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'[OT] Fighting Compass bank over overdraft fees'
2008\04\28@133410 by Vitaliy

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What do you do, when a bank charges you $84 in overdraft fees, for what
initially is a $0.56 overdraft?

This is a secondary account that I use to send money overseas (ATM fees are
cheaper than Western Union), so it took me a while to realize what happened.
Apparently, there was the 56 cent overdraft, which resulted in a $38
"extended overdraft fee", plus $7 per day for every day the account balance
remained negative.

I called the bank, and they waived the $38 fee, but refused to do anything
about the remaining $46. Obviously they won't close the account while it has
a negative balance, and for every day it remains in the negative, I get
charged $7.

Research on Google reveals that this is not an isolated incident. I hate to
reward bad business practices, any suggestions?

Vitaliy



2008\04\28@135751 by Picbits Sales

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We've had this problem for years in the UK.

There has been a legal case where the banks have lost in the last few days
which hopefully paves the way for lots of refunds for UK consumers.

Here's a write up but beware of bad language .....

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=901&Itemid=59

{Original Message removed}

2008\04\28@140025 by Funny NYPD

picon face
why not use paypal. It is fast and convenient.

Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, New Bedford, MA, http://www.AuElectronics.com



{Original Message removed}

2008\04\28@140715 by Matt Pobursky

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I would change banks if at all possible. I would also send a high officer
of the bank a letter stating why you pulled your accounts too.

My current bank gives me free overdraft protection up to $500 on each of my
two accounts that I can write checks against. They also will email me and
call me if I have an overdraft situation which most of the time allows me
to transfer money to that account before close of business that day and
avoid the overdraft altogether.

Frankly, I think banking in the U.S. is terrible overall. Most of them took
customer service lessons from the big software houses and the mafia, I
think.

I'm very happy to have the bank I'm with now (and have been for almost 20
years). They are a great regional bank and not one of the "big guys".
Unfortunately, they are getting rarer and rarer.

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems


On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:32:29 -0700, Vitaliy wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\04\28@152914 by Paul Hutchinson

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: spam_OUTpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu On Behalf Of Vitaliy
> Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 1:32 PM
>
> What do you do, when a bank charges you $84 in overdraft fees, for what
> initially is a $0.56 overdraft?

Here's some good advice from TheStreet.com and the US Federal Reserve Bank.
www.thestreet.com/funds/saving-money/10401137.html
http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/bounce/

I'm not sure which is worse, the way US banks handled this 30 years ago or
the way it is now. In the past they'd bounce my check and all further checks
with a bounce fee for each plus I'd get bounced transaction fees from each
recipient who was denied (also sometimes bad credit reports from those
payees). Now they consider it a courtesy to overdraw the account so that you
don't get fees and bad credit reports from the recipients but, instead you
get overdraft fees added daily. IME, the total dollar amounts of fines has
been roughly the same but with the new system there is no danger of bad
credit reports from the payees.

Changing banks can help but, I've done that in the past only to have the new
bank's fees move up to the same level as the old bank within a year. The
only good solution I've found is to think like an accountant and monitor the
account balance very carefully so it never goes negative.

Paul Hutch

{Quote hidden}

2008\04\28@162047 by Harold Hallikainen

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Banks are fun! A friend runs a business that accepts credit cards. He
received a $6k order from Singapore. He checked with the credit card
company, and they said the card was good. He shipped the order. Several
months later, they took the $6k back out of his bank account because the
card had been reported stolen. So, he's out the $6k. On top of that,
because of this one bad charge, he has a bad "chargeback ratio," so they
will not release any money to him from his credit card sales until either
six months or $100,000 has been accumulated (I guess that fixes the
ratio).

Banks are fun!

Harold



--
FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com - Advertising
opportunities available!

2008\04\28@165541 by Bob Axtell

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Funny NYPD wrote:
> why not use paypal. It is fast and convenient.
>
>  Funny N.
> Au Group Electronics, New Bedford, MA, http://www.AuElectronics.com
>  
Paypal has potholes even deeper than Compass bank. The only way to use
Paypal is with a
"hardened" credit card, such as those from ACE Check Cashing centers.
Paypal, when it makes
a mistake, will gouge you as far as they can, and (somehow) can force
credit cards attached to
bank accounts to cough up money regardless.

EBay, who owns Paypal, is very deeply steeped in "preventing fraud", so
they commit their OWN
version of it. Here's what happened to my wife:

She has a Paypal account which was attached to her debit card, which she
used to purchase trinkets
and makeup over EBay. She'd never sold anything on EBay in her life. One
day, she got a threatening
email from a stranger, claiming that she had sold him a used notebook
PC, and that he had won the auction.
It was such an elaborate hoax I laughed and told her to ignore it. Two
weeks later, EBay made a $1400 claim
against Lois's paypal account, and paypal paid, even though there was
NOT $1400 in the bank account!
But the bank honored it, causing an account overdraft!

I took a day off work, finally contacted somebody at EBay that realized
there was a problem. I told them
if the money was NOT returned in 2 days, I would file  formal fraud
charges at the police station against
EBay and Paypal. In two days the money was returned. No apology or
explanation, it was just returned
into the paypal account, then into the debit card, then into the bank
account.

Since that time, I was told by a reputable financial person that Paypal
had a terrible reputation for things
like this, and that the Feds had almost closed their doors just before
EBay purchased them.

Here is how you can use PayPal safely:

1. Never- EVER-.give Paypal direct bank account access. Use a CC.

2. The CC should NOT be a DEBIT card. It should be an ACE Check Cashing
Center "put the money
in first" card.

3. Never purchase anything from Sudan, Nigeria, or most other African
states.


--Bob A

2008\04\28@170250 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> I'm not sure which is worse, the way US banks handled this 30 years ago or
> the way it is now.

Same problem remains: Your the system works the wrong way. In my country
(and AFAIK all of continental Europe) cheques are a thing of the past
(and were not very popular anyway). A transaction is initiated by me
ordering my bank to transfer money to account 1234567 of mr A. BCDE. If
this is within my own country I don't even have to know which bank holds
that account, if it is within the EC euro zone I have to add some
details (account IBAN and BIC codes). Cost is almost zero (think 0.05).
At the moment I order the transaction I can check if I have enough
credit, or maybe I must simultaneously transfer from my savings account
to my main account. That gets done only the next day, but I can schedule
 the other transaction after that if I want to. No way I will be
surprised by an overdraw. (OK, I can be a bit surprised if I forgot how
much I ordered by Credit Card, or from companies that are allowed (by
me) to withdraw from my account, but in those cases I could have
remembered).

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2008\04\29@005704 by Vitaliy

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Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> Same problem remains: Your the system works the wrong way. In my country
> (and AFAIK all of continental Europe) cheques are a thing of the past
> (and were not very popular anyway). A transaction is initiated by me
> ordering my bank to transfer money to account 1234567 of mr A. BCDE. If
> this is within my own country I don't even have to know which bank holds
> that account, if it is within the EC euro zone I have to add some
> details (account IBAN and BIC codes). Cost is almost zero (think 0.05).
> At the moment I order the transaction I can check if I have enough
> credit, or maybe I must simultaneously transfer from my savings account
> to my main account. That gets done only the next day, but I can schedule
>  the other transaction after that if I want to. No way I will be
> surprised by an overdraw. (OK, I can be a bit surprised if I forgot how
> much I ordered by Credit Card, or from companies that are allowed (by
> me) to withdraw from my account, but in those cases I could have
> remembered).

Wouter, you're a hypocrite. When I made a negative comment about the way the
European economy is being managed, you threw a hissy fit and called me a
troll. And here you are, dissing the US banking system. :-)

However, I agree that the US banking system sucks compared to what you guys
have on the other side of the pond (based on what you and other Europeans I
know have said). Making an international wire transfer is a ridiculously
time-consuming, expensive, and unreliable process. Sadly, it may take
another 9/11 for the banks to finally convert from the antiquated
paper-based systems.

Vitaliy

2008\04\29@011121 by Vitaliy

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Matt Pobursky wrote:
>I would change banks if at all possible.

My other accounts are with Wells Fargo (generally happy with them). This one
I got because of their promise of "Free ATMs Anywhere" and the "ATM on Mars"
commercial, which as of January 1, 2008 they no longer offer -- and they
even started charging $2 if you use other banks' ATM (like most US banks).

Even though I do not intend to pay $50 (or however much it is now) for a
56-cent overdraft, and I will definitely not do business with Compass bank,
my main worry is that they will submit the account to collections, and
damage my credit history. Any way to prevent that from happening?

> I would also send a high officer
> of the bank a letter stating why you pulled your accounts too.

What good will that do? Aren't the high officers the ones responsible for
the moronic policies?

The folks at the bank were nice, but powerless to do anything (they are not
authorized to waive fees). I would much rather vote with my dollar, and tell
everyone I know to do the same, with the hope that eventually Compass will
ether come to its senses, or cease to exist. ;-)

Vitaliy

2008\04\29@024119 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> Wouter, you're a hypocrite. When I made a negative comment about the way the
> European economy is being managed, you threw a hissy fit and called me a
> troll. And here you are, dissing the US banking system. :-)

did I? I don't remember, but if I did I was right, of course [ big ;) ].

> However, I agree that the US banking system sucks

On the positive side: because your system sucks something like PayPal
has emerged, which sucks even more, but is still very useful.

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2008\04\29@072132 by Rich

picon face
That's Crazy!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harold Hallikainen" <.....haroldKILLspamspam@spam@hallikainen.org>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclistspamKILLspammit.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Fighting Compass bank over overdraft fees


{Quote hidden}

> --

2008\04\29@072505 by Rich

picon face
Why not go after the dude who made the purchase?  Why not go after the
credit card company?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Picbits Sales" <.....salesKILLspamspam.....picbits.co.uk>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <EraseMEpiclistspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmit.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Fighting Compass bank over overdraft fees


{Quote hidden}

>> --

2008\04\29@091151 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
I use USAA ( https://www.usaa.com ). They are a completely online bank
(unless you live in Texas, there are no branches you can visit).

However, their service is very good, I've had no problems, AND they
will reimburse ATM fees up to $15 per month. They do this so that they
do not need to have ATMs of their own.

Nominally, they are a bank for families of US military personnel.
However, only some of their products are restricted to such people.
Their normal savings and checking accounts are open to the general
public.

Sean


On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 7:24 AM, Rich <KILLspamrgrazia1KILLspamspamrochester.rr.com> wrote:
> Why not go after the dude who made the purchase?  Why not go after the
>  credit card company?
>
> {Original Message removed}

2008\04\29@155739 by Nate Duehr

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Nope, normal.  Similar "holdbacks" recently pushed an entire airline
into bankruptcy.

http://www.frontierairlines.com/restructure/index.html

Prior to the raised holdbacks, the airline was cash-weak, but revenues
were strong and the company was proud they weren't failing like other
lower-quality airlines.  They were paying their bills, just fine.

They are also much-liked by a lot of travelers.  In fact, I sure wish
the U.S. Government hadn't "bailed out" airlines like United after 9/11.

Get on a United flight, and watch the staff and their attitudes versus a
Frontier flight any day of the week.

It would have been far better to let them go under and let the
management of airlines like Frontier take over their aircraft leases,
employees, etc... and run a much better airline.

But that's water long under the bridge.

The situation is this:

- U.S. Banks gave out billions in bad loans via mortgages and credit
cards to people who should have never had them.

- U.S. Banks start to go bankrupt by reaping what they sowed.

- U.S. Banks change their rules -- NOT in how they hand out consumer
credit, but instead start "holding" money for the businesses in case the
credit THEY handed out, was bad debt.

Utterly rediculous, unethical, and slimy.

Nate

Rich wrote:
> That's Crazy!
>
> {Original Message removed}

2008\04\29@160113 by Nate Duehr

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Sean Breheny wrote:
> I use USAA ( https://www.usaa.com ). They are a completely online bank
> (unless you live in Texas, there are no branches you can visit).

Another excellent option in many places is Credit Unions.  Better rates,
"member owned" (they're still run by a board that can be good or bad at
banking), and often they have virtually no fees for anything.

People hear "Credit Union" and think of the 80's when it was difficult
to join such an organization.  The rules about membership were lightened
up on over a decade ago, and many times all you need to do to "qualify"
is be an employee in a certain industry, or live in a particular city.
If you leave the company that got you on the qualification list, or move
out of the city, your membership is NOT revoked.

Additionally, if you think they're doing a really bad job, you at least
have a VOTE in who's running the organization.  Try doing that at a
traditional bank.

Nate

2008\04\29@211145 by Gerhard Fiedler

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Harold Hallikainen wrote:

> Banks are fun! A friend runs a business that accepts credit cards. He
> received a $6k order from Singapore. He checked with the credit card
> company, and they said the card was good. He shipped the order. Several
> months later, they took the $6k back out of his bank account because the
> card had been reported stolen. So, he's out the $6k. On top of that,
> because of this one bad charge, he has a bad "chargeback ratio," so they
> will not release any money to him from his credit card sales until either
> six months or $100,000 has been accumulated (I guess that fixes the
> ratio).

I'm not sure what to think about this complaint... While I know it can be a
pain when it hits you, most of the incidents like the above and what
Vitaliy is now passing through are exactly according to the rules people
read (did they, no?) when opening such accounts. It seems most people don't
get too upset when they open an account and read that there is a $48
overdraft fee... that is only for the losers, right? And I'm no loser,
right? :)

This is like gambling in a government lottery. Some have called this a tax
for... hm, they used a non-PC term here, I'll just say "special type of
fun". Same thing with these bank fees... I select a bank with a fee
structure that suits me. I've been with banks that are quite inexpensive
but charge extremely high fees for anything out of the line. Well, I
thought about it, and thought that it's worth it to make sure I don't go
out of the line. The ones who do pay part of my fees there. If you think
you can't make certain you don't, use another bank with a more "forgiving"
fee structure. It's all about clear rules and freedom of choice. (Free
market, so to speak... :)

Same thing with credit cards. There is a cost to it, both for the one who
has one and for the one who accepts CC payments. AFAIK the incident above
is fully according to their normal rules that should be known to everybody
who accepts CCs. People can't have it both ways... most sure like that they
can complain to their CC company and cancel a payment 2 months later, or
just tell them that their card was lost and don't have to pay anything that
was bought with that card. But that then translates to a burden on the
other side... No free lunch, at least not when it's about finances.

Now, as Wouter says, the reason why CCs are so necessary in the USA is
another story :)

Gerhard

2008\04\29@222811 by Cedric Chang

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Wow.... you opened my eyes, Gerhard
Thanks for the comment.   I think I was living in dreamland before.
cc


On Apr 29, 2008, at 7:11 PM, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:

Harold Hallikainen wrote:

{Quote hidden}

I'm not sure what to think about this complaint... While I know it  
can be a
pain when it hits you, most of the incidents like the above and what
Vitaliy is now passing through are exactly according to the rules people
read (did they, no?) when opening such accounts. It seems most people  
don't
get too upset when they open an account and read that there is a $48
overdraft fee... that is only for the losers, right? And I'm no loser,
right? :)

This is like gambling in a government lottery. Some have called this  
a tax
for... hm, they used a non-PC term here, I'll just say "special type of
fun". Same thing with these bank fees... I select a bank with a fee
structure that suits me. I've been with banks that are quite inexpensive
but charge extremely high fees for anything out of the line. Well, I
thought about it, and thought that it's worth it to make sure I don't go
out of the line. The ones who do pay part of my fees there. If you think
you can't make certain you don't, use another bank with a more  
"forgiving"
fee structure. It's all about clear rules and freedom of choice. (Free
market, so to speak... :)

Same thing with credit cards. There is a cost to it, both for the one  
who
has one and for the one who accepts CC payments. AFAIK the incident  
above
is fully according to their normal rules that should be known to  
everybody
who accepts CCs. People can't have it both ways... most sure like  
that they
can complain to their CC company and cancel a payment 2 months later, or
just tell them that their card was lost and don't have to pay  
anything that
was bought with that card. But that then translates to a burden on the
other side... No free lunch, at least not when it's about finances.

Now, as Wouter says, the reason why CCs are so necessary in the USA is
another story :)

Gerhard

2008\04\30@080642 by Derward Myrick

picon face
Nate,  this is how most Banks in the US have been
for the last 40+ years..

Utterly rediculous, unethical, and slimy.

Derward


\
{Original Message removed}

2008\04\30@082934 by Apptech

face
flavicon
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> Nate,  this is how most Banks in the US have been
> for the last 40+ years..
>
> Utterly rediculous, unethical, and slimy.

You want to try dealing with tow truck companies then :-).
I visited one today to 'give them a chance' to behave
decently.
All very friendly and polite but no joy.
I had little hope that there would be.
My son and friends had a car towed a few days ago from a car
park, when they had an authorisation ticket from a
restaurant - BUT it didn't apply to that space - BUT it was
impossible to tell. $200 for a perhaps 2 mile tow plus
having to wait 30 minutes plus for them to turn up.

I'm hoping the mayor, tv "fair go" program, local MP, ...
may be interested. I suspect it's run as a honey pot money
maker. We'll see.
I rechecked the signs before visiting the tow company and am
certain of the impossibility of telling which space is
"safe" to park in.
Needless to say I have copious photos of the scene of the
crime :-).



       Russell


2008\04\30@085900 by William Bulley

picon face
According to "Nate Duehr" <RemoveMEnateTakeThisOuTspamnatetech.com>:
>
> Utterly rediculous, unethical, and slimy.

For an interesting treatise on the American banking system
complete with extensive history and copious references, see:

  <http://books.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/26/1432203>

That review of the book in question is interesting in and of
itself.  The book reads like a novel - a mystery novel.  It
has good detail, but it is not a technical (as in accounting)
book.  It is a tell-all.  Very revealing.  Highly recommended.

Regards,

web...

--
William Bulley                     Email: spamBeGonewebspamBeGonespamumich.edu

2008\04\30@170508 by Aaron

picon face


Vitaliy wrote:
> Even though I do not intend to pay $50 (or however much it is now) for a
> 56-cent overdraft, and I will definitely not do business with Compass bank,
> my main worry is that they will submit the account to collections, and
> damage my credit history. Any way to prevent that from happening?
>  

My guess is that they will report it to Chexsystems.  Most banks here in
the US pull a Chex report when you go to open a new account.  This could
significantly hinder your future efforts to open accounts with other
institutions.

Aaron

2008\04\30@223309 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Aaron wrote:
> Vitaliy wrote:
>> Even though I do not intend to pay $50 (or however much it is now) for a
>> 56-cent overdraft, and I will definitely not do business with Compass
>> bank,
>> my main worry is that they will submit the account to collections, and
>> damage my credit history. Any way to prevent that from happening?
>>
>
> My guess is that they will report it to Chexsystems.  Most banks here in
> the US pull a Chex report when you go to open a new account.  This could
> significantly hinder your future efforts to open accounts with other
> institutions.

I better open a new account fast, then. Thanks Aaron. :)

Vitaliy

2008\04\30@232026 by David VanHorn

picon face
I always like the part in their "agreement" where they say that they
can change the rules at any time, without notice to you, or some such
equivalent.


Kinda like Wisconsin, where they can't throw you out of a rental
because you're black, but they can for no reason at all.   How dumb do
you have to be to get convicted of discrimination under THAT system?

Grr.

2008\04\30@235507 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
>I always like the part in their "agreement" where they say
>that they
> can change the rules at any time, without notice to you,
> or some such
> equivalent.

Like LinkedIn, which is free at a basic level, but says in
the agreement fine print that they can decide to charge you
at any time. They don't say how much or how long the charge
applies for eg you just bought a 10 year sub at $100/year -
please pay all now. I suspect they'd actually go easy on
this rule. But, maybe they'll sell it to uSoft and ... .


       Russell


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