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'[OT] Free Energy Hijacked from: "The Gift of Inven'
2013\09\18@163149 by YES NOPE9

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If you can demonstrate *free energy* I will give you $5000 USD.
And I will use my free energy to power some HyperLoops.
Gus


On Sep 18, 2013, at 5:48 AM, Yigit Turgut wrote:

And you need to pay for electricity as well but there exists free energy.
Now who is ridiculous ?


On Wed, Sep 18, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Mike Harrison <spam_OUTmikeTakeThisOuTspamwhitewing.co.uk>wrote:

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2013\09\18@181545 by Isaac M. Bavaresco

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I think the term "free energy" (as in free beer) can be seen as energy you pay once for the generator and then use the energy until it amortizes itself and beyond.

My father bought a 60kVA hidroeletric turbine for our farm over 33 years ago.
It cost perhaps several 10k or a few 100k dollars at the time but it is running almost for free since then.

My maternal grandfather built his own hidroelectric turbine from scrap metal and surplus parts. What can be more free than this?


YES NOPE9 <.....yesKILLspamspam@spam@nope9.com> escreveu:
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2013\09\18@195818 by RussellMc

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> If you can demonstrate *free energy* I will give you $5000 USD.
> And I will use my free energy to power some HyperLoops.

1.  Please do not let this thread turn into a trolling or a flaming session..

2.  By using solar PV to heat hot water* and thus replace an
equivalent amount of grid energy I can achieve a payback period of
about 5 years with no subsidies. Also no battery, no grid tie or other
inverter. Very simple pseudo MPPT. (Actual panel only payback time is
about 2.5 years)

After that the energy is free.
Do I qualify for the $5000 subsidy?


* This is an unintuitive use of solar PV but has a number of
advantages over solar therml and makes more economic sense than any PV
alternatives I've seen so far.

             Russell
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2013\09\18@202215 by James Cameron

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On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 11:57:34AM +1200, RussellMc wrote:
> 2.  By using solar PV to heat hot water* and thus replace an
> equivalent amount of grid energy I can achieve a payback period of
> about 5 years with no subsidies. Also no battery, no grid tie or other
> inverter. Very simple pseudo MPPT. (Actual panel only payback time is
> about 2.5 years)
>
> After that the energy is free.
> Do I qualify for the $5000 subsidy?
>
>
> * This is an unintuitive use of solar PV but has a number of
> advantages over solar therml and makes more economic sense than any PV
> alternatives I've seen so far.

Sounds interesting.  Have you written this up anywhere?  My gut feel
is that 250 W during sun delivered into an insulated water container
would certainly achieve useful storage.  Response to overtemperature
is easy; open the circuit.  I've seen the thermal transmission and
overtemperature controls on solar thermal and found them complex.

-- James Cameron
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2013\09\18@205107 by John Gardner

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Russell -

How much of the heat energy supplied to the hot water reservoir

is direct solar heat? None? Any?

  Jack
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2013\09\19@014647 by RussellMc

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On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 11:57:34AM +1200, RussellMc wrote:
> > 2.  By using solar PV to heat hot water* and thus replace an
> > equivalent amount of grid energy I can achieve a payback period of
> > about 5 years with no subsidies. Also no battery, no grid tie or other
> > inverter. Very simple pseudo MPPT. (Actual panel only payback time is
> > about 2.5 years)

> > * This is an unintuitive use of solar PV but has a number of
> > advantages over solar thermal and makes more economic sense than any PV
> > alternatives I've seen so far.

On 19 September 2013 12:21, James Cameron <.....quozlKILLspamspam.....laptop.org> wrote:
> Sounds interesting.  Have you written this up anywhere?

Only the calculations to see how it proved out *BUT* somebody else has.
When I thought of it as a viable means of energy storage and grid
offsetting I realised that the idea was hardly original and that many
others would have considered it BUT I did not expecting a full blown
NZ paper on it. A friend recently came across one written in June this
year. See below.

> My gut feel
> is that 250 W during sun delivered into an insulated water container
> would certainly achieve useful storage.  Response to over temperature
> is easy; open the circuit.  I've seen the thermal transmission and
> over temperature controls on solar thermal and found them complex.

As long as you max input is less than you would otherwise put in in a
day or so then there is no problem.If you have excess energy you can
just turn the PV energy source off - unlike with some solar thermal
systems which will be damaged if you do not dissipate the energy
elsewhere. (I have about 9 such which I got free after parts of some
melted in the sun :-) ).

If you have too much energy you can eg run your freezer from it with
an inverter (depending on practical aspects.) If PV energy ALWAYS
exceeds cooling load averaged over say 2 or 3 days then you can island
a chest freezer and run it solely on PV with any excess going to water
heating. As long as your freezer can withstand the longest period that
PV will not deliver enough cooling energy then this is workable. It
would be easy to have an automated switchover between either grid or
PC island although odds are there will be regulatory issues. Note that
this does NOT involve grid tie at all.
Worst case you could have the freezer manually unpluggable and
transferable en extremis. If you are away for a weekend the freezer
will not be being opened and a properly insulated one should last 2 or
3 days. If necessary add thermal mass (add water inside freezing
space) as a thermal buffer.

The water heating works well $ wise because you need no battery, no
grid tie inverter and indeed no inverter if you are happy to have a
heater element rated AT panel peak power voltage. You then add pseudo
MPPT which simply PWM's the resistive element onto the panel to
maintain the panel at Vmp. It is claimed that this allows tracking
within about 1.5% of true MPPT. Looking at typical MPPT and pseudo
MPPT curves I believe that by adding a slight current sense component
to the maintained panel voltage that even closer tracking can be
obtained. During PWM off periods the panel voltage is maintained close
to Vmppt with "adequate capacitance". I've priced good quality caps
with adequate ripple current ratings and believe that the cost of
requisite capacitors is modest compared to eg panel costs.  Getting 25
year lifetimes wit electrolytic capacitors in heavy ripple
applications would be "challenging" [tm] no matter what Arrhenius
says, but DCF calculations are hardly affected by returns beyond 15
years at typical interest rate and are reasonably insensitive at 10
years. More on that anon if the discussion develops.

If you are willing to go to a tapped or multi resistor element then
pseudo MPPT can be achieved with FETs and resistors alone. More steps
= closer tracking to actual MPPT curve.

PV versus thermal = no header tanks, pipes, plumbing,ease of control,
lower roof loadings, easier maintenance, .... .
Lower energy conversion efficiency.
Top thermal solar can achieve around 75%+ efficiency

Report below. They go into great detail in some areas and less than I
have in others.
A competent friend of mine takes issue with some of their assertions.
______________________

University of Otago, NZ report June 2013

http://www.epecentre.ac.nz/docs/media/Wood_EEA_2013_PV.pdf

They say:

Water heating is not a well established option for PV panels. However,
connecting the PV

panels to the heating element, and storing the energy as heat for use
in the evening or the

following morning has some advantages over grid connection. Grid
connection equipment

and compliance costs are avoided, and higher value avoided energy
usage results. PV based

water heating has no pumps, plumbing, freezing and boiling issues, is
potentially simpler to

install than a thermal collector based system, and should require less
maintenance. However,

much greater roof area is required, in summer excess energy goes
un-utilised, and currently

there is no established standard for this sort of system. Nevertheless
it is included in this

paper, as the idea has merit. Consistent with solar thermal systems,
the size of the system is

very important - too many panels and the un-utilised summer energy
reduces the return on

capital, while too few results in the fixed installation costs
reducing the return



http://www.epecentre.ac.nz/docs/media/Wood_EEA_2013_PV.pdf

June 2013



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2013\09\19@014851 by RussellMc

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> How much of the heat energy supplied to the hot water reservoir
>
> is direct solar heat? None? Any?

As I describe it in basic form = none.

If you use the panel as a thermal heater as well you can get both.

And cooling a PV panel gives up to 10% more power out.

   R
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2013\09\19@020539 by Yigit Turgut

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I was offered much much much....much more than 5K to demonstrate but I
didn't accept it, what makes you think that I will accept your -5k- ? (:

Conservation of energy is the biggest lie of science history ; it boils
down to ; you can only get what you give ; which is not true....

Information will comes to you already ; only when you are ready. Obviously
you are not (:

Peace out.
y.


On Wed, Sep 18, 2013 at 10:31 PM, YES NOPE9 <EraseMEyesspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTnope9.com> wrote:

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2013\09\19@022132 by cdb

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Here are some links.

Sorry, neither littleurl or tinyurl will let me convert the link below to something nice. :(

Page 41 of
<books.google.pl/books?id=c9F4ebT55DYC&pg=PP1&dq=popular+science+feb
ruary+1995&hl=en&ei=IsykS77UL9P6_AbEoYmYCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&re
snum=5&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=popular%20science%20february%201995&f=fa
lse>

http://www.immersun.co.uk/

Sadly many states in Australia are now banning electric water systems, most for new properties, but some for renovation work as well.  Gas and thermal solar, not sure about heat pump technology though.

Colin
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2013\09\19@034451 by RussellMc

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On 19 September 2013 18:21, cdb <KILLspamcolinKILLspamspambtech-online.co.uk> wrote:
> Here are some links.

Try:  http://bit.ly/1eTeA6v

The others probably did not like the <...> encapsulation (assuming it
was there when you trued.
What is that link meant to be about (many articles covered)
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2013\09\19@051745 by cdb

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On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 19:44:09 +1200, RussellMc wrote:
:: What is that link meant to be about (many articles covered)

Page 41 shows a system proposed and patented by

Hunter Fanney and Brian Dougherty of the National Institute of Standards and Technology in Gaithersburg MD (not sure which state that is). The system shows a standard hot water tank with multiple heating elements, each element has a difference electrical resistance.  There is in their version a uP which (strangely) has a PV sensor to sense sunlight (I assume infra red or ultra violet) , this switches the PV panel voltage to whichever series of heater elements would provide the best match to th ePV panel at that time. The test rig had a 4m2 PV arrary which in their estimates would provide 60% of the hot water used by a family of 4. Unfortunately they do not say how much that family would use, nor do they state which period of time they used. They do go onto say they were going to build a full size PV hot water heater which would be studied over 1995/1996.

There is another US authority which has a study and paper on it, but I can't actually find it at this moment.  http://www.nist.gov/el/

Colin
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2013\09\20@175658 by cdb

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I've just found an extract with links for the  Wisconsin University/NIST PV proposal, which is what page 41 of the magazine is 'lifted' from..

http://sel.me.wisc.edu/trnsys/downloads/trnsedapps/demos/pvsdhw.htm

Colin
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2013\09\20@204111 by Allen Mulvey

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Decades ago a friend of mine did a 2 stage water heating
system like this using his wood stove. A coil of pipe in the
stove percolated hot water through the first tank. The
second tank was used mostly for when the fire went out. It
isn't quite as simple as it seems though. The size of the
second tank is important. If it is too big it just acts like
a "cooling off" place and a lot of the energy is lost. If it
is too small it can't meet demand when the fire is out.
Today, with much better materials, especially insulation, it
probably wouldn't be nearly so hard.

Allen

> {Original Message removed}

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