Further to International standardization ....... ( EE tag )
DECIMAL POINT not decimal in Holland (oops .. in The Netherlands).
I write 1.000.999,88 for a big number back home (my previous home) in
Netherlands.
(like when I have a million Euros .... and some change)
and 1,000,999.88 when I am in USA.
is this 'comma for decimal point' all over Europe, WW-except-USA and PHL
or what?
>
> On Sat, 8 Oct 2005, Harold Hallikainen wrote:
>
>> A recent post mentioned the CGS and MKS systems. It SEEMS to me that
>> every
>> unit should just be based on the basic units, ie meter, not centimeter,
>> gram, not kilogram, etc. Why do we have CGS and MKS intead of MGS?
>
>
> It's those men in Paris who did it.
>
> Peter
> is this 'comma for decimal point' all over Europe
Comma for decimal point seems to be only a continental
European thing. I get a little confused sometimes reading
anything in French. You see 1,016 and then realise it's
1 point 016, not 1000 and 16 (similarly with pricing). In
the UK, NZ and Australia it's decimal point for a fraction,
comma for 1000s
>> is this 'comma for decimal point' all over Europe
>
> Comma for decimal point seems to be only a continental European thing.
Not quite... it's also the ISO standard for drawings -- of course only for
who cares about international standards :)
There's also an "SI style" that replaces the thousand separator with a
space (for users of both decimal comma and decimal point) and thus makes
ambiguities less probable, no matter whether a decimal comma or decimal
point is used.
While pretty much all of continental Europe uses the decimal comma, there
are many countries outside Europe that do so, too. Of course every country
that has been occupied at one point or other by the British or had strong
ties to British or US-American cultures in the early stages of industrial
development has a high probability to have adopted the decimal point.
>
> Further to International standardization ....... ( EE tag )
>
> DECIMAL POINT not decimal in Holland (oops .. in The Netherlands).
>
> I write 1.000.999,88 for a big number back home (my previous home) in
> Netherlands.
> (like when I have a million Euros .... and some change)
> and 1,000,999.88 when I am in USA.
I think in the Netherlands they use
decimal , for money
but
decimal . in technic / science
Brazil uses the point for thousands and the comma for decimals too.
Although I am not sure, I think it is the same for the rest of South
America too.
-Mario
>> is this 'comma for decimal point' all over Europe
>
> Comma for decimal point seems to be only a continental
> European thing. I get a little confused sometimes reading
> anything in French. You see 1,016 and then realise it's
> 1 point 016, not 1000 and 16 (similarly with pricing). In
> the UK, NZ and Australia it's decimal point for a fraction,
> comma for 1000s
>
> -
That is strange. Which ISO standard? Or is it just an EN standard?
I thought it was a Germany thing because I only see this behavour
from the colleagues in Germany. Even for them, the technical documentations
are mostly using "." and not ",". However they sometimes forget this
and use "," and cause quite some confusions. Another common
confusion is caused when they pronounce "I" ([ai]) as [i:].
Which part of the world follow this continental European convention?
At least I know that in Singapore and China, people are using "."
And it is the same in US and Japan. I guess India is also using ".",
so only the monority in the world is using ",".
> Jinx wrote:
>
> >> is this 'comma for decimal point' all over Europe
> >
> > Comma for decimal point seems to be only a continental European thing.
>
> Not quite... it's also the ISO standard for drawings -- of course only for
> who cares about international standards :)
>
> There's also an "SI style" that replaces the thousand separator with a
> space (for users of both decimal comma and decimal point) and thus makes
> ambiguities less probable, no matter whether a decimal comma or decimal
> point is used.
>
> While pretty much all of continental Europe uses the decimal comma, there
> are many countries outside Europe that do so, too. Of course every country
> that has been occupied at one point or other by the British or had strong
> ties to British or US-American cultures in the early stages of industrial
> development has a high probability to have adopted the decimal point.
>
> See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_separator
>
> Gerhard
> I think in the Netherlands they use
> decimal , for money
> but
> decimal . in technic / science
Shouldn't 'they' be 'we' or did you emigrate recently?
I think in NL we officially use , for everything, but most people who
are involved in thechnical things will use a . I even use a . in my
invoices, which is probably not correct.
BTW my vote would be to use *only* a . Who needs a thousands etc.
separator?
Wouter van Ooijen
-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:42:41 +0200, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
>...<
> I think in NL we officially use , for everything, but most people who
> are involved in thechnical things will use a . I even use a . in my
> invoices, which is probably not correct.
What do calculators have over there? What about the numeric pad of a PC keyboard?
> BTW my vote would be to use *only* a . Who needs a thousands etc. separator?
Humans! :-) I need to be able to see quickly if I'm tens of millions in debt, or only millions... :-(
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 22:31:19 +0800, Xiaofan Chen wrote:
>...<
> Which part of the world follow this continental European convention?
> At least I know that in Singapore and China, people are using "."
> And it is the same in US and Japan. I guess India is also using ".",
> so only the monority in the world is using ",".
I think it's basically UK and former colonies that use 1,000.00 whereas Continental Europe uses 1.000,00 - I'd
guess that former Dutch, Spanish, French, Portuguese colonies use the latter.
> > I think in NL we officially use , for everything, but most
> people who
> > are involved in thechnical things will use a . I even use a . in my
> > invoices, which is probably not correct.
>
> What do calculators have over there? What about the numeric
> pad of a PC keyboard?
I would not touch anything but a US keyboard, and the calculators of
course have a . Have you ever used a computer programming language that
used a , as decimal separator? Try to market a Dutch keyboard or a
calculator with a , here and you will be locked up for insanity. We're
not the French ;)
> > BTW my vote would be to use *only* a . Who needs a
> thousands etc. separator?
>
> Humans! :-) I need to be able to see quickly if I'm tens of
> millions in debt, or only millions... :-(
I think an (optional) space or underscore would be more appropriate.
BTW in Jal I allowed an underscore inside a numeric literal. It has no
influence on the value, but it can be used 'as the users sees fit' to
make a value more readable. For instance 0b_1100_0011. Are there any
other languages that allow something like this?
Wouter van Ooijen
-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu
>On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:42:41 +0200, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
>
>
>
>>...<
>>I think in NL we officially use , for everything, but most people who
>>are involved in thechnical things will use a . I even use a . in my
>>invoices, which is probably not correct.
>>
>>
>
>What do calculators have over there? What about the numeric pad of a PC keyboard?
>
>
I checked 7 calculators and 11 keyboards, and they (or is it we ;-) all
have "."
But why bother, if you use decent programs like M$-office,
the office suite uses a special "decimal separator",
and you can type a decimal charater how you like it ,
then someone else can read your decimal character as he/she likes it.
Windows, wonderfull ;-)
> While pretty much all of continental Europe uses the decimal comma, there
> are many countries outside Europe that do so, too. Of course every country
> that has been occupied at one point or other by the British or had strong
> ties to British or US-American cultures in the early stages of industrial
> development has a high probability to have adopted the decimal point.
>
In Brasil we use comma for decimal (i.e. 12.345.443,892). Now after spending
5 years here in the USA I get confused when I see a number formated like
this. I'm starting to think in inches, feet and miles, but temperature is
still in C.
> 5 years here in the USA I get confused when I see a number
> formatted like this. I'm starting to think in inches, feet and
> miles, but temperature is still in C.
Yes, young Padu.... Feel your English units... Come to the dark side!
>>> is this 'comma for decimal point' all over Europe
>>
>> Comma for decimal point seems to be only a continental European thing.
>
>Not quite... it's also the ISO standard for drawings --
>of course only for who cares about international standards :)
>
>There's also an "SI style" that replaces the thousand
>separator with a space (for users of both decimal comma
>and decimal point) and thus makes ambiguities less probable,
>no matter whether a decimal comma or decimal point is used.
Know you know why components use the multiplier letter as the decimal
position in Europe - saves lots of confusion over what symbol is used for
the decimal point, - i.e. 1k5 for a 1 point 5 kohm resistor.
- Starting from, and on either side of, the decimal mark, digits should be
placed into groups of three.
- The groups should be separated by a small space, never a comma or point.
[Helps avoid ambiguities; both 2.850 and 2,850 could be two thousand
something or two and something, but 2 850 is unlikely to be taken as not
being two thousand something.]
- The decimal sign is a comma on the line.
- In English language documents a point on the line is often used instead
of a comma, and this usage is acknowledged in the ISO 31 standard. [Refers
to plain language documents, not technical drawings.]
- The comma must never be used as the thousands mark. [See above about
ambiguities.]
- A million is written as '1 000 000' and a millionth as '0,000 001' or
'0.000 001' and so on.
> Another common confusion is caused when they pronounce "I" ([ai]) as
> [i:].
The problem is that there are /no/ rules of pronunciation in English.
Either you know how to pronounce a word, or you don't -- no way to figure
it out (like you can in Latin languages; there are clear pronunciation
rules for most combinations of letters). And even some native speakers only
/think/ they know, and then there's AE and BE and AuE and NZE and IE and ME
and ... (in no particular order), and each of them may use a pronunciation
of [ai] where another uses an [i:] :)
> Which part of the world follow this continental European convention?
It's not "a part", it's a number of countries. Just have a look at the link
I provided:
To me, it seems that Howard is on to something when he says "I think it's
basically UK and former colonies". Most others seem to use the comma.
> in Singapore
AFAIK, former British colony.
> and China,
Not quite a British colony, but it's first strong commercial contacts with
European culture were with the British -- again AFAIK. My knowledge of
Asian history is spotty...
> the same in US
Former British colony. They still use "imperial" units in domestic trade :)
> and Japan.
Not sure why there, but possibly that has its roots in the US occupation
after WW2? Or was it already like this before WW2? If so, possibly because
of the British domination of commerce with Europe in that region.
> India is also using ".",
Former British colony.
> so only the monority in the world is using ",".
Correct. It seems that's because only a minority in the world resisted the
British domination :)
BTW, it seems the British have abandoned their Commonwealth also in this
respect -- the new British standard for technical drawings (BS 8888) adopts
the decimal comma.
I don't know when and why the comma was adopted by ISO. My guess is that
this was because the main countries that are using the dot traditionally
don't (or didn't) value international standards much. As the "main
countries" I see China, India and the USA. Both China and India only
recently started to participate in international commerce, see the
importance of international standards and gain weight in shaping them, so
they may have not had a strong position (or cared much) by the time ISO
31-0 was created. The USA traditionally don't care much for international
standards -- neither in creating them nor in following them (which is a
precondition for their creation, of course) --, so their participation in
creating them often is not strong. Possibly a combination of factors like
these left the "dot side" without strong representation in ISO during the
creation of this standard.
I see one practical and one esthetic reason for the comma. The practical
one is that the dot is just too easy to vanish (or appear) in bad faxes and
copies; a comma is more substantial in print. The esthetic one is that I
like the dot as the end of a sentence, and not in the middle of a sentence,
as it appears when using numbers with decimal fractions (like currency
values) in sentences.
Singapore and India are indeed former British colonies and are both
commonwealth countries now as well as Australia and New Zealand.
Indeed the former British Empire was so big and thus PIClist is using
English, not any other language. ;-)
Still I see the wiki page (by no means should be considered as
correct) of ISO_31-0 at the following URL. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_31-0
the wavelength is $B&K(B = 6.982 $B!_(B 10$B!](B7 m
It is using dot and not a comma. Therefore I guess in the technical
field people are still using dot instead of comma.
Maybe ISO-31's next revision will use dot when China, India, USA and
Japan pay more attention to the standards. ;-)
The standard we deal with are mostly EN/ISO/IEC standards with
EN50178/EN60947 and IEC61000 being the most frequently referenced,
but lately I also need to reads UL508 and UL840 as well. And China's
CCC mark become the latest standard we need to apply for
AC powered device even though I still have no much ideas on how
to apply for the CCC mark.
The major problem is that different standard body (or different
standard expert) interpretes the standard differently. I think my
company employs quite some standard expert to deal with
certification and it tends to be quite expensive.
Regards,
Xiaofan
On 10/13/05, Gerhard Fiedler <.....listsKILLspam@spam@connectionbrazil.com> wrote:
>...
> I see one practical and one esthetic reason for the comma. The practical
> one is that the dot is just too easy to vanish (or appear) in bad faxes and
> copies; a comma is more substantial in print. The esthetic one is that I
> like the dot as the end of a sentence, and not in the middle of a sentence,
> as it appears when using numbers with decimal fractions (like currency
> values) in sentences.
>
> Gerhard
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, James Newtons Massmind wrote:
>> 5 years here in the USA I get confused when I see a number
>> formatted like this. I'm starting to think in inches, feet and
>> miles, but temperature is still in C.
>
> Yes, young Padu.... Feel your English units... Come to the dark side!
I don't know about dark but every time I see advertisements like '15
gauge whatever' I throw a fit trying to convert it into something less
corncob-related. My unit converter refuses to convert 'nail gun'
gauges and such. Oh, and the unit converter is usually the *nix 'units'
program which is about as American as it gets. Google is also lost at
converting 'gauges'. Maybe NIST should publish a table of 'gauges'
somewhere, even if for historical purposes.
> Still I see the wiki page (by no means should be considered as
> correct) of ISO_31-0 at the following URL.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_31-0
> the wavelength is λ = 6.982 × 10−7 m
>
> It is using dot and not a comma. Therefore I guess in the technical
> field people are still using dot instead of comma.
It's not about the technical field. In "dot countries", the decimal point
is used in all sorts of documents (technical and otherwise); in "comma
countries", the decimal comma is used likewise. In international
information exchange, I think the more knowledgeable, flexible and/or
courteous participant tends to use the standard of the partner.
As far as I understand ISO 31-0, the comma is only required for /drawings/.
In other documents, the use of the dot is acknowledged. (In this sense, the
Wikipedia entry above is perfectly standard-conform -- and since it's in
English, it of course uses the dot.) IMO the most important thing to keep
in mind from ISO 31-0 is to please not use commas or dots as thousand
separators. This is a safe recipe for misunderstandings... non-breaking
spaces are much better.
> Maybe ISO-31's next revision will use dot when China, India, USA and
> Japan pay more attention to the standards. ;-)
I hope they start to do so. It's a pain for everybody who works across
borders. But participating in the creation of international standards
always also means working with them -- and in the creation of international
standards, no single country has a monopoly, so when working with them,
every country has to give in every now and then. And that's hard for some.
BTW, using a space instead of the comma (or the dot) as a thousand
separator has been adopted by most reasonable national standards bodies,
like the NIST http://www.physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/checklist.html. What's
missing is that somebody listens to them :)
connectionbrazil.com> wrote:
