Searching \ for '[OT] How do you survive as an independent consulta' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: www.piclist.com/techref/index.htm?key=how+you+survive
Search entire site for: 'How do you survive as an independent consulta'.

Exact match. Not showing close matches.
PICList Thread
'[OT] How do you survive as an independent consulta'
2007\09\26@041238 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 9/16/07, Matt Pobursky <spam_OUTpiclistTakeThisOuTspammps-design.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

This kind of experiences are really interesting. I notice that there are
quite some independent electronics consultant (mostly in US)
in the list.

How do you survive in this highly competitive world amid the trend
of out-sourcing? What are the skills (professional and personal)
required to be a successful independent consultant? What are
the challenges? I am quite curious here. ;-)


Xiaofan

2007\09\26@164422 by alan smith

picon face
I will say this....no offense to those on the list in India or the far east....

Having worked with an outsource engineering company over "there"....I was totally amazed on just how incompetent they were.  It was a baby sitting job, telling them how to do things, simple things....like adding pull-ups, and bypassing....if it wasn't straight out of the apps notes, they were totally lost.  We had a jr engineer do one piece of a design...took him one day.....took them 4 days.  Not saying they are all like that...im positive there are some very good ones, but this was the largest "ODM" there so you might expect better.

I agree....going to see more failed projects that come back, and thats good news for consultants/contractors.


     
---------------------------------
Don't let your dream ride pass you by.    Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos.

2007\09\27@001824 by Vasile Surducan

face picon face
Then you've got the wrong guy. I was working with a few very good
indian software programmers...
The first mistake you are often doing (I'm talking about the guys from
the USA) is the one you belive that always you are the best.
Unfortunately my quite long consulting experience on the US land is
telling something else. No offence, just the truth.

Vasile

On 9/26/07, alan smith <micro_eng2spamKILLspamyahoo.com> wrote:
> I will say this....no offense to those on the list in India or the far east....
>
> Having worked with an outsource engineering company over "there"....I was totally amazed on just how incompetent they were.  It was a baby sitting job, telling them how to do things, simple things....like adding pull-ups, and bypassing....if it wasn't straight out of the apps notes, they were totally lost.  We had a jr engineer do one piece of a design...took him one day.....took them 4 days.  Not saying they are all like that...im positive there are some very good ones, but this was the largest "ODM" there so you might expect better.
>
> I agree....going to see more failed projects that come back, and thats good news for consultants/contractors.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Don't let your dream ride pass you by.    Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos.
> -

2007\09\27@141841 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Wed, 2007-09-26 at 21:18 -0700, Vasile Surducan wrote:
> Then you've got the wrong guy. I was working with a few very good
> indian software programmers...

I completely agree. To say "one countries engineers are better then
anothers" is to me pretty much the same as racism. You're generalizing.

I've worked with engineers from India. Some were not the best. Some were
amazing. I've worked with engineers from Canada, some were not the best,
some were amazing. I've worked with engineers from the US, some where
not the best, some were amazing.

IMHO, judge the individual, NOT the race/country/colour of skin.

TTYL

2007\09\28@091740 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 9/27/07, Vasile Surducan <.....piclist9KILLspamspam.....gmail.com> wrote:
> Then you've got the wrong guy. I was working with a few very good
> indian software programmers...
>
> The first mistake you are often doing (I'm talking about the guys from
> the USA) is the one you belive that always you are the best.
> Unfortunately my quite long consulting experience on the US land is
> telling something else. No offence, just the truth.
>

My impression with Indian engineers are some what mixed. Some
of them are quite good and some of them are not that good.
I will say many of the software/firmware engineers are quite
good but I am less impressed with the hardware designers.
Just my personal observations and this should not be generalized.

I was told that they are many engineers in Silicon Valley. I
was told that IC kind of stands for Indian (good at
software/firmware) and greater China (good at hardware).
I am not so sure how true it is since I have not been to Silicon
Valley yet. I was also told that they are many good software
engineers in China but as a team they lose out to Indian
engineers due to lack of software project management talents.
I am not so sure if all these are true since I am in a different
industry but I know my youngest brother is certainly a good
software developer for Unix/Linux. My other younger brother
is also a good software developer under Windows and he
is now learning some Linux programming as well.

So far all the US engineers and German engineers I worked
with are all pretty good. I also worked with quite some students
and trainee engineers from Germany in my previous job
and they were certainly excellent.

Xiaofan

2007\09\28@092852 by Dario Greggio

face picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:

> So far all the US engineers and German engineers I worked
> with are all pretty good. I also worked with quite some students
> and trainee engineers from Germany in my previous job
> and they were certainly excellent.

Italians do it better
:-))))

(just joking, of course...)

--
Ciao, Dario
--
ADPM Synthesis sas - Torino
--
http://www.adpm.tk

2007\09\28@112953 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 9/28/07, Dario Greggio <EraseMEadpm.tospam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTinwind.it> wrote:
> Xiaofan Chen wrote:
>
> > So far all the US engineers and German engineers I worked
> > with are all pretty good. I also worked with quite some students
> > and trainee engineers from Germany in my previous job
> > and they were certainly excellent.
>
> Italians do it better
> :-))))
>

Seriously I met one very bright students from Italy (University of
Padua or Università degli Studi di Padova) last time. And I
also met a professor from Italy and he is really an EMC expert.

In previous job, I did not worked with the R&D groups in
UK(P+F UK) and Italy (P+F Elcon) but I know they are
quite good in Analog design judging from the schematics I read.
Not many people are good at analog now...

Xiaofan

2007\09\28@115541 by John Chung

picon face

> My impression with Indian engineers are some what
> mixed. Some
> of them are quite good and some of them are not that
> good.
> I will say many of the software/firmware engineers
> are quite
> good but I am less impressed with the hardware
> designers.
> Just my personal observations and this should not be
> generalized.
>


 Basically I look at the character of the person when
I work with them. I try not to generalize  attributes
on nationality. Software Engineers from India are
okay. However they tend to follow best practices which
is kind of good and bad at times. They certainly know
the latest of software which include frameworks and
other exotic technologies.... I give them thumbs up
for implementing new stuff...

John



     ____________________________________________________________________________________
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz

2007\09\29@041528 by Forrest W Christian

flavicon
face
Herbert Graf wrote:
> IMHO, judge the individual, NOT the race/country/colour of skin.

I agree, however, there is something to be said for some
generalizations.  It usually comes down to a cultural thing.   For
instance, it can be said that Americans (in the USA context) are a bunch
of arrogant money-hungry people who speak only one language.   Yes, I'm
American.   Yes, a lot of American's don't fit this mold, but because of
our culture of Capitalism we do tend to think a lot about how to get
more money.  It's both a strength and weakness depending on how you look
at it.

I was recently visiting Canada and was in an Italian restaurant.  There
was a sign up which said:

Heaven is where
the police are British,
the chefs Italian,
the mechanics German,
the lovers French
and its all organized by the Swiss.

Hell is where
the police are German,
the chefs British,
the mechanics French,
the lovers Swiss
and its all organized by the Italians.

Understanding cultural strengths and weaknesses are important.  Culture
plays a very important part of understanding others in other countries.
 Some cultures are very good at being hard workers, others have very
little work ethic.  Some cultures are good and producing very high
quality products.  Others are good at producing cheap.  Are there
differences inside a country, and with individuals?  Definately.  As
long as you understand that the generalizations are exactly that... just
generalizations, they can be a useful tool.

An example:

Want Cheap circuit boards with reasonable quality?  Look to China and
some of the Pacific Rim, not the States.  China is good at cheap.  Want
high quality PCB's with consistent quality?  Look at North America.
Are there cheap PCB manufacturers in the states? Probably (well, maybe
not *that cheap*).   Are there high quality PCB manufacturers in China?
Definately - but there are far more reasonable quality and dirt cheap
PCB manufacturers.

With that in mind, I would never consider judging a *person* based on
their culture.  That is just plain wrong.  But judging an individual is
a whole different thing than making generalizations about cultural
strengths and weaknessess - especially when the generalizations can be
backed up with facts.

-forrest

2007\09\29@144605 by Cedric Chang

flavicon
face
>
> On Sep 29, 2007, at 2:13 AM, Forrest W Christian wrote:
>
> Herbert Graf wrote:
>> IMHO, judge the individual, NOT the race/country/colour of skin.
>
> I agree, however, there is something to be said for some
> generalizations.  It usually comes down to a cultural thing.   For
> instance, it can be said that Americans (in the USA context) are a  
> bunch
> of arrogant money-hungry people who speak only one language.   Yes,  
> I'm
> American.   Yes, a lot of American's don't fit this mold, but  
> because of
> our culture of Capitalism we do tend to think a lot about how to get
> more money.  It's both a strength and weakness depending on how you  
> look
> at it.

In the long run it is a weakness to generalize about nationalities  
since it retards the advancement of the human race to level two which  
is necessary in order for humans to survive themselves.  The best of  
each nationality are equivalent and the worst are equivalent and  
sadly, the rest don't really matter.
Cedric

2007\09\29@184507 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Sat, 2007-09-29 at 12:46 -0600, Cedric Chang wrote:
> > I agree, however, there is something to be said for some
> > generalizations.  It usually comes down to a cultural thing.   For
> > instance, it can be said that Americans (in the USA context) are a  
> > bunch
> > of arrogant money-hungry people who speak only one language.   Yes,  
> > I'm
> > American.   Yes, a lot of American's don't fit this mold, but  
> > because of
> > our culture of Capitalism we do tend to think a lot about how to get
> > more money.  It's both a strength and weakness depending on how you  
> > look
> > at it.
>
> In the long run it is a weakness to generalize about nationalities  
> since it retards the advancement of the human race to level two which  
> is necessary in order for humans to survive themselves.  The best of  
> each nationality are equivalent and the worst are equivalent and  
> sadly, the rest don't really matter.

I'm always fascinated (and sometimes frightened) how humans in general
(hehe) always like to pigeonhole everything they encounter. Everything
is a type of "something" to humans, humans themselves included.

The fact that a human just happens to be born in a particular location
seems to have VERY large meanings to some people. Some people just
aren't capable of judging a person on the merits of that individual,
they have to include that person's race/colour/nationality/etc (and in
extreme cases the race/colour/nationality/etc is the ONLY thing the
person will use to judge the other).

How many conflicts in history have resulted because of this
narrow-mindedness?

Despite how "advanced" we westerns feel we are over the rest of the
world, we still have a LONG way to go...

TTYL

2007\09\30@110608 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Cedric Chang wrote:

> The best of each nationality are equivalent and the worst are equivalent
> and sadly, the rest don't really matter.

I'm not sure why you say that. I think that, to the contrary, it's this
rest that matters; it's the majority that drives how things are and are
being done. Which ones are considered the "best" and "worst" is determined
by the measuring stick of the majority, so even that is driven by it; it
chooses the "best" and "worst" (and FWIW the representatives) according to
its liking.

IMO progress doesn't show neither at the tip nor at the end, it shows in
the middle.

Gerhard

2007\09\30@111554 by Cedric Chang

flavicon
face
{Quote hidden}

Was that last sentence made tongue-in-cheek ???
Cedric

2007\09\30@115750 by Cedric Chang

flavicon
face
{Quote hidden}

IMHO the 80 percent in the middle follow each other herd-like,  
deviating little
in their thought patterns.  The "best" 10 percent create new  
paradigms.  The
"worst " 10 percent exploit the herd.

And I imagine , Gerhard , that you are most likely one of the better  
10 percenters.

Cedric

2007\09\30@145709 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Sun, 2007-09-30 at 09:15 -0600, Cedric Chang wrote:
> > Despite how "advanced" we westerns feel we are over the rest of the
> > world, we still have a LONG way to go...
> >
> > TTYL
>
> Was that last sentence made tongue-in-cheek ???

No. Many westerns feel they are "better" then "others", statements like
"my country is the best in the world" is common. Sad, but true. TTYL

2007\09\30@152416 by Martin Klingensmith

face
flavicon
face
IMO saying "my country is the best in the world" has nothing to do with
the race/other generalizations made about the residents of said country.
Having national pride isn't such a bad thing.

Note that neither of us said anything about using nationalism as motive.
--
Martin K

Herbert Graf wrote:
> On Sun, 2007-09-30 at 09:15 -0600, Cedric Chang wrote:
>>> Despite how "advanced" we westerns feel we are over the rest of the
>>> world, we still have a LONG way to go...
>>>
>>> TTYL
>> Was that last sentence made tongue-in-cheek ???
>
> No. Many westerns feel they are "better" then "others", statements like
> "my country is the best in the world" is common. Sad, but true. TTYL
>


'[OT] How do you survive as an independent consulta'
2007\10\01@054756 by Alan B. Pearce
face picon face
> I'm always fascinated (and sometimes frightened) how humans in general
> (hehe) always like to pigeonhole everything they encounter. Everything
> is a type of "something" to humans, humans themselves included.
>
> The fact that a human just happens to be born in a particular location
> seems to have VERY large meanings to some people. Some people just
> aren't capable of judging a person on the merits of that individual,
> they have to include that person's race/colour/nationality/etc (and in
> extreme cases the race/colour/nationality/etc is the ONLY thing the
> person will use to judge the other).
>
> How many conflicts in history have resulted because of this
> narrow-mindedness?

I am not sure that it is being born in a particular place, but a combination
of national ancestry and education.

I have worked with colleagues of mainland European nationalities, and
serviced equipment made in Europe, and the method thinking that went into
the design process was definitely different to US or British thinking.

2007\10\01@062418 by wouter van ooijen

face picon face
> The fact that a human just happens to be born in a
> particular location
> seems to have VERY large meanings to some people. Some people just
> aren't capable of judging a person on the merits of that
> individual,

'born in a particular location' is just one example. Color of your hair,
language or accent, sex, sexual preference, religion (or absence
thereof), political prefrence (or lack), height, weight, eyesight,
shoes. For certain people every distinguising factor can be enough to
group you into "those others" which will be on the receiving end of some
nasty things. Been there, received my share, and (to my shame) been on
the other side once or twice too. This is more common and open among
children, but when adults or nations indulge in this behaviour they have
much 'heavier' things they can to to the other side...

The world would be beautiful without humans, but who would be there to
see it?

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu




2007\10\01@093607 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Alan B. Pearce wrote:

> I have worked with colleagues of mainland European nationalities, and
> serviced equipment made in Europe, and the method thinking that went
> into the design process was definitely different to US or British
> thinking.

I tend to agree (even though I can't quite put my finger on what exactly is
different), but I also think that it's difficult to know whether you (or me
:) think that it is different because you know it is from somewhere else --
in other words, whether you would perceive the same sort of difference if
you knew (or thought) that this was a US or UK design. Double blind trials
are not for nothing... :)

Gerhard

2007\10\01@094014 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Cedric Chang wrote:

> IMHO the 80 percent in the middle follow each other herd-like, deviating
> little in their thought patterns.  The "best" 10 percent create new
> paradigms.  The "worst " 10 percent exploit the herd.

I think that is a common perception, but one question is whether it is not
that common that it is simply how we perceive others: towards 10% we have a
positive attitude, towards 10% we have a negative attitude, and about the
rest we don't care much at all. If that's true, then we both are part of
the middle 80% here :)

And I still think it is what moves those 80% what matters -- at least what
matters for how things are being done. Them being "mainstream" is nothing
contrary to that; mainstream means nothing more than "this is how things
generally work".

But maybe we started from different meanings of "matter" here.

Gerhard

2007\10\01@095759 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
Human minds are adept at categorizing things, and this is done
primarily so we don't have to process too much information, as well as
a coping scheme for when we run into situations we have no pattern
for.  Further, by placing ourselves in a particular category, we know
that in general other's will treat us and react to us in a consistant
manner.

So yes, gross generallizations are exactly that - gross.  But they are
useful and as one gets to know an individual the categories become
more distinct and finely grained.

But I would argue that to force humans to never generalize is actually
counter-productive at best.

I currently believe it's best to allow the brain to do its thing, but
moderate one's output (speach, actions, etc) such that one maintains
the appearance of non-judgement.

-Adam

On 9/29/07, Herbert Graf <mailinglist3spamspam_OUTfarcite.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Moving in southeast Michigan? Buy my house: http://ubasics.com/house/

Interested in electronics? Check out the projects at http://ubasics.com

Building your own house? Check out http://ubasics.com/home/

2007\10\01@115946 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Oct 1, 2007, at 4:23 AM, wouter van ooijen wrote:

> 'born in a particular location'

Born in a particular location has nothing to do with anything.
"Raised within a certain culture, educated in a school system
with certain priorities, and experienced in an industry operating
with certain values and quirks" may have a lot to do with many
things.  Americans, for instance, I think have more than their
share of the "question/challenge authority" meme, and I can see
both its value and its drawbacks (and can well imagine just how
badly it might conflict with the values of other cultures.)

BillW

2007\10\01@132532 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
M. Adam Davis wrote:

> But I would argue that to force humans to never generalize is actually
> counter-productive at best.

Science and technology are prime examples for generalizations. (And that
includes the scientific part of medicine, for example.)

Now whether they are useful may be debatable :)

Gerhard

2007\10\02@013406 by soliton

picon face
I think if we face another greater different perhaps from alien from
other planet, we all human on earth will then be able to overcome our
different. We will call ourselves humans and others as alien :) But
since there still no exact proof of threatening from alien, we as
usual find every little different among ourselves, and do some fight
every once a while just to make sure we still have anything to do, to
fight for :D


--
soliton
------------------------------------
Diskusi di http://phimega.com/forums

2007\10\02@194622 by Cedric Chang

flavicon
face
{Quote hidden}

Different definitions of "work" as well.  The 80% support long term  
unworkable
solutions and also solutions that bash individuals.
Cedric

2007\10\02@194915 by Cedric Chang

flavicon
face
>
> On Oct 1, 2007, at 9:56 AM, William Chops Westfield wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 1, 2007, at 4:23 AM, wouter van ooijen wrote:
>
>> 'born in a particular location'
>
> Born in a particular location has nothing to do with anything.
> "Raised within a certain culture, educated in a school system
> with certain priorities, and experienced in an industry operating
> with certain values and quirks" may have a lot to do with many
> things.  Americans, for instance, I think have more than their
> share of the "question/challenge authority" meme, and I can see
> both its value and its drawbacks (and can well imagine just how
> badly it might conflict with the values of other cultures.)
>
> BillW

From my perspective living in America, I do not see a lot of the
question/challenge  meme.  Maybe I am too far to the left/right/
ceiling/floor
to evaluate properly.
Cedric

2007\10\15@110430 by alan smith

picon face
we are the outsource  :-)

Xiaofan Chen <@spam@xiaofancKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:  How do you survive in this highly competitive world amid the trend
of out-sourcing? What are the skills (professional and personal)
required to be a successful independent consultant? What are
the challenges? I am quite curious here. ;-)


Xiaofan

More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 2007 , 2008 only
- Today
- New search...