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'[OT] Favourite Schematic/Layout Designer?'
2009\01\23@225227 by solarwind

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Hey all, I know that Eagle is a very popular schematic/layout designer
or whatever you call them. However, I find its user interface highly
unintuitive and its library is very poorly managed. I thought it was
just me but then I googled and many people have this opinion.

Do you guys use any other software for this purpose? All I want to do
is design simple schematics and PCBs so I can print it out and
transfer it to a copper clad board to etch my own PCB. Eagle does all
this, but as I said, I dislike the user interface.

I don't care if the software is free or not. If anyone would care to
recommend other software, I would really appreciate it.

--
solarwind

2009\01\23@232959 by cdb

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face


:: Do you guys use any other software for this purpose? All I want to
:: do
:: is design simple schematics and PCBs so I can print it out and
:: transfer it to a copper clad board to etch my own PCB. Eagle does
:: all
:: this, but as I said, I dislike the user interface.

I use AutotraxEDA - about to be updated to a dot NET architecture
called DeX - it does have some quirks, but making parts and footprints
are easy.

AT doesn't have a very good autorouter, but you van plug in a 3rd
party one. DeX will have a reasonable autotrouter.

http://www.kov.com      - forum -
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/autotrax/

There is a free CAD software I think called KiKad from France, it
isn't bad.

Proteus I quite like especially as has the option of being able to
simulate uController code - unfortunately the pricing of this software
for hobby or semi pro use is horrendous unless you can write it off
against tax.

Colin
--
cdb, spam_OUTcolinTakeThisOuTspambtech-online.co.uk on 24/01/2009

Web presence: http://www.btech-online.co.uk  

Hosted by:  http://www.1and1.co.uk/?k_id=7988359







2009\01\23@235820 by Vitaliy

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"solarwind" wrote:
> Hey all, I know that Eagle is a very popular schematic/layout designer
> or whatever you call them. However, I find its user interface highly
> unintuitive and its library is very poorly managed. I thought it was
> just me but then I googled and many people have this opinion.
>
> Do you guys use any other software for this purpose? All I want to do
> is design simple schematics and PCBs so I can print it out and
> transfer it to a copper clad board to etch my own PCB. Eagle does all
> this, but as I said, I dislike the user interface.
>
> I don't care if the software is free or not. If anyone would care to
> recommend other software, I would really appreciate it.

Solarwind, haven't numerous people warn you that software piracy is frowned
upon around these parts?

Every software package has its problems. It may take more time to learn how
to get the results you want in EAGLE, but the Lite version is free, and many
people on this list use the full version (which for all intents and purposes
is no different than the Lite version) for real commercial projects. It's
plenty good for hobby use, and you don't have to crack anything.

I've helped three people with no prior experience with PCB layout learn
EAGLE, and it's not that hard -- it just takes a little bit of work.

Vitaliy

2009\01\24@003336 by solarwind

picon face
On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 11:56 PM, Vitaliy <.....spamKILLspamspam@spam@maksimov.org> wrote:
> Solarwind, haven't numerous people warn you that software piracy is frowned
> upon around these parts?

Do I seem like I give a flying **** about what these people are so
generously "warning" me on?

I did not mention piracy. I just stated that money is not a concern
for this :) Take it for its face value - don't try to think too much.

> Every software package has its problems. It may take more time to learn how
> to get the results you want in EAGLE, but the Lite version is free, and many
> people on this list use the full version (which for all intents and purposes
> is no different than the Lite version) for real commercial projects. It's
> plenty good for hobby use, and you don't have to crack anything.

Never said anything about "crack"

> I've helped three people with no prior experience with PCB layout learn
> EAGLE, and it's not that hard -- it just takes a little bit of work.
>
> Vitaliy

--
solarwind

2009\01\24@013216 by apptech

face
flavicon
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> Do I seem like ...
...
> Never said anything about "crack"
...

Lest you missed it, there was some good technical content in there about
relative ease of use of Eable and it's efficiacy and just possibly an
adumbration re available quality assistance.
Shame to miss these things amongst the noise.
Condensed:

{Quote hidden}

2009\01\24@103610 by alan smith

picon face
I cut my teeth on....drawing schematics by hand on vellum and doing boards with red and blue mylar tape...the Bishops Graphics book...that was everyones reference in the day

Then I started doing the boards and schematics on something like AutoCAD, but since it wasnt designed for boards, limited sucess.

Then moved to SMARTwork for boards..did a reasonable job.

OrCAD arrived on the scene.  That was a wonderful transistion, making real library symbols, and did a great job.  I used the DOS version for many years.

Over the years...

ViewDraw
Newer version of OrCAD, windows based
Cadence
Mentor...ok that was Viewdraw but then they bought them
PADS (several versions)
Explorer
Altium
EAGLE

All of them...have a learning curve.  You have to pick one and stick with it and just understand how it works.  Sure when I first started using Eagle some 5 years ago, it was frustrating on some things but very easy on others as compared to the other packages I had used over the years.

And, drawing a schematic is the easy part.  Doing a good PCB layout is the hardpart. The best engineers are those who have done both, because then when doing a schematic they keep the layout in mind in as much as what components are used, an what packages, etc.

Presently, I use Eagle for all my consulting and PADs in the day job.  Yep, still have the day job...guess im a lucky one.







--- On Fri, 1/23/09, cdb <colinspamKILLspambtech-online.co.uk> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> --

2009\01\24@111144 by Derward Myrick

picon face

----- Original Message -----
From: "alan smith" <@spam@micro_eng2KILLspamspamyahoo.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <KILLspampiclistKILLspamspammit.edu>
Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] Favourite Schematic/Layout Designer?


{Quote hidden}

Alan, I started to layout my own boards using tape just like you and I
started in
1961.

As what I use below is for a small business and does what I need.

I have used :  Mental Automation (SuperPCB v3.1 ) since about 1993 and like
it.

You can check here,  http://www.mentala.com/index.html

Derward myrick  KD5WWI











2009\01\24@125228 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Jan 24, 2009, at 7:35 AM, alan smith wrote:
>> I find [EAGLE's] user interface highly unintuitive and its library  
>> is very poorly managed. I thought it was just me but then I googled  
>> and many people have this opinion.

> All of them...have a learning curve.

That's about what I found.  People complain about the EAGLE learning  
curve, but there seem to be an equal number of complaints about the  
learning curve on ANY near-professional grade Schematic/PCB package.  
The only ones where I've heard "good" things about the UI have been  
drawing-tool based things that don't seem to have any electrical  
sanity features included (even beyond not having an associated  
schematic editor.) (eg: replace a "poorly managed" library with a  
library that consists of "DIP8", "DIP14", "DIP16", "TO92", etc...  Eww.)

EAGLE, at least, has numerous tutorials aimed at the hobbyist.
(here are mine:
   www.instructables.com/id/Draw-Electronic-Schematics-with-CadSoft-EAGLE/
   http://www.instructables.com/id/Turn-your-EAGLE-schematic-into-a-
PCB/
   www.instructables.com/id/Make-hobbyist-PCBs-with-professional-CAD-tools-by-/
)

You can probably forget higher-end PCB packages.  They seem to operate  
under the principle of "if we charge $10000 for the software, people  
expect it to to difficult enough to use that they'll pay $1000 for  
training..."

BillW

2009\01\24@141650 by Vitaliy

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"solarwind" wrote:
>> Solarwind, haven't numerous people warn you that software piracy is
>> frowned
>> upon around these parts?
>
> Do I seem like I give a flying **** about what these people are so
> generously "warning" me on?

Given your level of respect, I wonder then why "these people" should give a
flying **** about helping you?


> I did not mention piracy. I just stated that money is not a concern
> for this :) Take it for its face value - don't try to think too much.
>
> Never said anything about "crack"

You really think we're all idiots here, don't you? Given your track record
of posting links to sites with pirated software, and your laments of only
having what's left of your lunch money to spend on electronic parts, there's
only one way to interpret what you said.


Vitaliy

2009\01\24@143059 by solarwind

picon face
On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 2:15 PM, Vitaliy <RemoveMEspamTakeThisOuTspammaksimov.org> wrote:
> Given your level of respect, I wonder then why "these people" should give a
> flying **** about helping you?

I do not appreciate being labeled or accused. Control yourself please.
There are plenty of people here that have been VERY helpful to me
since I joined here. Never have they accused, insulted or turned my
requests for help away. They have quietly helped me a lot behind the
scenes and I appreciate that. On the other hand, there are other
people who have done nothing but cause trouble. Are you one of them?
That is for you to answer.

> You really think we're all idiots here, don't you? Given your track record
> of posting links to sites with pirated software, and your laments of only
> having what's left of your lunch money to spend on electronic parts, there's
> only one way to interpret what you said.

I posted a link to a software which modifies bytes in a file once. How
you use that file is up to you. You may use it for malicious purposes,
in which case, shame on you. But if you use it for good, rather than
evil, props to you.

Oh, and, the lunch money was an exaggeration. I have my parts. I just
don't want to spend $50 to go get a PCB professionally made. That's a
waste of money unless you're absolutely sure that's the final product
you want and are not in the prototyping stage. If you're still in the
prototyping stage like I am, it's not worth it to get a PCB made. What
if there are errors in my design? There goes $50.

> Vitaliy

--
solarwind

2009\01\24@151107 by Tony Vandiver

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> That's a waste of money unless you're absolutely sure that's the final product
> you want and are not in the prototyping stage. If you're still in the
> prototyping stage like I am, it's not worth it to get a PCB made. What
> if there are errors in my design? There goes $50
That's not completely true.  For your $50, you get a lesson - a very
good one usually.  Do you think your first try is going to work for
boards that you etch yourself - if not, consider all the time and effort
involved in redesigning/rebuilding/reetching/redrilling/resoldering?  Do
you think that the design that you have etched (and designed accordingly
to make etching feasible) will be compatible with real manufacturing
processes?  I buy boards all the time that I think are "close enough"
and don't worry about what's not right.  The best way to get a board
right is to kludge an almost right prototype to make it work, esp
compared to building one from scratch.  Lot's of people disagree with my
approach, but I contend that it's fastest and let them work on their
designs/layouts for days while I'm working with my real prototype and
sending it to the customer for evaluation with a few jumpers on it.  
Let's say you have to cut and patch two or three traces - compare how
this board with a few jumper wires goes together with how a homebuild
goes together.

How much money you have or don't have is irrelevant.  The question is
what's the best value, and if I could save $25 for my business by doing
something different like building boards in house, I'd do it and
likewise most companies would do it, but it just doesn't make economic
sense because time /is/ worth money.  Yes, this means that you're
probably going to have to buy barebones prototypes twice (or in some
cases 10 times), but when you're done, you have a repeatable design
that's ready for manufacturing.  That being said, manufacturing is
typically my goal, but it may not be yours, and if that's the case, your
priorities can/may be different.

My point is that a lot of us have been down the road you're going down
before, and we're trying to tell you that it's not pretty.  We've
learned our lesson, and are trying to teach it to you by passing along
this information, but unfortunately, the only true way to learn
something is to do it - so go for it, and later when someone asks for
your advice and you know the answer through years of experience, try not
to quiver when they tell you that you don't know what you're talking
about - they too will need to live through it.

Thanks,

Tony

2009\01\24@152725 by solarwind

picon face
On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Tony Vandiver
<spamBeGonetonyspamBeGonespamtraceelectronics.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

No where have I stated that you people don't know what you're talking
about. In fact, I'm sure you all are very knowledgeable, reputable and
intelligent sources. Keep in mind that your goals are to manufacture
and sell your designs. Mine are to build one-off projects for fun.
Besides, experience is different for everyone. I have a friend who
hates MacOS because of the lack of certain software. Bad experience. I
have another friend that loves that bloody operating system due to the
availablity of art/design software. Good experience. They each have
their own goals.

Similarly, for someone who wants to make a 1000 PCBs, the FeCl etching
method will be a nightmare and spending a little $$ to get them
professionally made would be the right way to go. However, for someone
who wants to etch PCBs for a one-off hobby project, $50 would be a
complete waste of money.



--
solarwind

2009\01\24@175838 by Philip Pemberton

face
flavicon
face
solarwind wrote:
> Hey all, I know that Eagle is a very popular schematic/layout designer
> or whatever you call them. However, I find its user interface highly
> unintuitive and its library is very poorly managed. I thought it was
> just me but then I googled and many people have this opinion.

I'm a former EAGLE user -- in my case, it was the constant upgrade fees that
put me off. That and I wanted to do some design work that might have (but
actually didn't) gone into commercial production, and upgrading from the
non-profit to a commercial licence was cost-prohibitive.

The one thing I really didn't get was why the $#%!ing thing saved user data
(that is, schematic, PCB and project files) into C:\Program Files. That caused
me to lose just about all my project data, and CadSoft's response to my
feature request of "make Eagle save into My Documents by default" was pretty
much "we're not going to do this, it's pointless."

Truth be told, I didn't think the library manager in EAGLE was *that* bad.
Although it was terrifically slow to start with all the CadSoft component
libraries auto-loading.

Anyway, a while later someone let me borrow their copy of OrCAD SDT/386+ (an
old DOS schematic/PCB CAD system) which was kinda neat. I liked the
hierarchical schematics, but the PCB CAD side of things was pretty nasty.
Project management was downright evil, mainly due to the 8-character DOS
filename limit.

I've since moved onto KiCAD, which duplicates a lot of the OrCAD/SDT workflow,
features and so forth, but has a more up-to-date user interface and deals with
a lot of the little 'niggles' in OrCAD. Library management is a very weak
point (it's actually worse than EAGLE), but the schematic and PCB CAD side of
things is actually pretty damn good.

It needs a decent set of standards-compliant schematic symbol libraries
though. By that I mean IEC617, ANSI Y32.2/IEEE 315, something along those
lines. KiCAD's "electrolytic capacitor" symbol is somewhat odd to say the
least... Maybe that's something to put on my "things to do while on summer
break" list.

--
Phil.
TakeThisOuTpiclistEraseMEspamspam_OUTphilpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/

2009\01\24@183340 by Randy Glenn

flavicon
face
On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 5:58 PM, Philip Pemberton <RemoveMEpiclistspamTakeThisOuTphilpem.me.uk> wrote:
> The one thing I really didn't get was why the $#%!ing thing saved user data
> (that is, schematic, PCB and project files) into C:\Program Files. That caused
> me to lose just about all my project data, and CadSoft's response to my
> feature request of "make Eagle save into My Documents by default" was pretty
> much "we're not going to do this, it's pointless."
<SNIP>
> --
> Phil.
> piclistEraseMEspam.....philpem.me.uk
> http://www.philpem.me.uk/

Yeah, it's a weird default setting to be sure, though I think that the
new default in 5.x is to save in the user's documents folder.
Certainly makes for fewer permissions issues on systems with sane
permissions setups.

These paths can be changed (Options -> Directories). I have mine
pointing at a Projects folder in the drive root (curse you MPLAB and
your 63 character file path limit), under which is a folder for each
"project", each of which is under independent source control. You can
have multiple directories for Projects, Libraries etc. by using
semicolon separators.

I'm an EAGLE user, with a bit of OrCAD experience. There are nice
features of each, and each has a learning curve. OrCAD's hierarchical
features are REALLY nice to have, and the versions I used looked a lot
more like a Windows app than EAGLE, but still didn't totally behave
like one. Also, depending on which version you use, it can crash a
great deal, taking your work with it. It's a damned good thing that it
tends to save a backup file every time you hit save. I also don't
recall the built-in libraries being all that useful, so you have to
expect to do some stuff on your own.

EAGLE is a very strange program to work with, but once you've played
around with it a bit, you get used to the way it does things and can
get a lot done. The rather large built in library is really nice if
you're trying to do a project quickly, but varies wildly in terms of
quality.

As for the spending money on PCBs issue... my preference is to just
order them, but I usually can find someone else to pay :) Drilling the
holes and lack of through hole plating are big issues in my mind for
etching them yourself, and I'd just as soon not worry about it. It's
also worth the tuition at the School of Hard Knocks to send out a
board only to find that you've flipped D+ and D- on the USB jack and
now the thing doesn't enumerate (fun times... I've never made THAT
mistake again). If you get a bunch of designs together to get done,
BatchPCB is a great deal.

For a lot of my hobby stuff, I try to keep it to one layer and get it
made using an LPKF PCB mill - lots of excess copper, but no chemicals
and the holes are drilled for you.

Hope this helps,

-Randy

2009\01\24@203445 by Vitaliy

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Philip Pemberton wrote:
> I'm a former EAGLE user -- in my case, it was the constant upgrade fees
> that
> put me off.

What upgrade fees? We're still using the same version we bought four years
ago.

> That and I wanted to do some design work that might have (but
> actually didn't) gone into commercial production, and upgrading from the
> non-profit to a commercial licence was cost-prohibitive.

$49 is cost-prohibitive?

http://cadsoft.de/prices.htm

Even EAGLE Standard (what we use here) is not that expensive. Their
autorouter is IMO worthless, so if you buy Layout+Schematic, you only end up
paying $498. I don't consider this cost-prohibitive for commercial use.


> The one thing I really didn't get was why the $#%!ing thing saved user
> data
> (that is, schematic, PCB and project files) into C:\Program Files. That
> caused
> me to lose just about all my project data, and CadSoft's response to my
> feature request of "make Eagle save into My Documents by default" was
> pretty
> much "we're not going to do this, it's pointless."

Philip, I think you must have been using a very early version of EAGLE. We
save all of our projects, design rules, CAM jobs, and libraries on a network
drive. See Options->Directories.


> Truth be told, I didn't think the library manager in EAGLE was *that* bad.

Agreed, I think it is actually pretty good.


> Although it was terrifically slow to start with all the CadSoft component
> libraries auto-loading.

I'm not sure why that was happening to you, it takes only a couple of
seconds for EAGLE to start up on my machine.

FWIW, I don't get a commission from CadSoft. :) EAGLE definitely has a
pretty steep learning curve, and plenty of rough edges, but IMO it's still
the best value for hobby and small business use.

I recently glanced at EAGLE 5, and right off the bat noticed that they added
context menus -- a feature that many people have been asking for.

Vitaliy


2009\01\25@083659 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I cut my teeth on....drawing schematics by hand on vellum
>and doing boards with red and blue mylar tape...the Bishops
>Graphics book...that was everyones reference in the day

Boy does that bring back memories. Anyone that wants to design a PCB should
have to do one this way, to appreciate modern integrated tools with
netlists, that keep track between the schematic and the layout.

>Then I started doing the boards and schematics on something
>like AutoCAD, but since it wasnt designed for boards,
>limited sucess.

My  first experience with ECAD was Easytrax, an early product from Protel, I
believe this is now freely available for download from the web. Doesn't have
a schematic package though, only layout.

2009\01\25@092618 by Enki

picon face
On 25 Jan 2009 at 13:36, Alan B. Pearce wrote:

> >I cut my teeth on....drawing schematics by hand on vellum
> >and doing boards with red and blue mylar tape...the Bishops
> >Graphics book...that was everyones reference in the day
>
> Boy does that bring back memories. Anyone that wants to design a PCB should
> have to do one this way, to appreciate modern integrated tools with
> netlists, that keep track between the schematic and the layout.
>
> >Then I started doing the boards and schematics on something
> >like AutoCAD, but since it wasnt designed for boards,
> >limited sucess.
>
> My  first experience with ECAD was Easytrax, an early product from Protel, I
> believe this is now freely available for download from the web. Doesn't have
> a schematic package though, only layout.
>
> --

       My first was SmartCad. The next until now is Tango PCB plus (DOS).

       Mark Jordan

2009\01\25@111057 by John Day

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At 03:10 PM 1/24/2009, Tony Vandiver wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Well put Tony. Often assembling a home-build board is a real chore.
For even the simplest boards you should check the continuity between
pads because it is so easy to get hairline voids.

The $50 is in reality an hours work at even moderate salary rates. It
is very easy to lose an hour on even the simplest board. Generating
the design should be as much about thinking and checking as it is
about doing. But then it can also be about how you work. I tend to
use a mixture of demo boards, little SMD mounting boards and white
prototyping block. Pretty much anything can be mocked up that way and
the design concept proven.

The wire jumpers are essential. It is not unknown for a board to get
to the production phase with an error in it. But it should never be
the end of life. Even if you are building the board 'homebuild'
style, thinking carefully about the design can save a lot of wasted
time. Here, and in many other places where hobbyists gather, I find
people routinely not reading data sheets. Manufacturers produce data
sheets and application notes for good reason - they have the
information you need to use the parts. The data sheet should be
carefully read BEFORE you do anything else!

John


{Quote hidden}

>

2009\01\26@025424 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
"solarwind" wrote:
>> Given your level of respect, I wonder then why "these people" should give
>> a
>> flying **** about helping you?
>
> I do not appreciate being labeled or accused.

You mean, of soliciting the names of popular CAD software, so you can
download and crack it? That's exactly what you were doing. Now you're just
making childish attempts to deny it.


> Control yourself please.

If you look at the time stamps, you will see that I almost never respond in
the heat of the moment. Now look at yours.


> There are plenty of people here that have been VERY helpful to me
> since I joined here. Never have they accused, insulted or turned my
> requests for help away. They have quietly helped me a lot behind the
> scenes and I appreciate that.

Even Russell, who tried to protect you like a mother hen, tried to explain
to you on a number of occasions why your behavior is outside what is
considered acceptable in the grownup world. I respect him for his kindness
and patience, but our philosophies on the rearing of screaming, hardheaded
newbies differ.


> On the other hand, there are other
> people who have done nothing but cause trouble.

Mmmm, I wonder who fits this description? :)

To be fair, I tried to help you on a number of occasions. However, when you
choose to become a member of this grownup organization, you are expected to
act as a grownup. You can't say "I can do anything I want, I'm just a kid".
I won't repeat here what simple rules of netiquette you have broken so far,
and continue to break. If you don't want to listen to me, read Russell's
emails.


{Quote hidden}

You really *do* think we're idiots.

Vitaliy

2009\01\26@031032 by Vitaliy

flavicon
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"Tony Vandiver" wrote:
{Quote hidden}

This is exactly the same conclusion I eventually came to. And I personally
etched and drilled hundreds of PCBs -- in hindsight, a total waste of time
and effort.


{Quote hidden}

I've seen too many final year projects where the circuit worked the night
before, but then a wire came loose the day of the presentation, and many
months of effort went down the drain. A professionally made PCB will cost
you less than the soda you drink throughout the duration of your project.

IMO, there are only two valid reasons for making your own PCB: if you have a
very short deadline, or if you enjoy making PCBs yourself.

Vitaliy

2009\01\26@050218 by Vic Fraenckel

picon face
I see this post subject is incorrect. I thought it had to do with
"Favourite Schematic/Layout Designer" and not a bunch of squabbling
children snapping at and biting each other.

My mistake.

Give it up kids!

Vic
{Quote hidden}

--

*____________________________________________________________________________________________*

*Victor Fraenckel
KC2GUI
windswaytoo ATSIGN gmail DOT com**

*

2009\01\26@213132 by Vic Fraenckel

picon face
Vic Fraenckel wrote:
> Vitaliy wrote:
>> "Vic Fraenckel" wrote:
>>> I see this post subject is incorrect. I thought it had to do with
>>> "Favourite Schematic/Layout Designer" and not a bunch of squabbling
>>> children snapping at and biting each other.
>>>
>>> My mistake.
>>>
>>> Give it up kids!
>>
>>
>> Vic,
>>
>> You must have written this in a moment of frustration. Otherwise, you
>> would not have made such a sweeping and unfair statement.
>>
>> Vitaliy
>>
>
Yes I am always frustrated when I see this sort of sniping. Repliers
should stick to the subject. I expected to find someone's suggestion
concerning their favorite Schematic/Layout software because I am
interested in purchasing some. Instead I get bickering. It's surprising
how many threads end up in endless squabbling.

Vic



--

*Victor Fraenckel
KC2GUI
windswaytoo ATSIGN gmail DOT com**
*

2009\01\26@232759 by Vitaliy

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face
"Vic Fraenckel" wrote:
>>> Vic,
>>>
>>> You must have written this in a moment of frustration. Otherwise, you
>>> would not have made such a sweeping and unfair statement.
>>>
>>> Vitaliy

I sent you the above message offlist. You replied once offlist, and then
sent a second reply to the PICList. Can you explain why you did this?


> Yes I am always frustrated when I see this sort of sniping.

Take a deep breath, count to ten, take a walk, drink some warm milk... there
are plenty of ways to vent your frustration, other than letting a bunch of
strangers know about it.


> Repliers
> should stick to the subject.

I stuck to the subject. At the same time I made the observation that the way
the question was asked, was inappropriate.


> I expected to find someone's suggestion
> concerning their favorite Schematic/Layout software because I am
> interested in purchasing some.

Have you missed the other messages in this thread?


> Instead I get bickering. It's surprising
> how many threads end up in endless squabbling.

If you're so tired of it, why did you choose to add fuel to the fire?


Vitaliy

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