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'[OT] Hiring Trends (was: Re: [EE] Programming lang'
2007\10\11@174600 by Vitaliy

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face
Nate Duehr wrote:
>> Our company is having a very hard time hiring good technical people
>> (software developers, graphics designers, web developers), and I feel
>> like
>> I'm wasting money on Monster and Careerbuilder.
>
> In my opinion, the pendulum is just swinging back and forth, like it
> always has.

I guess we haven't been in business long enough. What is the normal period
of this pendulum, based on historical data?

> Many people are disillusioned with engineering and technical fields again.
>
> Those that were in it for the money and not because they enjoyed the
> work are virtually gone, and the supply of fresh youngsters is low.
>
> Technical jobs are not "in fashion" like they were in the 90's.

True. Seven years ago, the university I went to had full classrooms (up to
40 people). This year, they sold the two-story building and are renting the
top floor back from the owner.

> Companies also expect miracles, and want 10+ year people only.

10+ of what?

{Quote hidden}

I believe we offer competitive salaries. Would you say that $20/hr plus
benefits & paid time off is too little to pay a graphic designer?

I think that for interns, it's fair to pay what they can make working
part-time elsewhere (Pizza Hut, Fed Ex, etc) -- in fact, many are willing to
take a pay cut, so they can get the experience. At my last job while in
college, I was making $9.50/hr working for a company that refurbished
industrial control equipment. I know another guy that was several semesters
ahead of me, who making $8/hr helping put together various electronic
gadgets (responsibilities ranged from soldering to testing to PCB layout).

I'd be curious what the companies pay for various technical positions
nowadays. Unfortunately, most of the time the salary is not listed in
on-line job postings.

[snip]
>> Please help me better spend my employment ad budget. :)
>
> Spend it on training for an ethusiastic youngster who has the raw talent
> and capabilities to do what you want done?  :-)

And in practice, that means...?.  :)  Where do you find this young genius?

I've been trying to get in touch with the dean of Electronics & Computer
Engineering at a local technical college, to see if we can sponsor one or a
few student projects. I've also been thinking of conducting workshops on
things they didn't teach me in college (making PCBs, soldering, iterative
project management).

Anyone got any other ideas?

Vitaliy

2007\10\11@191147 by Stephen R Phillips

picon face

--- Vitaliy <spam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTspammaksimov.org> wrote:

> I guess we haven't been in business long enough. What is the normal
> period
> of this pendulum, based on historical data?

Well tech was popular mid 80's by early 90's it wasn't then mid 90's it
became popular etc.  The problem is both cultural and fad oriented.
People want money, not to do something that they enjoy, that is the
cultural aspect.  I see these people as kind of disgusting but I've
seen a few turn into decent people and engineers (not many though in
both cases).  Fad aspect is "Oh cool I wanna be a rock start" type
thinking, then they are just nasty when they get the job they were
working for and aren't happy with anything at work home is there escape
from work and they are sure what they want to do suddenly.
> True. Seven years ago, the university I went to had full classrooms
> (up to
> 40 people). This year, they sold the two-story building and are
> renting the
> top floor back from the owner.

People should not go into a tech field if they want money fame or
power, they should go into one because they like that sort of thing and
enjoy using there brain for long hours and trying to solve very
difficult problems (sadly those aren't technical usually at least
that's my experience).

> 10+ of what?

Of work experience, I forget I have that these days, I was always
about, I need more experience. Like always most of the difficulty with
recruiting new people is getting someone who is willing to work for
there pay and is flexible in how they look at things.  Be a stiff and
you will be dead for jobs (bad pun).

There is a big vacume, in terms of experienced people because the early
90's killed off a lot of would be engineers. It took me 2 years to get
a half engineering job back then.
> I'd be curious what the companies pay for various technical positions
> nowadays. Unfortunately, most of the time the salary is not listed in
> on-line job postings.

Some love salary histories, those companies who ask for those I
generally don't waste time with.  To me it means "we want this but...
we won't pay for it" they want to see everything up front and not let
the person who might be interested know anything.  In summary they want
something for nothing and don't realize that most people will know that
who are worth hiring.

I've sent my resume to companies without a single reply from email or
mail, then had a head hunter call me (2 weeks later) who was looking
for the same position, and found me by looking through several
different job places.  What that tells me many companies suffer from HR
that are inexperienced with hiring technical people and really are
terrified to try so they farm it out when they get desperate (IE the
manager is smacking them).

I would think that it might be good to discus salary after the job
interview .. asking for a salary history is something you should do
after the second interview generally.  Salary histories mean nothing
really I've always been paid by job difficulty and expected work.

> And in practice, that means...?.  :)  Where do you find this young
> genius?

They definitely don't grow on trees.  Seldom will you find a genius as
well.  I think one might want to be really carefully with a 'genius',
as many of the ones I've met can be a real problem to get things done
and to work with other people.
{Quote hidden}

That's sounds like a good idea, get them interested in you and the
company you work for.  Without such relationships you will be hard
pressed to find people who will trust you and you can trust.  Seriously
people forget employees aren't a box of washers, but they are a
relationship.  Without that relationship getting a good worker and them
getting a good job will be very difficult.  

> Anyone got any other ideas?
>
Apart from trying to spend a bit of time with would be engineers?  Look
for experienced engineers in the area you are in spend time talking
with them build a network of people who might be able to direct good
people your way (and visa versa). This is something many HR departments
DON'T do in companies.  Most times they just help people with benefits
and look for BAD employees. They do so VERY well to the extent they
miss a lot of GOOD potential employees.  Finding mature fresh grads is
a bit difficult these days so you might have to deal with childish
thinking from them.

I think spending time at the local university or college is a good
idea. First it gives would be technical people REAL experience with
dealing with the REAL people in any tech field.  There are a lot of
things that school will not tech you, such as what happens when you
don't do your job, you come to work late, you don't listen well (to
your boss or co workers), because you are in a hurry. These are all
extremely important in getting your job done quickly and without a lot
of mistakes.  Learn from other peoples mistakes I always tell new
people, don't repeat them.

Second you can find people who might be good employees and stear them
down a path that is going to get them what they need (what they want is
less an issue). Also it allows them to know who to go to (IE you or
someone at your company) when they need a job or are graduating soon.
They will trust your company more simply because they know you, and
might also interview much better since they will have an idea of what
your company does. (Clued in is a good thing)

Stephen


     
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2007\10\11@224600 by Herbert Graf

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On Thu, 2007-10-11 at 14:44 -0700, Vitaliy wrote:
> I guess we haven't been in business long enough. What is the normal period
> of this pendulum, based on historical data?

The only number I've experience with was Elec vs. Comp enrollment at my
University, if it's of any interest.

When I started, the distribution for 1st year was about 80 Elec vs. 180
Comp. 5 years later those numbers had reversed. I found that
interesting.

TTYL

2007\10\12@043845 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>> Companies also expect miracles, and want 10+ year people only.
>
>10+ of what?

experience in technology that has been around only 2 years.

2007\10\12@105741 by alan smith

picon face
And this is why....there is always a need for consultants.  Companies that can't afford to pay a salary for a 10+ yr experienced engineer (85K+ at least) can easily justify between $50 to $100/hr person who can actually solve the problems, design what they need and keep them in business.  It might cost them 20K to 30K a year for this person, but thats less than the full time salary and they don't have to worry about all the overhead costs involved.  I'm seeing that more and more.  One guy told me the other day his worst fear is for me to call him up and tell him I'm no longer interested in doing work for him...kinda nice to know I'm appreciated!

Vitaliy <.....spamKILLspamspam@spam@maksimov.org> wrote: Nate Duehr wrote:
>> Our company is having a very hard time hiring good technical people
>> (software developers, graphics designers, web developers), and I feel
>> like
>> I'm wasting money on Monster and Careerbuilder.
>
> In my opinion, the pendulum is just swinging back and forth, like it
> always has.

I guess we haven't been in business long enough. What is the normal period
of this pendulum, based on historical data?

> Many people are disillusioned with engineering and technical fields again.
>
> Those that were in it for the money and not because they enjoyed the
> work are virtually gone, and the supply of fresh youngsters is low.
>
> Technical jobs are not "in fashion" like they were in the 90's.

True. Seven years ago, the university I went to had full classrooms (up to
40 people). This year, they sold the two-story building and are renting the
top floor back from the owner.

> Companies also expect miracles, and want 10+ year people only.

10+ of what?

{Quote hidden}

I believe we offer competitive salaries. Would you say that $20/hr plus
benefits & paid time off is too little to pay a graphic designer?

I think that for interns, it's fair to pay what they can make working
part-time elsewhere (Pizza Hut, Fed Ex, etc) -- in fact, many are willing to
take a pay cut, so they can get the experience. At my last job while in
college, I was making $9.50/hr working for a company that refurbished
industrial control equipment. I know another guy that was several semesters
ahead of me, who making $8/hr helping put together various electronic
gadgets (responsibilities ranged from soldering to testing to PCB layout).

I'd be curious what the companies pay for various technical positions
nowadays. Unfortunately, most of the time the salary is not listed in
on-line job postings.

[snip]
>> Please help me better spend my employment ad budget. :)
>
> Spend it on training for an ethusiastic youngster who has the raw talent
> and capabilities to do what you want done?  :-)

And in practice, that means...?.  :)  Where do you find this young genius?

I've been trying to get in touch with the dean of Electronics & Computer
Engineering at a local technical college, to see if we can sponsor one or a
few student projects. I've also been thinking of conducting workshops on
things they didn't teach me in college (making PCBs, soldering, iterative
project management).

Anyone got any other ideas?

Vitaliy

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