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'[OT] If you still think there are no bad questions'
2010\09\18@170915 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
I get messages occasionally from morons that think I've got nothing better
to do than to be their private unpaid consultant.  Usually I just delete
them with all the other spam.  But I'm passing on one I got this morning for
your entertainment, and since it's timely to our recent discussion and also
proves my point so nicely.

{Quote hidden}

No, I didn't make this up or edit it other than to remove some header lines
and the email address.  I don't care if his address gets plastered accross
the net, but I don't want any wannabes here actually answering this loser.

It's amazing he can spell PIC, let alone dsPIC, without having graduated
past the baby talk stage.  I suppose it could be a troll, but it's still
funny in any case.

Hmm.  Maybe the right response is "duz momy no ur plying wit d puter agan".


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\09\18@175851 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
 On 18/09/2010 22:09, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> I get messages occasionally from morons that think I've got nothing better
> to do than to be their private unpaid consultant.  Usually I just delete
> them with all the other spam.  But I'm passing on one I got this morning for
> your entertainment, and since it's timely to our recent discussion and also
> proves my point so nicely.
>
I'm just glad I don't have a bicycle and that I didn't ask for advice how to lubricate it. Knowing very little about the subject, I'd be unsure now what the good answer is

2010\09\18@181552 by Tony Smith

flavicon
face
>   On 18/09/2010 22:09, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> > I get messages occasionally from morons that think I've got nothing
> better
> > to do than to be their private unpaid consultant.  Usually I just
> delete
> > them with all the other spam.  But I'm passing on one I got this
> morning for
> > your entertainment, and since it's timely to our recent discussion
> and also
> > proves my point so nicely.
> >

> I'm just glad I don't have a bicycle and that I didn't ask for advice
> how to lubricate it. Knowing very little about the subject, I'd be
> unsure now what the good answer is.


Does everything rotate freely?  Good enough, go get on with life.

Tony

2010\09\18@184406 by David Meiklejohn

face
flavicon
face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
>
> I get messages occasionally from morons that think I've got nothing
> better
> to do than to be their private unpaid consultant.  Usually I just
> delete
> them with all the other spam.  But I'm passing on one I got this
> morning for
> your entertainment, and since it's timely to our recent discussion and
> also
> proves my point so nicely.

Ouch!  That one's bad, but not much worse than a few of the ones I get sent..

I've written an (incomplete) set of PIC tutorials, and this seems to make
people think I'll not only answer all their questions (that are already
answered to the best of my ability in the lessons), but write their code for
them.  Where it's really annoying is when someone has jumped and say read
the lesson on timers, but no earlier lessons, so they ask me something like
"so what's this TRIS thing?"  
Usually I just ignore the stupid questions (90% of them!), but the ones that
are hard to ignore are people who write to tell me that my code is wrong and
can't possibly work, and helpfully offer to show me how to fix it.  It seems
to never occur to them that I might have done some testing before putting
the tutorials out there...


Cheers,
David Meiklejohn
http://www.gooligum.com.au


2010\09\19@024112 by Marechiare

picon face
>> I'm just glad I don't have a bicycle and that I didn't ask
>> for advice how to lubricate it. Knowing very little about
>> the subject, I'd be unsure now what the good answer is.
>
>
> Does everything rotate freely?  Good enough, go get
> on with life.

Sure, though some lard (pig fat) from kitchen won't hurt, I think.

2010\09\19@034115 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

> Knowing very little about the subject, I'd be unsure now what the  
> good answer is.

I OFTEN find that I learn the most from a discussion if two or more  experts start arguing about the details, whether or not I had my own  opinions to start with...


> Whether a question is bad or not can only be judged within its  
> context.
    :
>  Subject: pls hlp me!!!!!!! urgent!!!!!

I've been hanging out a lot in the Arduino forums.  There are a lot of  really awful questions, many of which start with subjects similar to  Olin's quote.

But perhaps this is a context thing as well.  Are there not contexts  where the correct etiquette involves first checking to see whether  anyone is willing to acknowledge that you have a question, and THEN  providing the details?  Think "raise your hand" from most every  schoolhouse classroom.  (Just another thing that different about email/ forums.  Alas (?) assorted "online conferencing" software attempts to  recreate that model...)

BillW

2010\09\19@172530 by Robert Bullock

flavicon
face
What makes this such a bad question. That he is asking you. I could
certainly read his question just fine. In regards to the language, I have
seen many questions that are not as well written as that one from people who
do not have English as their first language, as may be the case with him as
well. And I have always been impressed as to how tolerant people are to
allow for this. If it is because of the extensive use of abbreviations, that
is extremely common if it is being sent from a cell phone. The younger
generation that has grown up with this would not even understand your point
as they would simply read it and not even be aware of the truncating.

Granted if he entered this via a keyboard, it would have been better to use
full words, however, maybe he is typing with a stick in his mouth. You just
never know. So I am always careful before labeling someone a MORON. He is
obviously new to the list or he would have known better than to ask you a
question.

Regards


{Original Message removed}

2010\09\19@183500 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Robert Bullock wrote:
> What makes this such a bad question.

Seriously!!?  You would be well advised to read the internet standard
reference "How to Ask Questions the Smart Way"
(http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html) before asking anything
here or most other places on the internet.

Anyway, in case you're not just trolling, let me count the ways:

1 - He asked me privately, not on a public forum or list.  There are some
reasons for me to help people publicly, but very few to do it privately
without getting paid.  This should be obvious with a little thought about
the other person's situation.  Duh.

2 - Even those who aren't fluent in english can follow some basic rules.
There is no excuse for not starting sentences start with upper case letters
and ending them in periods (or suitable alternate punctuation if you know
enough english).  Doing otherwise is just lazy and basically says "Your time
and aggrevation in reading my message is of no consequence since I'm more
important than you are".  That's a really dumb thing to say to someone you
seek a favor from.  Duh.

There is a obvious difference between not knowing the language well and just
laziness.  Minor misspellings, wrong tense, and unusual word usage are signs
of not being fluent in english.  Those kind of things can be forgiven for
that reason.  Look carefully at this guy's message and you'll see that's not
what's going on.

3 - There are some situations where it's acceptable to use texting
abbreviations.  However, they are just rude outside those situations.  When
you don't know it's acceptable, don't use texting abbreviations.  Duh.

4 - The overall presentation is extremely sloppy.  This is bad for three
reasons:

4.1 - It says "I expect you to read my slop".  The corrolary is "I'm more
important than you are".  Duh.  Would you hand in a term paper or even a
homework assignment like that?  Of course not.  Now think of why that is.
How does that not apply to asking someone for a favor?

4.2 - It exhibits a general lack of care and attention to detail.  If this
guy doesn't care about his problem, why the heck should I?

4.3 - Sloppy people make bad engineers.  I have noticed that sloppiness is
invariably not limited to one aspect of a person.  If they write sloppily,
they do other stuff sloppily too.  Therefore, this person has shown himself
to be a waste of time in that helping him get past this one problem (if
that's even possible) will be pointless in the long run.  I'd rather spend
my *free* time where it can make a better difference.  If you don't like
that, you can have your money back any time.

5 - Even if we were to put all the above aside (and I certainly won't), the
question itself is poorly formed.  He apparently wants to measure the time
between two pulses and store this value somewhere.  There are several dumb
things about what he asked:

5.1 - It seems he wants to measure the time difference between two events,
but instead of asking about that directly has decided a timer needs to be
started and stopped.  Maybe that's a good approach in this case, but there
are certainly other possibilities.  When you're asking how to do something,
don't start out saying how you are going to do it.  Duh.  If you knew enough
to decide that, you wouldn't be asking.

5.2 - What exactly is his problem, capturing the pulses, capturing the time
of the pulses, or storing the resulting difference in "memory or EEPROM"?
This sort of question smells strongly of a homework assignment.

5.3 - Which is it, any old memory or EEPROM?  If you know what you really
want, how come you don't know whether the result needs to be saved
temporarily or non-volatile?  This would seem a fundamental choice dictated
by higher levels in the overall design.  How can he meaningfully be asking
about low level details when this choice is not already apparent?  Again,
this evokes the strong sent of a homework problem.

6 - The poorly asked question indicates poor thought processes, which
indicate many go-arounds will be necessary just to get to the real problems..
I don't feel like playing 20 questions for free.  No thanks.

> If it is because of the
> extensive use of abbreviations, that is extremely common if it is
> being sent from a cell phone. The younger generation that has grown
> up with this would not even understand your point as they would
> simply read it and not even be aware of the truncating.

I doubt this is what's going on, but if it is, they need to learn that lots
of people find that rude.

> however, maybe he is typing with a stick in his mouth.

Then don't do that.  Duh!

> You just never know.

And I don't care to.  I'm not the one asking for a favor.  My life is going
to go on just fine whether this ingrate gets his timer thingy working or
not.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\09\19@185141 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 6:35 PM, Olin Lathrop <spam_OUTolin_piclistTakeThisOuTspamembedinc.com> wrote:
> Robert Bullock wrote:
>> however, maybe he is typing with a stick in his mouth.
>
> Then don't do that.  Duh!
>

Olin,

I think Robert meant that perhaps he is a disabled person like Stephen
Hawking who needs special aids to type. There are some people who have
no use of their hands who type using a stick held in their mouth to
press keys on the keyboard. I doubt that this is the situation with
this fellow, but it's true that you don't know.

Sean

2010\09\19@185821 by Oli Glaser

flavicon
face
Wow... :-)

I'm thinking there should be a comic strip somewhere - "Super Olin - the Moron exterminator extraordinaire, upholds justice and the EE way" :-)
We are all just trying our best with what we have.
If somebody is typing with a stick in their mouth, maybe they have a good reason for it?
Tolerance... makes life much easier for everyone in general. Duh!


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Olin Lathrop" <.....olin_piclistKILLspamspam@spam@embedinc.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 11:35 PM
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclistspamKILLspammit.edu>
Subject: Re: [OT] If you still think there are no bad questions...

{Quote hidden}

> -

2010\09\19@191509 by ivp

face picon face
> can u plz help me here

..... is a reasonable question

The answer, like letters to Santa, is sometimes "No"

*
*
**********
Quality PIC programmers
http://www.embedinc.com/products/index.ht

2010\09\19@194558 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 12:15 AM, ivp <.....joecolquittKILLspamspam.....clear.net.nz> wrote:

> > can u plz help me here
>
> .... is a reasonable question
>
> The answer, like letters to Santa, is sometimes "No"
>

Or if you want to keep the style:

may b l8ter :-)

Tamas


>
> *
> *
> **********
> Quality PIC programmers
> http://www.embedinc.com/products/index.htm
>

2010\09\19@213756 by RussellMc

face picon face
> So I am always careful before labeling someone a MORON.

You shouldn't be - the definition is very easy to follow.
A Moron is any of

- A person that Olin Lathrop perceives to be less capable than him
and/or (a person who doesn't do things as he would and/or (as he
thinks they ought)).

or

- Olin Lathrop, if the person using the epithet is more capable than
Olin OR thinks that they are.


          R


PS: I'd be tempted to add "Most of the representatives of
organisations that I attempt to deal with by telephone when tghings go
wrong", but they would for certain be included in the first
definition, had OL ever encountered them

2010\09\19@215024 by RussellMc

face picon face
> Robert Bullock wrote:
>> What makes this such a bad question. That he is asking you

> Seriously!!?  ...

No.
I think you may have misread the first line in his message, as copied above..
It was potentially ambiguous. I read it as I think he intended, and I
think that you read it otherwise.

Disambiguating, I think he intended to convey the message.

>> "What makes this such a bad question is that he is asking *YOU*."

ie to anyone here who has any awareness of your styles, predilections,
peccadilloes, biases, et al, it would obviously unwise to do as he did
on any number of counts as the essence of your response is wholly
predictable, to us. Obviously not to the enquirer though. He seems to
have mistaken you for a normal friendly helpful highly skilled and
knowledgeable person, not realising that you are only a subset of
that. The "badness" of the question in this context is very much
multiplied by this mis-assumption.

>> however, maybe he is typing with a stick in his mouth.
> Then don't do that.  Duh!

That was, I think, meant not in the sense of "Mote in his eye" but
rather "handicapped in some manner not of his choice or contriving".



   Russell

2010\09\19@222718 by John Gardner

picon face
> The answer, like letters to Santa, is sometimes "No"

Or "Delete". You've previously enlightened the rest of us, I recall..

2010\09\19@223129 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 2:49 AM, RussellMc <EraseMEapptechnzspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:

> >> however, maybe he is typing with a stick in his mouth.
> > Then don't do that.  Duh!
>
> That was, I think, meant not in the sense of "Mote in his eye" but
> rather "handicapped in some manner not of his choice or contriving".
>

Maybe I missed something here but just wondering if someone is handicapped
using a stick to type and still can use iron and other more complex tools
for assembly a panel? I know my question sounds strange but really curious
now.

Tamas



>
>
>
>    Russell
>
>

2010\09\19@233505 by RussellMc

face picon face
> > >> however, maybe he is typing with a stick in his mouth.
> > > Then don't do that.  Duh!
> >
> > That was, I think, meant not in the sense of "Mote in his eye" but
> > rather "handicapped in some manner not of his choice or contriving".
> >
>
> Maybe I missed something here but just wondering if someone is handicapped
> using a stick to type and still can use iron and other more complex tools
> for assembly a panel? I know my question sounds strange but really curious
> now.

Very possibly yes.
I have seen* a, literally, one armed paper-hanger.
Some people seem to go out of their way to do complex things as much
because of rather than in spite of physical disabilities.

I know a blind man who, the  first time I met him, was sporting
various abrasions that happened when he cur down a tree with a
chainsaw and a branch caught him as the tree fell. (His daughter had
been acting as his "spotter" and he didn't ask enough questions re
hazards.) I didn't realise that he was blind for some while. He didn't
have the typical "blind gaze" and was wholly independently mobile
within areas he knew with no obvious 'aids' , and presumably quite
mobile in any circumstance. Not suprisingly, he was a vocational
training officer for the foundation for the blind :-).

BUT fwiw the original query did not involve soldering irons or other
tools. It was a programming question. viz.

> i wanna use a timer to start wen my transducer receive a pulse and stop
> when my anotehr transducer receiv pulse...then save value of timer in
> memory or eeprom.
> i dnt kne how to code this in c language

But, I doubt that this query came from someone who is blind - or even
handicapped in the normal sense. Probably just the product of a
generation other than that whose argot {}|1/\/  is and/or chooses to
be familiar.

I do know an IT manager who is wholly blind.
(Not just one eyed like many engineers :-).)



 R

* On video/film. Not in the flesh.

2010\09\19@234027 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 11:34 PM, RussellMc <apptechnzspamspam_OUTgmail.com> wrote:
> I do know an IT manager who is wholly blind.
> (Not just one eyed like many engineers :-).)
>

LASER WARNING: Do not look at laser with remaining eye

2010\09\20@025303 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 4:34 AM, RussellMc <@spam@apptechnzKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:

> I do know an IT manager who is wholly blind.
> (Not just one eyed like many engineers :-).)
>

Yeah, I had a colleague who was blind and was a software developer. Quite
good actually. But for that you do not need to recognise colour coded
components.

Anyway, the intention of my question was rather to see if this argument
or discussion(?) is theoretical or practical. But you are right, embedded or
firmware development makes sense by any kind of disability.

Thanks,
Tama

2010\09\20@030830 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
 On 20/09/2010 03:31, Tamas Rudnai wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 2:49 AM, RussellMc<KILLspamapptechnzKILLspamspamgmail.com>  wrote:
>
>>>> however, maybe he is typing with a stick in his mouth.
>>> Then don't do that.  Duh!
>> That was, I think, meant not in the sense of "Mote in his eye" but
>> rather "handicapped in some manner not of his choice or contriving".
>>
> Maybe I missed something here but just wondering if someone is handicapped
> using a stick to type and still can use iron and other more complex tools
> for assembly a panel? I know my question sounds strange but really curious
> now.
>
> Tamas
I know a blind guy that has a gadget that speaks colours and then solders the wires by feel with a solder gun.
He is totally blind, not just legally blind and has also mounted and aligned  dishes, aerials etc.

The choice of email by Olin was poor, because the poverty of the question was purely in presentation. The domain of the problem was understandable.

I think on voluntary support by email or forum/list you should be perpared for all types. The inappropriate (as decided by self) can be deleted or ignored or  banned (as decided by Moderators).

I personally find l33t spk, txting lol etc a bit juvenile and annoying. Personally I'd like a QWERTY on my phone. It's interesting that a lot of annoying modern contractions are similar to those in 19th century telegraph. Many people  with full use of hands are about as comfortable with a keyboard as it they could only peck with a stick.

I think primary schools should teach touch typing from age of 6.

2010\09\20@043154 by RussellMc

face picon face
> Anyway, the intention of my question was rather to see if this argument
> or discussion(?) is theoretical or practical. But you are right, embedded or
> firmware development makes sense by any kind of disability.

Yes. And it was software that the question related to.
He mentioned sensors but did not ask for any assistance with them.
But, I doubt that he was blind (except to Olin's rule set), so maybe
that moves it back towards theoretical :-).


2010\09\20@044805 by RussellMc

face picon face
>> I do know an IT manager who is wholly blind.
>> (Not just one eyed like many engineers :-).)

> LASER WARNING: Do not look at laser with remaining eye!

There are much worse things not to do than that.
MUCH worse

      http://public.fotki.com/RussellMc/misc-1/misc/do-not-stand-at.html

Do not try this any time around  sunrise or sunset.



                  Russell

No - not one of my photos

2010\09\20@050255 by Michael Rigby-Jones

flavicon
face


> -----Original Message-----
> From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu [spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesspamBeGonespammit.edu] On
Behalf
> Of Michael Watterson
> Sent: 20 September 2010 08:08
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: Re: [OT] If you still think there are no bad questions...
>
>
> The choice of email by Olin was poor, because the poverty of the
> question was purely in presentation. The domain of the problem was
> understandable.

The question gives a very broad overview of what the author was trying
to achieve, but other than this gave absolutely none of the information
that would be required to answer the question.  It's also written in the
classic 'txt' speak of the typical barely literate, knuckle dragger.
This was almost certainly not written by someone with a disability, they
tend to take more pride in their work IME.
How you can think this doesn't represent a bad question is beyond me;
it's a classic example.

Regards

Mike

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2010\09\20@062332 by RussellMc

face picon face
>> The choice of email by Olin was poor, because the poverty of the
>> question was purely in presentation. The domain of the problem was
>> understandable.

....

> How you can think this doesn't represent a bad question is beyond me;
> it's a classic example.

I think Michael might revisit his "purely" above on reflection.
But, to Olin the actual or perceived poverty of the presentation was a
major factor.
The problems with the considerably less than perfect question proper
were addressed as items 5&6 on Olin's list.
While many would agree in some degree with his  item's 1 to 4, the
importance placed on them and the reactions to them are substantially
different in Olin's case than would be the norm. As "the norm" (that's
most of we the people here) are all morons [tm], apparently, this is
OK :-).

I'd personally agree with Olin's items 2 to 4 to variable extents, but
would not get overly exercised by them as an opening gambit with a,
thus far, unknown interlocutor.
Item 1 (Translation: WHAT PART OF 'DONT EMAIL ME PRIVATELY' DON'T YOU
UNDERSTAND, MORON ?????) is an Olin special and it's up to him how he
chooses to hold court.

As an example to introduce the question which the original post
effectively was, I think it's, perhaps, a bad one :-).


2010\09\20@075756 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
You're being rather unfair.  I'm certainly not the only one that thinks
getting private email asking for free help for a topic that isn't narrowly
related to something I did is a bad idea.  Quoting from Eric Raymond's
"How to Ask Questions...":

 In general, questions to a well-selected public forum are more likely to
 get useful answers than equivalent questions to a private one. There are
 multiple reasons for this. One is simply the size of the pool of
 potential respondents. Another is the size of the audience; hackers
 would rather answer questions that educate many people than questions
 serving only a few.

 Understandably, skilled hackers and authors of popular software are
 already receiving more than their fair share of mis-targeted messages.
 By adding to the flood, you could in extreme cases even be the straw
 that breaks the camel's back - quite a few times, contributors to
 popular projects have withdrawn their support because collateral damage
 in the form of useless e-mail traffic to their personal accounts became
 unbearable.

Not all of that is relevant, but it should be clear this is a widely held
etiquette.  Also, why didn't this guy first go and look for public venues
to ask his question?  It wouldn't take long to find the PIClist, the
Microchip Forums, and other places.  No, he found my name somewhere and
took the easy way out without doing apparently any homework about where he
should ask.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\09\20@075857 by Dave Tweed

face
flavicon
face
RussellMc wrote:
> > LASER WARNING: Do not look at laser with remaining eye!
>
> There are much worse things not to do than that.
> MUCH worse
>
> public.fotki.com/RussellMc/misc-1/misc/do-not-stand-at.html
>
> Do not try this any time around  sunrise or sunset.

Cute, but not what it seems.

I recognize this instrument -- it's a research instrument (in France, IIRC)
that's aimed at a hillside a short distance away. Sunlight is directed into
it by an array of steerable flat mirrors on the hillside. As long as the
flat mirrors are locked into their "off" position, it's perfectly safe to
work at the focus.

-- Dave Twee

2010\09\20@090613 by Marechiare

picon face
> I'm certainly not the only one that thinks getting private email
> asking for free help for a topic that isn't narrowly related to
> something I did is a bad idea.

One can trace the leitmotif through the multiple posts, I don't know,
perhaps he's right, or just there is no right answer in general
whether the idea is good or bad.

"a widely held etiquette" interpretation depends on a person, his
"etiquette" background is:

> And I don't care to.  I'm not the one asking for a favor.
> My life is going to go on just fine whether this ingrate
> gets his timer thingy working or not.

That's completely ok position, nobody can blame him for it.

2010\09\20@093858 by jim

flavicon
face

OM,

I have done this very thing in assembly for a project I worked on a few
years ago, and it is pretty  straight forward.  I polled the pin the sensor was connected to and
when it changed, I started the timer.
When the next transition on that pin occured, I saved that timer value,
and started it again for a second
measurement.  You want to start and stop the timer and get the elapsed
time value, and save it.  This too
should be straight forward.  In my assembly routine, I calculated the
time it took my routine to process  the starting and stopping of the timer, and adjusted the timer value I
saved based on those numbers.   That gave me an exact elapsed time (within the LSB size of the timer
which in my case was 4 microseconds).  You should be able to do the same thing in C.  Although the calculation
of the latency may be more
difficult.  But you should be able to run the resulting program on the
simulator and use stopwatch to  calculate the time to process the starting and stopping of the timer.
This will give you an exact value to within the LSB of your timer
granularity.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Jim



>
> > i wanna use a timer to start wen my transducer receive a pulse and stop
> > when my anotehr transducer receiv pulse...then save value of timer in
> > memory or eeprom.
> > i dnt kne how to code this in c language
>

2010\09\20@101118 by RussellMc

face picon face
>> There are much worse things not to do than that.
>> MUCH worse

>> http://public.fotki.com/RussellMc/misc-1/misc/do-not-stand-at.html

>> Do not try this any time around  sunrise or sunset.

> Cute, but not what it seems.

> I recognize this instrument -- it's a research instrument (in France, IIRC)
> that's aimed at a hillside a short distance away. Sunlight is directed into
> it by an array of steerable flat mirrors on the hillside. As long as the
> flat mirrors are locked into their "off" position, it's perfectly safe to
> work at the focus.

No - in this case it is what it seems. But I agree that it is liable
to be safe (enough).
It's one of the 6 Stirling Energy Systems dishes that Sandia labs have
been running for many years - the predecessor to the Maracopa solar
'farm" with about 60 x 25 kWe Stirling of essentially the same design.

The same picture here in a Sandia page

      http://www.sandia.gov/LabNews/LN10-29-04/key10-29-04_stories.html#stirling

      http://www.sandia.gov/LabNews/LN10-29-04/key10-29-04_stories.html

I'd be about 101% sure that they were well aware of the dangers and
that the dish would be pointed somewhere very very very safe. That
said - I'd expect that at the focus it would be either colder or
hotter than local ambient, as the dish is probably pointing at
something different than where it is and this would be "reflected" at
the focus.

It is very possible to do very silly things with quite small dishes.
Some weeks ago I mentioned doing basic playing with a 600 mm satellite
dish with aluminised Mylar on it.
In my absence it had a very good attempt at burning my house down
through a series of deserendipitous events. Too good a story to not
tell in detail with photos at some future stage when I get to it.



     Russell

2010\09\20@105905 by Derward Myrick

picon face

----- Original Message ----- From: "Olin Lathrop" <TakeThisOuTolin_piclistEraseMEspamspam_OUTembedinc.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <RemoveMEpiclistspamTakeThisOuTMIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] If you still think there are no bad questions...


> You're being rather unfair.  I'm certainly not the only one that thinks
> getting private email asking for free help for a topic that isn't narrowly
> related to something I did is a bad idea.  Quoting from Eric Raymond's
> "How to Ask Questions...":
>
>  In general, questions to a well-selected public forum are more likely to
>  get useful answers than equivalent questions to a private one. There are
>  multiple reasons for this. One is simply the size of the pool of
<snip>

Olin,  In general I think you are too hard on most that ask questions of the group.
This is because you can just ignore it if you do not like it.  You joined this group
and if you do not like the group way of doing things then you may leave, this applies
to all of us.  Also you do not have to read or answer any question. HOWEVER,
In this case the question was sent directly to you and when that is done the person
should make every effort to make it easy for you.  And you have every right to
think of this person as you want.

Derward Myrick

2010\09\20@130954 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Dave Tweed wrote:
> I recognize this instrument -- it's a research instrument (in France,
> IIRC) that's aimed at a hillside a short distance away. Sunlight is
> directed into it by an array of steerable flat mirrors on the
> hillside. As long as the flat mirrors are locked into their "off"
> position, it's perfectly safe to work at the focus.

The one in France that I recall had a large permanent structure at the
focus.  This looks to me like one of the steerable dishes with Sterling
engines mounted on the focus that were being tested someplace in the
southwest US.  It might have been Sandia, or maybe a pilot plant in the
Mohave, not sure.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\09\20@131514 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
jim@jpes.com wrote:
> I have done this very thing in assembly <blah, blah, blah>

To those who often say you should just ignore stupid questions, this is one
reason it doesn't work.  There is always someone out there that tries to
answer it anyway, so the questioner gets a answer and the lesson isn't
learned.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\09\20@133509 by James Newton

face picon face
I'll not debate the quality of the question. Instead, I will comment on the
fact that it was copied here:

How wonderful for Olin that he has found another person to make fun of
publically. We all know how much he enjoys pointing out that others are
inferior, although I often wonder why... He has done so many really
brilliant things that it can't be a desire to make himself feel better at
the expense of others.
It must be something else... Laughing at the inability of others for no
other reason makes me sick to my stomach.

--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
{Original Message removed}

2010\09\20@134756 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> It must be something else... Laughing at the inability of others for no
> other reason makes me sick to my stomach.

Me too, but you seem to think that that is the case; I don't.

You might consider the possibility that he is simply annoyed by what he considers to be bad behavior, and tries to work against it.

--
Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2010\09\20@135507 by Steve Smith

flavicon
face
Oh come on boys this is a bit handbags at dawn lets all be a little more
tolerant live and let live .....

Steve...

{Original Message removed}

2010\09\20@140406 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
 On 20/09/2010 18:35, James Newton wrote:
> I'll not debate the quality of the question. Instead, I will comment on the
> fact that it was copied here:
>
> How wonderful for Olin that he has found another person to make fun of
> publically. We all know how much he enjoys pointing out that others are
> inferior, although I often wonder why... He has done so many really
> brilliant things that it can't be a desire to make himself feel better at
> the expense of others.
>
> It must be something else... Laughing at the inability of others for no
> other reason makes me sick to my stomach.
>

He has this Lesson he wants everyone to learn.

I quite freely admit that
"There are no bad questions, only bad answers"  is a somewhat "over the top aphorism"

But the main purpose of the list is to help people with technical know how (primarily PIC), not teach them how to set exam papers or use discussion lists to best advantage, though those may be laudable secondary aims.

But not to the point where it looks like abuse

2010\09\20@150054 by Oli Glaser

flavicon
face


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Wouter van Ooijen" <wouterEraseMEspam.....voti.nl>
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 6:47 PM
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <EraseMEpiclistspammit.edu>
Subject: Re: [OT] If you still think there are no bad questions...

>> It must be something else... Laughing at the inability of others for no
>> other reason makes me sick to my stomach.
>
> Me too, but you seem to think that that is the case; I don't.
>
> You might consider the possibility that he is simply annoyed by what he
> considers to be bad behavior, and tries to work against it.

If this is the case, fine - but it's quite possible to do it without publicly humiliating people or using terms like "Moron" and "Duh!"
If you want to point out someone's "bad behaviour", then surely it's good practice to "behave"  yourself whilst doing so?

2010\09\20@151719 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 8:00 PM, Oli Glaser <RemoveMEoli.glaserEraseMEspamEraseMEtalktalk.net> wrote:

> > You might consider the possibility that he is simply annoyed by what he
> > considers to be bad behavior, and tries to work against it.
>
> If this is the case, fine - but it's quite possible to do it without
> publicly humiliating people or using terms like "Moron" and "Duh!"
> If you want to point out someone's "bad behaviour", then surely it's good
> practice to "behave"  yourself whilst doing so?
>

That is actually a good point.

Tamas



>
>
>
>

2010\09\20@163928 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
>> You might consider the possibility that he is simply annoyed by what he
>> considers to be bad behavior, and tries to work against it.
>
> If this is the case, fine - but it's quite possible to do it without
> publicly humiliating people or using terms like "Moron" and "Duh!"

You seem to think that is possible and effective, Olin seems to think otherwise. I lean towards his opinion.

--
Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2010\09\20@165046 by Herbert Graf

picon face
On Mon, 2010-09-20 at 22:39 +0200, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> >> You might consider the possibility that he is simply annoyed by what he
> >> considers to be bad behavior, and tries to work against it.
> >
> > If this is the case, fine - but it's quite possible to do it without
> > publicly humiliating people or using terms like "Moron" and "Duh!"
>
> You seem to think that is possible and effective, Olin seems to think
> otherwise. I lean towards his opinion.

I personally don't understand this drive to "show the world" that one
person is better then another.

If you don't like the way someone talks, don't talk to them. To ridicule
them on a public forum without knowing the whole story is simply mean
spirited and often even cruel.

Why beat a person down simply because they are different?

The whole "if you have nothing nice to say don't say anything" idea is
very powerful.

And know, don't give me some BS justification like "they will never
learn if I don't speak like that". There are NICE ways of pointing out
your opinion that are FAR more effective, IF that is the true goal.

I just don't understand.

2010\09\20@171920 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
In my opinion it is not Olin's or any other member's job to ask people here
to make their question clear and educated. What I mean is that if a person
who makes 'lazy' questions or just ignores the answers should have been
warned by the moderator instead of anyone from us so the list could have
been effective and free from these kind of personal arguments.

In the other hand if that does not happen there is only one way to disagree:
Not to contribute. Only telling this because this very same argument
is going for years now and there is no movement to either way, so it is
getting a bit annoying to be honest.

Tamas




On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Herbert Graf <RemoveMEhkgrafspam_OUTspamKILLspamgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>

2010\09\20@194442 by V G

picon face
On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 5:58 PM, Michael Watterson <RemoveMEmikeTakeThisOuTspamspamradioway.org> wrote:
> I'm just glad I don't have a bicycle and that I didn't ask for advice
> how to lubricate it. Knowing very little about the subject, I'd be
> unsure now what the good answer is.

Are you referring to my thread

2010\09\20@225055 by RussellMc

face picon face
> On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 5:58 PM, Michael Watterson <EraseMEmikespamspamspamBeGoneradioway.org> wrote:
> > I'm just glad I don't have a bicycle and that I didn't ask for advice
> > how to lubricate it. Knowing very little about the subject, I'd be
> > unsure now what the good answer is.

> Are you referring to my thread?

No doubt he is - but note that it makes no comment on the merits of
that discussion as far as the question goes. He's saying (AFAICS) that
there are such disparate views on what constitutes a good answer that,
if you believe all of what has been said [tm], that it's not possible
to know if any answer is any use at all.

   Russel

2010\09\20@234727 by James Newton

face picon face
*smacks head*

Of course! By posting this here on the list, where the person who sent him
the email (who is not a subscriber) will not see the rebuke...
err... huh?

Sorry, I'm just too stupid to figure out what decent human motive could have
prompted a brilliant man like Olin to share this with all of us...

...but I have faith that there must be one.
--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
{Original Message removed}

2010\09\21@010539 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Sep 20, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Olin Lathrop wrote:

> To those who often say you should just ignore stupid questions, this  
> is one reason it doesn't work.  There is always someone out there  
> that tries to answer it anyway, so the questioner gets a answer and  
> the lesson isn't learned.

I believe the idea is that YOU, singular (Olin) should ignore  questions that are so stupid that you find them annoying.  (or any  other PARTICULAR person who feels likewise.)

There are (usually) other people who may be willing to gently guide  the clueless person through clarifying their question and even coming  up with an answer.  Maybe the questioner will learn something, maybe  they'll remain clueless.  You've made it clear that this sort of  education is not something you're good at, nor something you want to  be good at, nor something you want to do at all.  That's fine; not  everyone needs to do everything.  It's not worth the aggravation to  you, nor the belittlement of the questioner, for you to do anything  OTHER than ignore it; silence is probably just as educational in most  respects.  Sit back and wait for sufficiently well formulated  questions on hard topics, where your input is more valuable, more  appreciated, and more enjoyable for you!

I'm working on a hypothesis that says that a large percentage of  relatively clueless people are important to forming a "community."  If  you compare something like the Arduino forums to the TI E2E forums (or  even to AVRFreaks, which is a more direct comparison), the first is  (IMO) much more successful (as a "community.")  I think it has to do  with the near-beginners being able to answer questions for the real- beginners, so the non-beginners get less frustrated answering the same  question over and over again...

BillW

2010\09\21@021745 by Ruben Jönsson

flavicon
face
{Quote hidden}

This thread is about stupid questions which Olin is showing an example of. He is not actually replying to it (if I have not missunderstood it completely)..

So that's just what he is doing - not talking to them.

He has also stripped the example of any information that points to an actual person just not to ridicule him/her.


/Ruben


==============================
Ruben Jönsson
AB Liros Electronic
Box 9124, 200 39 Malmö, Sweden
TEL INT +46 40142078
FAX INT +46 40947388
RemoveMErubenKILLspamspampp.sbbs.se
==============================

2010\09\21@022032 by RussellMc

face picon face
> Sorry, I'm just too stupid to figure out what decent human motive could have
> prompted a brilliant man like Olin to share this with all of us...
>
> ..but I have faith that there must be one.

I don't know if you've read this thread from the start, and the one
before it which this is essentially a continuation of, but, even I can
manage a bit of figuring on this.

The 'problem' is not Olin's stated aim (and his actual aim may or may
not correlate well with this, but that's something I can't tell) but
his stated and practiced method. If he could divorce the latter two
and retain the former 'The world would be a brighter place' [tm].

The "decent human motive" may be stated as "That all may do things
decently and in order so that all may be edified thereby" or "That
people present things (questions, ideas, code, projects, self ... ) in
a logical and ordered manner in order that they may achieve optimum
results and be able to convey the benefits of these  results to others
and in return receive due benefits from the similarly ordered efforts
of others".

The (or a) flaw is that there is a fly in the ointment. The decent
human motives (regardless of their merit or not or attendance to
realism) have an added clause and an assumption and a conclusion.
The clause is " ... or leave."
The assumption is " most people are morons and incapable of this ideal
so should leave, preferably sooner, even better now.".
The conclusion is "It's my holy duty to make sure all this happens asasap".

Alas, a house divided against itself cannot stand :-(.
And a little leaven, apparently, leavens the whole lump.
ie if you see the world through moron coloured glasses people are
either morons or not - you can't get half a moron - that would be an
oxymoron (not really).

And, Olin is very good at some things and not quite so good at others.
Some, even here, are superior in ability or discernment or
perspicacity or erudition or whatever in some areas, than is Olin. So
then, Olin too is a moron, by his own definition, due to his
deficiency wrt these masters,, as are we all. (Maybe Scott's not a
moron, I don't know - I've never seen him put a foot wrong so far-  at
least technically :-) ).
So we are all in this together, the moron leading the moron and all
falling into the ditch, as it were. Olin is in it with the rest of us
so we thrash about, leaving the problem unresolved.

Our only hope of salvation, in this rather narrow context at least, is
for Olin to turn off his moron ray, climb down off his high horse,
divorce his decent human aim from his stated aim and practice and set
forth to educate the miscreants with a new assumption and conclusion.

This is unlikely to happen overnight (and extremely likely not to
happen at all).

To start gently, how about:

The assumption is " most people are less than perfect but may be
capable of approaching this ideal with a bit of firm by loving
encouragement, so hopefully most will take the path to learning and
few will leave.

The conclusion is "It's my holy duty to educate people so well that
they find it a wholly enjoyable experience and often don't even
realise that they've been though boot camp PIC processors 101 and
passed with flying colours."

However, achieving that would require a REAL expert. I don't know if
Olin's up to it.


        Russel

2010\09\21@025211 by Oli Glaser

flavicon
face


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Ruben Jönsson" <rubenSTOPspamspamspam_OUTpp.sbbs.se>
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 7:17 AM
{Quote hidden}

The reason he gave for stripping the address etc, was to quote:
"I don't care if his address gets plastered across
the net, but I don't want any wannabes here actually answering this loser"

To me, that is not showing the consideration you are proposing was present.

In any case I think most people have a problem with the general attitude involved - whether we know who it is or not, describing folk as morons, losers, ingrates etc, does not seem likely to promote a pleasant atmosphere on the list.

2010\09\21@032542 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
 On 21/09/2010 06:05, William "Chops" Westfield wrote:
{Quote hidden}

You may have a few good points there.
I'm reminded of the saying to Seekers:
"If you find the perfect Church, don't join it".
Successful, dynamic growing on-line communities are always going to have what seems like a lot of idiots. The real idiots or trolls, with time get banned or go away. Other "idiots" turn out to be really great folk that help the community grow.

2010\09\21@064933 by Marechiare

picon face
> We all know how much he enjoys pointing out that others
> are inferior, ..

even when his code fails to compile, the compiler apologises :-

2010\09\21@073220 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
'William Chops" Westfield ' <spamBeGonewestfwSTOPspamspamEraseMEmac.com wrote:
> There are (usually) other people who may be willing to gently guide
> the clueless person through clarifying their question and even coming
> up with an answer.

That's exactly my point.  He gets the answer despite the arrogant or rude
post.  The only way to really get the point accross is for the arrogance and
rudeness to not be successful.  "Bad dog, have a doggy treat."

> It's not worth the aggravation to
> you, nor the belittlement of the questioner,

The belittlement of the questioner is of no concern.  If he feels properly
humiliated, he probably won't do it again and problem solved.  If he runs
away crying to mommy and never comes back, problem still solved.  If you
give him what he wants, he'll be back doing the same thing again since it
was successful.

> I'm working on a hypothesis that says that a large percentage of
> relatively clueless people are important to forming a "community."

That's nuts.  You need some fraction of newbies asking good questions, but
the clueless ones being arrogant or rude when asking for a favor serve only
to degrade the forum.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\09\21@090203 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Olin,

You DO realize that we are talking about (mostly) adults here, right?
Why do you think it is OK for you to treat other adults as subjects
whom you must train like a dog?

Sean


On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 7:32 AM, Olin Lathrop <KILLspamolin_piclistspamBeGonespamembedinc.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\09\21@092109 by RussellMc

face picon face
Hat: Speaking-hat of an  individual list member.
Listening hat as a list admin listening to what YOU the people respond
to my statements and questions.
Hopefully some firm(er) policy will come out of this.
I'll be extremely disappointed in the membership if it isn't along the
lines suggested below.
But, to a reasonable extent, that's your choice.

Olin,

Thank you for making your position so clear.
This is a restatement of what you have said explicitly before, but
it's good that you put it so clearly here:

What you repeatedly seek to deny is the fact that you are not, of
course, the only person who thinks that people should NOT be spoon
fed, or who thinks that people should think for themselves and do
their homework, or who thinks that people should learn and grow and
become able to do things for themselves that they started off not
being able to do.

It seems likely that the very large majority of people here think just
as you do on this.
The concepts are not new or unique or overly special. Just useful.

BUT you are the only person here* who thinks the correct way to
educate is to grab people;e by the hair, slam their face into a wall,
kick them in delicate places and then (or simultaneously)(takes skill)
stomp on their head. And then laugh and jeer at them and maybe help
them bleed a bit more. Maybe  this would produce people who think like
you do and act like you do. But not here. Such behaviour is, if I
understand the mind of we the people here correctly, totally against
the desires and intentions of the large majority of people on this
list.  (* some others manage the occasional kick or slap but nobody
else seeks to make it an art form).

Statements such as .

> The belittlement of the questioner is of no concern.  If he feels properly
> humiliated, he probably won't do it again and problem solved.  If he runs
> away crying to mommy and never comes back, problem still solved.  If you
> give him what he wants, he'll be back doing the same thing again since it
> was successful.

are not only unacceptable as behavior on this list. They are
unacceptable  as suggestions as to how people may wish to behave on
this list.

I believe that the very large majority of people here will agree with this.
But (as Carl Sagan was wont to say) "I may be wrong".

            **** HAVE YOUR SAY ****

If people really think that

1. > The belittlement of the questioner is of no concern.

2.  > If he feels properly humiliated, he probably won't do it again
and problem solved.

3.  > If he runs  away crying to mommy and never comes back, problem
still solved.

are acceptable statements of how things should be done here, are
approaches that we can be proud of, and that would pass muster with
MIT if anyone complained about them, then do please speak up now. Or
disagree with their acceptability.

DO NOT WATER THEM DOWN - they are clear statements - address them.

THIS following point is liable to be acceptable enough to most

4.  > If you give him what he wants, he'll be back doing the same
thing again since it
    > was successful.

Fortunately, "giving him what he wants"  in an unqualified manner is
NOT how most people here behave towards beginners - or to people whose
mother tongue is not English.

Even when people provide a degree of assistance to the relatively
clueless, they also provide education, direction and suggested ways of
improving. Most people thus advised do learn, some more slowly than
others. I keep wondering as I write this if invoking Godwin is liable
to be wise or useful. I wrote several lines mentioning MK &  Dr G and
friends, but decided to expunge them. Suffice it to say that I think
Godwin's men would be comfortable with the concept of unremitting
violence as a menas of "education".

Violence is not our aim here.
Belittling questioners IS of concern and is unacceptable.
Purposeful humiliation as a means of education is unacceptable here.
Seeking to drive people away from the list, or being satisfied that it
is a good outcome if it occurs is not how we seek to do things here.

How say you, gentlemen?




                     Russell McMahon

2010\09\21@094158 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> DO NOT WATER THEM DOWN - they are clear statements - address them.

I think I already did.

--
Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2010\09\21@095440 by rolf

flavicon
face

I feel my position has been clear for years now.

Having been on the receiving end of Olin's brusqueness I can only say that
Olin makes this 'community' unwelcoming.

Further, I have stated in the past, and I still feel that the community's
previous 'vote for Olin' Success reflects poorly on the 'community' too.

For the past couple of years (Since Olin has been 'un-moderated') the
acceptance, and promotion of Olin's 'pillage and burn newbies' policy has
indicated that this is an 'elite' forum of 'experts'. As a 'newbie' I have
felt unwelcome, and that it is 'impossible' to ask newbie questions without
being shot down. As a technical resource, PICList is valuable, but
inaccessible.

As an individual I believe Olin has set the tone of piclist, and enforced
this 'strategy' of belittlement. As a community I think it is embarrassing
and shameful that it has gone on for so long. Shame on *us* for
supporting/accepting the bullying of unsuspecting 'visitors'.

The direct effect of Olin's strategies has been to deplete this community
of fresh blood, and to distance those people who have the staunchest
principles and ethics... in effect, Olin has somehow managed to subvert the
character of the list, and we've let him do it.

Rolf

On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 01:20:38 +1200, RussellMc <@spam@apptechnz@spam@spamspam_OUTgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>

2010\09\21@102015 by RussellMc

face picon face
> > DO NOT WATER THEM DOWN - they are clear statements - address them.
>
> I think I already did.

Already did what? - watered them down or addressed them? :-)

Interestingly, I only recall you ever being polite and helpful. I
certainly have no recollection of you being bullying or attempting to
humiliate or to drive people off the list or expressing satisfaction
when people are driven from the list. Maybe having an Olin in the
cupboard to do such dirty work makes it unnecessary to participate,
but you also seem more straightforward than that - so I'd have to
guess that you were generally a "nicer" person than you seem to be
suggesting :-).

I'd presume that even in your classroom discipline sessions you aim at
something a bit less than purposeful maximum-humiliation, that you
don't seek to actively drive people off your courses, and that you
don't consider it a sign of success to have done so? No?



              Russel

2010\09\21@102740 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
 On 21/09/2010 14:20, RussellMc wrote:
>
> Violence is not our aim here.
> Belittling questioners IS of concern and is unacceptable.
> Purposeful humiliation as a means of education is unacceptable here.
> Seeking to drive people away from the list, or being satisfied that it
> is a good outcome if it occurs is not how we seek to do things here.
>
> How say you, gentlemen?
>
>
>
>
>                        Russell McMahon
>
I've suggested before that educating people to ask sensibly is a reasonable secondary function of the list and would agree with Olin on that score.
I'd 100% disagree with his concept of how that should be achieved.
When I first joined the list I *very* briefly thought he was one of moderators and wondered did I want to cancel my subscription.
On technical issues I'd agree with most of what he says, and where I don't I'm maybe wrong. I'd rarely agree with how he says it.

I'm not qualified to "throw stones" or "take motes out of other's eyes", but you did ask

2010\09\21@103056 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
 On 21/09/2010 15:19, RussellMc wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Perhaps there is a confusion between goals and methods

2010\09\21@105035 by Marechiare

picon face
> Violence is not our aim here.
> Belittling questioners IS of concern and is unacceptable.
> Purposeful humiliation as a means of education is unacceptable here.
> Seeking to drive people away from the list, or being satisfied that it
> is a good outcome if it occurs is not how we seek to do things here.
>
> How say you, gentlemen?

Take a wild guess, Moderator :-

2010\09\21@112200 by RussellMc

face picon face
Watering down seems to be the order of the day about 100% of the time so far.
Points addressed are stated very black & white by OP.

>> How say you, gentlemen?

> Take a wild guess, Moderator :-)


Watery?


2010\09\21@115052 by alan.b.pearce

face picon face
> > Maybe I missed something here but just wondering if someone is
handicapped
> > using a stick to type and still can use iron and other more complex
tools
> > for assembly a panel? I know my question sounds strange but really
curious
> > now.
>
> Very possibly yes.
> I have seen* a, literally, one armed paper-hanger.
> Some people seem to go out of their way to do complex things as much
> because of rather than in spite of physical disabilities.

I met a one-armed guy who worked as a woodsman, at a saw mill. He
entered wood chopping competitions and could compete with the best
axe-men. He was also the one who got called on to repair wire ropes when
they broke as he could do the neatest splice of anyone at the mill.
-- Scanned by iCritical.

2010\09\21@130544 by Oli Glaser

flavicon
face


--------------------------------------------------
From: "RussellMc" <spamBeGoneapptechnzspamKILLspamgmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 2:20 PM
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <.....piclistspam_OUTspammit.edu>
Subject: Re: [OT] If you still think there are no bad questions...

> Violence is not our aim here.
> Belittling questioners IS of concern and is unacceptable.
> Purposeful humiliation as a means of education is unacceptable here.
> Seeking to drive people away from the list, or being satisfied that it
> is a good outcome if it occurs is not how we seek to do things here.

> How say you, gentlemen?

Just to confirm, I completely agree with your post on all accounts.

I think it would be nice to keep the list as welcoming and tolerant of beginners as possible.
I would not want to be a member of a selective elite community that actively goes about removing it's less capable members.

It's *very* easy to forget how you felt as a clueless newbie, and it's usually a humbling enough experience to ask "beginner" questions anyway without random humiliation and beatings thrown in for good measure.
I can never see the need to be anything other than polite in 99.99999% (arguably 100%) of cases.
As Sean pointed out, we are not talking of Pavlov and his dogs here.

2010\09\21@133807 by Herbert Graf

picon face

On Tue, 2010-09-21 at 08:17 +0200, Ruben Jönsson wrote:
{Quote hidden}

No, this thread WAS about stupid questions. It BECAME about a "stupid
moron" who posted a "stupid question".

> So that's just what he is doing - not talking to them.

Much worse, he's not just not taking TO them, he's talking ill ABOUT
them, behind their back, in public.

> He has also stripped the example of any information that points to an actual
> person just not to ridicule him/her.

Olin himself stated the reason for striping out identifying details was
NOT to avoid identifying the OP, but to restrict anyone here from
answering the question, the motivation is clear.

Ignoring that point, consider this possibility: this person will likely
stumble on the PICLIST, possibly soon considering their interest in
PICs.

A quick look through the archives will produce this thread, where people
have openly and harshly ridiculed (or at the very least, SUPPORTED the
ridicule of) the person who wrote that question, not the question, but
the person.

Now, a completely made up but in my opinion plausible hypothetical: what
if this person is a 10 year old kid interested in PICs? How might they
FEEL by how this forum has treated them (true, not directly to their
face, but directly enough)? Is is conceivable that this 10 year old kid
might be really hurt, and likely dissuaded from asking for help here?

People LOVE jumping on people they feel are "lower" then themselves. I
find this disgusting and revolting, and to be frank, I'm ashamed by some
of the posts in this (and related) threads. We are adults, how about we
act like adults?

Hang your heads in shame people.

2010\09\21@134907 by Derward Myrick

picon face

----- Original Message ----- From: "Oli Glaser" <TakeThisOuToli.glaser.....spamTakeThisOuTtalktalk.net>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <TakeThisOuTpiclistKILLspamspamspammit.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] If you still think there are no bad questions...




<snip>

When people think others are dumb I would like to tell about a fellow back in the 60s.

When you worked for Western Electric you had to screw up real bad to get fired.
They hired one engineer that did not have the ability to do any job they gave him.
After being assigned to several departments it was decided that they would give him
one last chance.  He was assigned to the waveguide manufacturing department..
As soon as he settled in he began to improve every thing they were doing.
The last I heard he had some 30 + patents and some 20 +  pending.
He was so brilliant that they gave him his on area to work in with no one to bother him
and he had an unlimited budget to develop what he wanted.  I worked with Bell
Labs some and very few people ever got With them what he got with Western
Electric.  He made them millions of dollars over many years but if Olin had been
his boss he would have been labeled  an idiot and fired.  We can never tell
what a person is like in the first few meetings.

Derward Myricl  PE   KD5WWI













2010\09\21@135152 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Interestingly, I only recall you ever being polite and helpful.

Thank you, but I have been gritting my teeth on numerous occasions when someone asked a question and expected each of the answerers to spend much more time in answering than he did in asking (and got away with it!!). In nearly all cases the asker got 'Olinized' before I could answer. My tone would probably have been somewhat milder than Olin's, but the basic attitude would be the same: if you expect help, then I am entitled to expect some basic work from your side. If not, I am entitled to say so.

Maybe I am a bit less eager to respond to such questions because I get them on a daily basis (and I am payed to answer them - if I see fit even in a 'rude' way).

> I'd presume that even in your classroom discipline sessions you aim at
> something a bit less than purposeful maximum-humiliation

I think everyone agrees that 'optimal humiliation' is the goal. But our   estimates of that optimum seem to differ widely.

> don't seek to actively drive people off your courses, and that you
> don't consider it a sign of success to have done so? No?

That's a long story. We (the teachers) are expected (by our superiors) to reach a 80% (first year) or 85% (next years) 'pass' on each course. If not, we must 'improve' our lessons. As a consequence very few teachers dare to give low marks to the students who deserve them. But those teachers do the other teachers (and the other students) a big favor, because they help to eliminate the students who should not be in our school. I try to be hard on the students when needed, and use some creative bookkeeping to keep the management happy. There is some parallel with the list's situation.

--
Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2010\09\21@145528 by Oli Glaser

flavicon
face


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Wouter van Ooijen" <.....wouterspamRemoveMEvoti.nl>
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 6:51 PM
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <RemoveMEpiclistspamspamBeGonemit.edu>
Subject: Re: [OT] If you still think there are no bad questions...

> I think everyone agrees that 'optimal humiliation' is the goal. But our
>  estimates of that optimum seem to differ widely.

How about 'no humiliation'?

2010\09\21@163357 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> How about 'no humiliation'?

That could be your figure for the optimum. But it is not mine.

--
Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2010\09\21@180911 by sergio masci

flavicon
face


On Tue, 21 Sep 2010, Herbert Graf wrote:

{Quote hidden}

The situation is infinately worse than you've actually outlined here. The subject of this ridicule doesn't even need to join the MIT PICLIST to have his nose rubbed in this. A friend could simply be doing a google search on him and hey presto instant loss of respect. Or how about a potential employer or college recuiter doing research years down the line.

If the subject has a wealthy relative behind him, I can even forsee the possibility for a law suit.

You know there is a reason why people try to behave civilised. It's not just about protecting someone else's feelings it's also about self preservation.

> People LOVE jumping on people they feel are "lower" then themselves. I
> find this disgusting and revolting, and to be frank, I'm ashamed by some
> of the posts in this (and related) threads. We are adults, how about we
> act like adults?
>
> Hang your heads in shame people.

Yes, then there is this moral issue which I completely agree with.

Regards
Sergio Masci

2010\09\21@183322 by sergio masci

flavicon
face


On Tue, 21 Sep 2010, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Wouter, I've watched your interactions with other people and I have had dealings with you myself and I'm sorry to say this but you do seem to be a nice guy on the whole (sorry for the insult :-)

I can understand how constantly dealing with someone who doesn't actually want to learn (maybe he's lazy or he is taking a course that he was pushed into or he thought the course would actually be something other than it actually is) would wear you down (even a saint probably). But the fact is you don't just kick that guy the first time he opens his mouth and says the wrong thing just because you have experience of other a*holes. You give him the benefit of the doubt the first time. Maybe even the second and third time while you try to assess whether there is a misunderstanding between what you've said and what he has asked or produced in response to what you have said. This seems to be the normal way things are done by normal people. I would certainly not jump down 'jacks' throat because he has produced a question which was coincidently produced by 'john' in isolation in another class in another town some time ago.

Yes you might want to slightly humiliate someone as a form of punishment because he has persistantly been late handing in his homework or because he is constantly talking in class when you tell him to stop. But seriously do you try to humiliate someone if you can see they are trying but just not getting 'it'. I don't think you do, I think you're the kind of guy that tries to understand where you are failing to connect and tries to put things in a different way.

Regards
Sergio Masc

2010\09\21@191355 by Vitaliy

face
flavicon
face
RussellMc wrote:
=====
Violence is not our aim here.
Belittling questioners IS of concern and is unacceptable.
Purposeful humiliation as a means of education is unacceptable here.
Seeking to drive people away from the list, or being satisfied that it
is a good outcome if it occurs is not how we seek to do things here.

How say you, gentlemen?
=====

In the Soviet Union, there was an institutionalized practice of public shaming ("community pressure", they called it). If you had some character flaw, say you were a drunkard or a hooligan or you didn't want to volunteer to harvest potatos for the benefit of the state, you would be brought in front of a community meeting where your neighbors would take turns to try to guilt you into changing your behavior. This took place everywhere, from elementary schools to factories. If you misbehaved in some way, you could also expect to see your face on a poster titled "Shame on Russell McMahon!" followed by a short paragraph describing your misconduct. The practice enjoyed limited success, but there were always those stubborn people who continued to be alcoholics, hooligans, and materialists.

Many people agree that Olin can be a jerk sometimes. Most people agree that being a jerk is not an acceptable form of behavior. Everyone knows that Olin will never change his views or his behavior in response to community pressure. Yet time and time again we attempt the same thing, expecting a different result.

There are only two solutions that will work, without turning the PICList into a police state.

1. "Sticks and stones may break my bones (but words will never hurt me)." Let Olin be a jerk, and let Rolf explain to the victim that Olin is being a jerk. Let the victim tell Olin that he's a jerk. If you don't like Olin, set up a mail filter. Don't like a thread, don't read it.

2. Simple & well defined rules, with consistent and transparent enforcement.. If someone breaks a rule, ban them for a time, and make the fact public.

Back to work...

Vitaliy

2010\09\21@193434 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
 On 22/09/2010 00:13, Vitaliy wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Only two?
RussellMc seems an unusually inventive chap. I bet he can think of others.

2010\09\21@200309 by Jake Anderson

flavicon
face
On 22/09/10 09:13, Vitaliy wrote:
{Quote hidden}

He is a troll.
Unfortunately he also knows alot about the subject and is really good at walking the line of being useful enough that the population at large feels conflicted about the amount of work to keep him out if they so chose.

2010\09\21@204955 by Gaston Gagnon

face
flavicon
face
 On 2010-09-21 20:03, Jake Anderson wrote:
>
> bans don't work olin just signs up under a pseudonym.
Hey! I see nothing wrong with Olin coming back under a pseudonym and
acting so civilized that nobody recognizes him :-)
Gaston

2010\09\21@210208 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
I've never seen Olin post under any other name than his own.

Sean


On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Jake Anderson <spamBeGonejake@spam@spamspam_OUTvapourforge.com> wrote:
> bans don't work olin just signs up under a pseudonym.
> He is a troll.
> Unfortunately he also knows alot about the subject and is really good at
> walking the line of being useful enough that the population at large
> feels conflicted about the amount of work to keep him out if they so chose.
>
>
>

2010\09\21@211031 by Rolf

flavicon
face
On 10-09-21 07:13 PM, Vitaliy wrote:
> There are only two solutions that will work, without turning the PICList
> into a police state.
>
> 1. "Sticks and stones may break my bones (but words will never hurt me)."
> Let Olin be a jerk, and let Rolf explain to the victim that Olin is being a
> jerk. Let the victim tell Olin that he's a jerk. If you don't like Olin, set
> up a mail filter. Don't like a thread, don't read it.
>
> 2. Simple&  well defined rules, with consistent and transparent enforcement.
> If someone breaks a rule, ban them for a time, and make the fact public.
>
> Back to work...
>
> Vitaliy
>
>    
There is a third alternative, we can put up a 'Use at your own risk' warning for all people who sign up.... something along the lines of: "This is a forum of 2000+ people. If at any point one of those users feels your contributions are not of suitable quality, or that your questions are stupid, ill-considered, poorly punctuated, misspelled, or otherwise deficient, you are likely to be called names, shamed, and generally abused. This happens regularly. use at own risk."

At least that way people will know what to expect. Maybe this should be tacked on as the default signature of the mailman.

It would also be a realistic, honest representation of what this list is all (can be) about.

Rolf

2010\09\21@213319 by Gaston Gagnon

face
flavicon
face
 On 2010-09-21 21:02, Sean Breheny wrote:
> I've never seen Olin post under any other name than his own.
>
That may prove my point :-)
Gaston

2010\09\22@095028 by BOB

picon face
The jerks of this world only get worse if they are given an audience. By not removing them from the list management is saying his behavior is acceptable on the list.

I know a number of people that have checked out the list and left it because of non PIC things that allowed.

I filter all emails from Olin to the trash.  But I still have to hand filter the other stuff from other responces.

I guess the the next step is a filter that send it to the trash if the word Olin appears any where in the message.

This is supposed to be the best place to learn about PICs but at times it is like a bunch of kids arguing or an old ladies gossip party.

Bo

2010\09\22@151754 by Vitaliy

face
flavicon
face
BOB wrote:
> The jerks of this world only get worse if they are given an audience. By
> not removing them from the list management is saying his behavior is
> acceptable on the list.

It's not just the "management". A few years back his fellow members voted 2:1 to maintain the status quo.


> I know a number of people that have checked out the list and left it
> because of non PIC things that allowed.

I would leave if only PIC things were allowed. Microchip forum is where I'd go if I only had questions about PICs.


> I filter all emails from Olin to the trash.  But I still have to hand
> filter the other stuff from other responces.
>
> I guess the the next step is a filter that send it to the trash if the
> word Olin appears any where in the message.

What worked for me is growing thicker skin. I just don't get worked up about it.


> This is supposed to be the best place to learn about PICs but at times
> it is like a bunch of kids arguing or an old ladies gossip party.

How hard is it to ignore threads you have no interest in? Nowadays I read maybe 1% of the posts, I just disciplined myself to only read the threads that are useful/interesting to me.

Vitaliy

2010\09\22@175312 by James Nick Sears

flavicon
face
On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 12:16 PM, Vitaliy <TakeThisOuTpiclistspamspammaksimov.org> wrote:
> BOB wrote:
>> I filter all emails from Olin to the trash.  But I still have to hand
>> filter the other stuff from other responces.
>>
>> I guess the the next step is a filter that send it to the trash if the
>> word Olin appears any where in the message.
>
> What worked for me is growing thicker skin. I just don't get worked up about
> it.

I've been doing mostly software work lately, so really the ONLY thing
I read on the list is Olin berating people.  I think his attitude is
absolutely counterproductive, and I wonder how many hours a day he
wastes "teaching" people not to ask "stupid" questions, but I can't
help it.  I've totally grown to love it for sheer entertainment value.
He's like a one man Jersey Shore cast, but way nerdier.

2010\09\22@175837 by David Meiklejohn

face
flavicon
face
BOB wrote:
>
> I filter all emails from Olin to the trash.

Goes to show that we're all different - Olin's posts are the first I read!
They're generally informative, insightful, well-written, and I sometimes
learn something.


David Meiklejohn
http://www.gooligum.com.au

2010\09\23@004324 by RussellMc

face picon face
> It's not just the "management". A few years back his fellow members voted
> 2:1 to maintain the status quo.

That's actually highly untrue - but I'm not blaming anyone for
thinking it is true. I observed what was and wasn't done at the time
and what questions were put and why. For various reasons I have
slightly more insight into what happened overall.

If anyone is interested and wants to authoritatively quote chapter and
verse they would need to at least review all the related material. I
don't imagine that there is in fact much point in rehashing what did
or didn't happen then as opposed to doing whatever seems appropriate
now - but if interested in referring to past events it may be useful
to be aware of the above comments.

If anyone is REALLY interested and is willing to sign an NDA in the
blood of their firstborn I MAY be willing to comment offlist. But,
maybe not, and it's not worth asking move along nothing to see here
these are not the ones you want.


          Russel

2010\09\23@014233 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> I've been doing mostly software work lately, so really the ONLY thing
> I read on the list is Olin berating people.
(switching to a modestly rude mode)

So all Olin does is berating people????

And where are all the friendly and helpful answers from you and your fellow Olin bashers to (for instance) the "Device ID question" thread??

--
Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2010\09\23@020055 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 10:58 PM, David Meiklejohn <davidEraseMEspamgooligum.com.au>wrote:

> BOB wrote:
> >
> > I filter all emails from Olin to the trash.
>
> Goes to show that we're all different - Olin's posts are the first I read!
> They're generally informative, insightful, well-written, and I sometimes
> learn something.
>

Same here... There are quite a few people here I read their post with more
attention and Olin is is definitely in this top list. What bothers me is
that we are ending up in such conversations all the time as this one.

Tamas



>
>
> David Meiklejohn
> http://www.gooligum.com.au
>
>
>
>

2010\09\23@021305 by Oli Glaser

flavicon
face


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Wouter van Ooijen" <RemoveMEwouterEraseMEspamspam_OUTvoti.nl>
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:42 AM
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <@spam@piclistRemoveMEspamEraseMEmit.edu>
Subject: Re: [OT] If you still think there are no bad questions...

>> I've been doing mostly software work lately, so really the ONLY thing
>> I read on the list is Olin berating people.
>
> (switching to a modestly rude mode)
>
> So all Olin does is berating people????

I think he meant those posts (the substantial number where he does berate someone) are all he chooses to read, for their entertainment value..

> And where are all the friendly and helpful answers from you and your
> fellow Olin bashers to (for instance) the "Device ID question" thread??

What has that to do with anything??
Are you inferring that as long as you are helpful in some posts you can be as rude as you like in others?
No one is taking anything away from the helpful side of Olin that provides great knowledge to many, but calling people Morons etc etc etc is different - I believe Olin would be the first to say that if someone gets something wrong then they should get called on it.

2010\09\23@024849 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
>>And where are all the friendly and helpful answers from you and your
>> fellow Olin bashers to (for instance) the "Device ID question" thread??

> What has that to do with anything??

valid response to the "*all* Olin does is ..."

--
Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2010\09\23@032403 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
 On 23/09/2010 06:42, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
>> I've been doing mostly software work lately, so really the ONLY thing
>> I read on the list is Olin berating people.
> (switching to a modestly rude mode)
>
> So all Olin does is berating people????
>
> And where are all the friendly and helpful answers from you and your
> fellow Olin bashers to (for instance) the "Device ID question" thread??
>
Of course Olin gives lots of expert, clear, concise and useful answers. Often the best answers.

That's why there is a dilemma for some people

2010\09\23@043807 by Per Linne

flavicon
face

----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Watterson" <EraseMEmikespam@spam@radioway.org>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <@spam@piclistspam_OUTspam.....mit.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] If you still think there are no bad questions...


{Quote hidden}

Yes, he is definitely one of the most generous and professional contributors to the list.
Give him something similar to diplomatic immunity. If necessary somehow include a
warning to newcomers to behave.

PerL

2010\09\23@045932 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 7:12 AM, Oli Glaser <spamBeGoneoli.glaserEraseMEspamtalktalk.net> wrote:

> No one is taking anything away from the helpful side of Olin that provides
> great knowledge to many, but calling people Morons etc etc etc is
> different - I believe Olin would be the first to say that if someone gets
> something wrong then they should get called on it.
>

Yes, but he wrote 1 (one) message like this in this thread and now there are
more than 80 discussing about that one thing. Does it really worth? I would
rather concentrate on numerous of his other contributions than on this...

We really should just click on delete when no engineering but moron-ing
inside instead of analysing that all over again and again.

Tamas




>
>
>
>

2010\09\23@060332 by Oli Glaser

flavicon
face


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Tamas Rudnai" <tamas.rudnaispamBeGonespamgmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 9:59 AM
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <RemoveMEpiclist@spam@spamspamBeGonemit.edu>
Subject: Re: [OT] If you still think there are no bad questions...

{Quote hidden}

I agree, it's getting very boring - but that's because it happens so often.
If it was a once in a blue moon then probably no one would notice, but it's not, it's every other day..

2010\09\23@063749 by RussellMc

face picon face
> We really should just click on delete when no engineering but moron-ing
> inside instead of analysing that all over again and again.

People may quote (and already have)  "sticks and stones ... but words
will never hurt me" and similar BUT it's not true. Different people
react differently and some are severely impacted in physical ways by
Olin's in the face approach THE major issue is the fact (and it is a
fact), that Olin's input does considerable real-world damage to an
ongoing and significant number of people. Some may be argued to be
deserving - but this is by no means always the case - and people
neither know many are effected or what %age are never known about
publically.

Real people act in a wide range of ways - some are thick skinned and
relatively impervious to rough abuse and bullying. Others are much
affected by the same treatment. Only an inconsiderate incompetent
moron with an inexcusably low grasp of the unavoidably wide range and
vast complexities of the human psyche would wish, let alone attempt to
demand, a one size fits all approach, demande that everyone feel as
she feels, behaves as he does, and fail to acknowledge other's
diversity.

Over many years, and as recently as yesterday, I have been contacted
by a steady trickle of people who advise that they lurk and listen,
but don't ask or post, specifically because of the way Olin has
treated them. Or that Olin's input has been extremely traumatic for
them.

The fact (based on his statements) that Olin doesn't care that he
hurts such people, is pleased that he does hurt such people, is
pleased when he manages to drive such people away and thinks that the
world is best when it suits him completely places him firmly in the
moron camp by his own definition. The fact that his claimed target is
people who are lazy, who don't do basic homework and who look for a
handout rather than a handup  is not the point. While it is moot how
roughly the real rogues should be handled there are too many genuinely
people who who don't deserve by any measure to be treated as they are
- based on any criteria that most here would accept.

I am concerned when I hear people suggesting giving Olin some special
rope because of this capabilities (he takes all he gets and more
already), or that we should warn all newcomers to be wary of him and
ignore him (I've spent far far too much time offlist over the years
(Olin agrees :-) )  doing this sort of damage control due to Olin and
not being fully successful.) This takes no account of the very real
damage that is done to some people that Olin doesn't care about,
seeks to inflict and welcomes. Protestations that this is NOT his aim
per se only reinforce the moron (by his definitions) appellation.

We all get it wrong on occasion - the only thing that saves me from
achieving moron status before breakfast some days is that I work very
late, sleep very late and skip breakfast - and sometimes I still
manage it in my sleep. Occasional failures are part of human nature..
The thing to avoid is the terminal state where you don't learn, don't
listen and don't care. That's the entirely understandable thing that
Olin wants to help people avoid. But he has to take due account of the
differences of his fellow man or he'll walk the path himself in the
process of trying to "save" others.

I've often enough wished that I could effectively share the occasional
comment that comes my way about the unseen impacts. Alas by their very
nature such things stay undisclosed - and I'd be surprised if there
were not a greater number of people who never say anything or just
leave.

By allowing or condoning him damaging people as certainly as if he had
broken a finger or two or kicked them in the shins, or worse,
sometimes much worse, is to make those who support his behaviour
jointly responsible for the trail of damaged people he leaves behind
him.



  Russel

2010\09\23@070735 by Oli Glaser

flavicon
face


--------------------------------------------------
From: "RussellMc" <.....apptechnzRemoveMEspamgmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 11:37 AM
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <.....piclistSTOPspamspam@spam@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [OT] If you still think there are no bad questions...

> I am concerned when I hear people suggesting giving Olin some special
> rope because of this capabilities (he takes all he gets and more
> already), or that we should warn all newcomers to be wary of him and
> ignore him

I'm (more) concerned now - I thought that Per's post was written with a heavy dose of sarcasm..

2010\09\23@074942 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
 On 23/09/2010 11:37, RussellMc wrote:
>
> I am concerned when I hear people suggesting giving Olin some special
> rope because of this capabilities (he takes all he gets and more
> already), or that we should warn all newcomers to be wary of him and
> ignore him (I've spent far far too much time offlist over the years
> (Olin agrees :-) )  doing this sort of damage control due to Olin and
> not being fully successful.)
>
>     Russell
I don't believe in Diplomatic Immunity for anything other than recognised Diplomats of Governments.

That was a concept invented, maybe for the Great Game. Otherwise Government would have had too much difficulty finding people to be diplomats

2010\09\23@095428 by Per Linne

flavicon
face
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "RussellMc" <apptechnzEraseMEspam@spam@gmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 11:37 AM
> To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <RemoveMEpiclistspamspamBeGonemit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [OT] If you still think there are no bad questions...
>
>> I am concerned when I hear people suggesting giving Olin some special
>> rope because of this capabilities (he takes all he gets and more
>> already), or that we should warn all newcomers to be wary of him and
>> ignore him
>
> I'm (more) concerned now - I thought that Per's post was written with a
> heavy dose of sarcasm..
>
>
No, it was not. It is my honest opinion.
Difficult to express though, in what is not ones motherlanguage.

PerL

2010\09\23@102745 by RussellMc

face picon face
>> I'm (more) concerned now - I thought that Per's post was written with a
>> heavy dose of sarcasm..

> No, it was not. It is my honest opinion.
> Difficult to express though, in what is not ones motherlanguage.

As noted people specifically

- Are hurt by his approach
- Don't post because of his bullying.
- Leave for the same reason.

Possible solutions to this include

- Yelling loudly "Get over it, moron!" at each new user until they
know their place and do due homage and deference to the important
people.

- Ongoing "fire fighting"

- Defenestration

- ???

                  Russell




Give him something similar to diplomatic immunity. If necessary
somehow include a
warning to newcomers to behave

2010\09\23@103028 by Geo

picon face
Sorry, I have to disagree with most of your post - the original emailer did not post in the PIClist so our "rules" are irrelevant and Olin was reporting the quality (lack of) of his question in follow-up to a recent thread about questions.

The OP (or someone with the same problem(s)) is now posting similar garbage in the USENET sci.electronic.design newsgroup:-
"hi i want to knw if anybody knw about how to program a dspic30f series
using c language??"

and

"hmm hello
can somebody tell me how to use a gatedtimer1 connected to a
transducer??
i mean im stuck on the coding part in coding in c language.
i want to start pulse frm transducer then timer start when i receiv
pulse then stop timer and value saved in mem...."

and getting similar responses to Olin's e.g:-

"The one who asks for help should have certain of knowledge and certain
level of culture. The nature of your questions and the manner of your
writing suggests that you are ignorant punk. Try asking your questions
at some other place, may be other punks will help you."


regards,
George Smith

2010\09\23@103426 by Herbert Graf

picon face
On Thu, 2010-09-23 at 07:42 +0200, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> > I've been doing mostly software work lately, so really the ONLY thing
> > I read on the list is Olin berating people.
>
> (switching to a modestly rude mode)
>
> So all Olin does is berating people????

Absolutely not.

> And where are all the friendly and helpful answers from you and your
> fellow Olin bashers to (for instance) the "Device ID question" thread??

I don't see what that has to do with anything, it's a classic
deflection.

Are YOU Wouter saying that it's valid/moral/right to do a "bad things"
as long as you do enough "good things"?

2010\09\23@105215 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Are YOU Wouter saying that it's valid/moral/right to do a "bad things"
> as long as you do enough "good things"?

No, I was responding to the "so really the ONLY thing I read on the list is Olin berating people." which seems to claim that such is all Olin does. It can of course mean that such is the only thing the poster is interested in, but I don't think that is what was meant.

Which of course leaves the question open whether what Olin does is a good thing. I seem to have a different opinion on this that most (or the most vocal?) list members.

--
Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2010\09\23@130615 by Vitaliy

face
flavicon
face
RussellMc wrote:
>> It's not just the "management". A few years back his fellow members voted
>> 2:1 to maintain the status quo.
>
> That's actually highly untrue - but I'm not blaming anyone for
> thinking it is true. I observed what was and wasn't done at the time
> and what questions were put and why. For various reasons I have
> slightly more insight into what happened overall.
>
> If anyone is interested and wants to authoritatively quote chapter and
> verse they would need to at least review all the related material. I
> don't imagine that there is in fact much point in rehashing what did
> or didn't happen then as opposed to doing whatever seems appropriate
> now - but if interested in referring to past events it may be useful
> to be aware of the above comments.
>
> If anyone is REALLY interested and is willing to sign an NDA in the
> blood of their firstborn I MAY be willing to comment offlist. But,
> maybe not, and it's not worth asking move along nothing to see here
> these are not the ones you want.

Russell, prove it.

You publicly call me a liar (for all intents and purposes), but offer no proof whatsoever. The email dated 2008/06/09 (of which you are also a recipient) is hardly ambiguous. I'm not going to sign any NDAs (my word should be good enough), but I will gladly listen to your arguments off-line and offer a public retraction of my comments if the preponderance of evidence warrants it.

I'm not saying I agree with the majority, or that I am satisfied with the process or the outcome. I simply stated the fact that the majority of those who answered the question of whether Olin should be moderated, voted in his favor.

Vitaliy

2010\09\23@132049 by James Nick Sears

flavicon
face
On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 11:12 PM, Oli Glaser <spamBeGoneoli.glaserKILLspamspam@spam@talktalk.net> wrote:
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Wouter van Ooijen" <wouterspam_OUTspam@spam@voti.nl>
> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:42 AM
> To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <spamBeGonepiclist@spam@spammit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [OT] If you still think there are no bad questions...
>
>>> I've been doing mostly software work lately, so really the ONLY thing
>>> I read on the list is Olin berating people.
>>
>> (switching to a modestly rude mode)
>>
>> So all Olin does is berating people????
>
> I think he meant those posts (the substantial number where he does berate
> someone) are all he chooses to read, for their entertainment value..

This is exactly what I meant

2010\09\23@133704 by Vitaliy

face
flavicon
face
RussellMc wrote:
> People may quote (and already have)  "sticks and stones ... but words
> will never hurt me" and similar BUT it's not true. Different people
> react differently and some are severely impacted in physical ways by
> Olin's in the face approach THE major issue is the fact (and it is a
> fact), that Olin's input does considerable real-world damage to an
> ongoing and significant number of people. Some may be argued to be
> deserving - but this is by no means always the case - and people
> neither know many are effected or what %age are never known about
> publically.

The point of the "sticks and stones" is that one can learn to choose not to be offended (not to describe the current reality).

Trust me, I know what it's like to be hurt by words. The problem is, if you measure the damage as perceived by the victim, you very quickly reach the absurd. Yesterday I heard a colleague get upset about the fact that another engineer questioned his interpretation of the symptoms exhibited by a device he was troubleshooting. That's just silly. In my home country, a dissident recently spent a year in jail for publicly calling the President an idiot. Does the punishment fit the crime?


[snip]
> I am concerned when I hear people suggesting giving Olin some special
> rope because of this capabilities (he takes all he gets and more
> already), or that we should warn all newcomers to be wary of him and
> ignore him

Me too. All men are created equal, no special privileges for anyone.


[snip]
> By allowing or condoning him damaging people as certainly as if he had
> broken a finger or two or kicked them in the shins, or worse,
> sometimes much worse,

That is just sheer nonsense. I dare anyone to come up with the most hurtful language they can muster, call me the worst names they know, and I would gladly take that abuse over the pain of a papercut.

"Oh, but *other* people... diversity... the human psyche..."  You can learn to choose.


> is to make those who support his behaviour
> jointly responsible for the trail of damaged people he leaves behind
> him.

A while ago I proposed (and suggested it several times since) a simple solution that will satisfy, to a reasonable extent, all parties. Olin agreed that it was fair, it would make the victims feel that justice had been done on their behalf, and it will reduce the admin workload. Why you refuse to even try the policy on a limited time basis, is beyond me.

Vitaliy

2010\09\23@202606 by RussellMc

face picon face
> The point of the "sticks and stones" is that one can learn to choose not to
> be offended (not to describe the current reality).

That is indeed the point. And it is a lesson the truth of which needs
to be taught from an early age.

BUT as stated, it's a lie. Words WILL sometimes hurt, and the degree
of hurt varies, and some people have much less control over this than
others. ie the truth is that hurt can and should be minimised and is
often undesirable and unnecessary and avoidable. But this is not
always so (for each of those points) and to demand it's truth is to
totally misunderstand human nature.

This is NOT a PC "excuse everything away" statement - it's an
observation from reality and one which would be agreed with by
essentially all  psychiatric / psychological / ... professionals. One
may not agree with the excesses of the "mind sciences" but to utterly
reject what is essentially one of their a foundational concepts  is
"risky" (at least).

> Trust me, I know what it's like to be hurt by words.

Most do, to various extents. I've had my own share and also had quite
a lot to do with numerous others who have had far worse than I. One
issue is that past physical history in all its varied forms can have a
completely overwhelming effect on subsequent behavioural issues.
Subtle  is the mind.
[[To take an extreme case - I have a friend who was so do mised
regularly by their father throughout much of their childhood. They in
many ways appear a normal person for all intents and purposes. In
other ways their behaviour and perceptions are seen as bizarre by
many. No excuses - but any who would suggest that such a background is
not formative in subsequent reactions in life would be, at best,
dreaming. Far less and far different than that can be very formative]]


> The problem is, if you
> measure the damage as perceived by the victim, you very quickly reach the
> absurd.

Make that " ..if you ONLY ..." and I'll agree.
If you mean that a person's perceptions are wholly irrelevant then you
can't live on the same planet as me :-).

> Yesterday I heard a colleague get upset about the fact that another
> engineer questioned his interpretation of the symptoms exhibited by a device
> he was troubleshooting. That's just silly.

I'd be surprised if you'd think tht was true in the general case.
Each situation needs to be taken on it's merits.
"Questioning the interpretation of ..." MIGHT translate into "accusing
them of using new or different Physics" as is literally the case in
another thread here. Some will laugh at this - others may feel more
bound to reract adversely.

> In my home country, a dissident
> recently spent a year in jail for publicly calling the President an idiot..
> Does the punishment fit the crime?

Probably.
If you seek to hold power dictatorially you get a fair idea of what
you have to do to maintain your hold. Maintaining an expectation of
the severest consequences for  the mildest misdemeanour will probably
help keep you in power longer. Do you disagree with the above?
(Ultimately nothing works).

> ... All men are created equal,

I agree with the concept as originally framed, but it's open to abuse
as an unqualifed statement:-).


>> By allowing or condoning him damaging people as certainly as if he had
>> broken a finger or two or kicked them in the shins, or worse,
>> sometimes much worse,

> That is just sheer nonsense.

I wish you were right. To say so suggests a misunderstanding of or
indifference to the plight of many people.

> I dare anyone to come up with the most hurtful
> language they can muster, call me the worst names they know, and I would
> gladly take that abuse over the pain of a papercut.

I think I could manage :-).
BUT considering  that how "you" react must be how  others do and
should react just demonstrates that you are not them and that you have
an inadequate understanding or experience of the unfortunate realities
of life.

> "Oh, but *other* people... diversity... the human psyche..."  You can learn
> to choose.

Some can. Variably. Othersstruggle or can't. Subtle is the mind.

>> is to make those who support his behaviour
>> jointly responsible for the trail of damaged people he leaves behind
>> him.

> A while ago I proposed (and suggested it several times since) a simple
> solution that will satisfy, to a reasonable extent, all parties. Olin agreed
> that it was fair, it would make the victims feel that justice had been done
> on their behalf, and it will reduce the admin workload. Why you refuse to
> even try the policy on a limited time basis, is beyond me.

The detail of what you suggested now totally escapes my recall BUT I
do remember that at the time I considered it unworkable and AFAIR
tantamount to giving in rather than addressing the problem. (Serious
comment.)


           Russell

2010\09\23@204003 by RussellMc

face picon face
>>> It's not just the "management". A few years back his fellow members voted
>>> 2:1 to maintain the status quo.

>> That's actually highly untrue - but I'm not blaming anyone for
>> thinking it is true. I observed what was and wasn't done at the time
>> and what questions were put and why. For various reasons I have
>> slightly more insight into what happened overall.

> Russell, prove it.

Already offered.
Conditions above.

> You publicly call me a liar (for all intents and purposes),

Not at all. Read my lips /words as above.
Note
>> ... but I'm not blaming anyone for thinking it is true. "
No blame. Just need all the facts.

> but offer no proof whatsoever.

More input offered as above BUT part of that is reading the whole material.
One Swallow doth not a summer make.

> The email dated 2008/06/09 (of which you are also a
> recipient) is hardly ambiguous.

No?

> I'm not going to sign any NDAs

Your choice.
"Signed" and NDA were  of course figurative constructs.
Blood of firstborn may give so clue on that :-).

> (my word
> should be good enough), but I will gladly listen to your arguments off-line
> and offer a public retraction of my comments if the preponderance of
> evidence warrants it.

The point of an NDA is that it offers a mutually tightly agreed to
basis for interaction on a subject.
In this case "public retraction" would probably be in violation of the
depth of NDing desired.

> I'm not saying I agree with the majority, or that I am satisfied with the
> process or the outcome. I simply stated the fact that the majority of those
> who answered the question of whether Olin should be moderated, voted in his
> favor.

I'm not saying I disagree with the reasonableness of your
understanding - just that it's based on incomplete information which
leads to misleading conclusions. This is not overly important as long
as important future actions and decisions and understandings are not
based on this understanding. As long as sleeping dogs are let lie all
is OK enough.



                  Russel

2010\09\23@222734 by ivp

face picon face
> I dare anyone to come up with the most hurtful language they
> can muster, call me the worst names they know, and I would
> gladly take that abuse over the pain of a papercut

You might do if you were expecting it. I've had a couple of
occassions when completely out of the blue someone got
extremely abusive, leaving me very much taken aback and
genuinely wondering "Where TF did *that* come from ?"

On both occassions it was not me that was the problem, but the
persons were venting and I happened to be in right place at the
right time. Even if they had gone berko to a lesser degree, things
are still said which are not quickly forgotten

If I'd known some sort of venom was coming my way, deserved
or not but directed at me personally nevertheless, I'd have been
prepared and not got anywhere near as upset

Joe

*
*
**********
Quality PIC programmers
http://www.embedinc.com/products/index.ht

2010\09\23@224740 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Sep 23, 2010, at 1:59 AM, Tamas Rudnai wrote:

> but he wrote 1 (one) message like this in this thread and now there  
> are
> more than 80 discussing about that one thing.

Olin's diatribes would be much easier to live with if there weren't so  often these MASSIVE discussions ABOUT them...

BillW

2010\09\23@225917 by RussellMc

face picon face
> Olin's diatribes would be much easier to live with if there weren't so
> often these MASSIVE discussions ABOUT them...

Only if you aren't one of the people on the receiving end of related
stuff and/or if you are and don't care.

Some care, some don't. Nobody has the automatic right to say how
people should respond when attacked. People may well have opinions on
what's sensible or appropriate to do in response, but all people are
built differently and react differently.


2010\09\24@034949 by cdb

flavicon
face
:: That is just sheer nonsense. I dare anyone to come up with the
:: most hurtful language they can muster, call me the worst names they know, and I would gladly take that abuse over the pain of a papercut.

I wonder how many wars or major family fallings out are down to sheer words causing misunderstandings or hurt feelings? More than ' I like your prize cow, so I'm invading your country mister' I'd wager.

Colin
--
cdb, RemoveMEcolinEraseMEspamKILLspambtech-online.co.uk on 24/09/2010
Web presence: http://www.btech-online.co.uk   Hosted by:  http://www.1and1.co.uk/?k_id=7988359
 


2010\09\24@075513 by RussellMc

face picon face
> That is just sheer nonsense. I dare anyone to come up with the most hurtful
> language they can muster, call me the worst names they know, and I would
> gladly take that abuse over the pain of a papercut.

I'd be willing to bet you a peppercorn (higher stakes than I'm usually
wont to wager) that I could do that with relative ease. I don't wish
or intend to even provide examples with any content. You didn't say
that it had to be true. Given that, a subtle mix of say family,
business, ethics, morals, patriotism, racism and a bit more, posted
with suitable terms to ensure it was picked up by major search engines
and maybe sent to a few selected websites would have you uncertain
whether to 1st reach for your shotgun,  ring your lawyer or start to
work out how to raise a Posse Comitatus in NZ.
What say I add a :-) on the end of that.
On reflection I'd hope that you'd agree that that was true. That is
of course a very extreme case to make a point, and even much less
would suffice. My point is that we almost all have a point at which we
get pushed over the edge. It varies widely and as you indicate that
you are thick skinned and uncaring about such things, you probably
can't do a really good job of putting yourself in sensitive people's
shoes.


  Russel

2010\09\24@111824 by YES NOPE9

flavicon
face

A brief interjection........
I find the comments of several people on this list much more ( a magnitude ) upsetting than Olin.
I recognize that my upset says more about me than them.
I don't expect them to modify their worldview And I will continue to seek and implement methods to modify the world so it works just the way I want it to.
[ BTW , If I were master of the universe ( MOTU ) , I would view Olin as one of my better creations. ]
Gu

2010\09\24@142507 by Vitaliy

face
flavicon
face
Russell,

I'm very very busy with work and have no time to address your equating "so do mise" with "hurtful words" etc, but I wanted to very quickly comment on this:

> A while ago I proposed (and suggested it several times since) a simple
> solution that will satisfy, to a reasonable extent, all parties. Olin
> agreed
> that it was fair, it would make the victims feel that justice had been
> done
> on their behalf, and it will reduce the admin workload. Why you refuse to
> even try the policy on a limited time basis, is beyond me.
----------
The detail of what you suggested now totally escapes my recall BUT I
do remember that at the time I considered it unworkable and AFAIR
tantamount to giving in rather than addressing the problem. (Serious
comment.)
----------

My posts are far less numerous than yours. Please do a quick search, I believe it should not take you more than 5 minutes to find the relevant messages. If you are serious about discussing its merits, please start a new thread.

Vitaliy

2010\09\24@210343 by RussellMc

face picon face
> I'm very very busy with work

And I certainly should be.

> ... and have no time ...

uphill, both ways, in the snow, no shoes, bottom of a lake, cardboard box .... .
Yes. Absolutely. I resemble that.

> to address your equating "so
> do mise" with "hurtful words" etc, but I wanted to very quickly comment on
> this:

1. I had to go back and read what I'd said to make sense of that :-).
[[spacings were an attempt to keep it away from the search engines -
we can do without their excess attentions on such largely unrelated
matters. ]].
That sort of thing really really really should be quoted in full
context if at all as it has the potential to be misunderstood beyond
all reasonableness. The context was that as an EXTREME real world
example, a person who had been put through extreme physical
circumstances had their whole response to subsequent situations is
life affected in ways which would make no sense at all to people who
were unaware of their background but would  make lots of  sense to
those who were. I was suggesting that while such things are linear,
past history and environment and unavoidable genetics shape people's
subsequent responses to life in ways in which they have incomplete
control over. Or, as I summarised it, subtle is the mind. I am not
wishing to make PC excuses for people's behaviours - only to note that
there is much that shapes human lives that all concerned and
unconcerned are often unaware of.

2.
> Please do a quick search,
> I believe it should not take you more than 5 minutes to find the relevant
> messages.

Your faith in my abilities is flattering - but in this context and
order of magnitude is still too small.

> If you are serious about discussing its merits, please start a new
> thread.

You can (hopefully) do better than that.
I just had a long and unpleasant wade through all sorts of stuff - the
better part of an hour !!! :-( -  I'd rather not have had to revisit,
some of the lighter moments involving adumbrations of fascism and
someone (possibly Vitaliy :-) ) walking home with a paid bus ticket
:-).

I found a number of places where you refer to what you've said before,
(the exact same thing you are referring to now). I found a post 6
months + 1 day ago where I asked you to state clearly what you were
talking about so we could examine it again, but you seem to have
declined to do so then as now.

If you think your prior offerings have current merit then please
repost them, modified or as was. Without specific reference there have
been so many posts under so many headings that asking anyone else to
find which one you are referring to needs to be a paying job :-)
(which I wouldn't want to take).

It does seem that I compassed  my likely response locus "extremely
well" 6 or so months ago. I doubt that anyone really wants me to do
that again :-).


       Russel

2010\09\24@212643 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
 On 25/09/2010 02:03, RussellMc wrote:
{Quote hidden}

it 2.25am here
but I suspect later in the day this make no sense either. maybe needs to be off list? Don't listen to me I should be in bed 3 hrs ag

2010\09\24@215302 by RussellMc

face picon face
> but I suspect later in the day this make no sense either. maybe needs to
> be off list? Don't listen to me I should be in bed 3 hrs ago

:-)

>> uphill, both ways, in the snow, no shoes, bottom of a lake, cardboard box ... .

Monty Python. 3 Yorkshiremen. Oft quotes in similar contexts.
Not that I've ever actually seen it - just heard it oft quoted.

>>> to address your equating ...
>> That sort of thing really really really should be quoted in full
>> context ...

Doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense. You'd have to have been following it.
It was making a severe point as to how past events can and do shape us
- even though not visible to others.


2010\09\25@072704 by Marechiare

picon face
>>> uphill, both ways, in the snow, no shoes, bottom of a lake,
>>> cardboard box ... .
>
> Monty Python. 3 Yorkshiremen.

"4 Yorkshiremen", not 3, or "40 years ago".

uphill, one way, no snow - some rock opera 40 years ago. Kind of "For
the sake of the nation this Olin must ..."

Really guys, do you think  all that jazz  is needed on the list? I guess no :-)
---
a bit pathetic, I know :-

2010\09\25@073256 by RussellMc

face picon face
> A brief interjection........
> I find the comments of several people on this list much more ( a magnitude ) upsetting than Olin.

If you are going to make such comments, and you are very welcome to,
then it would be helpful if you could provide we mere mortals with a
filter that allowed us to better understand who/what you mean. A list
of names would serve, but an explanation of the general ethos would be
good. (Godwin may or may not be invoked as seems appropriate to you
:-) ).

> [ BTW , If I were master of the universe ( MOTU ) , I would view Olin as one of my better creations. ]

That immediately brought to mind visions of God's most beautful
creation :-) - but I decided that that wasn't really apposite :-).


2010\09\25@073425 by RussellMc

face picon face
>>>> uphill, both ways, in the snow, no shoes, bottom of a lake,
>>>> cardboard box ... .

> uphill, one way, no snow - some rock opera 40 years ago. Kind of "For
> the sake of the nation this Olin must ..."

> Really guys, do you think  all that jazz  is needed on the list? I guess no :-)

I don't. But it can help soften some edges, sometimes, and as long
it's in [OT] invention is the mother of necessity :-).

           R

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