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'[OT] How to Get Rich selling a dummy PCB, a ferrit'
2007\10\04@192654 by Hector Martin

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Oops, forgot the tag. My apologies. Hm, I don't know if I should put
this in [EE]. Probably in [!E] :)


The Audiophile world never ceases to amaze me.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue19/goldensound.htm

Sometimes I wonder if these people live in some sort of parallel reality.

The innards of the Intelligent Chip:
http://www.machinadynamica.com/3dots.jpg

How do PICListers deal with friends/relatives who subscribe to all this
snake oil?

--
Hector Martin (spam_OUThectorTakeThisOuTspammarcansoft.com)
Public Key: http://www.marcansoft.com/marcan.asc


2007\10\04@194756 by Jake Anderson

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Hector Martin wrote:
> Oops, forgot the tag. My apologies. Hm, I don't know if I should put
> this in [EE]. Probably in [!E] :)
>
>
> The Audiophile world never ceases to amaze me.
>
> http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue19/goldensound.htm
>
> Sometimes I wonder if these people live in some sort of parallel reality.
>
> The innards of the Intelligent Chip:
> http://www.machinadynamica.com/3dots.jpg
>
> How do PICListers deal with friends/relatives who subscribe to all this
> snake oil?
>
>  
Oh My God.
I am so in the wrong game.

2007\10\04@194941 by Xiaofan Chen

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On 10/5/07, Hector Martin <.....hectorKILLspamspam@spam@marcansoft.com> wrote:
> Oops, forgot the tag. My apologies. Hm, I don't know if I should put
> this in [EE]. Probably in [!E] :)
>
> The Audiophile world never ceases to amaze me.
>
> http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue19/goldensound.htm
>
> Sometimes I wonder if these people live in some sort of parallel reality.
>
> The innards of the Intelligent Chip:
> http://www.machinadynamica.com/3dots.jpg

They are an interesting group of people. Some of them are
quite technical orientated. Some like to DIY to are modding
cheaper stuff to get so called better sound. Some have deep
pockets to spend on those expensive speakers and strange
enhancement items. Some are true music lovers and spend
big money on collecting CDs/tapes/EPs. So it is kind of
culture.

> How do PICListers deal with friends/relatives who subscribe
> to all this snake oil?

Let them be. Above certain level ( you do not expect your
US$10 speaker and integrated sound card to product good
sound), it becomes very subjective to check the sound quality.
So this extra items may really make a difference. They might
not be as important as the device, the cables, power filters
and the placement.

I actually enjoy reading all those reviews. But I have neither
deep pockets nor good ear to hear the differences.

Xiaofan

2007\10\04@201434 by Paul Anderson

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On 10/4/07, Xiaofan Chen <xiaofancspamKILLspamgmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Let them be. Above certain level ( you do not expect your
> US$10 speaker and integrated sound card to product good
> sound), it becomes very subjective to check the sound quality.
> So this extra items may really make a difference.
>
I'm not sure you looked at the link:)  These aren't cables, or
amplifiers.  These work on *magic*.  For them to function as described
is not merely unlikely, it is a *physical impossibility*.

Quoting from the linked page:

>From the Golden Sound website: "The Intelligent Chip is a thin, orange
1 x 1.5 inch rectangular wafer that automatically upgrades the disc in
the player when the Chip is placed momentarily on top of the player
above the spinning disc. The upgrade itself is virtually
instantaneous—and permanent..." The very brief explanation that
follows talks about problems "…produced by slight fluctuations in the
master clock(s) when pressing the disc… The Intelligent Chip corrects
the clock-fluctuation problem within 2 seconds." The corrected disc is
claimed to sound, "clearer/less distorted, with a deeper soundstage,
more "air", and lower background noise".

This is a humbug.  For it to function as described is simply not even
remotely possible.

--
Paul Anderson
VE6HOP
.....wackyvorlonKILLspamspam.....gmail.com
http://www.oldschoolhacker.com
"May the electromotive force be with you."

2007\10\04@202700 by Hector Martin

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Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> They are an interesting group of people. Some of them are
> quite technical orientated. Some like to DIY to are modding
> cheaper stuff to get so called better sound. Some have deep
> pockets to spend on those expensive speakers and strange
> enhancement items. Some are true music lovers and spend
> big money on collecting CDs/tapes/EPs. So it is kind of
> culture.

I'm talking about the people who believe that a more expensive SPDIF
cable sounds better, a $500 HDMI cable makes colors more vibrant, $400
power cables improve the tone balance, and worst of all (see my original
post), believe that a PCB placed on top of a CD player can actually do
anything to the sound, much less permanently change and improve the
actual disc placed within.

This is much much different than buying expensive good speakers or good
analog interconnects.


--
Hector Martin (EraseMEhectorspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmarcansoft.com)
Public Key: http://www.marcansoft.com/marcan.asc

2007\10\04@210527 by Xiaofan Chen

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On 10/5/07, Hector Martin <hectorspamspam_OUTmarcansoft.com> wrote:
> Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> > They are an interesting group of people. Some of them are
> > quite technical orientated. Some like to DIY to are modding
> > cheaper stuff to get so called better sound. Some have deep
> > pockets to spend on those expensive speakers and strange
> > enhancement items. Some are true music lovers and spend
> > big money on collecting CDs/tapes/EPs. So it is kind of
> > culture.
>
> I'm talking about the people who believe that a more expensive SPDIF
> cable sounds better, a $500 HDMI cable makes colors more vibrant, $400
> power cables improve the tone balance,

I won't buy them. But they must see/hear/feel the difference to fork out
the money.

> and worst of all (see my original post), believe that a PCB placed
> on top of a CD player can actually do anything to the sound, much
> less permanently change and improve the actual disc placed within.

Some of the Japanese sound lovers put specailly made GO chess
pieces here and there and find that they can hear the differences.
This might be psychological effect but if they are buying this,
why not.

> This is much much different than buying expensive good
> speakers or good analog interconnects.


Regards,
Xiaofan

2007\10\04@210834 by Xiaofan Chen

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On 10/5/07, Xiaofan Chen <@spam@xiaofancKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
>
> They are an interesting group of people. Some of them are
> quite technical orientated. Some like to DIY to are modding
> cheaper stuff to get so called better sound. Some have deep
> pockets to spend on those expensive speakers and strange
> enhancement items. Some are true music lovers and spend
> big money on collecting CDs/tapes/EPs. So it is kind of
> culture.
>

Or kind of like religion. You believe in it and you devote your
believes in it.

> How do PICListers deal with friends/relatives who subscribe
> to all this snake oil?

Do not underestimate the psychological effect of those
snail oil. Basically my point of view is not to use engineering
point of view to try to be the myth buster...

Xiaofan

2007\10\04@211720 by Paul Anderson

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On 10/4/07, Xiaofan Chen <KILLspamxiaofancKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I won't buy them. But they must see/hear/feel the difference to fork out
> the money.
>
>
It's treated as something that is extremely subjective.  There are no
measurements taken.  If a man in a labcoat gives a subject a sugar
pill and tells him that it will make colours appear more vivid for the
next few hours, the subject will tend to see colours as being more
vivid.

--
Paul Anderson
VE6HOP
RemoveMEwackyvorlonTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com
http://www.oldschoolhacker.com
"May the electromotive force be with you."

2007\10\04@212040 by Jinx

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> The Audiophile world never ceases to amaze me.
>
> http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue19/goldensound.htm

Marshall Hack did leave out one important detail - that he has
been kicked in the head by a donkey

2007\10\04@213055 by Gerhard Fiedler

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Xiaofan Chen wrote:

> Do not underestimate the psychological effect of those snail oil.

Exactly. I never understood why they are not trying to enhance the placebo
effect (rather than eliminate it). But on second thought, it's obvious:
they wouldn't make that much money with it... The question is whether most
of the pharma products are the /real/ snake oil.

Applying to audio products: If someone has an "enhanced experience" (i.e.
is more happy) buying such products, what's the problem? Don't tell me
everything you spend your money on has an objective, in a double-blind
trial verifiable reason... :)

Gerhard

2007\10\04@214039 by Martin Klingensmith
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But it's supposedly an /engineered/ device, why can't I use engineering
to prove that their compact-flash-looking "quantum device" is a myth?
-
Martin

Xiaofan Chen wrote:
>
> Do not underestimate the psychological effect of those
> snail oil. Basically my point of view is not to use engineering
> point of view to try to be the myth buster...
>
> Xiaofan

2007\10\04@214255 by D. Daniel McGlothin

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> These work on *magic*.

Probably not.  But just a few hundred years ago radio and certain other
talking machines were magic.


> For it to function as described is simply not even remotely possible.

Probably true.


From this description...
"The presentation became softer, frequency transitions were more
graceful and supple, and this applied across the frequency spectrum, not
just the top. The tonal balance did get lighter, but this was due to a
more energetic upper-midrange, rather than more treble. One ill effect:
macro dynamics were slightly impacted."
...the latter two devices probably act as filters of various types.  The
"chip" thingy (is it a magnet?) probably works at clearing the "smudge"
of the vaporized patter when the disk was "burnt".  I've long wondered
what happens to the substrate that was in the "pits" when a CD is burned.

Anyway, it is safe to make claims of operation at (little understood
areas of) the quantum level--who can refute them?  <grin>

Daniel

2007\10\04@215349 by Paul Anderson

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On 10/4/07, Gerhard Fiedler <spamBeGonelistsspamBeGonespamconnectionbrazil.com> wrote:
>
>
> Applying to audio products: If someone has an "enhanced experience" (i.e.
> is more happy) buying such products, what's the problem? Don't tell me
> everything you spend your money on has an objective, in a double-blind
> trial verifiable reason... :)
>
Part of the issue is the cost.  These products are not just hokum,
they are *expensive* hokum.

For example:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/c37_e.html

This lacquer sells for $300 for 50ml.  Other things I've encountered
where $500 wooden volume knobs.

They are expensive, and they are lies.  Only through knowledge of real
science and real electronics can you *actually* build a good stereo
system.  These humbugs just serve to distract and confuse people.

--
Paul Anderson
VE6HOP
TakeThisOuTwackyvorlonEraseMEspamspam_OUTgmail.com
http://www.oldschoolhacker.com
"May the electromotive force be with you."

2007\10\04@231338 by John Chung

picon face

--- Paul Anderson <RemoveMEwackyvorlonspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

What kind of audio system can we build from ready
parts?

John


     
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/

2007\10\05@011628 by David VanHorn

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www.soundstage.com/revequip/crystalcable_ultra_pc_followup.htm

One of my favorite forms of serpentine lubrication....
$4065 per two-meter power cord

Of course it plugs into the same 50 year old crappy 12 GA wire in the
wall, which has the same old amount of noise and distortion on it..
But somehow, magically, replace that last six feet, and:  "you're
going to hear your music with newfound speed and agility. They don't
achieve this by somehow brightening up the sound, but rather, my ears
tell me, by stripping away the fine-grained noise that rides along
with the musical signal. There is less grunge and more apparent
signal, giving the music a sunnier, more nimble quality."

Yeah, sure..

2007\10\05@023123 by Philip Pemberton

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Hector Martin wrote:
> The Audiophile world never ceases to amaze me.
>
> http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue19/goldensound.htm

Two words: Placebo Effect.

--
Phil.                         |  (\_/)  This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny
RemoveMEpiclistEraseMEspamEraseMEphilpem.me.uk         | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain
http://www.philpem.me.uk/     | (")_(") world domination.

2007\10\05@030252 by Tony Smith

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{Quote hidden}

James Randi think this stuff falls into the paranormal category, so he
offers people $1,000,000 if they can prove their claims.  See
<www.randi.org/jr/2007-10/100507web.html#i9>,
<http://www.randi.org/jr/2007-09/092807reply.html#i4> &
<http://www.randi.org/jr/121004science.html#11>.  Those involved are far too
busy picking lint out of their bellybuttons to spend half a day testing
cables for a large slab of cash.

The oxygen-free cables (OFC) are a perfect example of stating the obvious,
you might as well add 'conducts electricity! - in both directions!' to the
marketing blurb.  All copper is oxygen free these days.  Years ago some
recycled copper turned out a bit dodgy, AFAIR.

The cynic in me feels these $$$$$$ cables are a distraction to get people to
buy more expensive cables in general.  Old sales trick, first show the
medium price range, then the overly expensive one (to which most people's
reaction is 'Gah!!'), and finally the cheap-n-nasty.  Most people 'bounce'
back up the price list, even when the cheap-n-nasty is perfectly ok.  You
don't want to appear to be a tight-arse.

If you read some of the comments you see people say 'well, I'll just buy the
Monster Cable then, there no difference between them and the $$$$$$ ones,
but there is between Monster and the rest.'  Yay for Monster, last years
'overpriced cables for wankers' are now seen as legit.

I'll stick with using mains cable.

Tony

2007\10\05@042326 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Microwave (what ? microwave ? Yes, microwave) tweeters
>
> http://www.goldensound.com/productlist/next-generation-audio-accessories

Oh, I do think I will need a set of the Soundstage Enhancer units ...
my ultra wideband frequencies do need stimulating ...

Mind you, they must be real good value for the money, as they can correct
the acoustics of any room. 'By adding 100-500Hz white noise (!) they stop
the sound waves of similar frequencies bumping up against each other,
resulting in lost details ...'

2007\10\05@043317 by Alan B. Pearce

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>They don't achieve this by somehow brightening up the sound, but
>rather, my ears tell me, by stripping away the fine-grained noise
>that rides along with the musical signal. There is less grunge
>and more apparent signal, giving the music a sunnier, more
>nimble quality."

Umm, yeah, but hang on - these are power cables, how they do that to the
audio signal ???? ;)))

2007\10\05@050835 by Paul Anderson

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On 10/5/07, Alan B. Pearce <RemoveMEA.B.PearceKILLspamspamrl.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> Mind you, they must be real good value for the money, as they can correct
> the acoustics of any room. 'By adding 100-500Hz white noise (!) they stop
> the sound waves of similar frequencies bumping up against each other,
> resulting in lost details ...'
>
I'm still trying to figure out how they stop the white noise from
bumping in to the waves:)

--
Paul Anderson
VE6HOP
wackyvorlonSTOPspamspamspam_OUTgmail.com
http://www.oldschoolhacker.com
"May the electromotive force be with you."

2007\10\05@073053 by Howard Winter

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picon face
Xiaofan,

On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 09:04:49 +0800, Xiaofan Chen wrote:

> On 10/5/07, Hector Martin <spamBeGonehectorSTOPspamspamEraseMEmarcansoft.com> wrote:
> >...
> > I'm talking about the people who believe that a more expensive SPDIF
> > cable sounds better, a $500 HDMI cable makes colors more vibrant, $400
> > power cables improve the tone balance,
>
> I won't buy them. But they must see/hear/feel the difference to fork out
> the money.

There's an old English expression: "A fool and his money are soon parted"

I wish a few of them would part with it to me, but I seem to have ethics that prevent that... Dammit!  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2007\10\05@081945 by David VanHorn

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> Description/Theory: These remarkable speakers, sold in pairs,
> operate at extremely high frequencies -- much higher than the audio
> band - actually in the microwave band, above 1 Gigahertz (GHz).
> The Ultra Tweeters are connected to the output terminals of existing
> speakers with speaker cables - preferably light, flexible ones - since
> the Ultra Tweeters themselves are quite light. Ultra Tweeter principle
> of operation is very unconventional. They don't generate sound in the
> audio band, or even in the 20-100 KHz band like super-tweeters,
> but function in the Gigahertz frequency band (normally used for
> satellite and microwave communications). Ultra Tweeters organize
> and improve the energy flow in signal conductors as well as the
> internal wirings of speaker drivers, making the audio system perform
> more efficiently and synergistically


And where's their part 15 cert?  :)

2007\10\05@083612 by Ariel Rocholl

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You may think that some wood on top of your tweeter can produce some
psychological effect on some people, and that is a difficult point to
discuss about. The fact that you charge $600 for that is probably easier to
discuss.

In fact, what I would find hard anyone supporting is that they sell a
standard ferrite choke pair for $130 (see "Mini Magic Ring"). This should be
illegal IMHO. Where is consumer protection office (something we pay tax
for)? Can you think on some of your elderly relatives buying two chokes for
$130 and still being OK?


2007/10/5, Xiaofan Chen KILLspamxiaofancspamBeGonespamgmail.com:
>
>
> Do not underestimate the psychological effect of those
> snail oil. Basically my point of view is not to use engineering
> point of view to try to be the myth buster...
>
> Xiaofan
> -

2007\10\05@083754 by Martin Klingensmith

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It sounds like they get high between the before and after tests.
--
Martin K

David VanHorn wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2007\10\05@085236 by Gerhard Fiedler

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Martin Klingensmith wrote:

> But it's supposedly an /engineered/ device, why can't I use engineering
> to prove that their compact-flash-looking "quantum device" is a myth?

Of course you can, but so what? There are people who shell out big bucks to
rent an airplane, take off from an airport, fly around a couple of hours,
just to eventually land at the same airport, not only spending their time
and money on the way but also a number of externalities. There's also no
discernible objective reason for that -- besides that it makes the one who
does it somehow feel good. So what's the difference?

(The hobby pilots may forgive me; this is just an example. There are many
others -- basically most things we do for fun.)

Gerhard

2007\10\05@093942 by Martin Klingensmith

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A lot of the people I know who do this do it to get their license or
instrument rating. At least you get some thrill out of it. I understand
your idea but I think a better comparison is making toilet paper out of
$100 bills because "the cotton texture mixed with the finest paper pulp
.." well I won't get too graphic. Anyway, to each his own. =)
-
Martin K

Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2007\10\05@120804 by alan smith

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oh boy.....

Gotta love the part where it "knows" how many you have treated....with....what? Holy moly Martha.....are people that....errr.....uniformed that they believe it?  Friend of mine, years ago, at CES, had a room reserved where they were selling custom high end multi-thousand dollar speaker systems.  Guy walks in...says..use these cables...after listening for a bit.  Friend goes behind..fiddles...comes back....ahhhhh...the customer says...that sounds so much better with my expensive cables.   Friend smiles....nods....and doesnt tell him he never changed the cables.

Part of me laughs....

Part of me gets really annoyed....

Part of me knows....with the right marketing and hype, farmers can sell cow crap as doorstops....

I shrug my shoulders....and imagine....what can I make that can sell thousands with a 500% profit and still allow me to not have to go into hiding....


oh well..back to work...making others rich with my abilities  :-)


     
---------------------------------
Don't let your dream ride pass you by.    Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos.

2007\10\05@151501 by Paul Anderson

face picon face
On 10/5/07, Gerhard Fiedler <EraseMElistsspamEraseMEconnectionbrazil.com> wrote:
>
>
> (The hobby pilots may forgive me; this is just an example. There are many
> others -- basically most things we do for fun.)
>
>
In truth, though, there is no deception involved with the hobby pilot.
He knows what he is buying, and he receives it.  With these
audiophile gadgets people are not getting what they think they are.
They are being lied to and cheated, something much of the audiophile
literature is complicit with.


--
Paul Anderson
VE6HOP
@spam@wackyvorlon@spam@spamspam_OUTgmail.com
http://www.oldschoolhacker.com
"May the electromotive force be with you."

2007\10\05@152645 by Mike Hord

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> oh well..back to work...making others rich with my abilities  :-)

These companies don't have engineers, just marketing people.

Mike H.

2007\10\05@160401 by wouter van ooijen

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> > oh well..back to work...making others rich with my abilities  :-)
>
> These companies don't have engineers, just marketing people.

James, does social engineering belong to the [EE] tag?

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu



2007\10\05@160612 by Gerhard Fiedler

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Paul Anderson wrote:

>> (The hobby pilots may forgive me; this is just an example. There are
>> many others -- basically most things we do for fun.)
>
> In truth, though, there is no deception involved with the hobby pilot.
> He knows what he is buying, and he receives it.  

Probably that's the case with hobby pilots; there is usually little
advertising involved. But, say, with cars? Or food? Or personal hygiene or
cosmetics? Look at any advertising, check out what the implied promise is
(not the explicit one) -- that is, the stuff that's not factually
disprovable --, and review that. There will be few ads that won't lead to
certain deception.

(The disprovable stuff is probably equally meager in ads for those
overpriced audio products and all other consumer items. There is usually
very little of it in the ads. Try a shampoo ad, for example. Carefully
crafted language that passed the "says basically nothing that can be
disproven" lawyer test.)

> With these audiophile gadgets people are not getting what they think they
> are.

They are getting a good feeling, otherwise they wouldn't buy it. That's
about the same you get when you buy a <your favorite junk food> from your
preferred outlet. Objectively (in terms of nutritional value), you're
buying junk. You could get a much more (objectively) nutritive meal for
less, sometimes much less. Some consumers will know that and buy it anyway,
other won't (and some of them maybe wouldn't buy it if they knew). In any
case, the junk food outlet's or chain's advertising is not much help with
the issue. Nor is the Big Burger Association's literature.

> They are being lied to and cheated, something much of the audiophile
> literature is complicit with.

Goes equally for most consumer products. Best skin care? Use only cold
water and plenty of fresh air on your skin. No ad or beauty magazine will
tell you that.

Audiophile literature is probably written by audiophiles for audiophiles --
they write what they want to read :)  If they want the good stuff about
audio, they probably should read sound engineer literature.

Anyway, whoever pays 130 USD for such a gimmick without serious research,
acquiring some knowledge based on reproducible facts along the way, has
little sympathy from me. Many people here live a month on less than that. I
tend to think they simply have too much money on their hands, and if they
hadn't bought this crap they'd buy some other crap.

Gerhard

2007\10\05@161828 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Ariel Rocholl wrote:

> Where is consumer protection office (something we pay tax for)?

I think consumer protection works only (and should only work) if there are
objective claims that are not fulfilled. If there are in fact objective
claims and you can show that they are not fulfilled, I don't think you have
a problem sticking it to them using consumer protection means.

> Can you think on some of your elderly relatives buying two chokes for
> $130 [...]

No. My parents wouldn't buy it -- not for technical reasons, but because
they don't feel they need it.

> [...] and still being OK?

Well, if it were my relatives, I'd advise them against it. If they can
afford to buy something obviously non-essential for 130 USD and not do any
research (at least asking around among relatives to get some advise), then
they either have enough money on their hands so that they effectively
didn't get harmed, or they haven't learned much on their way to elderness.

Anybody who feels that his 500 USD sound system isn't good enough should
know that he's now in a league where he has to know some stuff to be able
to spend wisely. Who doesn't know that has to learn it -- somehow.

Gerhard

2007\10\05@164016 by TGO-cablemas

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I still use good old lamp cable from the hardware store...
If I need more capacity I just parallel some of them.
I hope no "audiophiles" faint when they read this!!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Smith" <spamBeGoneajsmithspamKILLspamrivernet.com.au>
To: "'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.'" <.....piclistspam_OUTspammit.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 11:37 PM
Subject: RE: [OT] How to Get Rich selling a dummy PCB, a ferrite choke,and a
most likely empty wooden box


>
>
>> {Original Message removed}

2007\10\05@174946 by James Newton

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> James, does social engineering belong to the [EE] tag?

*GROAN*

If you really want an answer, I guess the answer would be no, because it
isn't related to the actual technical details of an engineering issue. But I
wouldn't care if it were tagged EE or OT.

Actually, let me answer that in a better way: Either is fine for that
subject.

--
James.

2007\10\06@093456 by David VanHorn

picon face
> Umm, yeah, but hang on - these are power cables, how they do that to the
> audio signal ???? ;)))

What? You can't hear that difference?  Man.. Too bad about your hearing!

VVBG!

2007\10\06@103614 by John Chung

picon face

--- David VanHorn <TakeThisOuTmicrobrix.....spamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:

> > Umm, yeah, but hang on - these are power cables,
> how they do that to the
> > audio signal ???? ;)))
>
> What? You can't hear that difference?  Man.. Too bad
> about your hearing!
>
> VVBG!
> --
 Reply: dude, do you hear your baby crying?
 Audiophile: ..................

:)
John


     
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