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'[OT] Fuel price (was: Static and petrol vapours)'
2004\02\18@064504 by Howard Winter

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Russell,

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 23:56:28 +1300, Russell McMahon wrote:

>...<
>I may also have been annoyed by the fact that petrol cost more than twice as much as it does in NZ.

You're annoyed?  We have to pay that all the time!

>Presently here it's about the equivalent of 0.35 GBP per litre. What's it cost in the UK now?

The cheapest I can find it at the moment is 72.7p/litre, so you're about right there.  This is on the
outskirts of Watford, at ASDA(-Walmart) or Sainsbury's on the A41 for anyone travelling in this area.  Most
places are a couple of pence more than this.  Motorway services tend to be 6 or 7p more!

My car costs about 12p/mile for petrol in normal use, down to about 10.5p on long journeys.

Cheers,

Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

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2004\02\18@070542 by Brian Clewer

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Howard wrote:

> On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 23:56:28 +1300, Russell McMahon wrote:
>
> >...<
> >I may also have been annoyed by the fact that petrol cost more
> than twice as much as it does in NZ.
>


Well I have just returned from Ghana and their fuel is 4 times less than
what we pay in the UK.  Someone somewhere is making a buck or two.

Brian.

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2004\02\18@073035 by Dominic Stratten

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That would be the UK Government then :-(

Something like 77% of the price we pay at the pump goes straight into their
pockets as fuel tax.

It now costs me 60GBP ($114) to pay for the petrol to take my partner and
child the 540 mile return journey to visit her parents. This is in an
average sized family car driving carefully.

Its actually cheaper for me to get on a plane to Amsterdam return journey
than it is to drive down to the coast.

The Government are trying to encourage us to use "public transport" so I
punched the figures into the national rail website and came back with this
for the standard fare (6 hour journey with 3 stops):

Adult Fare: 356.00 GBP (2 adults @ 178.00 GBP )
Child Fare: 89.00 GBP (1 child @ 89.00 GBP )
TOTAL PRICE 445.00 GBP

Now 445.00GBP ($849.95) for a 540 mile return journey for 2 adults and a
child is pretty rediculous. How do the government expect us to use "public"
transport at these prices.

Anyway - gripe over I'm sure things will get worse before they get better.

Dom


{Original Message removed}

2004\02\18@090112 by D. Jay Newman

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> That would be the UK Government then :-(
>
> Something like 77% of the price we pay at the pump goes straight into their
> pockets as fuel tax.
>
> It now costs me 60GBP ($114) to pay for the petrol to take my partner and
> child the 540 mile return journey to visit her parents. This is in an
> average sized family car driving carefully.

Ouch!

I have a 485 mile round trip, and it costs me only about $40 US. Of course,
I'm using interstate highways the entire trip, and don't have to go on
all those curvey British roads...  :)

I drive a basic family sedan with fairly good fuel mileage. I wonder how
all of the people in my area with SUVs (Suburban Utility Vehicles*) are
paying for their gas.

*If they were meant for "sport", then why do they tip over at the drop
of a hat? Also, these vehicles (in my area) tend to be cleaner than my
car.
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2004\02\18@103602 by Howard Winter
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Michael,

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:44:16 -0000, Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:

> There are also rumours that the government is considering dropping our
> annual "road tax" of between 80-160GBP (exact price depends on engine
> capacity or CO2 emmisions depending on age of car) and will instead add even
> more tax to fuel.  Figures of around 1.00GBP per litre are being suggested,
> which would mean a massive increase in tax for anyone doing the average
> 10,000 mile per year in an average car doing say, 35MPG.

No change there, then - the government has always seen drivers as an inexhaustable source of revenue so they
can waste it on daft schemes that anyone else could have told them were destined to fail...

I have always said it should be the other way round: pay £1000 a year for the car, and reduce the tax on fuel.
Why?  Because doing it "their way" encourages people to buy cars, and then hardly ever drive them, leading to
inexperienced drivers, a reduction in the standard of driving (which seems to be happening anyway) so more
accidents.

Instead of putting in "traffic calming", speed cameras, and all the other tripe to the detriment of drivers, I
think they should be working to increase the skills and standards of driving.  How?  Why not periodic driving
tests, that actually test the person's driving abilities properly, not just the ability to do a couple of
maneuvers and not run over many pedestrians?  That would provide a revenue stream to HMG and weed out those
that really shouldn't be on the road (such as an aunt of mine who is phychologically unsuitable to drive - she
treats it as a battle of egos between her and the rest of the world, and is dangerous as a result).  The
result would be an increase in the standard of driving, and fewer accidents.

And instead of banning drivers who accumulate too many points, make them attend a driving-remedial school and
pass a test thereafter, as I believe they do in California.

</rant>

> Another golden opportunity for the governement to shaft the car driver...

"Congestion charge" - coming to a road near you!  :-(((

Cheers,

Howard Winter
St.Albans, Herts

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2004\02\18@113304 by Alexander JJ Rice

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>> Another golden opportunity for the governement to shaft the car
>> driver...
>
> "Congestion charge" - coming to a road near you!  :-(((
>
Yes indeed, i go to university un Durham (that's the UK - i bet there's a
fake lurking over the pond somewhere) and there's a congestion charge for
the middle of town. My solution was simple - no car, instead the nicest
bike i could get (http://www.windheetah.co.uk) you should see the drivers faces
as i cycle straight UNDER the barrier (you'll _have_ to check the link
now... ;-) while they're stuck there in the queue waiting to pony up their
quid. It's great - no fuel, no tax, no congestion charges, no MOT, no
insurance it doesn't take long to recoup the cost of the bike. Add to that
the fact that it is unique, fun, comfortable and good for you - even my
dad likes it 'cos girls wave at him <cough> !

Regards

Alex Rice

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2004\02\18@114138 by Alan B. Pearce

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www.windcheetah.co.uk/

I think you missed out a character when typing the address. this one works.

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2004\02\18@115138 by Alexander JJ Rice

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On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:41:04 -0000, Alan B. Pearce <.....A.B.PearceKILLspamspam@spam@RL.AC.UK>
wrote:

> http://www.windcheetah.co.uk/
>
> I think you missed out a character when typing the address. this one
> works.
>
oops - good catch!


Alex Rice

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2004\02\18@130509 by John Ferrell

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Sigh...Oh to be young again...
I drive a cargo van, a few days a week and seldom far...

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexander JJ Rice" <a.j.j.ricespamKILLspamDURHAM.AC.UK>
To: <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 11:55 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] Fuel price (was: Static and petrol vapours)

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2004\02\18@152821 by Bob Blick

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> And instead of banning drivers who accumulate too many points, make them
> attend a driving-remedial school and pass a test thereafter, as I
> believe they do in California.

You're talking about me... yeah, driving school. Take it on the internet,
it is very easy to cheat, even on the proctored exam. I did the whole 10
hour thing in less than two hours.

It's all just a way to generate revenue. California wants as many drivers
on the road as possible, it doesn't matter how bad they are. Enforce speed
limits by A) raising insurance on speeders or B) putting a cell phone in
their hands so it's hard to drive fast.

It's scary driving here. Nobody uses their turn signals any more(it's the
cellphone hand). They follow at one car length no matter how fast traffic
is running. SUVs are getting so big they barely fit the lanes.

Don't look to California for solutions to bad driving. Germany or maybe
some of the Scandinavian countries is a better bet.

Cheers,

Bob

P.S. I got a better radar detector, keep my eyes open, no tickets in over
two years, knock wood :-)

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2004\02\18@155731 by Mike Hord

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>My car costs about 12p/mile for petrol in normal use, down to about 10.5p
>on long journeys.

What exactly is a long journey in the UK?

I routinely drive 200-300 miles, and I only consider that to be a middling
distance.  During college I would routinely drive 200 miles home to get
something and then 200 miles back that same day.

Gas these days (around here at least) is around $1.60/gallon, or .82 UKP.
At a little more than 4 liters per gallon, we get a pretty good deal.

Mike H.

>Cheers,
>
>Howard Winter
>St.Albans, England
>
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2004\02\18@162841 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> What exactly is a long journey in the UK?

Trying to use the motorway around Londen in the rush hour. Takes
forever. NB read Pratchet/Gaiman to find out why.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\02\18@184935 by Jake Anderson

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if you are busted here (Australia) with a radar detector (under the new
scheme)
its 9 points (you have 12 max and restore at i think 3 points every 2
years?)
and $1170 fine.
0-15km speeding is 2 points and $150 or so

{Original Message removed}

2004\02\18@191048 by Colin Constant

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> > What exactly is a long journey in the UK?
>
You know what they say about the difference between England and Canada :

In England, a hundred miles is a long way.  In Canada, a hundred years is a
long time.

Colin

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2004\02\18@234655 by Russell McMahon

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> > What exactly is a long journey in the UK?
>
> Trying to use the motorway around Londen in the rush hour. Takes
> forever. NB read Pratchet/Gaiman to find out why.


Average speed of automobiles at start of 20th century = 11 mph
Average speed of automobiles at end  of 20th century =   6 mph

according to something I heard recently



       RM

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2004\02\19@025329 by Dominic Stratten

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Blick"

> limits by A) raising insurance on speeders or

Insurance prices are pretty stupid over in the uk anyway - coupled with the
governments speed camera tirade then everyone would be paying double
insurance. In Northants (Uk) we have one of the highest numbers of fixed
speed cameras in the uk. Coupled with the mobile units that appear from out
of nowhere you have to be extremely careful about your speed - people are
driving with more concentration being paid on their speedometer than the
road these days.

>
> It's scary driving here. Nobody uses their turn signals any more(it's the
> cellphone hand).

Fortunately it is now illegal to use a "non hands free" mobile phone while
driving in the UK.

> They follow at one car length no matter how fast traffic
> is running. SUVs are getting so big they barely fit the lanes.
>

SUV's over here seem to be used exclusively for taking the kids to school
and parking on the pavement when they arrive - this is the furthest off road
they ever seem to get.

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2004\02\19@025743 by Dominic Stratten

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Hord"

> >My car costs about 12p/mile for petrol in normal use, down to about 10.5p
> >on long journeys.
>
> What exactly is a long journey in the UK?
>

With the state of some of the roads in the UK it can vary from 50 miles
upwards. My partner only has to drive 15 miles into work each day and
normally takes her half an hour. Sometimes though it will take between 1
hour and 1.5 hours. A couple of weeks ago she left work at 5pm and didnt get
back home until 10:30pm.

When we first started dating, I drove down to be with her at the weekends -
270 mile drive. This journey used to take between 5 and 9 hours depending on
how many accidents/roadworks/weather etc.

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2004\02\19@035422 by Hulatt, Jon

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>
> Trying to use the motorway around Londen in the rush hour.
> Takes forever. NB read Pratchet/Gaiman to find out why.
>

:) - the M25 (which is a freeway circles London) is known as the biggest car
park in the world.



> > What exactly is a long journey in the UK?
>

I live ~50 miles north of london, and my parents live in north wales. It's
about 240 miles there. I regard that as a long journey.

> Gas these days (around here at least) is around $1.60/gallon, or .82 UKP.
At a little more than 4 liters per gallon,
> we get a pretty good deal.

There are 3.8 metric litres in a US Gallon!


The only remotely good thing about fuel in the UK compared to the US is that
we generally have higher octane (= better quality) fuel available. eg. Our
"super unleaded" is 97 - 98 RON. Although it's hard to compare because the
octane of US fuel is quoted as (RON+MON)/2 (RON = research octane number,
MON = motor octane number). The R+M/2 method gives generally lower numbers
than RON alone.

> {Original Message removed}

2004\02\19@035629 by Howard Winter

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Mike,

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:55:30 -0600, Mike Hord wrote:

> >My car costs about 12p/mile for petrol in normal use, down to about 10.5p
> >on long journeys.
>
> What exactly is a long journey in the UK?

Well in the context I was using it there (improved fuel economy compared with normal driving around) I notice
it on journeys of 100 miles or so.

> I routinely drive 200-300 miles, and I only consider that to be a middling
> distance.  During college I would routinely drive 200 miles home to get
> something and then 200 miles back that same day.

Well I live just North of London, and it's about 300 miles from here to the border with Scotland, about 70
miles to the South Coast, so that's the "length" of England.    My car does about 350 miles on a full tank, so
I can get anywhere in England or Wales, and into the lowlands of Scotland without refuelling.  My sister lives
about 270 miles North of here, and I do that journey once or twice a year, and it can take just under 4 hours
on a good day, up to 7.5 hours on Christmas Eve!  Further than that, though, it tends to slow down because
there's not much Motorway and the Borders region is all narrow twisty roads, and beyond there is a forest of
speed-cameras!  Driving to my brother's in Edinburgh (about 400 miles) is basically a day of driving, so I
wouldn't do it unless I was staying at least a week.  Less than that, as long as I have nothing bulky to
carry, I'd fly, because that's cheaper then the fuel to drive, even including the car parking charges at Luton
airport, which is less than 20 miles from here.

In an average year I do about 15,000 miles, but it's been as high as 25,000.  Overall since I got my licence
(at 17) I've driven way over half a million miles, or to the Moon and back!

> Gas these days (around here at least) is around $1.60/gallon, or .82 UKP.
> At a little more than 4 liters per gallon, we get a pretty good deal.

Indeed!  Our government (of whatever political tendency) seem to see drivers as an easy way to collect money,
and the tax on fuel is an example of this.  Diesel used to be half the price (half the tax) of petrol, but
when the number of diesel cars started increasing they upped it to just above the price of petrol.  The only
"cheap" fuel is LPG (Liquefied Petroleum Gas) which is half the price of petrol, but isn't available very
widely, and of course you have to pay for the conversion and find space in the car for an extra tank, so not
many cars use it.  Quite a few busses do these days, though.

Cheers,

Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

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2004\02\19@040704 by Howard Winter

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Wouter,

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:28:36 +0100, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

> > What exactly is a long journey in the UK?
>
> Trying to use the motorway around Londen in the rush hour. Takes
> forever. NB read Pratchet/Gaiman to find out why.

LOL!  For those unfamiliar, the M25 is an oval-shaped Motorway that surrounds London - it's about 117 miles
round, and the rumours are that the lap record is just under an hour, held by a Porsche 911 and performed at
about 03:00 on a Sunday.  The Police keep an eye out for anyone attempting to beat that, these days.  It's
described as "the biggest carpark in Europe, because it is incredibly busy, and the journey from here to
Heathrow Airport can take between 25 minutes and 2 hours, depending on the traffic.  The trouble is that it's
so busy that anything happening causes traffic jams.  One common problem is hills - HGVs (Heavy Goods
Vehicles) have speed governors these days, and as a result you can get two of them in line abreast when it
comes to a hill, with one barely overtaking.  Since in most places there are only three lanes, a jam forms
behind as cars try to squeeze past them in one lane.  Before governors HGVs could have got a "run up" at
hills, but these days they can't.  I believe the governors (set at 90kph, 56mph) were introduced as a
quid-pro-quo when the maximum weight was increased from 33 to 38 tonnes.

Cheers,

Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

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2004\02\19@130527 by Dominic Stratten

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Hulatt, Jon" <RemoveMEjhulattTakeThisOuTspamMONSTEREUROPE.COM>
To: <spamBeGonePICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 8:46 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] Fuel price (was: Static and petrol vapours)

> I live ~50 miles north of london, and my parents live in north

> wales. It's ........

John - you must live pretty near to me and Peter Moreton (we only live 5
miles apart by the way - small world !!)

I'm based in Wellingborough just east of Northampton :-)

Dom

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2004\02\19@162808 by Hulatt, Jon

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A small world indeed- I live in Bedford, but I work in Wellingborough!!!

-----Original Message-----
From: Dominic Stratten
To: RemoveMEPICLISTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Sent: 19/02/2004 12:59
Subject: Re: [OT] Fuel price (was: Static and petrol vapours)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hulatt, Jon" <jhulattEraseMEspam.....MONSTEREUROPE.COM>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 8:46 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] Fuel price (was: Static and petrol vapours)

> I live ~50 miles north of london, and my parents live in north

> wales. It's ........

John - you must live pretty near to me and Peter Moreton (we only live 5
miles apart by the way - small world !!)

I'm based in Wellingborough just east of Northampton :-)

Dom

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2004\02\19@172208 by Mike Hord

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> > Gas these days (around here at least) is around $1.60/gallon, or .82
>UKP.
>At a little more than 4 liters per gallon,
> > we get a pretty good deal.
>
>There are 3.8 metric litres in a US Gallon!

Yah, I noticed that after I wrote it.  Back of the mind calculation...
>
>The only remotely good thing about fuel in the UK compared to the US is
>that
>we generally have higher octane (= better quality) fuel available. eg. Our
>"super unleaded" is 97 - 98 RON. Although it's hard to compare because the
>octane of US fuel is quoted as (RON+MON)/2 (RON = research octane number,
>MON = motor octane number). The R+M/2 method gives generally lower numbers
>than RON alone.

Here in Iowa, midwest US, corn is a HUGE cash crop, and so ethanol is big
business.
This is the only place I've ever seen where higher octane gas is actually
cheaper
than the lower octane stuff.

Mike H.

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2004\02\19@172827 by Mike Hord

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>In an average year I do about 15,000 miles, but it's been as high as
>25,000.  Overall since I got my licence (at 17) I've driven way over half a
>million miles, or to the Moon and back!

In 8 years I've tallied over 150k.  My current car just turned for
with 100,000 on the odometer.

I think it says something about the different mentalities of
Americans.  Here we don't even really have the option of mass
transit, most places.

Not that I'm in favor of it, mind you, I hate driving.  It's really
is the cheapest way to get around, especially if you fly from
one "end-of-route" airport to another.  To fly out of Minneapolis
(nearest big metro area, 200 miles north) to anywhere I would
go to visit family costs at least $300 per person, if you're lucky.
Add to that drive time and parking and hitchhiking looks better
and better!

Mike H.

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