Post by thread:[OT] How to Get Rich selling a dummy PCB, a ferrit

Oops, forgot the tag. My apologies. Hm, I don't know if I should put this in [EE]. Probably in [!E] :) The Audiophile world never ceases to amaze me. http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue19/goldensound.htm Sometimes I wonder if these people live in some sort of parallel reality. The innards of the Intelligent Chip: http://www.machinadynamica.com/3dots.jpg How do PICListers deal with friends/relatives who subscribe to all this snake oil? -- Hector Martin (spam_OUThectorTakeThisOuTmarcansoft.com) Public Key: http://www.marcansoft.com/marcan.asc

Hector Martin wrote: > Oops, forgot the tag. My apologies. Hm, I don't know if I should put > this in [EE]. Probably in [!E] :) > > > The Audiophile world never ceases to amaze me. > > http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue19/goldensound.htm > > Sometimes I wonder if these people live in some sort of parallel reality. > > The innards of the Intelligent Chip: > http://www.machinadynamica.com/3dots.jpg > > How do PICListers deal with friends/relatives who subscribe to all this > snake oil? > > Oh My God. I am so in the wrong game.

On 10/5/07, Hector Martin <.....hectorKILLspam@spam@marcansoft.com> wrote: > Oops, forgot the tag. My apologies. Hm, I don't know if I should put > this in [EE]. Probably in [!E] :) > > The Audiophile world never ceases to amaze me. > > http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue19/goldensound.htm > > Sometimes I wonder if these people live in some sort of parallel reality. > > The innards of the Intelligent Chip: > http://www.machinadynamica.com/3dots.jpg They are an interesting group of people. Some of them are quite technical orientated. Some like to DIY to are modding cheaper stuff to get so called better sound. Some have deep pockets to spend on those expensive speakers and strange enhancement items. Some are true music lovers and spend big money on collecting CDs/tapes/EPs. So it is kind of culture. > How do PICListers deal with friends/relatives who subscribe > to all this snake oil? Let them be. Above certain level ( you do not expect your US$10 speaker and integrated sound card to product good sound), it becomes very subjective to check the sound quality. So this extra items may really make a difference. They might not be as important as the device, the cables, power filters and the placement. I actually enjoy reading all those reviews. But I have neither deep pockets nor good ear to hear the differences. Xiaofan

On 10/4/07, Xiaofan Chen <xiaofancKILLspamgmail.com> wrote: > > > Let them be. Above certain level ( you do not expect your > US$10 speaker and integrated sound card to product good > sound), it becomes very subjective to check the sound quality. > So this extra items may really make a difference. > I'm not sure you looked at the link:) These aren't cables, or amplifiers. These work on *magic*. For them to function as described is not merely unlikely, it is a *physical impossibility*. Quoting from the linked page: >From the Golden Sound website: "The Intelligent Chip is a thin, orange 1 x 1.5 inch rectangular wafer that automatically upgrades the disc in the player when the Chip is placed momentarily on top of the player above the spinning disc. The upgrade itself is virtually instantaneous—and permanent..." The very brief explanation that follows talks about problems "…produced by slight fluctuations in the master clock(s) when pressing the disc… The Intelligent Chip corrects the clock-fluctuation problem within 2 seconds." The corrected disc is claimed to sound, "clearer/less distorted, with a deeper soundstage, more "air", and lower background noise". This is a humbug. For it to function as described is simply not even remotely possible. -- Paul Anderson VE6HOP .....wackyvorlonKILLspam.....gmail.com http://www.oldschoolhacker.com "May the electromotive force be with you."

Xiaofan Chen wrote: > They are an interesting group of people. Some of them are > quite technical orientated. Some like to DIY to are modding > cheaper stuff to get so called better sound. Some have deep > pockets to spend on those expensive speakers and strange > enhancement items. Some are true music lovers and spend > big money on collecting CDs/tapes/EPs. So it is kind of > culture. I'm talking about the people who believe that a more expensive SPDIF cable sounds better, a $500 HDMI cable makes colors more vibrant, $400 power cables improve the tone balance, and worst of all (see my original post), believe that a PCB placed on top of a CD player can actually do anything to the sound, much less permanently change and improve the actual disc placed within. This is much much different than buying expensive good speakers or good analog interconnects. -- Hector Martin (EraseMEhectorspam_OUTTakeThisOuTmarcansoft.com) Public Key: http://www.marcansoft.com/marcan.asc

On 10/5/07, Hector Martin <hectorspam_OUTmarcansoft.com> wrote: > Xiaofan Chen wrote: > > They are an interesting group of people. Some of them are > > quite technical orientated. Some like to DIY to are modding > > cheaper stuff to get so called better sound. Some have deep > > pockets to spend on those expensive speakers and strange > > enhancement items. Some are true music lovers and spend > > big money on collecting CDs/tapes/EPs. So it is kind of > > culture. > > I'm talking about the people who believe that a more expensive SPDIF > cable sounds better, a $500 HDMI cable makes colors more vibrant, $400 > power cables improve the tone balance, I won't buy them. But they must see/hear/feel the difference to fork out the money. > and worst of all (see my original post), believe that a PCB placed > on top of a CD player can actually do anything to the sound, much > less permanently change and improve the actual disc placed within. Some of the Japanese sound lovers put specailly made GO chess pieces here and there and find that they can hear the differences. This might be psychological effect but if they are buying this, why not. > This is much much different than buying expensive good > speakers or good analog interconnects. Regards, Xiaofan

On 10/5/07, Xiaofan Chen <@spam@xiaofancKILLspamgmail.com> wrote: > > They are an interesting group of people. Some of them are > quite technical orientated. Some like to DIY to are modding > cheaper stuff to get so called better sound. Some have deep > pockets to spend on those expensive speakers and strange > enhancement items. Some are true music lovers and spend > big money on collecting CDs/tapes/EPs. So it is kind of > culture. > Or kind of like religion. You believe in it and you devote your believes in it. > How do PICListers deal with friends/relatives who subscribe > to all this snake oil? Do not underestimate the psychological effect of those snail oil. Basically my point of view is not to use engineering point of view to try to be the myth buster... Xiaofan

On 10/4/07, Xiaofan Chen <KILLspamxiaofancKILLspamgmail.com> wrote: > > > I won't buy them. But they must see/hear/feel the difference to fork out > the money. > > It's treated as something that is extremely subjective. There are no measurements taken. If a man in a labcoat gives a subject a sugar pill and tells him that it will make colours appear more vivid for the next few hours, the subject will tend to see colours as being more vivid. -- Paul Anderson VE6HOP RemoveMEwackyvorlonTakeThisOuTgmail.com http://www.oldschoolhacker.com "May the electromotive force be with you."

Xiaofan Chen wrote: > Do not underestimate the psychological effect of those snail oil. Exactly. I never understood why they are not trying to enhance the placebo effect (rather than eliminate it). But on second thought, it's obvious: they wouldn't make that much money with it... The question is whether most of the pharma products are the /real/ snake oil. Applying to audio products: If someone has an "enhanced experience" (i.e. is more happy) buying such products, what's the problem? Don't tell me everything you spend your money on has an objective, in a double-blind trial verifiable reason... :) Gerhard

> These work on *magic*. Probably not. But just a few hundred years ago radio and certain other talking machines were magic. > For it to function as described is simply not even remotely possible. Probably true. From this description... "The presentation became softer, frequency transitions were more graceful and supple, and this applied across the frequency spectrum, not just the top. The tonal balance did get lighter, but this was due to a more energetic upper-midrange, rather than more treble. One ill effect: macro dynamics were slightly impacted." ...the latter two devices probably act as filters of various types. The "chip" thingy (is it a magnet?) probably works at clearing the "smudge" of the vaporized patter when the disk was "burnt". I've long wondered what happens to the substrate that was in the "pits" when a CD is burned. Anyway, it is safe to make claims of operation at (little understood areas of) the quantum level--who can refute them? <grin> Daniel

On 10/4/07, Gerhard Fiedler <spamBeGonelistsspamBeGoneconnectionbrazil.com> wrote: > > > Applying to audio products: If someone has an "enhanced experience" (i.e. > is more happy) buying such products, what's the problem? Don't tell me > everything you spend your money on has an objective, in a double-blind > trial verifiable reason... :) > Part of the issue is the cost. These products are not just hokum, they are *expensive* hokum. For example: http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/c37_e.html This lacquer sells for $300 for 50ml. Other things I've encountered where $500 wooden volume knobs. They are expensive, and they are lies. Only through knowledge of real science and real electronics can you *actually* build a good stereo system. These humbugs just serve to distract and confuse people. -- Paul Anderson VE6HOP TakeThisOuTwackyvorlonEraseMEspam_OUTgmail.com http://www.oldschoolhacker.com "May the electromotive force be with you."

--- Paul Anderson <RemoveMEwackyvorlonTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote: {Quote hidden}> On 10/4/07, Gerhard Fiedler > <listsEraseME.....connectionbrazil.com> wrote: > > > > > > Applying to audio products: If someone has an > "enhanced experience" (i.e. > > is more happy) buying such products, what's the > problem? Don't tell me > > everything you spend your money on has an > objective, in a double-blind > > trial verifiable reason... :) > > > Part of the issue is the cost. These products are > not just hokum, > they are *expensive* hokum. > > For example: > www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/c37_e.html > > This lacquer sells for $300 for 50ml. Other things > I've encountered > where $500 wooden volume knobs. > > They are expensive, and they are lies. Only through > knowledge of real > science and real electronics can you *actually* > build a good stereo > system. These humbugs just serve to distract and > confuse people. > > -- > Paul Anderson > VE6HOP > EraseMEwackyvorlongmail.com > http://www.oldschoolhacker.com > "May the electromotive force be with you." > -- What kind of audio system can we build from ready parts? John ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/

www.soundstage.com/revequip/crystalcable_ultra_pc_followup.htm One of my favorite forms of serpentine lubrication.... $4065 per two-meter power cord Of course it plugs into the same 50 year old crappy 12 GA wire in the wall, which has the same old amount of noise and distortion on it.. But somehow, magically, replace that last six feet, and: "you're going to hear your music with newfound speed and agility. They don't achieve this by somehow brightening up the sound, but rather, my ears tell me, by stripping away the fine-grained noise that rides along with the musical signal. There is less grunge and more apparent signal, giving the music a sunnier, more nimble quality." Yeah, sure..

{Quote hidden}> -----Original Message----- > From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesspam_OUTKILLspammit.edu > [RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Anderson > Sent: Friday, 5 October 2007 11:54 AM > To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. > Subject: Re: [OT] How to Get Rich selling a dummy PCB, a > ferrite choke,and a most likely empty wooden box > > On 10/4/07, Gerhard Fiedler <EraseMElistsspamspamBeGoneconnectionbrazil.com> wrote: > > > > > > Applying to audio products: If someone has an "enhanced > experience" (i.e. > > is more happy) buying such products, what's the problem? > Don't tell me > > everything you spend your money on has an objective, in a > double-blind > > trial verifiable reason... :) > > > Part of the issue is the cost. These products are not just > hokum, they are *expensive* hokum. > > For example: > www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/c37_e.html > > This lacquer sells for $300 for 50ml. Other things I've > encountered where $500 wooden volume knobs. > > They are expensive, and they are lies. Only through > knowledge of real science and real electronics can you > *actually* build a good stereo system. These humbugs just > serve to distract and confuse people. James Randi think this stuff falls into the paranormal category, so he offers people $1,000,000 if they can prove their claims. See <www.randi.org/jr/2007-10/100507web.html#i9>, <http://www.randi.org/jr/2007-09/092807reply.html#i4> & <http://www.randi.org/jr/121004science.html#11>. Those involved are far too busy picking lint out of their bellybuttons to spend half a day testing cables for a large slab of cash. The oxygen-free cables (OFC) are a perfect example of stating the obvious, you might as well add 'conducts electricity! - in both directions!' to the marketing blurb. All copper is oxygen free these days. Years ago some recycled copper turned out a bit dodgy, AFAIR. The cynic in me feels these $$$$$$ cables are a distraction to get people to buy more expensive cables in general. Old sales trick, first show the medium price range, then the overly expensive one (to which most people's reaction is 'Gah!!'), and finally the cheap-n-nasty. Most people 'bounce' back up the price list, even when the cheap-n-nasty is perfectly ok. You don't want to appear to be a tight-arse. If you read some of the comments you see people say 'well, I'll just buy the Monster Cable then, there no difference between them and the $$$$$$ ones, but there is between Monster and the rest.' Yay for Monster, last years 'overpriced cables for wankers' are now seen as legit. I'll stick with using mains cable. Tony

On 10/5/07, Alan B. Pearce <RemoveMEA.B.PearceKILLspamrl.ac.uk> wrote: > > Mind you, they must be real good value for the money, as they can correct > the acoustics of any room. 'By adding 100-500Hz white noise (!) they stop > the sound waves of similar frequencies bumping up against each other, > resulting in lost details ...' > I'm still trying to figure out how they stop the white noise from bumping in to the waves:) -- Paul Anderson VE6HOP wackyvorlonSTOPspamspam_OUTgmail.com http://www.oldschoolhacker.com "May the electromotive force be with you."

Xiaofan, On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 09:04:49 +0800, Xiaofan Chen wrote: > On 10/5/07, Hector Martin <spamBeGonehectorSTOPspamEraseMEmarcansoft.com> wrote: > >... > > I'm talking about the people who believe that a more expensive SPDIF > > cable sounds better, a $500 HDMI cable makes colors more vibrant, $400 > > power cables improve the tone balance, > > I won't buy them. But they must see/hear/feel the difference to fork out > the money. There's an old English expression: "A fool and his money are soon parted" I wish a few of them would part with it to me, but I seem to have ethics that prevent that... Dammit! :-) Cheers, Howard Winter St.Albans, England

> Description/Theory: These remarkable speakers, sold in pairs, > operate at extremely high frequencies -- much higher than the audio > band - actually in the microwave band, above 1 Gigahertz (GHz). > The Ultra Tweeters are connected to the output terminals of existing > speakers with speaker cables - preferably light, flexible ones - since > the Ultra Tweeters themselves are quite light. Ultra Tweeter principle > of operation is very unconventional. They don't generate sound in the > audio band, or even in the 20-100 KHz band like super-tweeters, > but function in the Gigahertz frequency band (normally used for > satellite and microwave communications). Ultra Tweeters organize > and improve the energy flow in signal conductors as well as the > internal wirings of speaker drivers, making the audio system perform > more efficiently and synergistically And where's their part 15 cert? :)

You may think that some wood on top of your tweeter can produce some psychological effect on some people, and that is a difficult point to discuss about. The fact that you charge $600 for that is probably easier to discuss. In fact, what I would find hard anyone supporting is that they sell a standard ferrite choke pair for $130 (see "Mini Magic Ring"). This should be illegal IMHO. Where is consumer protection office (something we pay tax for)? Can you think on some of your elderly relatives buying two chokes for $130 and still being OK? 2007/10/5, Xiaofan Chen KILLspamxiaofancspamBeGonegmail.com: > > > Do not underestimate the psychological effect of those > snail oil. Basically my point of view is not to use engineering > point of view to try to be the myth buster... > > Xiaofan > -

It sounds like they get high between the before and after tests. -- Martin K David VanHorn wrote: {Quote hidden}> http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/crystalcable_ultra_pc_followup.htm > > One of my favorite forms of serpentine lubrication.... > $4065 per two-meter power cord > > Of course it plugs into the same 50 year old crappy 12 GA wire in the > wall, which has the same old amount of noise and distortion on it.. > But somehow, magically, replace that last six feet, and: "you're > going to hear your music with newfound speed and agility. They don't > achieve this by somehow brightening up the sound, but rather, my ears > tell me, by stripping away the fine-grained noise that rides along > with the musical signal. There is less grunge and more apparent > signal, giving the music a sunnier, more nimble quality." > > Yeah, sure.. >

Martin Klingensmith wrote: > But it's supposedly an /engineered/ device, why can't I use engineering > to prove that their compact-flash-looking "quantum device" is a myth? Of course you can, but so what? There are people who shell out big bucks to rent an airplane, take off from an airport, fly around a couple of hours, just to eventually land at the same airport, not only spending their time and money on the way but also a number of externalities. There's also no discernible objective reason for that -- besides that it makes the one who does it somehow feel good. So what's the difference? (The hobby pilots may forgive me; this is just an example. There are many others -- basically most things we do for fun.) Gerhard

A lot of the people I know who do this do it to get their license or instrument rating. At least you get some thrill out of it. I understand your idea but I think a better comparison is making toilet paper out of $100 bills because "the cotton texture mixed with the finest paper pulp .." well I won't get too graphic. Anyway, to each his own. =) - Martin K Gerhard Fiedler wrote: {Quote hidden}> rent an airplane, take off from an airport, fly around a couple of hours, > just to eventually land at the same airport, not only spending their time > and money on the way but also a number of externalities. There's also no > discernible objective reason for that -- besides that it makes the one who > does it somehow feel good. So what's the difference? > > (The hobby pilots may forgive me; this is just an example. There are many > others -- basically most things we do for fun.) > > Gerhard > > > Of course you can, but so what? There are people who shell out big > bucks to

oh boy..... Gotta love the part where it "knows" how many you have treated....with....what? Holy moly Martha.....are people that....errr.....uniformed that they believe it? Friend of mine, years ago, at CES, had a room reserved where they were selling custom high end multi-thousand dollar speaker systems. Guy walks in...says..use these cables...after listening for a bit. Friend goes behind..fiddles...comes back....ahhhhh...the customer says...that sounds so much better with my expensive cables. Friend smiles....nods....and doesnt tell him he never changed the cables. Part of me laughs.... Part of me gets really annoyed.... Part of me knows....with the right marketing and hype, farmers can sell cow crap as doorstops.... I shrug my shoulders....and imagine....what can I make that can sell thousands with a 500% profit and still allow me to not have to go into hiding.... oh well..back to work...making others rich with my abilities :-) --------------------------------- Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos.

On 10/5/07, Gerhard Fiedler <EraseMElistsEraseMEconnectionbrazil.com> wrote: > > > (The hobby pilots may forgive me; this is just an example. There are many > others -- basically most things we do for fun.) > > In truth, though, there is no deception involved with the hobby pilot. He knows what he is buying, and he receives it. With these audiophile gadgets people are not getting what they think they are. They are being lied to and cheated, something much of the audiophile literature is complicit with. -- Paul Anderson VE6HOP @spam@wackyvorlon@spam@spam_OUTgmail.com http://www.oldschoolhacker.com "May the electromotive force be with you."

Paul Anderson wrote: >> (The hobby pilots may forgive me; this is just an example. There are >> many others -- basically most things we do for fun.) > > In truth, though, there is no deception involved with the hobby pilot. > He knows what he is buying, and he receives it. Probably that's the case with hobby pilots; there is usually little advertising involved. But, say, with cars? Or food? Or personal hygiene or cosmetics? Look at any advertising, check out what the implied promise is (not the explicit one) -- that is, the stuff that's not factually disprovable --, and review that. There will be few ads that won't lead to certain deception. (The disprovable stuff is probably equally meager in ads for those overpriced audio products and all other consumer items. There is usually very little of it in the ads. Try a shampoo ad, for example. Carefully crafted language that passed the "says basically nothing that can be disproven" lawyer test.) > With these audiophile gadgets people are not getting what they think they > are. They are getting a good feeling, otherwise they wouldn't buy it. That's about the same you get when you buy a <your favorite junk food> from your preferred outlet. Objectively (in terms of nutritional value), you're buying junk. You could get a much more (objectively) nutritive meal for less, sometimes much less. Some consumers will know that and buy it anyway, other won't (and some of them maybe wouldn't buy it if they knew). In any case, the junk food outlet's or chain's advertising is not much help with the issue. Nor is the Big Burger Association's literature. > They are being lied to and cheated, something much of the audiophile > literature is complicit with. Goes equally for most consumer products. Best skin care? Use only cold water and plenty of fresh air on your skin. No ad or beauty magazine will tell you that. Audiophile literature is probably written by audiophiles for audiophiles -- they write what they want to read :) If they want the good stuff about audio, they probably should read sound engineer literature. Anyway, whoever pays 130 USD for such a gimmick without serious research, acquiring some knowledge based on reproducible facts along the way, has little sympathy from me. Many people here live a month on less than that. I tend to think they simply have too much money on their hands, and if they hadn't bought this crap they'd buy some other crap. Gerhard

Ariel Rocholl wrote: > Where is consumer protection office (something we pay tax for)? I think consumer protection works only (and should only work) if there are objective claims that are not fulfilled. If there are in fact objective claims and you can show that they are not fulfilled, I don't think you have a problem sticking it to them using consumer protection means. > Can you think on some of your elderly relatives buying two chokes for > $130 [...] No. My parents wouldn't buy it -- not for technical reasons, but because they don't feel they need it. > [...] and still being OK? Well, if it were my relatives, I'd advise them against it. If they can afford to buy something obviously non-essential for 130 USD and not do any research (at least asking around among relatives to get some advise), then they either have enough money on their hands so that they effectively didn't get harmed, or they haven't learned much on their way to elderness. Anybody who feels that his 500 USD sound system isn't good enough should know that he's now in a league where he has to know some stuff to be able to spend wisely. Who doesn't know that has to learn it -- somehow. Gerhard

--- David VanHorn <TakeThisOuTmicrobrix.....TakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote: > > Umm, yeah, but hang on - these are power cables, > how they do that to the > > audio signal ???? ;))) > > What? You can't hear that difference? Man.. Too bad > about your hearing! > > VVBG! > -- Reply: dude, do you hear your baby crying? Audiophile: .................. :) John ____________________________________________________________________________________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting