we insist on not improving
what the faq says then I suggest we should start off with the implict
rule "economics <> politics unless it also features a donkey and or an
elephant or a Swastika or ... ". I don't like that rule myself as some
such material clearly is too like "real" politics, but if we care (as
we seem to do) then let's make it a bit clearer than at present.

It may be useful if list members OTHER THAN Vitaliy and Bob (and
russell ? :-) ) say publicly what they think "no politics" may or does
mean. Having a corporate view may help.

If everyone does their usual thing and doesn't participate then we
will just have to stay with "If Vitaliy says it then it's politics and
its bad" as at present.

[[[ I personally would NOT want to see Vitaliy (or Bob) free to
discuss their more extreme philosophical  ideas under the guide of
"not politics" (as too many people will then want  to add their "not
political" alternatives as well) - BUT I do want a clearer and
acceptable boundary defined.]]]

_______________

re initial discussion:

It would be nice for protagonists to change the tag to something
apposite (but polite :-) ) so that people can decide if it's liable to
be worth reading.

In fact, having an accurate subject line would go a long way  towards
allowing acceptable but potentially marginal material to be discussed
with less potential impact.



Russell

PS - politics is largely of low interest to me. Economic systems only
somewhat less so. Here we don't have Republicans or Democrats or even
Gubbernators. We do have somewhat equivalent entities.  I'm more
liable to be driven to sleep than to rage by detailed discussions of
such

2010\11\28@182656 by Bob Blick

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On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 12:06:05 +1300, "RussellMc" said:

> Zwolinski SEEMS real
>        http://home.sandiego.edu/~mzwolinski/
> Whether he did his homework would need TBD.
> The story seems to have little coverage overall and it's all too easy
> to be fooled by something on-web if due diligence is not done.

If it was real then someone besides partisans like him would carry it.
The man cites no sources.

In other words, he is happy to lie for his partisan goals.


> A very important issue is that the PICList FAQ is excessively wooly on
> this area.
> It essentially says "no politics".

That's right, NO POLITICS. But you don't seem interested in stopping it
until someone like me says something that opposes yours and Vitaliy's
views.

I have no tolerance for politics on the Piclist because cooler heads do
not prevail in today's charged partisan atmosphere.

Yet you want to allow it. Well, hang on and enjoy the ride.

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web

2010\11\28@195542 by Vitaliy

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Carl Denk wrote:
> The whole issue here is, unscrupulous people taking advantage.

Let's assume for a second that that disaster victims are normal people who aren't stupid. When the "price gouger" gets on the scene, these normal people have choices: they can buy the goods at inflated prices, get them from another source, or do without.

When "price gouging" is made illegal, effectively it means that one of the choices is eliminated. Are the victims now better off?

Let's look at how Florida defines price gouging:

"Florida Statute 501.160 states that during a state of emergency, it is unlawful to sell, lease, offer to sell, or offer for lease essential commodities, dwelling units, or self-storage facilities for an amount that grossly exceeds the average price for that commodity during the 30 days before the declaration of the state of emergency, unless the seller can justifying the price by showing increases in its prices or market trends. Examples of necessary commodities are food, ice, gas, and lumber."

In practice, what happens is a run on the stores after any emergency or crisis. Since the stores aren't able to control demand via prices, very quickly all you are left with, are empty shelves. You cannot buy anything, at any price.

The dynamics of price controls were well understood back in the eighteenth century, when Adam Smith argued against the corn laws that, while well-intentioned, created famines.

Vitaliy

2010\11\28@201253 by Vitaliy

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Bob Blick wrote:
> Here is something I don't understand. You are a businessman, you
> sometimes post product announcements under the AD heading. I would think
> you'd aim for a more neutral online presence, but instead you take the
> opposite route, even going so far as to suggest that letting a guy's
> house burn down is the right thing to do. Does that sort of talk bring
> you more sales?

I don't post outside of [AD] to get more sales. My views are my own. I don't accept the premise that my employment status means I have to "aim for a more neutral online presence". There are others here who own their own businesses, and some of them are quite vocal.

Your comment about "letting a guy's house burn down" is taken out of context. I'd be happy to clarify any points you do not understand, if you wish.


> It's like there's a rational disconnect between your two online faces.

Why? How do I contradict myself?


> Or is business so good for you that you don't care what people think
> about you?

I have little regard for what people think about me, in general. :-)


> Because I would think that most businesses want to avoid that
> sort of talk. It's not like extra sales from the "freedom to burn" party
> will even things out.

I'm not speaking on behalf of my business. If some people choose to not do business with my company because of what I say as a private individual, it will be regrettable, but that is their choice. AFAICT, most people couldn't care less about the company owner's philosophical views when deciding whether or not to do business with the company.

Vitaliy

2010\11\28@202350 by Vitaliy

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RussellMc wrote:
>> > I call BS. John Stossel is the source of this false news item. He is
>> > full of it. If it was true, real news would have covered it.
>
> The story seems to have little coverage overall and it's all too easy
> to be fooled by something on-web if due diligence is not done.

Russell, here's the original Stossel's 20/20 special that Bob referred to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6ojYtKazgQ

Let's assume the guy is lying, the police never confiscated the generators and he never spent any time in jail.

I say, it's immaterial. The anti-price-gouging law is on the books in Louisiana and other states. If the police is to enforce the law, then Shepperson (and others like him) must go to jail.

Vitaliy

2010\11\28@203410 by Bob Blick

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On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 17:54:22 -0700, "Vitaliy" said:
> Carl Denk wrote:
> > The whole issue here is, unscrupulous people taking advantage.
>
Hi Carl,
Vitaliy doesn't believe that taking advantage of people is unscrupulous.
It's just business for him. Making money off other people's misery is OK
with him.

> Let's assume for a second that that disaster victims are normal people
> who
> aren't stupid. When the "price gouger" gets on the scene, these normal
> people have choices: they can buy the goods at inflated prices, get them
> from another source, or do without.
>
> When "price gouging" is made illegal, effectively it means that one of
> the
> choices is eliminated. Are the victims now better off?

Actually, I'd say they were now twice victims.

Notice how he started with a fake news article to try to inject a
scenario that never took place, to try to drum up outrage against people
who believe that helping people in crisis shouldn't be a profit center?

>
> Let's look at how Florida defines price gouging:
>
Suddenly we're in Florida? You changed from one lie about something that
never happened in Mississippi to some other misquoted story in Florida?

Laws are in place for a variety of reasons, one of them is to keep order
during emergencies. There are plenty of safety reasons to keep guys from
selling stuff off the back of a truck during a disaster.

> The dynamics of price controls were well understood back in the
> eighteenth
> century, when Adam Smith argued against the corn laws that, while
> well-intentioned, created famines.

On a soap box again? You just don't know when to stop. If you love the
eighteenth century and growing corn so much, I'd like to see you try to
be a farmer. What a laugh.

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be

2010\11\28@203718 by Bob Blick

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On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 18:11:58 -0700, "Vitaliy" said:

>
> Your comment about "letting a guy's house burn down" is taken out of
> context. I'd be happy to clarify any points you do not understand, if you
> wish.

I'll bring that up at next Thursday's Men's Bible Study and see if I can
get a concensus about what Jesus would say about letting a man's house
burn down.

You disgust me. You would take this country back two hundred years.

The kind of slime you ooze is starting to attract dirt.

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Does exactly what it says on the tin

2010\11\28@213456 by RussellMc

face picon face
HAT:   ADMIN

1.  No hate speak "please".

As a guidleine "hate" may include personal attacks, ad hominem attacks,
personal vilification, references to body odor, army boots, parentage etc.
Possible also intelligence (except when applied to me), height & age (except
when applied to me), and other context-irrelevant personal attributes.
(Context relevant hate is also forbidden).

References to slime oze or dirt in other than in an apposite engineering
sense is liable to fail relevant tests.

References to desires to live in more halcyon and untroubled ages may be
acceptable (even if ill conceived :-) ).


2.  Please note that "boundary pushing" for purposes of demonstration or
experiment, which MAY be justified in some contexts,  can not justifiably be
allowed to spill over into other forbidden areas. (ie / eg Hate and politics
are orthogonal. Each gets's treated on its merit.)


_____________________

Notes:

Robust discussion trickling along the borders of politics and economics, to
make a point, or even tacking perhaps too deeply into one or other, may well
be fine enough if it has some deep point - or may not. .

However, ad hominem attack and personal abuse are completely different
matters and are also quite independently not allowed by list rules.
Unlike the present excessively vague rule re "no politics", the meaning of
"hate" at a personal level has been far better established in past
exchanges.

Note that the topic description list here:
mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
is actually the one closest to what was most recently approved by a
convocation of  PIClist admins and promulgated to list some whole ago.
The one at PICList.com is out of date. Will pursue.


         Russell






On 29 November 2010 14:37, Bob Blick <.....bobblickKILLspamspam@spam@ftml.net> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>

2010\11\28@214204 by Bob Blick

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On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 15:34:25 +1300, "RussellMc" said:
> HAT:   ADMIN
>
> 1.  No hate speak "please".
>
> As a guidleine "hate" may include personal attacks, ad hominem attacks,
> personal vilification, references to body odor, army boots, parentage


OK, Russell, now I'll put on my admin hat.

Vitaliy,

If you don't want to hear me say the things I say, it's real easy.

1. NO POLITICS on the Piclist.
2. Don't hit reply.

Bob


-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Send your email first class

2010\11\28@224011 by RussellMc

face picon face
Hat: No

> OK, Russell, now I'll put on my admin hat.

> If you don't want to hear me say the things I say, it's real easy.
> 1. NO POLITICS on the Piclist.
> 2. Don't hit reply.
> Bob

Indeed.
But, as I noted:

1. Our rules are too vague, and so allow vague interpretation of the
meaning of "politics" at the whim of list admins.

2. Economics <> politics, although they often hold hands. Many people
talk re the former on list and are allowed to do so with no comment at
all by admins. Admins even join in or even originate economic themes,
with no suggestion that this is wrong.  But ...

3. If Vitaliy speaks about  anything that has any economic content,
even peripherally, this is "often" deemed to be politics and thus in
violation of the "no politics" requirement.

While I find some of Vitaliy's economic ideas naive and quaint or even
occasionally somewhat distressing (army boots, height, age ...  :-) )
it's not apparent to me why he should not be treated the same as other
people are on such matters.

There is no doubt* that Vitaliy knowingly pushes the limits on such
things on occasions, if our rules were somewhat bettert cast he would
have less opportunity to do so.

4.  One solution is to stomp on everyone here who has any inclination
to talk on anything vaguely economic - while that's one way to foil
the dread Vitaliy,

- Stomping on things seems unacceptable, whether it be list members or other.

- it also would debar a lot of the existing conversations which
clearly people are interested in and which happens now without any
problems.  About the only time we have problems with such
conversations is when Vitaliy has the temerity to join in, when they
become  by definition political and so proscribed. A somewhat more
consistent and less confusing approach would be nice.

We need an adult and acceptable and generally accepted interpretation
of what "politics" means

IF ALL THE APATHETIC  ADULT CARING LIST MEMBERS DON'T ADD SOME VIEWS
ON ALL THIS  ABOUT NOW YOU'LL END UP WITH BOB'S VIEW THAT POLITICS IS
ANYTHING THAT VITALIY SAYS plus some stuff about donkeys and bears.

SPEAK UP NOW, OR BE HAPPY WITH THE CONSEQUENCES.

_______

And as I said:

"Robust discussion trickling along the borders of politics and
economics, to make a point, or even tacking perhaps too deeply into
one or other, may well be fine enough if it has some deep point - or
may not. However, ad hominem attack and personal abuse are completely
different matters and are also quite independently not allowed by list
rules.
Unlike the present excessively vague rule re "no politics", the
meaning of "hate" at a personal level has been far better established
in past exchanges."

Nothing that was said in response addressed that in any way.

You can't deal with rule A being poorly defined by knowingly violating rule B.
Attempting to do so is liable to be nonproductive.



              Russell

* A certainty. There's only way to be certain about such things. Think
about it :-

2010\11\28@233704 by Bob Blick

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On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 16:39:40 +1300, "RussellMc" said:
> Hat: No
>
> > OK, Russell, now I'll put on my admin hat.
>
> > If you don't want to hear me say the things I say, it's real easy.
> > 1. NO POLITICS on the Piclist.
> > 2. Don't hit reply.
> > Bob
>
> Indeed.
> But, as I noted:
>
> 1. Our rules are too vague, and so allow vague interpretation of the
> meaning of "politics" at the whim of list admins.

We expect a certain level of intelligence and courtesy from the
membership. Part and parcel in that expectation is that they will
respect our wishes when told to modify their behavior.

> 2. Economics <> politics, although they often hold hands. Many people
> talk re the former on list and are allowed to do so with no comment at
> all by admins. Admins even join in or even originate economic themes,
> with no suggestion that this is wrong.  But ...

If an admin or member objects then it will be looked into. Is there a
complaint about someone else? I am not aware of any such complaint.

> 3. If Vitaliy speaks about  anything that has any economic content,
> even peripherally, this is "often" deemed to be politics and thus in
> violation of the "no politics" requirement.

I don't want to get into the specifics of political parties, but when I
see talking points that are used by politicians in an economic
discussion, that's politics. Also, after the number of warnings he has
had previously, him discussing economics is not be a good idea. Also
please note that his contribution about USPS to the "best shipper"
thread was partisan and incited Gus to carry the torch even further.

> While I find some of Vitaliy's economic ideas naive and quaint or even
> occasionally somewhat distressing (army boots, height, age ...  :-) )
> it's not apparent to me why he should not be treated the same as other
> people are on such matters.

Maybe because others don't say the kinds of things he does, nor have a
history of continuing after warnings.

> There is no doubt* that Vitaliy knowingly pushes the limits on such
> things on occasions, if our rules were somewhat bettert cast he would
> have less opportunity to do so.

The rules are clear enough. Plus, annoying the admins is not the
smartest course to take.

> 4.  One solution is to stomp on everyone here who has any inclination
> to talk on anything vaguely economic - while that's one way to foil
> the dread Vitaliy,

Most list members have no problem talking about things without spouting
talking points. The "best shipper" thread is a perfect example. The
prices and delivery times, border issuse, etc, were being discussed, and
then Vitaliy decides to thrown in a political talking point about the
USPS. So the discussion was great until Vitaliy decided to turn it into
a platform for his political opinions.

> - Stomping on things seems unacceptable, whether it be list members or
> other.

It depends on your definition of "things". There are things even you
would agree require fast stomping.

> - it also would debar a lot of the existing conversations which
> clearly people are interested in and which happens now without any
> problems.  About the only time we have problems with such
> conversations is when Vitaliy has the temerity to join in, when they
> become  by definition political and so proscribed. A somewhat more
> consistent and less confusing approach would be nice.

At this point I think Vitaliy should not contribute to conversations
that are likely to cause problems. That seems an easy solution.

> We need an adult and acceptable and generally accepted interpretation
> of what "politics" means

That's where the "adult" part comes in. If everyone thinks about how
diverse the Piclist membership is, with an understanding that we,
especially in the US, are living in extremely partisan times, then the
interpretation of "what is politics" becomes much easier.

> IF ALL THE APATHETIC  ADULT CARING LIST MEMBERS DON'T ADD SOME VIEWS
> ON ALL THIS  ABOUT NOW YOU'LL END UP WITH BOB'S VIEW THAT POLITICS IS
> ANYTHING THAT VITALIY SAYS plus some stuff about donkeys and bears.
>
> SPEAK UP NOW, OR BE HAPPY WITH THE CONSEQUENCES.

Russell, what do you expect to gain by this? What I am trying to get you
to understand is that if an admin thinks something is against the rules,
it probably is against the rules. I am in the US and I understand the
political atmosphere here better than you, so my threshold for
"unacceptable" political speech is much lower than yours.

And frankly, no comments from membership is likely to raise that
threshold in me. This is the PIC Microcontroller Discussion List, not a
political forum. If politics bothers me, and I am an admin, I am going
to do my best to stomp on it. If some members don't like it, well,
that's the way it is.

I am reminded of a post several weeks ago that contained a lot of rude
language quoted from a movie. I gave a warning to the member, and there
was also a complaint from someone who was mentoring teenagers and how
distressed he was that this was one of the reasons he could not
recommend the Piclist to them. I realize it's difficult to have a list
of 2000 people and not have some chaos. But if everyone were to show
respect for the feelings of others and not try to push their "freedom of
speech" upon the list, toes will not be stepped on and we can work
toward our common goal, to be a community of engineers and students and
scientists and technicians. To that end, I really do not wish to know
the political affiliation of any of the members of the Piclist, just
like I do not want to know their sex, race, or religion.

I apologize to all the list members for all the strong statements I have
made publicly over the last two days. I only did it in order to cram my
message of community down your throats.
Best regards,

Bob


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                         wherever you are

2010\11\28@233750 by Kerry Wentworth

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As long as I was invited:

I joined this list relatively recently.  I joined to discuss PICs, EE, etc.  And maybe a little OT friendly banter.  What I found instead is is rudeness, immaturity, dishonesty, and (very) thinly veiled political discussion.

I am a moderator on a political forum, and I know how hard it is.  You can't possibly write a set of rules that cover everything.  The rules are a guideline, and the moderators are the judges.  It would be nice if the posters could act like adults, but that's not going to happen, trust me.  The moderators have to be the adults.

You can't jump on somebody because they say "I don't like the USPS because it's tax subsidized" or "I don't like Fedex because it's non-union" (assuming it's within the context of 'shipping'), but when the discussion degenerates, you need to say "enough", and posters need to know it's time to knock it off.

Kerry


RussellMc wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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2010\11\29@002137 by RussellMc

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> As long as I was invited:

You were / are.

I'm an admin fwiw. So is Bob.

Just to add perspective.
We both protect the integrity of the PIC and EE tags for thir intended
purposes 'to the death".
TECH is "my baby" and Bob doesn't have too much to say about it.
OT started off being mainly my area [OT][TECH][EE] ...
with Bob more responsible fro the other end [PIC][EE][Te...]
but he has increasingly seen fit to stray into OT of late.
His choice. But not generally a really great idea IMHO. He , of course,
disagrees.
OT has been much discussed in the part.
Aim is ANYTHING not otherwise covered that is of interest to members but NO
religion (a wide term), hate or politics.
Alas Vitaliy is a libertarian (he'll tell you) and Bob hates libertarians
(he's told us) and/or thinks they are stupid. Vitaliy is more cautious with
his language towards Bob but the traffic both ways is overly heated often. A
rational interchange between B&V for more than a few exchanges seems
impossible.
I'm in NZ so immune to US politics. But, as Bob said, less able to see what
may wind others up. (Not unable to see - I know what does - it just makes
sense from down here). Alas though the one by most the wound up by V is B.
Others may object to what V says, and any member is free to complain to
admins on or off list, but largely its the B&V show that predominates.
I would like to see what works for most people that upsets few people as
being OK with a few limits. Pure politics and pure religion are clear enough
limits.
But Bob sees economics + V as politics and we are off. V does not help
things by pushing boundaries and thinly veiling his politics.
What fun we have.

What I want is something a bit clearer than what is clear cut to Bob.
I don't hold that admins are God.
Admins are slaves to the masses IMHO.
That doesn't mean we should let individuals tyrannise others, but it does
mean that if most are happy we don't need to utterly define boundaries. But
will if needs must.
Bob feels the need when Vitaliy is involved. Vitaliy generally doesn't help
himself :-).

Bob and I both want the best for  the list.
We have some disagreement on hiow to achieve this :-)

> I joined this list relatively recently.  I joined to discuss PICs, EE,
> etc.

If you look in PIC and EE that should be ALL you get..
If in TECH also an engineering education.
OT should be for the mature - but with no sex religion politics.
Endless regress ...

> And maybe a little OT friendly banter.  What I found instead is is
> rudeness, immaturity, dishonesty, and (very) thinly veiled political
> discussion.

Rudeness, immaturity, dishonesty, and (very) thinly veiled
political discussion must ONLY be in OT - and very very largely not even
there :-).
Anywhere else OT stuff should die very rapidly.

> I am a moderator on a political forum, and I know how hard it is.  You
> can't possibly write a set of rules that cover everything.  The rules
> are a guideline, and the moderators are the judges.  It would be nice if
> the posters could act like adults, but that's not going to happen, trust
> me.  The moderators have to be the adults.

Aye.

> You can't jump on somebody because they say "I don't like the USPS
> because it's tax subsidized" or "I don't like Fedex because it's
> non-union" (assuming it's within the context of 'shipping'), but when
> the discussion degenerates, you need to say "enough", and posters need
> to know it's time to knock it off.

And, there's the rub.

Thanks for sharing.
Cmon guys - more input please - on or off list.

Bob says he doesn't know what I seek to achieve.
Try this - A rule set that is understood and that allows most people to
discuss whatever they want in OT so long as vanishingly few are upset by it*
AND no hate politics religion sex. (The last 3 because they are the
universal flame drivers and there are many places to go to be
immolated)."Hate" is wide and wooly and most know what that means. Most.





                  Russel

2010\11\29@020048 by Oli Glaser

flavicon
face
On 29/11/2010 03:39, RussellMc wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I have not got enough time right now to do this subject justice, so will refrain from going into great detail.
(Very) basically I have no problem with other folks views as long as they conduct themselves in a polite manner - we have to remember this kind of communication (e-mail) can easily put a very one dimensional, unreal view across of a person and their beliefs, which makes it all the more easy to "hate" them.

Although I don't agree with some of them, I have no real problem with Vitaliys comments or views here, and am reasonably sure there is more to him than "someone who stands back and lets houses burn down" :-)
If I take this as an"isolated incident" (I have little knowledge of conduct prior to this - do "previous offences" have an admin weighting factor?) I have *far* more problem with ad hominem "you disgust me", "...slime you ooze..." etc.
I generally enjoy this kind of diversity in the list and the random and varied subjects that pop up, how they often relate to the initial technical subject and so on, though I accept some are more easily offended.  I like the idea of OT and the choice of which subjects to subscribe to, as (in theory) it should help to "protect" the folk who have no wish to be involved in such colourful exchanges - whether OT was intended for this or maybe a new tag might be an idea I'm not sure, but personally I'd be reluctant to "sterilise" a group that seems to have an abundance of "character", and is mostly a pleasant (and certainly stimulating - my main attraction)  place to be.



2010\11\29@030600 by CDB

flavicon
face
Personally as the thread starter and the usurped one at that, I think this topic should be considered closed.

As far as rules are concerned, there is blatant politics and  religion and then there are those cases where the P & R is a by product of the discussion - for example tolls or customs delays, import and export of items could be a result of political and even in some areas religious thought, whereby they have a direct bearing on the topic being discussed - but are not personally party political.

Therefore I don't think a slight slide into eithe rof those areas should be forbidden out of hand, and they can be discussed civilly if the participants, took a deep breath and perhaps waited a few hours before thumping the send button - sometimes things written look out of place a little while later after the crimson has ebbed below eyeball level.

Threads should be stopped once they loose their humour or humor (either or), and the insults are brazen. I realise Vitiliy has said he doesn't care what people say about him, which is OK, but other people mostly do at one time or another care what is said about them, especially if the language is not humourous or witty. Of course I like witty put downs, but I claim that to be because I'm British.

Colin the usurped one! --
CDB, colinspamKILLspambtech-online.co.uk on 29/11/2010
Web presence: http://www.btech-online.co.uk   Hosted by:  http://www.justhost.com.au
 

2010\11\29@033344 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
 On 29/11/2010 00:54, Vitaliy wrote:
{Quote hidden}

There is also the option of an upper limit. Perhaps x2 isn't an unreasonable upper limit given perhaps higher transport costs, overtime, risks etc.

Zero control and excessive or the wrong control both seem to lead to much evil

2010\11\29@033824 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
 On 29/11/2010 01:11, Vitaliy wrote:
> AFAICT, most people couldn't
> care less about the company owner's philosophical views when deciding
> whether or not to do business with the company.
>
> Vitaliy
>
Unfortunately true.

Or else they are people manipulated by some special interest group with misleading info that results in an unjust attempted boycott of a company or product.
Everything from Mobile Phone masts to Mars Bars and Washing powder.

Perhaps people should just make judgements on the product they are actually buying, unless there is incontrovertible universally agreed evidence that the Company is "absolutely evil".

2010\11\29@042307 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
 On 29/11/2010 04:38, Kerry Wentworth wrote:
> [snip ... ]
>
> I am a moderator on a political forum, and I know how hard it is.  You
> can't possibly write a set of rules that cover everything.  The rules
> are a guideline, and the moderators are the judges.  It would be nice if
> the posters could act like adults, but that's not going to happen, trust
> me.  The moderators have to be the adults.
>
> You can't jump on somebody because they say "I don't like the USPS
> because it's tax subsidized" or "I don't like Fedex because it's
> non-union" (assuming it's within the context of 'shipping'),

yes

> but when
> the discussion degenerates, you need to say "enough", and posters need
> to know it's time to knock it off.
>
> Kerry
>

Agreed

+1

2010\11\29@043533 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
 On 29/11/2010 05:21, RussellMc wrote:
{Quote hidden}

To many outside US the "fear" of Socialism and it's cousins, Liberals, Libertarians etc and sharp distinction between Democrats and Republicans seems strange. Both parties seem very conservative, though with different emphasis. I've been a few times to USA. What seem like huge contradictions to me are apparently of no consequence in USA and vice versa. I'm sure any examples would enrage some USA folks and have both disagreements and head nodding outside USA. So I won't.

The oft claimed "individuality" and "freedom" of speech and "Free market" of USA seem strange claim from outside as well.

So perhaps someone in USA is not the best to define Politics but someone outside the USA is not the best to decide on what might lead to "boot throwing" and "shooting" and perceived as politics in USA.

Maybe the In USA and non-USA Admins need to consult (off list) and post an agreed text when wanting to reply to something deemed Political?

2010\11\29@043714 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
 On 29/11/2010 07:00, Oli Glaser wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I didn't think he was suggesting this actually.
> If I take this as an"isolated incident" (I have little knowledge of
> conduct prior to this - do "previous offences" have an admin weighting
> factor?) I have *far* more problem with ad hominem "you disgust me",
> "...slime you ooze..." etc.

Agreed
{Quote hidden}

+1
>

2010\11\29@051307 by Oli Glaser

flavicon
face
On 29/11/2010 08:33, Michael Watterson wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Indeed - usually quite true. Life is an exercise in moderation... If I find myself having "extreme" thoughts/feelings it's generally a good indicator that it's time to stop and have a good think. Sometimes my "real" brain kicks in too late though.. :-)
The problem with even the most "infallible" and well constructed laws is that you need completely fallible humans to enforce/abide by them. I'm quite big on tolerance - one of the things we seem to find the hardest is accepting faults/differences in others. To quote the Dalai Lama: "In the practice of tolerance, one's enemy is the best teacher"

2010\11\29@052254 by Oli Glaser

flavicon
face
On 29/11/2010 09:37, Michael Watterson wrote:
>    On 29/11/2010 07:00, Oli Glaser wrote:
>> On 29/11/2010 03:39, RussellMc wrote:
>>
>> Although I don't agree with some of them, I have no real problem with
>> Vitaliys comments or views here, and am reasonably sure there is more to
>> him than "someone who stands back and lets houses burn down" :-)
> I didn't think he was suggesting this actually.
>

If you mean Vitaliy here, that's what I meant by the above - I didn't think he was suggesting this either. My point was that it was taken out of context, would need further discussion, and so on.

2010\11\29@080812 by Mike snyder

picon face
being an Apathetic adult I will speak this time, IMHO Bob is right, if
you look at the posting ratio Vitality primarily posts political or ad
topics vs Bob who genuinely tries to help with pic topics, given that
Bob has atleast tried to be helpful vs Vitality's posting which are
primarily ad's or garbage and Bob has every right to call him out on
that and in this case Vitality's post is utterly flawed and I am glad
someone called him out.

On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 10:39 PM, RussellMc <.....apptechnzKILLspamspam.....gmail.com> wrote:
>
> IF ALL THE APATHETIC  ADULT CARING LIST MEMBERS DON'T ADD SOME VIEWS
> ON ALL THIS  ABOUT NOW YOU'LL END UP WITH BOB'S VIEW THAT POLITICS IS
> ANYTHING THAT VITALIY SAYS plus some stuff about donkeys and bears.
>
> SPEAK UP NOW, OR BE HAPPY WITH THE CONSEQUENCES.

2010\11\29@083058 by RussellMc

face picon face
> and in this case Vitality's post is utterly flawed

Thanks for comment.
There have been several posts and we have covered quite a lot of
ground so could you please advise which you are referring to here

(eg Private fire service or ...?)



           Russel

2010\11\29@085925 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Carl Denk wrote:
> The whole issue here is, unscrupulous people taking advantage.

No, it's not.  There is nothing unscrupulous going on as long as you're
clear about what you're charging for what product, and the product is
delivered and performs as promised.

It takes two to make a deal.  Unless both the buyer and seller agree it is
in their own self interest to make the deal it won't happen.  If you think
someone is charging a excessive price, don't buy it.  If someone does buy
it, then obviously it wasn't excessive to them, and the "gouger" was
actually providing a service as deemed by the buyer.  Government has no
business getting into the middle of this.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\11\29@091126 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
RussellMc wrote:
> It may be useful if list members OTHER THAN Vitaliy and Bob (and
> russell ? :-) ) say publicly what they think "no politics" may or does
> mean. Having a corporate view may help.

I can see it both ways and don't intend to cast a vote, and will continue to
participate occasionally if it appears to be within rules.  That last part
is tricky.  Sometimes things get stomped on, other times they seem to be let
go.  I thought Bob made it clear this thread was supposed to stop, so I
refrained from posting for a while after that, but then others chimed in
anyway and now you're bringing it up.  Seriously guys, it's a bit confusing
at this end.

However, whatever is decided should apply to all.  It should certainly not
apply more to Vitaliy and less to admins.  Political or economic viewpoints
aren't list administration issues.  It is therefore very wrong and counter
productive in the long term for admins to grant themselves a special pulpit
for such issues.  Breaking into a thread and saying it's outside the list
realm and needs to be stopped is a admin issue, but then you can't use that
as a excuse to put espouse your own point of view.  You can't have it both
ways, at least not if you want to be taken seriously.

> It would be nice for protagonists to change the tag to something
> apposite (but polite :-) ) so that people can decide if it's liable to
> be worth reading.

But I note you didn't.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\11\29@092531 by RussellMc

face picon face
> I can see it both ways and don't intend to cast a vote,

No "vote" desired - but your input useful. Thanks.

....

> > It would be nice for protagonists to change the tag to something
> > apposite (but polite :-) ) so that people can decide if it's liable to
> > be worth reading.

> But I note you didn't.

1. True.

2. Pot, kettle, black, snow, uphill both ways, cardboard box ... (dead
fish?) .. :-)


2010\11\29@093810 by Alexandros Nipirakis

picon face
-- And from the peanut gallery --

Whatever may or may not be construed as politics is clearly irrelevant
in this case.  The point at which simply talking about a government
service, or talking about economics of that service, and politics
comes when the debate becomes whether or not the government should
provide a particular service, or whether or not the government is
right to regulate particular parts of the economy.

Since my opinion adds nothing to the conversation (RE: how moral is
the postal service, how good is it for the government to regulate
price gouging) I won't say my opinion (and besides, others have
already expressed it so it would be redundant at this point).  I think
the only relevant thing I can bring to the table is that this is (in
my opinion) clearly political, and I think you really have to look
past a good deal of the conversation not to find the politics in here.

In the US, there are two theories, one that says the government can
and should provide certain services, the other that says the
government cannot and should not provide certain services.  The debate
is clearly partisan between left and right, and even if you are not in
the US, the debate is essentially the same everywhere.  I trust that
all those involved know that what they were posting was political, and
they are also able to predict the obvious consequence of such an
action.

I think that people on this list already get up in arms enough about
issues having nothing (or little) to do with politics without
interjecting core (and largely subjective) conversations onto the
list.  I feel that if this is what the list is to become, it will
become boring for most people that actually follow the list.

With that said, I think that the admins have the ultimate right to
decide what is and is not allowable.

Aleksei

On 29 November 2010 09:12, Olin Lathrop <EraseMEolin_piclistspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTembedinc.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\11\29@094016 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Bob Blick wrote:
> I'll bring that up at next Thursday's Men's Bible Study and see if I
> can get a concensus about what Jesus would say about letting a man's
> house burn down.
>
> You disgust me. You would take this country back two hundred years.
>
> The kind of slime you ooze is starting to attract dirt.

I've been biting my tongue regarding your comments, but this is too much.
You are entitled to your opinion, as is Vitaliy.  However now you're getting
into religion (totally banned as I understand it), and otherwise just
attacking Vitaliy.  You haven't made a single scientific or reasoned point
above, just declaring Vitaliy a dirtbag.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\11\29@101636 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Michael Watterson wrote:
> There is also the option of an upper limit. Perhaps x2 isn't an
> unreasonable upper limit given perhaps higher transport costs,
> overtime, risks etc.
>
> Zero control and excessive or the wrong control both seem to lead to
> much evil.

What exactly is the evil in someone bringing a pile of generators into a
stricken area and charging whatever he wants for them?  I don't see how this
makes things worse than having it banned.  If everyone else agrees it's evil
he has no customers, loses money, and the situation is taken care of.  If
some do buy his expensive generators, those people didn't think it was evil
and thought his alternative better than all the ones they would have had if
the he had been banned.  Why should this be disallowed because a third party
thinks it's "evil".

It seems to me one of the effects of the Florida law that was quoted here is
to slow down getting resources into a stricken area.  I'll make up a
hypthetical example with probably bogus numbers, but it still illustrates
the point.  Let's say it costs $20 per generator to ship it into the area
normally.  This is when it's done in bulk, lots of lead time, slow but cheap
ship method, using existing distrubution structure, etc.  Let's say it costs
$200 each to bring a smaller number of generators into the area *now*.  If
you were running Home Despot, how much incentive do you have to incurr the
higher cost to get supplies in now if you aren't allowed to charge more for
them?  Let's say the extra $180 per generator wipes out most of your profit..

So you have a choice: Bust your butt to get a few generators in quickly and
loose money in the process, or get a bunch in a week or two later and make
money.  Remember, you're in the stricken area, and your resources are
suddenly crimped too.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\11\29@102317 by RussellMc

face picon face
> However now you're getting
> into religion (totally banned as I understand it), and otherwise just
> attacking Vitaliy.  You haven't made a single scientific or reasoned point
> above, just declaring Vitaliy a dirtbag.

I think that was an attempt at parody and example by Bob.
Maybe not as successful as desired.

I think he was trying to demonstrate the use of N different banned
subjects simultaneously to show how provocative it can be.
Seems to have succeeded.

Here we have religion and hate - the politics may have got lost.
Maybe that should have been 'WWJD re Libertarian dirtbag' :-)?

Seriously - Bob and I are by no means totally disagreed on what is
required - just on methods.
Bob has perhaps got a wee bit close to the subject personally.

My perception is that "no politics" is too loose a rule.
If many things were going to be overlooked in most cases then it may be OK.
But, if Bob want's to curb Vitaliy's libertarian utterings, which he
does choose to  consciously & provocatively utter from time to time,
then we either need a special rule for Vitaliy, or a more manageable
rule that all can happily march to. "Admin's discretion" is fine
enough if the admins can be totally objective. If you have mere humans
in the role it may be a problem.


       Russell



..

2010\11\29@103756 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
RussellMc wrote:
> I think that was an attempt at parody and example by Bob.

Sorry, I didn't catch that.  My apologies to Bob.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\11\29@110718 by Herbert Graf

picon face
On Mon, 2010-11-29 at 10:17 -0500, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> It seems to me one of the effects of the Florida law that was quoted here is
> to slow down getting resources into a stricken area.  I'll make up a
> hypthetical example with probably bogus numbers, but it still illustrates
> the point.  Let's say it costs $20 per generator to ship it into the area
> normally.  This is when it's done in bulk, lots of lead time, slow but cheap
> ship method, using existing distrubution structure, etc.  Let's say it costs
> $200 each to bring a smaller number of generators into the area *now*.  If
> you were running Home Despot, how much incentive do you have to incurr the
> higher cost to get supplies in now if you aren't allowed to charge more for
> them?  Let's say the extra $180 per generator wipes out most of your profit.

Actually, the law as stated ALLOWS for charging more if you can prove it
cost more to get it. Basically, the law states you can charge whatever
you want, as long as your profit margin remains "normal".

I for one don't like "price gouging" laws, but I do understand why some
control is necessary (don't want citizens getting so ticked off at a
gouger that they pull out their 9mms...).

TTYL

2010\11\29@111613 by Kerry Wentworth

flavicon
face
And the reality is, at least according to Florida law, if they helicopter in more generators at great expense, they can charge more for the generators to ensure a profit:

"Florida Statute 501.160 states that during a state of emergency, it is
>> unlawful to sell, lease, offer to sell, or offer for lease essential
>> commodities, dwelling units, or self-storage facilities for an amount that
>> grossly exceeds the average price for that commodity during the 30 days
>> before the declaration of the state of emergency, ***unless the seller can
>> justifying the price by showing increases in its prices*** or market trends.
>> Examples of necessary commodities are food, ice, gas, and lumber."

What they CAN'T do is change the price of candles on the shelf to $300 a box.  They CAN limit quantities to ensure that as many people as possible are able to buy candles.

Kerry


jimspamspam_OUTjpes.com wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> ---{Original Message removed}

2010\11\29@121802 by Herbert Graf

picon face
On Fri, 2010-11-26 at 23:39 +0100, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> > So far I have not been very impressed
> > with the few interactions I've had with the Canadian postal service.
>
> IME Canadian postal services are one of the worst in the 'civilised'
> world. (My father lives over there, and has an even lower opinion of
> them.) Other bad ones are France and Italy.

What kind of experiences have you had? FWIW I find canadapost to be
amazingly good, often better then much more expensive services (i.e.
FedEx).

TTYL

2010\11\29@122447 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face

On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 09:38:07 -0500, "Alexandros Nipirakis" said:

{Quote hidden}

Excellent summation of my feelings, and better than anything I could have written.

But I can share something that may help some of you understand why I may
seem more sensitive than others.

Earlier this year I helped save a man's life. One of the other tenants
where I work burst into my office and said "come quick, Steve's hurt
bad"(His name isn't really Steve). He was laying dead of a heart attack
just inside the large courtyard of the business complex my office is in.
I gave Steve CPR while my neighbor called emergency services(911). About
six or seven minutes later a fire truck with paramedics showed up and
took over. A few minutes after that an ambulance came. They gave Steve a
hypodermic in the chest and also jolts of electricity and got his heart
going and off they went to the hospital where he spent three weeks in
intensive care and another two in the cardiac center after having an
implanted defibrillator. He's doing fine now and scheduled for a bypass
operation soon. Steve is a small business owner and in today's economy
has lots of debt and almost no income and has no health insurance. But
he has gone through the paperwork to be declared indigent and his
medical bills are going to be paid by the state.

If any of the Vitaliy's social or economic policies had been in place,
Steve would be dead today. Either there would be no emergency phone
number, the firemen wouldn't have been trained paramedics or would have
refused to come, the ambulance wouldn't pick him up because he had no
means to pay, the hospital would have refused him, he wouldn't have
gotten the defibrillator, or he would have committed suicide because of
the $729,000 final medical bill(yes, I saw it, it really was $729,000).

So I don't want to hear about Libertarian politics. My friend is alive
today, and they'd have him dead.

Thanks for listening.

Best regards,

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service

2010\11\29@123637 by Alex Harford

face picon face
On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Herbert Graf <@spam@hkgrafKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 2010-11-26 at 23:39 +0100, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
>> > So far I have not been very impressed
>> > with the few interactions I've had with the Canadian postal service.
>>
>> IME Canadian postal services are one of the worst in the 'civilised'
>> world. (My father lives over there, and has an even lower opinion of
>> them.) Other bad ones are France and Italy.
>
> What kind of experiences have you had? FWIW I find canadapost to be
> amazingly good, often better then much more expensive services (i.e.
> FedEx).

Yes, I'm surprised by this as well!  I'm interested in hearing more details..

OT: Santa's Postal Code is H0H 0H0
http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/santa/h0h0h0.as

2010\11\29@123750 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face


On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 04:22:38 +1300, "RussellMc" said:
> > However now you're getting
> > into religion (totally banned as I understand it), and otherwise just
> > attacking Vitaliy.  You haven't made a single scientific or reasoned point
> > above, just declaring Vitaliy a dirtbag.
>
> I think that was an attempt at parody and example by Bob.
> Maybe not as successful as desired.
>
> I think he was trying to demonstrate the use of N different banned
> subjects simultaneously to show how provocative it can be.
> Seems to have succeeded.
>
> Here we have religion and hate - the politics may have got lost.
> Maybe that should have been 'WWJD re Libertarian dirtbag' :-)?

Yes, though I intended it to be an example, using multiple banned
subjects, I guess you could say parody but not funny as I am serious
about keeping the Piclist free of politics and did not want to inject
humor as "WWJD re Libertarian dirtbag" might have done.  Also it was
written quickly in between the different steps of putting grout in tile.

Best regards,

Bob

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and
                         love email again

2010\11\29@133847 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
>> IME Canadian postal services are one of the worst in the 'civilised'
>> world. (My father lives over there, and has an even lower opinion of
>> them.) Other bad ones are France and Italy.
>
> What kind of experiences have you had? FWIW I find canadapost to be
> amazingly good, often better then much more expensive services (i.e.
> FedEx).

Packages returned with an "error in address" or "no such receipient" or something like that for no apparent reason. According to my father a reason is that they are very picky about how an '8' or 'B' should be written (or maybe it was (also?) some other pair or symbols). (This was when I still hand-wrote the address labels.)

--
Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2010\11\29@135958 by Herbert Graf

picon face
On Mon, 2010-11-29 at 19:38 +0100, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> >> IME Canadian postal services are one of the worst in the 'civilised'
> >> world. (My father lives over there, and has an even lower opinion of
> >> them.) Other bad ones are France and Italy.
> >
> > What kind of experiences have you had? FWIW I find canadapost to be
> > amazingly good, often better then much more expensive services (i.e.
> > FedEx).
>
> Packages returned with an "error in address" or "no such receipient" or
> something like that for no apparent reason. According to my father a
> reason is that they are very picky about how an '8' or 'B' should be
> written (or maybe it was (also?) some other pair or symbols). (This was
> when I still hand-wrote the address labels.)

Strange, I've never even had a package returned.

FWIW there are rural areas where addressing can get "interesting", so I
can believe that being a problem in some places. My experience is that
despite clear errors in address (i.e. often the wrong postal code,
sometimes even the wrong city) I've still received my mail, and I've
never had something I've sent returned.

The only mistake I have experience was once sending a letter to my
parents in Austria, it took about 3 weeks longer then it should of. When
they finally received it it had been marked in Australia and then
forwarded to Austria. An honest mistake IMHO. So now I always write the
following:

AUSTRIA
EUROPE

Never had a problem since.

TTYL

2010\11\29@143334 by Vitaliy

face
flavicon
face
Bob Blick wrote:
{Quote hidden}

The above is a gross misrepresentation of my views that I feel I must respond to.

People who believe in personal freedom and individual responsibility, are not evil. I feel compassion for the fellow man, and help those in need to the best of my ability, when I get the opportunity.

Where we differ, is on the role of the state in helping people. While it may sound good in theory, the unintended consequences quickly wipe out any benefits. Take the $729,000 bill, for example. Just think about it: what could the hospital have done to Steve, to rack up such insane bill? Why do things cost so much?*

The usual explanation (espoused even by some economists I respect) is that technology is driving up the cost. New machines, new technologies, computers everywhere. We get better quality care, we are told, that is why healthcare is more expensive today. This sounds plausible, until you consider that everywhere else technology made things *cheaper*: cars, industrial automation, cell phones, etc. Home PC prices are falling even though they are getting ever more powerful.

I struggled with this question for a while, and it wasn't long ago that I understood the reason behind the rising costs: state subsidies. It may sound like a paradox, but you don't need to understand economics beyond the basic law supply&demand to see how this works. When someone else pays for your healthcare, you don't care how the money is spent, and neither does your doctor, who in fact may have the incentive to prescribe very expensive tests & procedures even when much cheaper options are available (you would pick them yourself, if you were paying for the care with your money). State subsidies of healthcare (Medicare, Medicaid) thus create more demand, and since the supply of healthcare, prices go through the roof.

If "my" social/economic policies had been in place, everybody would be more prosperous, and healthcare would cost a fraction of what it does today. Even if Steve was broke, his friends could easily chip in and pay for his medical bills. It would constitute true charity, as opposed to the phony charity which involves doing good at someone else's expense (under the threat of, or actual use of, violence).

Vitaliy

*Earlier this year my newborn contracted a bad case of MRSA (http://tinyurl.com/nikmrsa) that landed him in the hospital. Whenever we would ask how much something cost, we would get strange looks from the nurses, and even the billing department couldn't give us clear answers. Finally, we got a cost breakdown, and learned that Tylenol costs $10 per pill, and that the hospital charges $300/day for a tiny room that my son shared with another patient. Supply and demand.

2010\11\29@150153 by Alexandros Nipirakis

picon face
--- again from the peanut gallery ---

Vitaliy,

What you are espousing is a theory.  It is a theory, I might add,
which you cannot support with practical and real world experiences.

Case in point, you BELIEVE that the costs would be lower were there no
"state" subsidies (I don't know that you can prove this), and in
reality, what you are looking for is the whole system of health
insurance to be eliminated all together.  Its a theory, and I think if
you are being fair you should call it as such.

Unless I am mistaken, there is absolutely no-where on the planet that
has such a system (where health care is completely out of pocket,
there is no state safety net, nor is there health insurance).  If
there is such a place, I would be very interested to know about it.

Equating one thing with another doesn't prove your theory.  There are
reasons why costs are able to be cut.  When it comes to health care,
costs are not able to be cut at all, and it is going to be expensive
whether or not the health care costs come out of your pocket.

Put another way, lets look at caring for a dog (I really hate to
resort to this, but it is in my opinion a fair way of looking at what
you are saying).

Vet costs are high.  Are they as high as they are for humans?
Probably close (I pay about 200 dollars a year to have my dog tested
for various things, get his rabies vaccine, and make sure he is
healthy).  It is not uncommon to blow thousands of dollars on an
animal.  I had a dog who got cancer.  Would cancer treatment been so
low that it was practical for him?  No, it wasn't.  The vet suggested
we put him out of his misery and not waste the money.  So, we put him
down.

Am I saying that if we abolished insurance that this is the kinds of
decisions people would make?  Its a theory.  Perhaps yes, perhaps no.
The point is that there is no example of what you are talking about
for humans, and the best corollary doesn't show what you are talking
about.

This isn't political, since absolutely no politician is advocating
what you are talking about.  Do I think you are a bad person?  No.  I
just think you need to be clear that you are talking theory.  In any
event, the whole discussion is essentially moot in my opinion because
this isn't even what the debate was on to begin with (it started with
a fairly innocuous conversation about the merits of the United States
Postal Service).

Anyways, that's how I see it, and I am sure that is also how others
would also see it.  Note to administrators, my extreme apologies if
this is too political -- it wasn't meant as such.  I think several
statements were made that I felt merited a counter balance, and I felt
I could provide such.

Aleksei

On 29 November 2010 14:32, Vitaliy <KILLspampiclistKILLspamspammaksimov.org> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\11\29@152952 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face

On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 12:32:36 -0700, "Vitaliy" said:

> Where we differ, is on the role of the state in helping people. While it
> may
> sound good in theory, the unintended consequences quickly wipe out any
> benefits. Take the $729,000 bill, for example. Just think about it: what
> could the hospital have done to Steve, to rack up such insane bill? Why
> do
> things cost so much?*

I stand by my statement - if ANY of your basic principles had been in
place, the chain of care would have broken and Steve would be dead.

As far as the hospital bill - I saw the level of care and amount of
equipment used, and it was quite significant. And the $729,000 bill was
retail - if he had paid it as an individual. The state gets a heavily
discounted rate. A rough estimate based on questions I asked my
physician is that the state would only pay about $225,000

So as far as prices being affordable to anyone to just pay with cash or
the charity of friends, I can't envision any system that would make that
possible. I saw the amount of equipment hooked up to him and the level
of care, especially in the first three weeks, it was impressive. At
$225,000 the state is getting a pretty reasonable deal. Remember that
also includes implanting a defibrillator.

I want America to move toward everyone having a safety net. You want the
market to govern, which to me is like life in the jungle. There's no way
we can ever agree on social/economic/political issues.

Enough has been said over the last few days. It's time to move forward
and never do this again.

Best regards,

Bob



-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web

2010\11\29@154832 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Herbert Graf wrote:
> What kind of experiences have you had? FWIW I find canadapost to be
> amazingly good, often better then much more expensive services (i.e.
> FedEx).

Here is just one anecdote.  A bunch of years ago I had a customer at the
University of Southern Ontario in London.  Sending tapes to him took 2-3
weeks.  One time I got a letter from him postmarked Buffalo NY with a US
stamp on it.  I was curious, so I asked him about it next time I talked to
him.  He said the canadian mail is so slow and expensive that there are
private companies that collect mail for the US, drive it over the border,
and dump it on the US post office.  Paying the private currier service was
still cheaper and faster than sending it via the canadian post office.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\11\29@170346 by Carey Fisher

face picon face
On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Vitaliy <RemoveMEpiclistTakeThisOuTspammaksimov.org> wrote:

> ...Take the $729,000 bill, for example. Just think about it: what
> could the hospital have done to Steve, to rack up such insane bill? Why do
> things cost so much?*
>
> The usual explanation (espoused even by some economists I respect) is that
> technology is driving up the cost. New machines, new technologies,
> computers
> everywhere. We get better quality care, we are told, that is why healthcare
> is more expensive today. This sounds plausible, until you consider that
> everywhere else technology made things *cheaper*: cars, industrial
> automation, cell phones, etc. Home PC prices are falling even though they
> are getting ever more powerful.
>
> I struggled with this question for a while, and it wasn't long ago that I
> understood the reason behind the rising costs: state subsidies.


BINGO!!!


{Quote hidden}

In the "old days" when my parents were coming along (40s, 50s, 60s), the
only medical insurance available was called Major Medical.  It covered cases
where extreme care was needed such as hospitalization.  Then the US Gov't
(was it J. Carter?) put in a wage & price freeze.  So employers began
offering newer types of medical insurance as hiring incentives.  Now,
everyone goes to the doctor for a sniffle or their farts smell funny.
Demand is way up; someone else (employer, insurance co and govt) is paying
for it so demand has gone through the roof.  THAT is the cause of high
medical costs.  Common sense to me...

I have a $10,000 deductible per person in order to afford my monthly
premiums!


>
>

2010\11\29@180937 by M.L.

flavicon
face
On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 5:03 PM, Carey Fisher <spamBeGonecareyfisherspamBeGonespamncsradio.com>wrote:

> In the "old days" when my parents were coming along (40s, 50s, 60s), the
> only medical insurance available was called Major Medical.  It covered
> cases
> where extreme care was needed such as hospitalization.  Then the US Gov't
> (was it J. Carter?) put in a wage & price freeze.  So employers began
> offering newer types of medical insurance as hiring incentives.  Now,
> everyone goes to the doctor for a sniffle or their farts smell funny.
> Demand is way up; someone else (employer, insurance co and govt) is paying
> for it so demand has gone through the roof.  THAT is the cause of high
> medical costs.  Common sense to me...
>
> I have a $10,000 deductible per person in order to afford my monthly
> premiums!
>
>
It wasn't Carter, it was Nixon, and it's not 1973 anymore. I don't know
anyone who goes to the doctor for fun, so I guess my anecdotal evidence
negates your anecdotal evidence.

While we're at it, I'll wildly speculate that high fructose corn syrup is
the sole cause that health care is so expensive*
-- Martin K.
* Only mildly joking here

2010\11\29@182846 by Kerry Wentworth

flavicon
face
M.L. wrote:
>
> While we're at it, I'll wildly speculate that high fructose corn syrup is
> the sole cause that health care is so expensive*
>   No, no, it's malpractice insurance.  If doctors are allowed to cut off the wrong leg now and then, health care would be a lot cheaper. ;)

Kerry



-- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 267.11.13 - Release Date: 10/6/05

2010\11\29@183149 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face

On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 17:03:25 -0500, "Carey Fisher" said:

> Demand is way up; someone else (employer, insurance co and govt) is
> paying
> for it so demand has gone through the roof.  THAT is the cause of high
> medical costs.  Common sense to me...

That logic has big holes in it.

Medical care is expensive at retail, ie: when I go to the hospital and
pay cash.

It costs the insurance companies, medicare, etc 70 percent less, because
they get discounts.

Notice what I said. If I pay cash, it costs more. The insurance
companies push the cost(to themselves) DOWN.

I don't know many people who can go to the doctor for free, even with
"good" insurance there seems to always be a co-pay of some sort. That
blows your argument completely out of the water because it keeps demand
low, and the insurance companies are happy.

Medical care was cheaper 50 years ago. Is that such a surprise? You
couldn't get a CT scan back then, either.

A flu shot is cheap because it's a flu shot. Brain surgery is expensive
because it's... brain surgery.

The $10 Tylenol? That is retail, if you paid cash to the hospital. No
way does the insurance company pay that. But you don't see those
receipts. And it always costs more to buy something that is served to
you. It costs $10 for a bottle of mineral water at a restaurant, too.

Insurance companies are not stupid, and they have clout. They don't pay
any more than they have to, they negotiate hard, hard, hard. And they
make a profit year after year.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be

2010\11\29@192137 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
 On 29/11/2010 18:59, Herbert Graf wrote:
{Quote hidden}

My only observation about Canada is that I have never bought from there as the postage to Ireland exceeds even the US. Oddly Australia isn't too bad and China + Hong Kong cheaper than UK (next door).

But we have no Post codes In Ireland.. My Wife entered NA (for not applicable)  *ONCE* in a post code field. The parcel took a long time. But fortunately Namibian Post Office sent it on to Ireland.

Now for Post code /Zip fields that *must* be filled, we think ROI is safer :-) Or EIRE

I have received mail from Middle East once, with just my name and Ireland on the envelope. It's not a rare name. An Post of course has "secret" internal post codes. but that's not going to help decipher the Address or lack of it. At times they are Victorian in efficiency*. Parcel picked up at 5.30pm delivered at other end of Ireland to VERY rural address before 8.00 am


(* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_to_the_North
 UK Postal service instituted in 1840, same day delivery was common in Victorian times )

2010\11\29@221557 by Gaston Gagnon

face
flavicon
face
On 2010-11-29 13:38, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
>>> IME Canadian postal services are one of the worst in the 'civilised'
>>> world. (My father lives over there, and has an even lower opinion of
>>> them.) Other bad ones are France and Italy.
>> What kind of experiences have you had? FWIW I find canadapost to be
>> amazingly good, often better then much more expensive services (i.e.
>> FedEx).
> Packages returned with an "error in address" or "no such receipient" or
> something like that for no apparent reason. According to my father a
> reason is that they are very picky about how an '8' or 'B' should be
> written (or maybe it was (also?) some other pair or symbols). (This was
> when I still hand-wrote the address labels.)
>
Thank you soo much Wouter for sharing yours and your father's experiences with us. Now I understand why the "Canadian postal services are one of the worst in the 'civilized' world."
I will not ask why you think France and Italy are bad ones as well  ;-)



2010\11\30@013126 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Now I understand why the "Canadian postal services are
> one of the worst in the 'civilized' world."
> I will not ask why you think France and Italy are bad ones as well  ;-)

since you don't ask...

France does much the same as Canada, but does not need written labels to do so. Italy simply makes packages disappear.

--
Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2010\11\30@051245 by RussellMc

face picon face
NZ seems to do very well. We have an excellent postal service. So, if
you want to send your parcels and letters safe you should send them
here.

Best example -told of before:

Arriving at work in Hamilton city in a large NZ corporation (in a
previous lifetime) I placed a private letter in my out tray. It was to
a Bank manager in Auckland  - a city about 80 miles from where I was.
I arrived at work next morning and was stunned to find in my in tray a
type-written response to my letter.

Out box - mail clearance - postal centre - 80 mile trip to Ak - mail
clearance and delivery to Bank - letter is read and actioned -
Response types - Place in out tray - mail clearance - 80 mile trip to
Ak - mail delivery - Place in In tray. ~<= 24 hours. Very impressive.


   Russell


On 30 November 2010 19:31, Wouter van Ooijen <TakeThisOuTwouterEraseMEspamspam_OUTvoti.nl> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\11\30@082146 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Michael Watterson wrote:
> Parcel picked up at 5.30pm delivered at other end of Ireland to VERY
> rural address before 8.00 am

Let's keep in perspective that the "other end" isn't that far away since
both ends are constrained to be on the same small island.  Ireland is about
32K square miles.  If that were a circle, the diameter would be 101 miles.
200 miles is therefore a reasonable number for "end to end", for a average
of 14 miles/hour from 17:30 to 8:00.  I don't know, how fast do leprechauns
run?

At that same average speed it would take a letter almost 9 days to get from
here to San Diego.  Of course that's not a fair comparison for a variety of
reasons, not least of which is that most delay is at the ends with the
letter moving fast in the middle, but it does put things into perspective.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\11\30@085551 by Kerry Wentworth

flavicon
face
I ordered some PC boards.  They were mailed Saturday from Portland, Oregon and arrived in NH on Monday. A distance of 3100 miles (5000km) in 48 hours, at a cost of $1.56 (1.2 euro).

Kerry


Olin Lathrop wrote:
{Quote hidden}

-- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 267.11.13 - Release Date: 10/6/05

2010\11\30@091028 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
 On 30/11/2010 13:22, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Michael Watterson wrote:
>> Parcel picked up at 5.30pm delivered at other end of Ireland to VERY
>> rural address before 8.00 am
> Let's keep in perspective that the "other end" isn't that far away since
> both ends are constrained to be on the same small island.  Ireland is about
> 32K square miles.  If that were a circle, the diameter would be 101 miles..
> 200 miles is therefore a reasonable number for "end to end", for a average
> of 14 miles/hour from 17:30 to 8:00.  I don't know, how fast do leprechauns
> run?
>
> At that same average speed it would take a letter almost 9 days to get from
> here to San Diego.  Of course that's not a fair comparison for a variety of
> reasons, not least of which is that most delay is at the ends with the
> letter moving fast in the middle, but it does put things into perspective..

Yes, well, I used to be able to get from Shannon to Boston Twice as fast as from Limerick to Belfast.

Leprechauns, if they existed would break an ankle or get knocked down if they ran.

All the "good" roads radiate from Dublin. There is no Western Seaboard or Midlands "north/south" decent roads.
Of the five main cities there is no major road (that deserves the name) between any of the four cities, only with Dublin.

go maps.google.ie
put Derry and Cork
Hit get Directions
Note it goes via Dublin!
Also the time at just under 6 hrs is optimistic.
Over 300 miles.
A couple of years ago 13hrs was a realistic time.


Experiment. add x1.5 to x2 for realistic times

There are ZERO petrol stations / rest stops on what actual motorways do exist. Fun at night when you are low as there are very very few places open after 10pm or before 7am




Also Ireland is not circular or even close to square.
Total population, N.I. + Ireland of the Island is less than x2 of Brooklyn

2010\11\30@092041 by RussellMc

face picon face
> > Michael Watterson wrote:
> >> Parcel picked up at 5.30pm delivered at other end of Ireland to VERY
> >> rural address before 8.00 am

Farnell order up to 6pm by telephone.
Helps that warehouse is in Australia  "across the ditch" - 2000 miles
of Ocean and 2 hours behind us in time.

Courier drops parcel at front door about 6:45am - just under 12
genuine clock hours.

Having the Leprechaun / Minehune ... swim at around 160 mph is a fair feat.


            Russel

2010\11\30@092114 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
 On 30/11/2010 13:56, Kerry Wentworth wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Also they most mail in Munster to Cork City First, then for Mayo delivery to a different distribution centre

and there are no post codes.

Yet they allege to do electronic sorting.

Perhaps Leprechauns are involved, But I've only seen them in Modern Fiction and Holywood. They don't really figure at all hardly in folk or celtic myth & legend. Maybe you want to read about the "sídhe/"/ Not like Tinkerbell for sure.

2010\11\30@092337 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Kerry Wentworth wrote:
> I ordered some PC boards.  They were mailed Saturday from Portland,
> Oregon and arrived in NH on Monday. A distance of 3100 miles (5000km)
> in 48 hours, at a cost of $1.56 (1.2 euro).

That's very good, but not too unusual.  Are you in Manchester, Nashua, or
Portland, or a more out of the way place like Dicksville Notch or North
Mooseplop?

I've found priority mail between two places that aren't too far off the
beaten path to take two days like the post office says it does.  I even had
a PIC programmer delivered to central Alaska once in two days.  Pretty
impressive in my opinion.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\11\30@093127 by RussellMc

face picon face
> I've found priority mail between two places that aren't too far off the
> beaten path to take two days like the post office says it does.  I even had
> a PIC programmer delivered to central Alaska once in two days.  Pretty
> impressive in my opinion.

Fedex can often take 2 days from Hong Kong to suburban Auckland NZ.
With DHL it MAY arrive in-country as fast but can literally then sit
in the local couriers van for about as long as Fedex takes to deliver
it overall.

R

2010\11\30@095251 by Carey Fisher

face picon face
On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Bob Blick <RemoveMEbobblickspamTakeThisOuTftml.net> wrote:

>
> On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 17:03:25 -0500, "Carey Fisher" said:
>
> > Demand is way up; someone else (employer, insurance co and govt) is
> > paying
> > for it so demand has gone through the roof.  THAT is the cause of high
> > medical costs.  Common sense to me...
>
> That logic has big holes in it.
>
> Medical care is expensive at retail, ie: when I go to the hospital and
> pay cash.
>

That makes no sense.  I've offered to pay cash for discounted medical
services and they readily agreed because it cuts down on the paperwork. Look
how many "admins" a doctor's office has versus doctors and nurses - maybe as
much as 3 or 4 to 1 due to the administrative burdens of filing claims for a
myriad of insurance companies etc.

>
> It costs the insurance companies, medicare, etc 70 percent less, because
> they get discounts.
>

Yeah, they're big enough to  strong-arm the doctors. Sorta like organized
crime selling protection.

>
> Notice what I said. If I pay cash, it costs more. The insurance
> companies push the cost(to themselves) DOWN.
>

Offer cash for a discount.  I'll bet you a USD1.00 they'll say yes.

>
> I don't know many people who can go to the doctor for free, even with
> "good" insurance there seems to always be a co-pay of some sort. That
> blows your argument completely out of the water because it keeps demand
> low, and the insurance companies are happy.
>
> Medical care was cheaper 50 years ago. Is that such a surprise? You
> couldn't get a CT scan back then, either.
>

You couldn't get a computer back then either for less than a few million
USD.  Now, they're dirt cheap.  Moore's law applies to CT and MRI machines
too.

>
> A flu shot is cheap because it's a flu shot. Brain surgery is expensive
> because it's... brain surgery.
>

I believe that medical care has risen more than any other sector in terms of
cost to the consumer.   And it's really going to go up if our elected
representatives continue to make bad choices.


> The $10 Tylenol? That is retail, if you paid cash to the hospital. No
> way does the insurance company pay that. But you don't see those
> receipts. And it always costs more to buy something that is served to
> you. It costs $10 for a bottle of mineral water at a restaurant, too.
>

The $10 Tylenol in the hospital is to help pay for indigent care (people who
can't afford medical care) at the hospital as well as the administrative
load.

>
> Insurance companies are not stupid, and they have clout. They don't pay
> any more than they have to, they negotiate hard, hard, hard. And they
> make a profit year after year.
>
> Cheerful regards,
>
> Bob
>

Have fun!
Carey



>  --
> http://www.fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be
>
>

2010\11\30@101255 by Kerry Wentworth

flavicon
face
Portland?  You mean Portsmouth?

Actually, I'm in Boscawen, just north of Concord.

Kerry


Olin Lathrop wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 267.11.13 - Release Date: 10/6/05

2010\11\30@104359 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Kerry Wentworth wrote:
> Portland?  You mean Portsmouth?

Oops, yes I meant Portsmouth.

> Actually, I'm in Boscawen, just north of Concord.

Two days from Oregon is impressive.  For those that don't know, Concord is a
rather small city, and going north from there it gets remote fast except
right along I-93, like Plymouth or Littleton.


********************************************************************
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(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\11\30@111931 by Kerry Wentworth

flavicon
face
Just because we don't have our own ZIP code doesn't make us hicks, you know!  ;)

Kerry


Olin Lathrop wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 267.11.13 - Release Date: 10/6/05

2010\11\30@113157 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face

On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 09:52:28 -0500, "Carey Fisher" said:

> And it's really going to go up if our elected
> representatives continue to make bad choices.

I think one thing we can both agree upon: they stopped being "ours" a
long time ago :(

Best regards,

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software
                         or over the web

2010\11\30@120908 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Kerry Wentworth wrote:
> Just because we don't have our own ZIP code doesn't make us hicks, you
> know!  ;)

Yeah, right.  Next you're going to tell me you have indoor toilets and
plumbing too.


********************************************************************
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2010\11\30@130737 by Gaston Gagnon

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On 2010-11-30 01:31, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
>   >  Now I understand why the "Canadian postal services are
>   >  one of the worst in the 'civilized' world."
>> I will not ask why you think France and Italy are bad ones as well  ;-)
> since you don't ask...
>
> France does much the same as Canada, but does not need written labels to
> do so. Italy simply makes packages disappear.
>
I see, so Canada gets the worst place because someone could not decipher your scribbling.
But now I'm puzzled. Why Italy did not get your first prize since it makes your packages disappear? Oh I get it, its because you prefer your stuff disappear instead of being returned to you, weird.
Interesting point of view none the less:-)


2010\11\30@141259 by Richard Prosser

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On 1 December 2010 03:30, RussellMc <apptechnzEraseMEspam.....gmail.com> wrote:
>> I've found priority mail between two places that aren't too far off the
>> beaten path to take two days like the post office says it does.  I even had
>> a PIC programmer delivered to central Alaska once in two days.  Pretty
>> impressive in my opinion.
>
> Fedex can often take 2 days from Hong Kong to suburban Auckland NZ.
> With DHL it MAY arrive in-country as fast but can literally then sit
> in the local couriers van for about as long as Fedex takes to deliver
> it overall.
>
> R
>
>

2010\11\30@144046 by Carey Fisher

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On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Bob Blick <EraseMEbobblickspamftml.net> wrote:

>
> On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 09:52:28 -0500, "Carey Fisher" said:
>
> > And it's really going to go up if our elected
> > representatives continue to make bad choices.
>
> I think one thing we can both agree upon: they stopped being "ours" a
> long time ago :(
>
> OH YEAH!!!!!!


> Best regards,
>
> Bob
>
> --
> http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software
>                          or over the web
>
>

2010\11\30@145924 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> I see, so Canada gets the worst place because someone could not decipher
> your scribbling.
> But now I'm puzzled. Why Italy did not get your first prize since it makes
> your packages disappear? Oh I get it, its because you prefer your stuff
> disappear instead of being returned to you, weird.
> Interesting point of view none the less:-)

The rate at which such things happen has some importance!

And IMHO an 8 should be an 8, whether the crossing in the middle is a real crossing or not. I forget which of the two preferences seemed to be required for Canada.

--
Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2010\11\30@154706 by RussellMc

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> And IMHO an 8 should be an 8, whether the crossing in the middle is a
> real crossing or not. I forget which of the two preferences seemed to be
> required for Canada.

I had DHL reject a package because one of the middle-ish letters in
"Bencoolen Street" was deemed to be incorrect.

eg they may have read it as Bencoalen street or Bencoulen street or some such.

The street and unit number were correct, and as the addressee was
"Camera Hospital".

eg
Camera Hospital
34/567 Bencoulen Street  <-say
Singapore.

There aren't too too many Benco[a|e|i|o|u]len streets in Singapore.
And, only one Camera Hospital.
And only one Camera Hospital whose street number and unit number match
the one on my package.

This was just one more step in a chain of utter imcompetence of a
level that you would usually only expect from telephone companies.

They
Claimed it had a battery (nonexistent) in it so diverted it for removal.
Claimed the battery would be sent back to me - never received.
Delayed the parcel for several in Ak subsequently - no reason given.
Claimed duty was due in Singapore despite ALL paperwork at this end
being done to how thatit was not applicable.
       Duty had to be paid to get  parcel released.
Would not deliver due to "wring address" as above.

Overall it cost me about $200 extra and took about 2 weeks to deliver
a parcel from NZ to Singapore.
I was lied to actively and obstructed every day along the way both by
DHL and by the NZ front
This may help explain my current attitude to DHL :-) (quite apart from
their "ALWAYS add at least a day" handling of incoming parcels.)

I suspect that I would have been substantially better off if I'd sent
the shipment via Canada Post.



           Russell McMaho

2010\11\30@232013 by Joseph Bento

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On Nov 30, 2010, at 1:44 PM, RussellMc wrote:
>
>
> There aren't too too many Benco[a|e|i|o|u]len streets in Singapore.
> And, only one Camera Hospital.
> And only one Camera Hospital whose street number and unit number match
> the one on my package.
>
I think our post office (USPS) is quite remarkable at times.

I received a parcel from the UK addressed to me as follows:

Joseph Bento
753 East 1200 North
Pleasant Grove
United States

Note that there is not a US State following Pleasant Grove in the above address.  There are likely many 'Pleasant Groves' in the United States.  There is also not a zip code listed.

Remarkably, the parcel arrived in the same amount of time as one properly addressed.  I figure the USPS must have a database of addresses with surnames as well as personnel that care about proper delivery.  Interestingly, there were also no notes or address corrections on the parcel.  
Many people that wish to see the postal service eliminated because "private enterprise does it better" likely don't take advantage of the services the post office offers.  
Joe


2010\11\30@235306 by John Gardner

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Those unacquainted with the evolution of nation-states might
be interested in their characteristics, one of which is Mail, a
notion which is roughly 300 years old.

No doubt had those involved in making it happen been aware
of modern marvelsl, they'd've folded their hands & waited patiently
for the present age...

Jac


'[OT] Is using USPS ethical? was:Paranoid or just a'
2010\12\01@054524 by CDB
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:: Note that there is not a US State following Pleasant Grove in the
:: above address.  There are likely many 'Pleasant Groves' in the
:: United States.  There is also not a zip code listed.

Many moons ago in another life, the UK post office managed to deliver a letter addressed to,

The New Supermarket, Sundridge Park, London.

True the place was new, and it was near Sundridge Park, but the actual address - was 129, Burnt Ash Lane. Bromley Kent BR1 5AJ -note above they didn't include the post code which in the UK is almost at house level - differentiated by street and odd/even building number.

I was quite impressed at the time.

Colin

--
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Web presence: http://www.btech-online.co.uk   Hosted by:  http://www.justhost.com.au
 

2010\12\01@060020 by SME

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> Many moons ago in another life, the UK post office managed to deliver a
> letter addressed to,
>
> The New Supermarket, Sundridge Park, London.
>
> True the place was new, and it was near Sundridge Park, but the actual
> address - was 129, Burnt Ash Lane. Bromley Kent BR1 5AJ -note above they
> didn't include the post code which in the UK is almost at house level -
> differentiated by street and odd/even building number.

Best I've heard was

                 Robbie, New Zealand.

The then Mayor of Auckland, Sir Dove Myer Robinson, was universally
known as Robbie and very well known.
The letter was sent by an Australian politician when Robbie told him
that the address would work

At one stage

"Piggy, NZ" would definitely have got to the Prime Minister.

"Sir Ed, NZ" to sir Edmund Hillary.

Even now "Shadbolt, NZ" would probably get to the mayor of
Invercargill, and "Tim Shadbolt, NZ" definietly would.

"Dr Ropata, NZ" would still probably get to a man who mis not a Dr and
not named Ropata.

Holmesy ...

And a few more.



              Russell, N

2010\12\01@090733 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 03:44 PM 30/11/2010, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Similar to my recent experiences with DHL. Incompetence, and zero
interest in taking responsibility for fixing their errors, so the
incompetence will _never_ get fixed (cost is pushed to the
customers) by management. We wrote off the $150 cost + hundreds more
in phone calls, letters and so on to tuition for "Courier Companies to
Generally Avoid 101"

>I suspect that I would have been substantially better off if I'd sent
>the shipment via Canada Post.

Without a doubt. A US technical DVD rental place sent me an
(expensive) DVD that was not only missing the postal code, but
had the address fairly mangled. The Postes got it to me with minimal
delay.


>Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
RemoveMEspeffspam_OUTspamKILLspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

2010\12\01@094443 by Kerry Wentworth

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Well, my house was built without those things.  No electricity or phone line, either.  But a previous owner had those things put in.

Kerry


Olin Lathrop wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 267.11.13 - Release Date: 10/6/05

2010\12\01@095831 by Chris Smolinski

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On Nov 30, 2010, at 11:20 PM, Joseph Bento wrote:

> I think our post office (USPS) is quite remarkable at times.
>
> I received a parcel from the UK addressed to me as follows:
>
> Joseph Bento
> 753 East 1200 North
> Pleasant Grove
> United States
>
> Note that there is not a US State following Pleasant Grove in the above address.  There are likely many 'Pleasant Groves' in the United States.  There is also not a zip code listed.
>
> Remarkably, the parcel arrived in the same amount of time as one properly addressed.  
> I figure the USPS must have a database of addresses with surnames as well as personnel that care about proper delivery.  Interestingly, there were also no notes or address corrections on the parcel.  
They do indeed have a database. I ship USPS quite often, creating labels online. If the address isn't in their database, it comes up with an error. I've even had a few cases of people (usually in a new home) not yet in the database, even though they have a "valid" address - they are getting mail there. I usually advise them to check with their post office about that. I even had one reply back that he did, thanking me, because it turned out to be the cause of some mail delivery problems he was having.

I know many of the clerks at my post office, and most them are quite good. There's one however who is quite terrible, he doesn't seem to know how to do anything. Once he was fumbling around for 20 minutes trying to figure out how to send a package of mine to Japan. I avoid him how at all costs, letting people go ahead of me in line if it looks like I'll be stuck with him.  He's got a "20 year service" pin on his uniform, conclude from that what you will.

2010\12\01@100848 by alan.b.pearce

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> He's got a "20 year service" pin on his
> uniform, conclude from that what you will.

It's taken him that long to do the job ... ???
-- Scanned by iCritical.

2010\12\01@113646 by Bob Blick

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On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 21:20:07 -0700, "Joseph Bento" said:

> I think our post office (USPS) is quite remarkable at times.
>
> I received a parcel from the UK addressed to me as follows:
>
> Joseph Bento
> 753 East 1200 North
> Pleasant Grove
> United States

Back when I was in school a roomate and an out-of-state friend used to
experiment with abbreviated addresses and the Post Office. His best was
a letter delivered to him addressed as follows:

DVA
BH
UCLA

His initials were DVA, BH is short for Boelter Hall, the main building
of the engineering department, and UCLA is the University of California,
Los Angeles.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web

2010\12\01@125435 by RussellMc

face picon face
>>I suspect that I would have been substantially better off if I'd sent
>>the shipment via Canada Post.

> Without a doubt.

Noting that I'm in NZ and the parcel was going to Singapore :-)


           Russel

2010\12\01@132502 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 12:54 PM 01/12/2010, you wrote:
> >>I suspect that I would have been substantially better off if I'd sent
> >>the shipment via Canada Post.
>
> > Without a doubt.
>
>Noting that I'm in NZ and the parcel was going to Singapore :-)

Precisely-- in order to drop it off, you'd have gotten a trip to Canada
out of it!

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
RemoveMEspeffTakeThisOuTspamspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

2010\12\01@224536 by John Gardner

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1984-ish, I mailed off a check to my landlord.

A week later he called me to inquire about the rent - I swung
by the bank, then drove to his residence & proffered cash. No
huhu.

Many months later he stopped by, with my check - By way of
Connecticut, if you believe the postmarks.

Dr. Ranganathan & I both lived in San Diego...

Jac

2010\12\02@031639 by Sean Breheny

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In college, I was the treasurer and then president of a student group
who would ask alumni for money to augment the tiny funding we got from
the university. We would send out about 100 newsletters. We would
usually get about 10% of them back for address change-no forwarding
address. I once had one take several months to be returned and it had
made its way from Ithaca, NY, US, to somewhere else in the US (don't
remember exactly where), then to Scotland (!), and then returned to
Ithaca. The intended recipient had indeed lived at the address on the
original label, moved to Scotland and left that address as the
forwarding address, and then moved from the Scottish place without
leaving a forwarding address :)

I also have a co-worker who once had a UPS package get delayed with a
status of "Delivery Exception". A couple of days later this changed to
"Delivery Exception - Train Derailment"!!! He still eventually
received the package.

Sean


On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 10:45 PM, John Gardner <EraseMEgoflo3spamspamspamBeGonegmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\12\04@131451 by Gerhard Fiedler

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Bob Blick wrote:

> On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 18:11:58 -0700, "Vitaliy" said:
>
>> Your comment about "letting a guy's house burn down" is taken out of
>> context. I'd be happy to clarify any points you do not understand,
>> if you wish.
>
> I'll bring that up at next Thursday's Men's Bible Study and see if I
> can get a concensus about what Jesus would say about letting a man's
> house burn down.
>
> You disgust me. You would take this country back two hundred years.
You may take the opportunity and bring also up your reaction to Vitaliy.
While I don't know what Jesus himself would say, I know some about what
some of his followers say that he would say. At least the more moderate
followers I knew (they think, for example, that the Crusades and the
Inquisition were a mistake) generally seem to think that he'd not have
said that someone disgusts him...

I think when arguing something, it's generally a bad idea to bring in
some "higher authority" that can't be cited nor asked. We then are
forced to take someone's word for what the "higher authority" would say
(which generally amounts to accepting that someone as "higher
authority") or to completely disregard that someone. I think you
wouldn't want either, so maybe you consider these choices you leave us
with next time you feel the need to invoke a "higher authority" to help
you argue a point.

Gerhar

2010\12\04@134232 by Gerhard Fiedler

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Bob Blick wrote:

>> 3. If Vitaliy speaks about  anything that has any economic content,
>> even peripherally, this is "often" deemed to be politics and thus in
>> violation of the "no politics" requirement.
>
> I don't want to get into the specifics of political parties, but when
> I see talking points that are used by politicians in an economic
> discussion, that's politics.
You possibly disagree, but your argument ("ask the Bible study circle")
is used by politicians for all sort of things. Besides, it is highly
religious -- and I thought that religion is a clear no-no. I tend to not
get very aroused about religious and philosophical issues but am very
interested in them, so I don't have a problem discussing them, but it
seems some others do have a problem with that and that's why we have the
rule "no religion". Which most seem to abide by.

> The rules are clear enough. Plus, annoying the admins is not the
> smartest course to take.

It seems they are, at least on religion. But it seems to depend on the
annoyance level also, which is much less objective.

> ... and then Vitaliy decides to thrown in a political talking point
> about the USPS. So the discussion was great until Vitaliy decided to
> turn it into a platform for his political opinions.

Which didn't seem to stir up many people... the only one I actually
remember is you. So just letting it be (instead of fanning the flames)
could have worked well.

> At this point I think Vitaliy should not contribute to conversations
> that are likely to cause problems. That seems an easy solution.

I'd say that contributing in a "peaceful" way is ok, but continue to
incite is bad. Even if it is an admin who does it. IMO it wasn't only
Vitaliy who participated in the escalation. It seems odd when one who
participated in an escalation says that this is something the other
shouldn't do. (Maybe another topic for the Bible study circle...)
> That's where the "adult" part comes in. If everyone thinks about how
> diverse the Piclist membership is, with an understanding that we,
> especially in the US, are living in extremely partisan times, then
> the interpretation of "what is politics" becomes much easier.

It seems you don't think that this partisan polarization is a good
thing. So why act as if it were the only choice? Why polarize? There are
probably hundreds of people on this list who don't agree with Vitaliy,
some of them who don't have a problem posting, but most of them had the
self-restraint and didn't make this a polar issue.

> Russell, what do you expect to gain by this? What I am trying to get
> you to understand is that if an admin thinks something is against the
> rules, it probably is against the rules.
It seems there are some rules that are clear beyond interpretation by an
admin -- and it seems that these should be followed even by an admin.

> And frankly, no comments from membership is likely to raise that
> threshold in me. This is the PIC Microcontroller Discussion List, not
> a political forum.
Nor a religious one, right?

> If politics bothers me, and I am an admin, I am going to do my best to
> stomp on it. If some members don't like it, well, that's the way it
> is.

See, I wouldn't have seen anything at all to comment if you had sent
Vitaliy a response like "I'm Bob the admin, and this is political.
Please stop." But this is not what you did; instead you added religion
to an economic/political issue and continued to incite and polarize. Not
quite the "admin way", it seems to me.

> ... just like I do not want to know their sex, race, or religion.

So why did you bring in religion then? You don't want to know about
others' but don't have a problem letting others know about yours?

> I only did it in order to cram my message of community down your
> throats.
I've had my share of experiences with community and communities.
Cramming something down someone's throat generally doesn't seem to
increase the community in communities. Also, whoever thinks he has to
cram, often either misses something or has hidden (or not so hidden)
motives that are not appreciated by the crammed.
Gerhar

2010\12\04@134523 by Bob Blick

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On Sat, 4 Dec 2010 16:14:47 -0200, "Gerhard Fiedler" said:

> I think when arguing something, it's generally a bad idea to bring in
> some "higher authority" that can't be cited nor asked. We then are
> forced to take someone's word for what the "higher authority" would say
> (which generally amounts to accepting that someone as "higher
> authority") or to completely disregard that someone. I think you
> wouldn't want either, so maybe you consider these choices you leave us
> with next time you feel the need to invoke a "higher authority" to help
> you argue a point.

Of course, but there was more going on than that. The larger point was
that there are subjects not allowed on the Piclist and that one must be
sensitive of others. In that post I managed to use three forbidden
topics, and generally I think everyone agrees it was quite over the top.
That was my intention. In a later post I did apologize, but if you
didn't read it, please accept my apology.

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - IMAP accessible web-mail

2010\12\04@140009 by Bob Blick

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On Sat, 4 Dec 2010 16:42:29 -0200, "Gerhard Fiedler" said:

A week ago I would have been interested in answering you but this comes
a bit late to the party. You can write me off list if you like.

Best regards,

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software
                         or over the web

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