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'[OT] Get your HIGHER QUALITY ethernet cables!'
2008\06\16@061517 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face
www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/06/13/money-
sense-250-ethernet-cable

I supposed it had to happen.

It's one thing to run digital data over ordinary cat5; but if you're  
running AUDIO data such inferior cable will surely degrade your audio  
quality!

Sigh.
BillW

2008\06\16@075018 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: spam_OUTpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu [.....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu] On
Behalf
{Quote hidden}

It's *probably* just a marketing exercise, but this cable is for a
proprietary interface (Denon Link), and not necessarily plain old IP
over Ethernet.  Just perhaps standard cheap cables don't have tightly
enough controlled parameters to be guaranteed to work correctly for this
application?

Regards

Mike

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2008\06\16@085110 by Jake Anderson

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face
Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I have a very high quality bridge for sale if your interested, the sound
stage is broad and rich.
cryogenic treatment can be had for a nominal fee.

2008\06\16@091443 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


> -----Original Message-----
> From: EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmit.edu [piclist-bouncesspamspam_OUTmit.edu] On
Behalf
{Quote hidden}

you're
> >> running AUDIO data such inferior cable will surely degrade your
audio
> >> quality!
> >>
> >
> > It's *probably* just a marketing exercise, but this cable is for a
> > proprietary interface (Denon Link), and not necessarily plain old IP
> > over Ethernet.  Just perhaps standard cheap cables don't have
tightly
> > enough controlled parameters to be guaranteed to work correctly for
this
> > application?
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Mike
> >
> I have a very high quality bridge for sale if your interested, the
sound
> stage is broad and rich.
> cryogenic treatment can be had for a nominal fee.

Does it work with Denon Link though?

I'm far from an audiofool, and reading of people using gold plated mains
cables and power sockets to improve their sound reproduction always
gives me chuckle.  However, people assuming that a digital interface is
immune from any cable effects are either ignorant or deluding
themselves.

Regards

Mike

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2008\06\16@103955 by Paul Hutchinson

picon face
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu On Behalf Of Michael Rigby-Jones
> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 9:14 AM
>
> Does it work with Denon Link though?
>
> I'm far from an audiofool, and reading of people using gold plated mains
> cables and power sockets to improve their sound reproduction always
> gives me chuckle.  However, people assuming that a digital interface is
> immune from any cable effects are either ignorant or deluding
> themselves.

I see two possibilities here, either Denon designed the worst digital
interface in the history of the world (it requires a $500 cable to reliably
cover a 5 foot distance) or, they are defrauding the gullible audiophiles.
Given Denon's long history of decent electrical engineering I'm leaning
towards the marketing department and management deciding to hop on the ever
growing snake oil bandwagon.

The total lack of elctrical data on the data sheet from their web site is
evidence for the fraud hypothesis.
http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3429.asp

Paul

> Regards
>
> Mike

2008\06\16@110510 by SM Ling

picon face
>
> I see two possibilities here, either Denon designed the worst digital
> interface in the history of the world (it requires a $500 cable to reliably
> cover a 5 foot distance) or, they are defrauding the gullible audiophiles.
> Given Denon's long history of decent electrical engineering I'm leaning
> towards the marketing department and management deciding to hop on the ever
> growing snake oil bandwagon.
>
> The total lack of elctrical data on the data sheet from their web site is
> evidence for the fraud hypothesis.
> http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3429.asp
>
>
Maybe not that bad.  I heard that hobbyists from banking and financial
industry are very willing and happy to foot these prices.  Base on effort,
these customers ought to price 10 times or much more.  Needless to say if
the cable fails badly Denon should deserve another huge departing fee.

Cheers, Ling SM

2008\06\16@130407 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Jun 16, 2008, at 4:49 AM, Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> --

2008\06\16@133426 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Jun 16, 2008, at 6:14 AM, Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:

> people assuming that a digital interface is immune from any cable  
> effects are either ignorant or deluding themselves.

Yes, and this is what the physical layers like "10baseT" are designed  
to handle, and the link layer is designed to detect errors, and the  
network layer is designed to correct.  With a digital cable, and  
especially for something like ip over ethernet (although it's true  
that this isn't ever called an ethernet cable on the Denon site),  
either the bits come out the same as they went in, or they don't.  
There is no "these correct bits sound better than these other correct  
bits because their edges were less rounded on the cable."

BillW

2008\06\16@140543 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
One of the pages I went to noted that an earlier explanation on
Denon's own website was that the Denon Link use LVDS to run 24bit
192khz stereo, or 24 bit 96khz multichannel down the shielded twisted
pairs, and that each channel had the capacity of 1.something gbps.

So it's probably not ethernet (and if it were some variant it would be
very different due to the timing requirements of audio), and given the
LVDS I can see that the short cable would be required, with very
tightly controlled impedances.

Still, another poster indicated they were able to use a regular patch
cord on earlier Denon link, and others mention that it doesn't work on
today's denon link devices.

Would be interesting to rip one apart and check out the drivers.

Still... $500 for a 1.5M piece of STP?  Ludicrious.

-Adam

On 6/16/08, William Chops Westfield <RemoveMEwestfwspamTakeThisOuTmac.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\06\16@165009 by alan smith

picon face
Having worked at one time for a high end pro-audio company, we were sending audio, both digitial and analog over 'cat5' cables, and like denon using a propritory encoded link.&nbsp; It wasn't ethernet, although we used ethernet cables.
&nbsp;
Sending audio and video by ethernet...is being done using things like EthernetAV
&nbsp;
Really whats behind this is....if you dont use the right cables...don't cry to us about things not working right.&nbsp; The ppl that spec out systems are usually clueless and just go off what the sales and marketing teams say.&nbsp; So sure...add one of those expensive cables if thats what I need...
&nbsp;
Too bad they wont be at InfoComm this week....I'd drop in and have a chat about these.


     

2008\06\16@174518 by Jinx

face picon face
> http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3429.asp

"and high performance connection parts, the AK-DL1 will bring
out all the nuances in digital audio reproduction"

Digital audio has "nuances" ? I don't think so

"woven jacketing to reduce vibration"

So that's what the noise is keeping me awake nights. It's the LAN
cable vibrating

"Additionally, signal directional markings are provided for optimum
signal transfer"

Ah, there's a clue. Must have diodes in it

"Rounded plug levers help prevent breakage"

Oh no they don't

2008\06\16@174905 by piclist

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face
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008, Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:
> It's *probably* just a marketing exercise, but this cable is for a
> proprietary interface (Denon Link), and not necessarily plain old IP
> over Ethernet.  Just perhaps standard cheap cables don't have tightly
> enough controlled parameters to be guaranteed to work correctly for this
> application?

If someones audio equipment has been designed so badly that standard cat5
or cat6 is not good enough to deliver a clear data stream, then I think
buying expensive Monster cabling for it is the least of their problems.
I can't imagine how big of a screw up an engineer has to make so that
ethernet-style hardware is unable to function without magic cable.

I am quite familiar with ethernet and networking in large and cramped
runs.  You really have to abuse the hell out of most cable before you
actually start degrading the signal.  Well, aside from badly crimped
connectors.

Monster cable is such a horrible rip-off that anything they do is
automaticly suspect in my mind.  Like their audio cable with optical fiber
interwoven into it to increase sound quality.  I think it highlights a
major problem in our high-tech world.  Everything is so complicated that
if you are not an expert in that exact field, it's easy to get duped.  

--
Ian Smith
http://www.ian.org

2008\06\17@041359 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>"Additionally, signal directional markings are provided for optimum
>signal transfer"
>
>Ah, there's a clue. Must have diodes in it

Yeah, but ... but ... but ...

The arrows go both ways, which way should I plug it in .....

(expensive support call to 0900 number coming up ...)


2008\06\17@042949 by Jinx

face picon face
> The arrows go both ways, which way should I plug it in .....
>
> (expensive support call to 0900 number coming up ...)

Ah, excellent question sir. Sir would be requiring our Full
Duplex Adapter Kit. You do have AMEX Gold ? It's gonna
cost ya ..... but there's nothing quite like it on the market

2008\06\17@061536 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-bouncesEraseMEspam.....mit.edu [EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspammit.edu] On
Behalf
> Of RemoveMEpiclistEraseMEspamEraseMEian.org
> Sent: 16 June 2008 22:49
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: RE: [OT] Get your HIGHER QUALITY ethernet cables!
>
> On Mon, 16 Jun 2008, Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:
> > It's *probably* just a marketing exercise, but this cable is for a
> > proprietary interface (Denon Link), and not necessarily plain old IP
> > over Ethernet.  Just perhaps standard cheap cables don't have
tightly
> > enough controlled parameters to be guaranteed to work correctly for
this
> > application?
>
> If someones audio equipment has been designed so badly that standard
cat5
> or cat6 is not good enough to deliver a clear data stream, then I
think
> buying expensive Monster cabling for it is the least of their
problems.
> I can't imagine how big of a screw up an engineer has to make so that
> ethernet-style hardware is unable to function without magic cable.
>
> I am quite familiar with ethernet and networking in large and cramped
> runs.  You really have to abuse the hell out of most cable before you
> actually start degrading the signal.  Well, aside from badly crimped
> connectors.

I guess you are familiar with Denon Link then?  Could you enlighten us
with the physical/network layer used?  E.g. Ethernet, UDP?

Contrary to many of the arguments on here regarding Ethernet's tolerance
to cabling, many/most digital audio and video links have little or no
error correction and certainly no re-send of corrupted packets simply
due to the latency issues it would cause.  As I mentioned before, an
excellent example is HDMI which will often not work correctly or at all
with long, cheap cables which are outside of the spec.

Once again, I'm not an audiofool.  If Denon does use Ethernet/UDP then
this is most certainly a ridiculously expensive gimmick, but so far I've
heard nothing to suggest it does.

Regards

Mike

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