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'[OT] Grand Canyon'
2007\07\25@124109 by Vasile Surducan

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Hi,

There is any piclister here located in Arizona which can help me a bit ?
I want to see Grand Canion with my eyes. I have reserved three days from a
very busy schedule for this purpose. My intention is flying from NY to
Las Vegas and find a local bus to Grand Canyon / Marble Canyon.
Will be very usefull if someone could give me some indications about
which is the most beautiful place to visit on the Grand Canyon and how
could I reach there with bus from Las Vegas (maybe there is a better
route from Flagstaff or Williams but I don't know if there is any
airport in the neighborhood and explanations below aren't very clear
for me ).

www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/directions_n_rim.htm
http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/directions.htm

thank you in advance,
Vasile

2007\07\25@130052 by Larry G. Nelson Sr.

picon face
I did Grand Canyon and Sedona and went from Phoenix. I have done it before the Masters conference with my family and a few years before on the Sunday after the Masters.

Larry Nelson Sr


---- Vasile Surducan <spam_OUTpiclist9TakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> --

2007\07\25@130545 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Vasile Surducan wrote:
> Hi,
>
> There is any piclister here located in Arizona which can help me a bit ?
> I want to see Grand Canion with my eyes. I have reserved three days from a
> very busy schedule for this purpose. My intention is flying from NY to
> Las Vegas and find a local bus to Grand Canyon / Marble Canyon.
> Will be very usefull if someone could give me some indications about
> which is the most beautiful place to visit on the Grand Canyon and how
> could I reach there with bus from Las Vegas (maybe there is a better
> route from Flagstaff or Williams but I don't know if there is any
> airport in the neighborhood and explanations below aren't very clear
> for me ).
>
> www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/directions_n_rim.htm
> http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/directions.htm
>
> thank you in advance,
> Vasile
>  
I live in Southern Arizona but I have been to Grand Canyon several times
recently.
It is truly a memorable experience; trust me, you'll never forget it.

You can easily take a tourist bus from Las Vegas (about 50mi each way). Even
Boulder Dam (crossing into AZ from las vegas) is memorable, but after
911 there
are security restrictions to cross over. For awhile, there were machine
gun nests
on both sides, but they are gone now.

The best views are from the southern side. There is a wonderful hotel
and restaurant
near the viewing places. They are rustic cabins, very cute, but staying
is not necessary.
The Canyon view itself is so awesome, little else will matter; I
actually shake when I
look over Grand Canyon. While you ARE out west, there is a cool draft
from the
Canyon, and you may be cold. Even if it is 100F in Las Vegas, I'd take a
WARM
sweater to the Canyon.

There are airplane rides, and there WAS a helicopter ride as well, but
several crashes
may have stopped that. You can take a horseback ride down to the
Colorado River,
but it takes all day; you need to be able to stay on his back all the
way down and back
up; many people cannot. (I'm one.)

Be careful of those casinos. They are addicting.

--Bob Axtell

2007\07\25@144446 by Steve Baldwin

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Vasile,

We flew to the Canyon from LV earlier this year and stayed overnight. We
went through scenic.com. They picked us up from the hotel, we stayed 5
minutes walk from the canyon edge and saw a sunrise and sunset. You
have the option of staying or coming back the same day. In March, they are
right about taking something warm. It snowed.

If you don't fly in, you'll be missing out on just how big that thing is. It just
keeps coming and coming and coming. The sunrise/set colours are great,
but the flight is the most memorable part.

Steve.

PS. We'll be going back. We need to see it from the bottom now.


2007\07\26@020653 by Nate Duehr

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On Jul 25, 2007, at 10:41 AM, Vasile Surducan wrote:

> Hi,
>
> There is any piclister here located in Arizona which can help me a  
> bit ?
> I want to see Grand Canion with my eyes. I have reserved three days  
> from a
> very busy schedule for this purpose. My intention is flying from NY to
> Las Vegas and find a local bus to Grand Canyon / Marble Canyon.

I live in Colorado, so no direct Arizona-ly knowledge here, but I can  
offer some opinions that might help.

As others have mentioned, many tourist busses depart the LV area and  
travel to the Grand Canyon.  You can find them easily through just  
about any hotel information desk or concierge.  There's flyers  
everywhere, but the casinos really do try to put them somewhat out of  
the way, since they'd like you to stick around and lose money to them!

You may see options of the North Rim, or the South Rim.  South is the  
larger "tourist" spot and most of the busses and things go there.  
It's a great view.  North used to be the more rugged and harder to  
access of the two, but it's been a few years since I've been down  
there, and don't know what may have changed.  I haven't been to the  
North Rim.

> Will be very usefull if someone could give me some indications about
> which is the most beautiful place to visit on the Grand Canyon and how
> could I reach there with bus from Las Vegas (maybe there is a better
> route from Flagstaff or Williams but I don't know if there is any
> airport in the neighborhood and explanations below aren't very clear
> for me ).

The whole thing is beautiful and breathtakingly big.  Sometimes the  
tourist crowds can be a little overwhelming, but everyone's generally  
there doing the same thing... standing and staring... and watching  
that the kids don't wander over a cliff, if they have the ankle-
biters along for the trip.  :-)

I would also second the comments about seeing it from the air if time/
budget allow.  Scenic has been around a long time, and since someone  
else mentioned them, I remembered them also.  They're a good choice.  
(Of course, if you have folks that get easily car-sick, light/small  
aircraft rides may not be a good idea.  Early morning is best for the  
least bumps/turbulence, as the desert creates its own low-level  
turbulence and thermals later in the day.)  There's nothing like  
seeing it from above to see how big it is.  Same thing with the big  
reservoirs and other parks... Bryce Canyon is absolutely amazing from  
the air.  My wife and I ended up taking a Cessna 172 flight over  
Bryce, Lake Powell, and other local area attractions once because  
Bryce was a planned stopping point, and they had a rare (and strange)  
closure of the campground that year due to an outbreak of Bubonic  
Plague in the rodent population.  They decided to clear the rodents  
and keep the people out for a couple of weeks that summer, and  
well... we were pulling the trailer and headed that general direction  
before we found out.  So we flew over it from the airport at the town  
at the south end of Lake Powell, just so we could say we'd still seen  
it that year.  (It didn't hurt that I'm a Private Pilot, and I'll  
gladly accept ANY excuse to get up in a light aircraft, even if  
someone else is doing the flying!)

Speaking of the tourist flights, the comments about the possible  
cancellation of flights is unfounded.  The FAA has had to restrict  
over-flights to certain areas and routes, for both noise and safety  
reasons.  (Similar to some areas near waterfalls in Hawaii), due to  
flights having safety issues with mid-air and near-mid-air  
collisions, 20-30 years ago.  The flights also tend to avoid flying  
low enough in certain areas to keep from "bothering" the masses  
looking on from below with that "horrible airplane noise"... (that's  
the sound of BEAUTY, what are they TALKING about!?  GRIN...)

30+ years ago, aircraft flew down INSIDE the canyon, which probably  
wasn't safe or smart (but certain small aircraft used back then could  
land on some of the sandbars in the Colorado River, if they had to...  
most tourist flights are flown in fairly large -- but still less than  
19 passenger, since 20 pax requires a flight attendant -- aircraft)

Generally the Grand Canyon tourist flight business is busy and  
competitive, because it's such an amazing way to see things there.  
But you do need to also see it from "normal" human height too... at  
the rim somewhere.  So time can get short, if you're attempting to  
see a lot of it.

Also, if you had more time, there are day long, and multiple day long  
trips down into the canyon via mule/donkey and hiking which are rough  
on out-of-shape tourists, but friends who have made that type of trek  
have always said they appreciated it.  Looking up at the rim from  
below is a completely different perspective (feeling small?) then  
looking down from the top (wondering where the bottom is, and only  
seeing a small ribbon of silvery reflected light from the massive  
Colorado River below).

The entire desert Southwest is one of my favorite places to visit on  
Earth.  Other sites to behold include Bryce Canyon National Park,  
Arches National Monument, Zion National Park, Capitol Reef National  
Monument, and other State and more "local" parks, most of which are  
outside of your time/money range, but just for reference... if you  
can ever make it back.  Pink Sand Dunes State Park in Utah was  
cool... red sedimentary rocks (iron in the rock makes it red) when  
torn apart by wind and water make bright pink sand dunes... and then  
people on ATV's drive around on them.  Very surreal.

Sadly, the best way to enjoy the desert Southwest in the U.S. is  
probably via having a tow vehicle and towed camper, or RV type  
equipment and driving it... and spending a lot of time.  I had the  
luxury once of a full two weeks plus end-capping weekends, driving  
from home in Colorado throughout the area, down through Four Corners  
(the corners of four States touch in one spot and you can "stand in  
four states", always a great goofy start to such a trip), to Lake  
Powell, on to the flight over a number of the sights (as mentioned  
above), over to Zion National Park, and then finishing off in Capitol  
Reef National Monument.  Arches was last on the list and got "bumped"  
but we've been there since then, since it's "closer to home"... we  
ended up passing out in a hotel room in Grand Junction, CO on the way  
home to Denver... we had had enough camping at that point... and the  
camper sat quietly behind the Jeep in the parking lot that night.  
Then a leisurely drive over the Continental Divide back on very  
familiar road and territory to head on home over the Rockies, with a  
stop for ice cream in Vail, if I remember correctly.  Best trip ever.

And I haven't had two solid weeks of vacation since then, over 10  
years ago.  Sad, huh?  I hate the U.S.'s idea of "vacation time" at  
almost every employer... if you stay for many years with one  
employer, you're lucky to earn a month off a year... whereas  
Europeans and Aussie friends brag of two month "holidays"... oh I  
wish... a REAL vacation would be one where your boss HAS to assign  
everything you do to someone else, because his business will fail  
while you're gone, if he doesn't.  And a real vacation doesn't  
include catching up on 500-1000 e-mails with real tasks that no one  
else bothered to do while you were gone, when you get back, and  
trying to figure it all out.  Your e-mail inbox would be FORWARDED  
magically away while you were out.  (I'll keep dreaming of that day.)

Next year, though... Hawaii... and I'm taking every single day off  
I've accrued and scrimped and saved to go enjoy it... and laughing if  
they recommend I carry my cell phone.

Mexico in 2001 for 6 days/5 nights wasn't bad either, and the cell  
phone would have worked, but I said it didn't.  :-) The "all-
inclusive" trip we took, including the bar tab would have been  
expensive if we hadn't taken FULL advantage of that open bar... for a  
whole day... in the swimming pool... sitting on underwater  
barstools!  (GRIN)... Now THAT was an experience!  Strangely that  
trip was in October of 1991 (right after September 11th, of course)  
and people were still feeling like talking to strangers, about any  
and every topic, and a day at a pool bar with libations and good  
conversation with 20-30 complete strangers will probably never happen  
again to me in my lifetime.  Was incredibly interesting and  
refreshing.  Wish we'd all kept that attitude, but it's faded.

A cruise for 4 days, 3 nights out of Tampa, FL to Cozumel in 2004 was  
good too... very different than the first Mexico trip... cruises are  
quite a different way to see the world, or at least a lot of water...  
and eat some really good food if you choose the right cruise line...  
and see some chintzy on-board entertainment... late night comedians  
are the best, after half the ship has already gone to bed... the  
jokes are more "truthful", shall we say, and the crowd is really into  
it.  Seeing the same guy later on Comedy Central was funny, too...  
"Hey honey, isn't that the guy from the cruise?"

This year, just a short driving trip to Mt. Rushmore, in South  
Dakota.  We can do it over a long weekend with only a few days of  
official "vacation time" burnt, so we can stash them away for  
Hawaii.  Never seen the big heads.  :-)

And then back home to the work grind, stashing away whatever we can  
to try for an early retirement, and with a little luck, enough health  
and money to really travel ... a lot more.  The world is  
interesting.  Telecommunications support/design is about as boring as  
it gets.  (GRIN)  And cubicles, should be spelled cubi-cell and were  
created by Satan himself, right after "Team Meetings".

--
Nate Duehr
.....nateKILLspamspam@spam@natetech.com

2007\07\27@113549 by alan smith

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Or...for another fun experiance....take the train from Williams to the south rim.
     
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2007\07\27@120914 by Russell McMahon

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> Or...for another fun experiance....take the train from Williams to
> the south rim.

I don't know what time and $ are available.

But, if you can manage the cost, and it may not be vastly expensive,
then hiring a car for a day (or two) will give you vastly more
flexibility. If there are several people travelling then the car cost
per person decreases as you fit more in.

If you have the time and the wish to do so ask further and I can tell
you a location near Flagstaff where you can camp overnight at no
charge. No facilities but very pretty and an accepted camping area. We
were directed to it by the most helpful staff of the Flagstaff IHOP.
Chances are you are not equipped for that.

So - IF you have a car and 2 days available (or one day and are
prepared to do a fair bit of travelling in one day) then consider also
seeing Meteor Crater. From memory it is about 1 hours drive beyond
Grand Canyon. If you don't know Meteor Crater then Wikipedia is sure
to oblige. Utterly fantastic and you are unlikely to see anything like
it elsewhere.

Grand Canyon is utterly stunning, and there is much there that you can
see - far more than a day would allow, BUT even an hour or so in a
single area on foot will give you a lifelong memory of having been
there and of an amazing phenomenon. As an indication of the size,
there are signs warning visitors not to try and walk to the river and
back in a single day.

I can provide a substantial number of photos of Meteor Crater and of
some parts of the Grand Canyon if of interest.

If you manage a car and a 2 day trip you can travel a bit of Route 66
just so you can say you have done it. Seligman and Kingman are
somewhere along that way but I'd have to check a map to see if they
are line of flight when coming to and from Vegas.

If travelling by car going via Sedona (slightly longer) is visually
very rewarding. Sedona is where people from Phoenix flee to to escape
the summer heat if they can afford to :-). The visual attraction is
the fantastic landscape.  I can provide photos but I'm sure Wikipedia
and others do an adequate job.



       Russell


2007\07\27@181553 by alan smith

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...and be sure and take some pictures.  Last time I was there....it was completly fogged in and cold.  Not what you might expect from Arizona.  :-)

Russell McMahon <apptechspamKILLspamparadise.net.nz> wrote:  > Or...for another fun experiance....take the train from Williams to
> the south rim.

I don't know what time and $ are available.

But, if you can manage the cost, and it may not be vastly expensive,
then hiring a car for a day (or two) will give you vastly more
flexibility. If there are several people travelling then the car cost
per person decreases as you fit more in.

If you have the time and the wish to do so ask further and I can tell
you a location near Flagstaff where you can camp overnight at no
charge. No facilities but very pretty and an accepted camping area. We
were directed to it by the most helpful staff of the Flagstaff IHOP.
Chances are you are not equipped for that.

So - IF you have a car and 2 days available (or one day and are
prepared to do a fair bit of travelling in one day) then consider also
seeing Meteor Crater. From memory it is about 1 hours drive beyond
Grand Canyon. If you don't know Meteor Crater then Wikipedia is sure
to oblige. Utterly fantastic and you are unlikely to see anything like
it elsewhere.

Grand Canyon is utterly stunning, and there is much there that you can
see - far more than a day would allow, BUT even an hour or so in a
single area on foot will give you a lifelong memory of having been
there and of an amazing phenomenon. As an indication of the size,
there are signs warning visitors not to try and walk to the river and
back in a single day.

I can provide a substantial number of photos of Meteor Crater and of
some parts of the Grand Canyon if of interest.

If you manage a car and a 2 day trip you can travel a bit of Route 66
just so you can say you have done it. Seligman and Kingman are
somewhere along that way but I'd have to check a map to see if they
are line of flight when coming to and from Vegas.

If travelling by car going via Sedona (slightly longer) is visually
very rewarding. Sedona is where people from Phoenix flee to to escape
the summer heat if they can afford to :-). The visual attraction is
the fantastic landscape. I can provide photos but I'm sure Wikipedia
and others do an adequate job.



Russell


2007\07\27@183550 by Lindy Mayfield

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Jeez.  It takes longer to see it than it took for it to form.  During the "big flood" that is.

{Original Message removed}

2007\07\27@191129 by David VanHorn

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I'd second meteor crater, and that glass overlook at the canyon, if
it's open to the public.

2007\07\27@191335 by David VanHorn

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Apparently it is:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvzlZuWrJNw

On 7/27/07, David VanHorn <.....microbrixKILLspamspam.....gmail.com> wrote:
> I'd second meteor crater, and that glass overlook at the canyon, if
> it's open to the public.
>

2007\07\27@194437 by Russell McMahon

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> Jeez.  It takes longer to see it than it took for it to form.
> During the "big flood" that is.

I don't know that anyone has suggested that the Grand Canyon formed
*quite* that quickly. However, for a geologic formation of even
greater
size that is now believed to have formed literally in days (and that
would
have been a most awesome site* to see) Gargoyle on eg Montana
scablands
or look at eg

       http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missoula_Floods

Quoting:
               The peak flow of the largest floods is estimated to be
40 to 60 cubic
kilometers per hour (9.5 to 15 cubic miles per hour).[1][2] The
maximum flow speed approached 36 meters/second (80 miles per hour).[3]
Up to 1.9×1019 joules of potential energy were released by each flood,
the equivalent of 4500 megatons of TNT.[4] The cumulative effect of
the floods was to excavate 210 km³ (50 mi³) of loess, sediment and
basalt from the channeled scablands of eastern Washington and to
transport it downstream.[1]


4500 megatons!
And that was only a little one :-)

       Russell



* an awesome sight as well.

2007\07\27@200041 by David VanHorn

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> I don't know that anyone has suggested that the Grand Canyon formed
> *quite* that quickly.

I have asked some fundiechristian friends of mine where all that water
was before the flood (they claim it had NEVER rained before the flood)
and where it went to afterward..

2007\07\27@201437 by Marcel Birthelmer

picon face
Here's something I've always found curious. The continents look like,
for the most part, they all sort of fit together. So maybe they were
all fitted together at one point, in a much smaller sphere without all
that water? And then either the water came in the form of a meteorite,
or, more crazily, formed an outer shell (though how it would sustain
itself I don't know) and came crashing down.
Idle ramblings of a friday afternoon...

On 7/27/07, David VanHorn <EraseMEmicrobrixspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:
> > I don't know that anyone has suggested that the Grand Canyon formed
> > *quite* that quickly.
>
> I have asked some fundiechristian friends of mine where all that water
> was before the flood (they claim it had NEVER rained before the flood)
> and where it went to afterward..
> -

2007\07\27@203906 by Jinx

face picon face
> Here's something I've always found curious. The continents look like,
> for the most part, they all sort of fit together. So maybe they were
> all fitted together at one point, in a much smaller sphere without all
> that water? And then either the water came in the form of a meteorite,
> or, more crazily, formed an outer shell (though how it would sustain
> itself I don't know) and came crashing down.
> Idle ramblings of a friday afternoon...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth

The planet has always been this size and water has been there (here)
since it was cool enough for vapour to condense. The continents are
just pool furniture, sort of, floating around on magma

2007\07\27@210215 by David VanHorn

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> The planet has always been this size and water has been there (here)
> since it was cool enough for vapour to condense. The continents are
> just pool furniture, sort of, floating around on magma


I was referring to the water that supposedly covered the earth, higher
than the highest mountains.

2007\07\27@211745 by Marcel Birthelmer

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Yes yes, facts aside, can I still propagate my crackpot theory?

On 7/27/07, Jinx <joecolquittspamspam_OUTclear.net.nz> wrote:
> > Here's something I've always found curious. The continents look like,
> > for the most part, they all sort of fit together. So maybe they were
> > all fitted together at one point, in a much smaller sphere without all
> > that water? And then either the water came in the form of a meteorite,
> > or, more crazily, formed an outer shell (though how it would sustain
> > itself I don't know) and came crashing down.
> > Idle ramblings of a friday afternoon...
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth
>
> The planet has always been this size and water has been there (here)
> since it was cool enough for vapour to condense. The continents are
> just pool furniture, sort of, floating around on magma
>
> -

2007\07\27@220353 by Jinx

face picon face
> Yes yes, facts aside, can I still propagate my crackpot theory ?

Of course. Let us know how that works out ;-) Could be a cult
in it. Plenty of money and grab-ass, nothing wrong with that

2007\07\27@220943 by Jinx

face picon face
> I was referring to the water that supposedly covered the earth,
> higher than the highest mountains

Oh, of course... "supposedly"

Don't forget, and I know you haven't, that at one time people
didn't have any idea of the big picture and a monster flood to
them was a catastrophe of the whole world as they knew it,
even if globally it was nothing special

2007\07\28@002155 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
>> Here's something I've always found curious. The continents look
>> like,
>> for the most part, they all sort of fit together. So maybe they
>> were
>> all fitted together at one point, in a much smaller sphere without
>> all
>> that water? And then either the water came in the form of a
>> meteorite,
>> or, more crazily, formed an outer shell (though how it would
>> sustain
>> itself I don't know) and came crashing down.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth

> The planet has always been this size

Probably - and almost certainly so ever since it was this size :-).
Current majority thinking [tm] (CMT) is that 'the Moon' (Luna)  almost
certainly was torn out of the earth at an early stage by something
rather large, parts of which probably form part of the end product.

> and water has been there (here)
> since it was cool enough for vapour to condense.

" ... cool enough for vapo[u]r to condense ... " may [will] be more
complex than may at first appear. When you have a planetary system
driven by a star only 100 odd million miles away, the condensation
process is essentially certain not to be as we see it today. This
leads to the theory that Dave alluded to

> ... (they claim it had NEVER rained before the flood)

While this concept is not necssarily what the biblical account implies
it does make some sense of it and as a scientific theiry it is not
without some merit - it certainly has more merit than some scientific
theories which are currently part of CMT. If we look at Venus a year /
century / millenia  from now and found that the atmosphere had
condensed the planetary scientists (should such still exist) wouldn't
say "that can't possibly have happened" but "we'll have to revise our
theories", or "ah yes, I was expecting that". ie Some pretty
unexpected but by no means impossible things happen all the time and
science's job is essentially stamp-collecting the observations
(notwithstanding what Rutherord said).

> and where it went to afterward.

When I read Kim Stanley Robinson's utterly incomparable Red / Green /
Blue Mars trilogy, which has one major sub theme which deals with the
terra-forming of Mars, it seemed wondrous but wholly implausible. His
accounts of the vast quantiyes of subterranean water and the means of
persuading it to return to the surface seemed beyond possibility.
Subsequent martian discoveries and indications of the presence of
water indicate that a substantial portion of the water that once lay
on the martian surface may still be there and may be not too too
unamenable to the sort of techniques that KSR proposes in his trilogy.

READ Red / Green / Blue Mars if you haven't. I do not expect to ever
read anything superior in its category in my lifetime - although I'd
be very happy to.

The mechanisms for Terra and the present situation are very different
from Mars, but "where it all went" is not so very hard a question to
answer. It's very largely still there :-). *IF* it was laregly all "up
there" (and it is "scientifically" possible that it was and if it all
'decided' to come 'down here' in a chain reaction short term process,
then I think one might wish to complain that the biblical account
under-described the event :-).

None of the above says that any of the above is how it happened. BUT
it does say that to discount things that scientifically could have
happened (and even things that "scientifically couldn't") is risky for
a person who is committed to a scientific approach.


> The continents are
> just pool furniture, sort of, floating around on magma

Thats roughly the CMT.
EXCEPT that the pool furniture items crush push each other under the
surface as they ride over each other continually.

CMT is that all the continents did fit together.
BUT this was not the CMT even 50 years ago fwiw.


       Russell




2007\07\28@014652 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
>> I was referring to the water that supposedly covered the earth,
>> higher than the highest mountains

> Oh, of course... "supposedly"

> Don't forget, and I know you haven't, that at one time people
> didn't have any idea of the big picture and a monster flood to
> them was a catastrophe of the whole world as they knew it,
> even if globally it was nothing special

Whereas nowadays we know everything about everything :-).
ie it's good to use the far improved perspectives that we may have
gained from ongoing discoveries BUT it's easy to be blinded to reality
by thinking that "we've come about as far as we can go."

As I've said before, look at the history of Plate Tectonics and its
forbear as an example of

- how utterly entrenched a latterly really really stupid looking
theory can be,

- how very very hard it is for an in hindsight "obviously correct"
contender to get a fair hearing,

- how rapidly the change can come when it does, and

- how entrenched the new contender becomes in almost no time.

Who would now give any serious time to a new theory that says that
"Plate Tectonics is completely wrong and that the real truth is that
... ". This was PRECISELY what Plate Tectonics itself faced and took
many many decades to overcome.

Exercise for the student:  What percentage of the volume of the
oceans' water is the land volume above mean high water mark?

Note:

1.    Don't draw the wrong conclusions from the answer.

2.    Don't think that the answer is meant to imply anything.


           Russell








2007\07\28@071040 by Lee Jones

flavicon
face
NB: I love the southwest US desert, so long post follows.

>>> [Grand Canyon, starting from Las Vegas]

Most comments imply the Grand Canyon south rim.  There's more...
[I am going to ignore the north rim area in the following.]

> hiring a car

If you have a car and time, you can see several spectacular places.

Starting in Las Vegas, take Interstate 515/highway 95/highway 93
east & then southeast out of town.  You want highway 93 going to
& through Boulder City (built for workers who were constructing the
dam).  There's a nice 1950's style cafe in town and a museum on the
building of Hoover Dam.  Continue through Boulder City on hwy 93 to
Hoover Dam.

Spend time visiting Hoover Dam & take the tour.  This gets you a
good view of the Colorado River Canyon (technically not the Grand
Canyon since it's past the official west end) filled with water
(i.e. Lake Mead) and with just the river (i.e. dam outflow).

Continue southeast on highway 93 into Arizona.  Turn northeast at
highway 25 (Pierce Rerry Road), go through Dolan Springs, more on
highway 25, then take Diamond Bar Road (was dirt when I was last
there a few years ago) onto the Hualapai Indian Reservation (road
on reservation is paved).  Finding the turnoff to this road to
Grand Canyon West is not the easiest task -- maybe it's better
marked now.

Hualapai Indians have a rim overlook at Grand Canyon West with
a glass bottomed Skywalk (haven't been on it).  There charge a
not-insignificant entrance fee.  But when we were there, it was
nearly deserted -- wonderfull emptiness & grandeur.

One downside is you essentially have to retrace your path back
out on Diamond Bar Road and highway 25 to highway 93.

Continue southeast on highway 93 to Kingman.  Stay on highway 93
and cross Interstate 40; highway 93 turns into highway 40 and is
named Beale Road.  About 1/2 mile east of Interstate 40, branch
southeast on either Ella's Place or turn south on 1st Street.  Go
50 meters to Andy Devine Avenue (old US Route 66).

In the old powerhouse (between Andy Devine and railroad tracks)
is the Historic Route 66 Museum.  It's next to Locamotive Park
[city park with locamotives in it].

After the museum, you can choose to get on Interstate 40.  It's
fast but you can't see much.

I recommend route 66 (Andy Devine) northeast out of Kingman
through lots of little towns with interesting places.  One of
the several books on Route 66 (sold at museum) will give you
background on the various places you'll be passing through.

Route 66 is north of, and roughly parallel to, Interstate 40.
Area can get some very interesting thunderstorms in summer due
to air mass being heated and rapidly lifting.

In Peach Springs is the Hualapai Indian tribal headquarters.

About 12 miles past Peach Springs is Grand Canyon Caverns &
Inn (http://www.gccaverns.com).  There's a motel.  Important element
is the Grand Canyon Caverns -- a series of natural underground
cavens 210 feet down.  A natural vent goes many miles from the
caverns to the south face of the Grand Canyon (thus the name).
2007 is the 80th anniversary of the discovery of the caverns.
I really like the caverns.

After Grand Canyon Caverns, continue east on Route 66.  At
Seligman, you can join Interstate 40.  Or you can continue on
Route 66 until it merges with Interstate 40 at Crookton.

Continue east on Interstate 40 to Willaims.  There's the train
from Williams to the Grand Canyon (as previously mentioned).

You can also take highway 64 north to the Grand Canyon.  Near
the rim, highway 64 turns into East Rim Drive.  You can take it
along the south rim (major tourist area) to highway 89 which
you can take south to Flagstaff and Interstate 40.

Continue east on Interstate 40 about 30 miles east of Flagstaff
to Meteor Crater.  I completely endorse the comments that it is
worth seeing and walking around the edge.

After Meteor Crater, you pass through Winslow AZ (memorialized
in a hit song many years ago) and Holbrook.  After Holbrook is
Petrified Forest National Park -- another place worth visiting.

We've now reached the New Mexico border, so I'll desist. :-)

                                               Lee Jones

2007\07\28@074054 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face

> After Meteor Crater, you pass through Winslow AZ (memorialized
> in a hit song many years ago)

Standing on a corner ...

We never got that far alas - just had too too much to do in the time
not available. Next time.

Just passing through Kingman and Selligman and having a quick look at
the towns is worthwhile if you don't have time for Route 66 museums
etc. The town seem to owe quite a lot to Route 66 sales. The tourist
junk is the same as from most other places in the world but it says
"Route 66" on it. But seeing an Edsel with a fake Elvis standing with
one foot on the bumper, and the R66 bedecked shops and all is rather
fun. if only for a little while.

But, actually get to drive a small bit of the mother road was the main
thrill. Totally unremarkable as a road but I could almost see and hear
the Oakies and their jalopies straining their way up the hills,
California bound.

Hoover dam at night is a sight worth seeing. If you go by bus the Feds
may not let you go by that route, depending on the state of world
terror alert at the time. Cars are OK across the dam apparently but we
got to run a gauntlet of gun toting torch wielding inspectors. Quite
fun when you come from down under where such things don't (very often)
happen. (I assume that this means that they think it would take a bus
or truck sized bomb to breach the dam).



           Russell


2007\07\28@131639 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 06:11 PM 7/27/2007, you wrote:
>I'd second meteor crater, and that glass overlook at the canyon, if
>it's open to the public.

Personally, I'd nix the grater use the time/$ to visit (hike and/or
take a 4WD tour) the red rock area in and around Sedona
in the Sonaran desert. Others find the crater fascinating, but I thought
the privately run  hole in the ground attraction a waste of time and money--
it looks a lot like a quarry from the rim. As far as Winslow AZ goes, remember
the song may have been about being stuck there and trying to hitch out. ;-)

BTW, if you have a bit of time to kill there, the desert
museum in  Phoenix is certainly worth a visit- it's  minutes from the airport
and the people there are very informative.

http://www.desertmuseum.org/

The canyon is one of the few such attractions that is not overhyped IMHO--
I've been there several times, in different seasons, and it's been good
every time (both rims and one time on Christmas at the el Tovar hotel (kind
of a lodge type atmosphere). Viewing is best around sunset and sunrise.


>Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
@spam@speffKILLspamspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com



2007\07\28@153549 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Spehro Pefhany wrote:

> BTW, if you have a bit of time to kill there, the desert museum in
> Phoenix is certainly worth a visit

Maybe an obvious, but then not that obvious, suggestion: if you have a bit
of time to kill near any of the parks, a hike into the desert for a few
hours and actually /experience/ the southwestern desert is usually worth it
:)

Gerhard

2007\07\28@164547 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
>>I'd second meteor crater, and that glass overlook at the canyon, if
>>it's open to the public.

> Personally, I'd nix the grater

Each to their own :-)
Judge for yourself

1.25 MB panorama
http://others.servebeer.com/temp/MeteorCrater.jpg

Bear in mind that that is over 1 kilometre across - everything is much
larger than it looks.

Awesome.
Costs money to enter and no view of the crater possible without
paying.
No entry to crater allowed.

Take a magnet with you.
Tie a string to it.
Drag it in the dirt outside the controlled crater area.
Save the dust it gathers.
Place in small bottle.
Label "Fragments from Barringer Meteor"
:-)

       Russell






______________________________


Others there.
Variably worthwhile

Good but probably not high interest
Area commanders Japanese residence and garden - now Chinese garden &
museum.
Built by Japanese during long occupation of Taiwan.

   06/07/2005  02:23 p.m.           325,927
Taiwan_Taichung_Museum.jpg


Goodish but not overly interesting to most.
Inside of 'my' church
   17/04/2005  06:01 p.m.           190,503
Church_interior_interesting_smaller.jpg
   17/04/2005  07:41 p.m.         2,066,641
Church_interior_GLCC_interesting_FULL_SIZE_2MB.jpg

Chiangkaishek memorial, Taipei, Taiwan.
   29/06/2005  10:20 p.m.           602,013 CKSMemHall.jpg

   View from the hall steps - impressive
   30/06/2005  01:40 a.m.           806,028 CKSMemHallView100%s1.jpg
   30/06/2005  01:40 a.m.           806,028 cksmemhallview.jpg

Good if you are interested in the Forth Road bridge.
All are variants of the same source photos
09/05/2005  10:38 p.m.         1,519,094 Forth Bridge 100% cropped
rectangular.jpg
09/05/2005  02:48 p.m.           181,644 Forth Road bridge 33% 4 shot
panorama cropped rectangular.jpg
09/05/2005  02:46 p.m.            65,152 Forth Road Bridge.jpg
09/05/2005  02:48 p.m.           224,104 Forth Road bridge 33% 4 shot
panorama.jpg
09/05/2005  03:39 p.m.         1,906,366 Forth Road Bridge 100% 4
photos.jpg

CS Lewis's College, Oxford.
15/04/2005  11:27 p.m.            65,732 Magdalene College Oxford.jpg

Fun
17/04/2005  05:43 p.m.         1,416,216
Foodhall_with_repeated_people.jpg

14/04/2005  08:11 p.m.         1,249,979 MeteorCrater.jpg
14/04/2005  07:32 p.m.           125,552 Meteor Crater inside only
.jpg

South Island NZ.
17/04/2005  12:21 a.m.            36,901 Routeburn Summit V1 .jpg
17/04/2005  12:23 a.m.            36,043 Routeburn Summit V2 .jpg
17/04/2005  12:27 a.m.           461,325 Routeburn Summit NZ Great
Walks Track V3.jpg




06/07/2005  02:23 p.m.           325,927 Taiwan_Taichung_Museum.jpg


             18 File(s)     12,085,248 bytes
              2 Dir(s)     694,026,240 bytes free


2007\07\28@170405 by dpharris

picon face
Try this: http://others.servebeer.com/temp/MeteorCraterPanorama.jpg

David

Quoting Russell McMahon <KILLspamapptechKILLspamspamparadise.net.nz>:

{Quote hidden}

> --

2007\07\28@185700 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
> Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>
>  
>> BTW, if you have a bit of time to kill there, the desert museum in
>> Phoenix is certainly worth a visit
>>    
>
> Maybe an obvious, but then not that obvious, suggestion: if you have a bit
> of time to kill near any of the parks, a hike into the desert for a few
> hours and actually /experience/ the southwestern desert is usually worth it
> :)
>
> Gerhard
>
>  
Yes. And BRING WATER!

--Bob

2007\07\30@042235 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Route 66 is north of, and roughly parallel to, Interstate 40.
>Area can get some very interesting thunderstorms in summer
>due to air mass being heated and rapidly lifting.

That is my memory of going to Grand Canyon. After spending a bit of a day
looking at this enormous gash in the ground (pictures just do not do justice
to the size of it) we drove away through a torrential downpour - and this
was in the middle of 'the big drought' in '88!!

Certainly a place I would like to visit again, given the opportunity.

2007\07\30@042649 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Cars are OK across the dam apparently but we got to
>run a gauntlet of gun toting torch wielding inspectors.

Coming from NZ, with an essentially unarmed police force, it took me a while
to get used to the idea of any Park Rangers having a gun on their hip. Once
I rationalised it as them being law enforcers, and potentially needing to
deal with dangerous animals, it became a lot more obvious as to the
necessity of it.

2007\07\30@051622 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
I see that somebody on the list ( .... .ch) found the new friends I
met on holiday last Christmas :-)


       Russell


2007\07\30@101808 by alan smith

picon face
Its amazing what goes on in the parks...and why they have to be armed.  Lots of open areas, away from the general populace.....good place to grow "cash crops" that sometimes tends to be well protected as well.

"Alan B. Pearce" <RemoveMEA.B.PearceTakeThisOuTspamrl.ac.uk> wrote:  >Cars are OK across the dam apparently but we got to
>run a gauntlet of gun toting torch wielding inspectors.

Coming from NZ, with an essentially unarmed police force, it took me a while
to get used to the idea of any Park Rangers having a gun on their hip. Once
I rationalised it as them being law enforcers, and potentially needing to
deal with dangerous animals, it became a lot more obvious as to the
necessity of it.

2007\07\30@102224 by alan smith

picon face
and if you want to have an interesting read about the dams and waterways of the Colorado...
 
 http://www.wetdesert.net/
 
 Saw someone reading this at the airport a week or so back...quite a facinating perspective..

Lee Jones <spamBeGoneleespamBeGonespamfrumble.claremont.edu> wrote:
 NB: I love the southwest US desert, so long post follows.

>>> [Grand Canyon, starting from Las Vegas]

Most comments imply the Grand Canyon south rim. There's more...
[I am going to ignore the north rim area in the following.]

> hiring a car

If you have a car and time, you can see several spectacular places.

Starting in Las Vegas, take Interstate 515/highway 95/highway 93
east & then southeast out of town. You want highway 93 going to
& through Boulder City (built for workers who were constructing the
dam). There's a nice 1950's style cafe in town and a museum on the
building of Hoover Dam. Continue through Boulder City on hwy 93 to
Hoover Dam.

Spend time visiting Hoover Dam & take the tour. This gets you a
good view of the Colorado River Canyon (technically not the Grand
Canyon since it's past the official west end) filled with water
(i.e. Lake Mead) and with just the river (i.e. dam outflow).

Continue southeast on highway 93 into Arizona. Turn northeast at
highway 25 (Pierce Rerry Road), go through Dolan Springs, more on
highway 25, then take Diamond Bar Road (was dirt when I was last
there a few years ago) onto the Hualapai Indian Reservation (road
on reservation is paved). Finding the turnoff to this road to
Grand Canyon West is not the easiest task -- maybe it's better
marked now.

Hualapai Indians have a rim overlook at Grand Canyon West with
a glass bottomed Skywalk (haven't been on it). There charge a
not-insignificant entrance fee. But when we were there, it was
nearly deserted -- wonderfull emptiness & grandeur.

One downside is you essentially have to retrace your path back
out on Diamond Bar Road and highway 25 to highway 93.

Continue southeast on highway 93 to Kingman. Stay on highway 93
and cross Interstate 40; highway 93 turns into highway 40 and is
named Beale Road. About 1/2 mile east of Interstate 40, branch
southeast on either Ella's Place or turn south on 1st Street. Go
50 meters to Andy Devine Avenue (old US Route 66).

In the old powerhouse (between Andy Devine and railroad tracks)
is the Historic Route 66 Museum. It's next to Locamotive Park
[city park with locamotives in it].

After the museum, you can choose to get on Interstate 40. It's
fast but you can't see much.

I recommend route 66 (Andy Devine) northeast out of Kingman
through lots of little towns with interesting places. One of
the several books on Route 66 (sold at museum) will give you
background on the various places you'll be passing through.

Route 66 is north of, and roughly parallel to, Interstate 40.
Area can get some very interesting thunderstorms in summer due
to air mass being heated and rapidly lifting.

In Peach Springs is the Hualapai Indian tribal headquarters.

About 12 miles past Peach Springs is Grand Canyon Caverns &
Inn (http://www.gccaverns.com). There's a motel. Important element
is the Grand Canyon Caverns -- a series of natural underground
cavens 210 feet down. A natural vent goes many miles from the
caverns to the south face of the Grand Canyon (thus the name).
2007 is the 80th anniversary of the discovery of the caverns.
I really like the caverns.

After Grand Canyon Caverns, continue east on Route 66. At
Seligman, you can join Interstate 40. Or you can continue on
Route 66 until it merges with Interstate 40 at Crookton.

Continue east on Interstate 40 to Willaims. There's the train
from Williams to the Grand Canyon (as previously mentioned).

You can also take highway 64 north to the Grand Canyon. Near
the rim, highway 64 turns into East Rim Drive. You can take it
along the south rim (major tourist area) to highway 89 which
you can take south to Flagstaff and Interstate 40.

Continue east on Interstate 40 about 30 miles east of Flagstaff
to Meteor Crater. I completely endorse the comments that it is
worth seeing and walking around the edge.

After Meteor Crater, you pass through Winslow AZ (memorialized
in a hit song many years ago) and Holbrook. After Holbrook is
Petrified Forest National Park -- another place worth visiting.

We've now reached the New Mexico border, so I'll desist. :-)

Lee Jones

2007\07\30@120149 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Its amazing what goes on in the parks...and why they have to
>be armed.  Lots of open areas, away from the general populace
>.....good place to grow "cash crops" that sometimes tends to
>be well protected as well.

Don't worry - that happens in NZ as well, there are plenty of remote areas
where that some problem exists - including the booby traps.

2007\07\30@131347 by Gacrowell

flavicon
face
I was surprised that that Wiki page didn't reference the Lake Bonneville Flood, which also drained through the Columbia River area:

http://imnh.isu.edu/digitalatlas/hydr/lkbflood/lbf.htm

Gary



> {Original Message removed}

2007\07\30@214305 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
I was surprised that that Wiki page didn't reference the Lake
Bonneville Flood, which also drained through the Columbia River area:

http://imnh.isu.edu/digitalatlas/hydr/lkbflood/lbf.htm

Can't go giving the Creationists too easy a ride :-)


       Russell

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