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'[OT] Introducing the ISIS component stock database'
2011\03\07@074835 by Gerhard Fiedler

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Olin Lathrop wrote:

> Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
>> I think this has at least also something to do with the way USA-style
>> sales tax works (as opposed to Europe-style VAT).
>
> It's actually not a USA thing, it's up to the individual states.  
Are there any states that have a VAT? Is this even possible, or can
states only have a sales tax?

>> When you buy a part in the USA, you buy it as engineering part or as
>> a production part, and I don't think USA accounting systems have a
>> way to pass parts between the two.
>
> You can easily convert parts in inventory allocated to resale to
> internal use by paying the tax at any time.  Going the other way is
> more complicated.

The degree of hassle probably depends on the company, but in any case it
seems some degree of hassle is written into the way sales tax works.

> but there is no national sales tax or VAT in the US.

I didn't mean to imply that there is a national sales tax in the USA.
But the way the sales tax works is IME quite similar in all states where
they have sales tax -- and different from the principle of VAT (even
though there are similarities -- which are the reason the two can be
compared).

Gerhar

2011\03\07@090424 by Olin Lathrop

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Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
> Are there any states that have a VAT? Is this even possible, or can
> states only have a sales tax?

I don't think any state has VAT, but I don't a state would be federally
prohibited from that.  Anything the constitution doesn't specifically
reserve as rights and powers for the federal government become rights and
powers of the states.  Of course there is a lot of wrangling and argument
about what exactly has been granted to the federal government.  Ultimately
the Supreme Court has to step in and tell everyone what the constitution
says.

In practise, I think it would be very very difficult for a state to pass a
VAT tax.  First the people would be pissed and the legislators would rightly
fear for their jobs.  Second, that would be a major logistical problem for
that state since things move so easily between states, and multi-state
companies could use some creative accounting.  It would also be seen as a
business-unfriendly state, making it hard to attract new manufacturing
plants or to keep existing ones.


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2011\03\07@151713 by Gerhard Fiedler

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Olin Lathrop wrote:

> In practise, I think it would be very very difficult for a state to
> pass a VAT tax.  First the people would be pissed and the legislators
> would rightly fear for their jobs.  Second, that would be a major
> logistical problem for that state since things move so easily between
> states, and multi-state companies could use some creative accounting.
>  It would also be seen as a business-unfriendly state, making it hard
> to attract new manufacturing plants or to keep existing ones.

Would you please explain why you think that a VAT system is less business-friendly than a (typical) USA-style sales tax system?
I think of it as the other way round: The effect is in both cases that the consumer pays the tax and that he pays it only once (no accumulated taxation, as for example with certain taxes in Brazil), but the accounting for VAT is (in principle) simpler -- so VAT removes bureaucracy, and as such is an advantage for all involved.
I did my taxes as a self-employed in Germany for many years, and it was really simple. When I started to do the same in the USA, it was much more complex -- and I didn't even get into sales tax questions, because the benefit of getting a sales tax number, buying components sales-tax free etc. just to spare a few dollars of sales tax wasn't worth all the hassle related to it. (I didn't sell much, mostly providing services.) But I would have liked it if I could have spared myself the expense without the related bureaucracy.

In Germany with the VAT system, there was no bureaucracy at all: I simply discounted every cent (well, back then it was Pfennig) of VAT I had an invoice for from whatever VAT I had to pay for my own invoices. (If the balance was negative, I even got VAT back.) No accounting hassle, whoever sold me components didn't have to get a sales tax id from me, they just sent me an invoice with the VAT spelled out, and I got to deduct that VAT from the VAT I had to pay to the government for my own invoices. To me this seems much more straightforward, and has less bureaucracy involved.

Gerhar

2011\03\07@153737 by Bob Blick

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On Mon, 07 Mar 2011 17:17 -0300, "Gerhard Fiedler" wrote:

> Would you please explain why you think that a VAT system is less
> business-friendly than a (typical) USA-style sales tax system?

No, let's not. This is not a forum for comparative government.

Thanks,

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - A fast, anti-spam email service.

2011\03\08@013909 by N. T.

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Bob Blick wrote:
> "Gerhard Fiedler" wrote:
>
>> Would you please explain why you think that a VAT system is less
>> business-friendly than a (typical) USA-style sales tax system?
>
>
> No, let's not. This is not a forum for comparative government.
>

Different VAT system are allowed to be compared using only numbers,
not emotions, that is a phrase "system is less business-friendly" is
not allowed, but comparing VAT values is OK, is not it

2011\03\08@021452 by Bob Blick

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On Tue, 08 Mar 2011 08:39 +0200, "N. T." wrote:
> Bob Blick wrote:
> > "Gerhard Fiedler" wrote:
> >
> >> Would you please explain why you think that a VAT system is less
> >> business-friendly than a (typical) USA-style sales tax system?
> >
> >
> > No, let's not. This is not a forum for comparative government.
> >
>
> Different VAT system are allowed to be compared using only numbers,
> not emotions, that is a phrase "system is less business-friendly" is
> not allowed, but comparing VAT values is OK, is not it?

Numbers, not emotions, eh? Sorry, not buying it. This is earth we are
on, not Vulcan.

It always ends up being a whining session and then an opportunity for
someone to get on a soapbox.

So please use wikipedia if you need to look up something like that.

If you want to use the Piclist to compare something between countries,
compare wine or personal hygiene or weaponry :)

Or better yet, don't. Just don't.

Thanks,

Bob


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                         wherever you are

2011\03\08@045940 by RussellMc

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Not QUITE a Shaggy Dog story:

> If you want to use the Piclist to compare something between countries,
> compare wine or personal hygiene or weaponry :)

I like to carry a folding pocket knife as a useful tool. I used to
carry a Victorinox and/or a Wenger with all doo das but now a plain
knife seems to meet most needs for persuading things I meet to open
shut fold bend etc. I know enough about using a knife in a fight to
know that if a situation ever arises where a knife may change the
outcome I should bury mine deep in a pocket as the other guy can
almost certainly make better use of it than I can and will probably be
more keen to do so.

On the last two visits  to China I bought nicely made but/although
cheap pocket knives.
The second was "open frame", made only of stainless steel parts.
Largely forged but from two sheets with suitable bendings for spring
blade lock etc. As with many such it can be opened with one hand once
suitable dexterity is obtained. Cost AFAIR was about $US3! Maybe
double that if brain fade is heavier than thought. Either way a
bargain.

The second was more typical but seemed much better built than the many
many models around it on the street vendors stand. Also among his
cheapest. Go figure. Good solid feel. Not a button push flick knife
but sprung so that if you give blade a good starting kick it will
overcente on the spring and fold to the open position and lock there
with a satisfying click. Has a protrusion on inner end of blade such
that strong finger pressure from the closed position will cause the
above action. Sio knife can be withdrawn from pocket and opened as it
clears the pocket ready to fold bend shut open lever hammer jemmy pry
et al. Also shuttable one handed. Both actions smooth and fast once
brain gets trained. Even old brain manages.

Both knives are typical of zillions I have seen at shows, shops
arcades street stands and more in China and NZ. Very common fare,
although these are (I deem) better built per $ than most.

I carry knives in an outer pocket on my checked bag when flying. Legal
and allows last minute transfer when checking bags. Forget it and you
lose your knife. XRay no doubts shows the knife or knives but they are
happy.

Somebody queried the legality of these knives. I assured them they are
fully legal and highly available everywhere. A quick web check
suggests that while the latter is true, the former may well not be.
Very annoying. NZ, China and most other places seem to have an
aversion to the knife with the satisfying click, even though the other
would be only tens of milliseconds behind it when opened one handed.
And that one also is arguable. So I'm annoyed and uncertain. The risk
is that at some random future point a customs or others security man
having a bad day may decide to make mine much worse than his. Or
somebody here could, at least technically. Shame to lose such nice
toys.

NZ wine is generally held to be superior to Chinese wine, at least by NZ ers.

NZ & China both seem to offer ample showering opportunities, except in
parts Christchurch.

Is that the sort of thing you had in mind ?

;-)


Back to work



         Russel

2011\03\08@051236 by N. T.

picon face
RussellMc wrote:
> Not QUITE a Shaggy Dog story:
>
>> If you want to use the Piclist to compare something between countries,
>> compare wine or personal hygiene or weaponry :)
>
....
>
> Is that the sort of thing you had in mind ?
>
> ;-)

He did not say "personal weaponry", so you can compare strategic
weaponry, but you are not allowed to compare VATs. :-

2011\03\08@132852 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Bob Blick wrote:

> On Mon, 07 Mar 2011 17:17 -0300, "Gerhard Fiedler" wrote:
>
>> Would you please explain why you think that a VAT system is less
>> business-friendly than a (typical) USA-style sales tax system?
>
> No, let's not. This is not a forum for comparative government.

When you write something like this, I never know whether you wrote it as
a "normal" person and just got up with the wrong foot or don't like the
poster, or whether you wrote it as an admin, enforcing an existing rule
or creating a new one.

The difficulty is that the recommended action is completely different in
these cases.

If this was posted as a "normal" poster, it is not only not contributing
to the discussion but actually flame bait, so the responsible thing
would be to ignore it.

If this was posted as an admin, it creates a new rule. The new rule may
be that discussions about "comparative government" (the meaning of which
is not fully clear to me) are banned from now on, or that "comparative
<anything>" (with the exception of wine, personal hygiene and weaponry)
is now banned. This would include most of science (as it is by
definition "comparative").

I don't see a clear pattern here; for example, IMO comparisons of
personal hygiene between countries are much more likely to offend and
end up in a flame thread than comparisons of taxation methods, which
besides personal preference or familiarity have a number of objective
traits that can be compared objectively.

So if this was an admin post, I suggest that you mark future admin posts
as such, so that people know how to read it (that is, whether to follow
it as admin post or ignore it as flame bait). And if the admins make new
rules, I suggest that they are spelled out and if possible also put
somewhere more permanent than a single post. Otherwise it's difficult to
follow the rules.


I didn't see anything offensive in either my or Olin's posts. They
probably were more fact-oriented and neutral in tone than many posts in
EE or TECH, and they were in OT. But these may not be the actual
criteria to measure the acceptability of posts... so it would be helpful
to have the actual rules spelled out somewhere.
Gerhar

2011\03\08@135426 by Bob Blick

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On Tue, 08 Mar 2011 15:28 -0300, "Gerhard Fiedler"
<spam_OUTlistsTakeThisOuTspamconnectionbrazil.com> wrote:
> Bob Blick wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 07 Mar 2011 17:17 -0300, "Gerhard Fiedler" wrote:
> >
> >> Would you please explain why you think that a VAT system is less
> >> business-friendly than a (typical) USA-style sales tax system?
> >
> > No, let's not. This is not a forum for comparative government.
>
> When you write something like this, I never know whether you wrote it as
> a "normal" person and just got up with the wrong foot or don't like the
> poster, or whether you wrote it as an admin, enforcing an existing rule
> or creating a new one.

Fine, if you can't figure out when I say "no" and "this is not a forum
for..." that what I mean is "no" and "this is not a forum for..." then
just figure I am always being a mean overbearing admin and stop posting.

> If this was posted as an admin, it creates a new rule.
What is this stuff about "rules"? If you piss me off, you'd better be
ready to take some heat. If you try to tell me what my job is, it doubly
pisses me off. It's my job to maintain order and I do it. It's your
responsibility to act smart and not be a troll. I'm not trying to ruin
your life, I am keeping the Piclist within bounds and I know some of the
things that take it out of bounds.

In other words, I am touchy and when I see someone posting something I
don't like, I let them know. I start out fairly polite. Just to let you
know, I have now stopped being polite so I advise you to move on to
another thread.

Best regards,

Bob

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