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'[OT] Every car in US includes.... (was: Re: AD] OB'
2010\09\02@114320 by Bob Blick

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On Thu, 2 Sep 2010 00:56:33 -0400, "M. Adam Davis" said:

> The requirements of the TREAD act are fairly loose, but I didn't think
> one could meet them with an indirect system.  Indirect sensors appear
> to be used more widely in Europe.  Perhaps they have easier to meet
> standards.
>
> It will be interesting to see the outcome of the Audi testing.

In my own personal, non-objective observation over several decades,
unless the vehicle stops, fifty percent of the drivers in my household
will not notice any dashboard warning indicator, and continue to drive.
Speedometer and fuel might as well be the only gauges. Everything else
is completely ignored, including the red light that indicates the
parking brake is on. And, as it turns out, the car has enough power to
make complete trips in town and on highways while overcoming the
influence of said brake. On multiple occasions. Apparently the decreased
acceleration was not noticed either, or the smoke from the rear wheels.

I guess the point is, no tire pressure warning system will be 100%
effective, so there is no need to make it 100% accurate.

Even if they made it so the car needed an override button be pushed to
start the car if there was a warning indicated, some drivers would just
get into the habit of pushing that button automatically and continue to
ignore any alerts.

Cheerful regards,

Bob


-- http://www.fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be

2010\09\02@114553 by Bob Blick

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On Thu, 2 Sep 2010 00:56:33 -0400, "M. Adam Davis" said:

> The requirements of the TREAD act are fairly loose, but I didn't think
> one could meet them with an indirect system.  Indirect sensors appear
> to be used more widely in Europe.  Perhaps they have easier to meet
> standards.
>
> It will be interesting to see the outcome of the Audi testing.

In my own personal, non-objective observation over several decades,
unless the vehicle stops, fifty percent of the drivers in my household
will not notice any dashboard warning indicator, and continue to drive.
Speedometer and fuel might as well be the only gauges. Everything else
is completely ignored, including the red light that indicates the
parking brake is on. And, as it turns out, the car has enough power to
make complete trips in town and on highways while overcoming the
influence of said brake. On multiple occasions. Apparently the decreased
acceleration was not noticed either, or the smoke from the rear wheels.

I guess the point is, no tire pressure warning system will be 100%
effective, so there is no need to make it 100% accurate.

Even if they made it so the car needed an override button be pushed to
start the car if there was a warning indicated, some drivers would just
get into the habit of pushing that button automatically and continue to
ignore any alerts.

Cheerful regards,

Bob


-- http://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service

2010\09\02@115953 by M.L.

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On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Bob Blick <spam_OUTbobblickTakeThisOuTspamftml.net> wrote:

>
> In my own personal, non-objective observation over several decades,
> unless the vehicle stops, fifty percent of the drivers in my household
> will not notice any dashboard warning indicator, and continue to drive.



For your sake, I hope the oil light never comes on while the other 50% is
driving your car.

-- Martin K

2010\09\02@121217 by alan.b.pearce

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> In my own personal, non-objective observation over several decades,
> unless the vehicle stops, fifty percent of the drivers in my household
> will not notice any dashboard warning indicator, and continue to
drive.
> Speedometer and fuel might as well be the only gauges. Everything else
> is completely ignored, including the red light that indicates the
> parking brake is on. And, as it turns out, the car has enough power to
> make complete trips in town and on highways while overcoming the
> influence of said brake. On multiple occasions. Apparently the
decreased
> acceleration was not noticed either, or the smoke from the rear
wheels.

<Splitting my sides laughing...>

>
> I guess the point is, no tire pressure warning system will be 100%
> effective, so there is no need to make it 100% accurate.
>
> Even if they made it so the car needed an override button be pushed to
> start the car if there was a warning indicated, some drivers would
just
> get into the habit of pushing that button automatically and continue
to
> ignore any alerts.

Ain't that the truth ...
-- Scanned by iCritical.

2010\09\02@123728 by Carl Denk

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Just 2 days ago, while in our Township office of our semi-rural area, a young couple with a maybe 2 month old baby walked in with car trouble nearby. The beat up small car was low on oil, and had a bad knock, probably a connecting rod bearing wiped out. I drove home, got a gallon of oil, hoping, but at the same time thinking it was a a lost cause, and we added 3 quarts of oil to bring it to the full mark. The knock was still there when started, and he ordered a tow truck. At one point was he didn't trust the dipstick Dah! ??? But used the idiot light to add oil. What was interesting, the engine had a fancy aftermarket air filter, and remote start.

As for a recent post about family not paying attention to warning lights, that's an education issue, plus teaching the incentive of the safety, including personal safety while setting on the side of the road. Before our daughters were permitted to take a vehicle, they had to demonstrate being able to change a tire a night quickly. Being stranded on a lonely road, is not a place for a young lady, or anyone. The quickest way out of there is change that tire and get moving. Part of a parent's responsibility is to pass on experience, in particular on safety issues

2010\09\02@131712 by Bob Blick

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On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 12:37:18 -0400, "Carl Denk" said:

> As for a recent post about family not paying attention to warning
> lights, that's an education issue, plus teaching the incentive of the
> safety

And if that doesn't work? Set up a klaxon horn on a one minute timer, to
alert the driver to look at the indicators? That by itself could present
a safety issue :)

Even with the best intentions and effort, those warning lights do not
get looked at.

And in all truth, I am satisfied that attention is paid to the hazards
on the road. The little lights on the dashboard can safely be ignored.

Best regards,

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own

2010\09\02@211727 by James Newton

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>> As for a recent post about family not paying attention to warning
>> lights, that's an education issue, plus teaching the incentive of the
>> safety
>
>And if that doesn't work? Set up a klaxon horn on a one minute timer, to
>alert the driver to look at the indicators? That by itself could present
>a safety issue :)

"Um, Dad? The car is making a weird noise... At first we thought someone had
turned on the stereo 'cause we could hear it in the background through our
iPods, but the stereo was, like, off and it kept playing... It's like this
"whoop, whoop, whoop..." thing like a techo song, but there are no drums or
base line."

--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764
{Original Message removed}

2010\09\02@213829 by Carl Denk

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Been there myself not long ago, first thought we picked up a nail in a tire, took a little process of elimination, eventually turning the radio volume down (it wasn't near blasting level), and the noise went away. Seems I tried other things including varying speed, pumping the gas pedal and brakes, different gears sort of things first.  :) :) :)

On 9/2/2010 9:17 PM, James Newton wrote:
>>> As for a recent post about family not paying attention to warning
>>> lights, that's an education issue, plus teaching the incentive of the
>>> safety
>>>        
>> And if that doesn't work? Set up a klaxon horn on a one minute timer, to
>> alert the driver to look at the indicators? That by itself could present
>> a safety issue :)
>>      
> "Um, Dad? The car is making a weird noise... At first we thought someone had
> turned on the stereo 'cause we could hear it in the background through our
> iPods, but the stereo was, like, off and it kept playing... It's like this
> "whoop, whoop, whoop..." thing like a techo song, but there are no drums or
> base line."
>
> --
> James Newton
> 1-970-462-7764
>
> {Original Message removed}

2010\09\02@231608 by RussellMc

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> In my own personal, non-objective observation over several decades,
> unless the vehicle stops, fifty percent of the drivers in my household
> will not notice any dashboard warning indicator,

Maybe something more like this is needed

   http://bit.ly/WhoopWhoop

> Even if they made it so the car needed an override button be pushed to
> start the car if there was a warning indicated, some drivers would just
> get into the habit of pushing that button automatically and continue to
> ignore any alerts.

"Go around power, please !!!!...."


2010\09\03@043019 by Peter

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Bob Blick <bobblick <at> ftml.net> writes:
> In my own personal, non-objective observation over several decades,
> unless the vehicle stops, fifty percent of the drivers in my household
> will not notice any dashboard warning indicator, and continue to drive.

ROFL. Would this not be an application for a "dad's own voice" [tm] warning
system? PIC + ISD playing pre-recorded message in dad's own voice detailing the
cost of a needed rear brake pad and drum (disk) change in case action is not
taken? Same for oil light etc. "<BZZT sound> Dear, please notice the
<red|green|yellow> [flashing] light in the dashboard. It means that the [rear
brakes|engine] are about to be destroyed if you keep driving.<DING> <break>"
(repeats). Sort of like the cockpit voice that keeps saying "pull up pull up
pull up". Of course the option not to pull up can be exercized by the pilot..

-- Peter

2010\09\03@054517 by cdb

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:: they had to
:: demonstrate being able to change a tire a night quickly.

I believe in Finland it is mandatory to take a basic mechanics course before you are allowed to apply for your driving test.

Colin
--
cdb, .....colinKILLspamspam@spam@btech-online.co.uk on 3/09/2010
Web presence: http://www.btech-online.co.uk   Hosted by:  http://www.1and1.co.uk/?k_id=7988359

2010\09\03@071725 by Oli Glaser

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--------------------------------------------------
From: "Bob Blick" <bobblickspamKILLspamftml.net>
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 4:45 PM
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <.....piclistKILLspamspam.....mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [OT] Every car in US includes.... (was: Re: AD] OBDLink WiFi)

> In my own personal, non-objective observation over several decades,
> unless the vehicle stops, fifty percent of the drivers in my household
> will not notice any dashboard warning indicator, and continue to drive.
> Speedometer and fuel might as well be the only gauges. Everything else
> is completely ignored, including the red light that indicates the
> parking brake is on. And, as it turns out, the car has enough power to
> make complete trips in town and on highways while overcoming the
> influence of said brake. On multiple occasions. Apparently the decreased
> acceleration was not noticed either, or the smoke from the rear wheels.

LOL - You are certainly not alone here, the above could also perfectly describe the situation in my household.
It does seem that the more common warning lights/buzzers become, the better we get at ignoring them. How often do you see people casually walking past cars/houses with alarms going off?
Short of attaching wires to the driver/seat that give selective shocks until the driver takes notice and performs the correct action, or maybe not allowing the car to start in more serious cases, I'm not sure how you would ever make sure that warnings are taken seriously...

2010\09\03@073420 by RussellMc

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> I believe in Finland it is mandatory to take a basic mechanics course
> before you are allowed to apply for your driving test.

.... final test ... participate and finish in at least 3 Rallycross events,
demonstrate ability to yump at least 10 metres horizontally (speed and
obstacle open)

http://ll.speedhunters.com/u/f/eagames/NFS/speedhunters.com/Images/AndyBlackmore/RANDOMSNAP/ouinpohja.jpg

and ability to average in excess of 90 kph over 20 km on standard gravel
test road.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:FpmPb7r-okGASM:http://www.m-sport.co.uk/images/photos/Mikkola.jpg&t=1

www.rallytravel.com/index.php?page=history
<http://www.rallytravel.com/index.php?page=history>

<www.rallytravel.com/index.php?page=history>
http://www.google.co.nz/imgres?imgurl=http://www.worldrallysport.com/files/imagecache/%25252FSebastien%2BLoeb%2Byump%2B-%2BRally%2BMexico%2B2010%2B-%2BCitroen%2BMK.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.worldrallysport.com/category/region/world%3Fpage%3D10&usg=__VestxLUWZNYPfnZzGxGyarSStIc=&h=234&w=350&sz=12&hl=en&start=0&sig2=5uO6tHp0bM_YZHxJAdRYzg&zoom=1&tbnid=xjdJL6jplnGwgM:&tbnh=151&tbnw=189&ei=TNqATJjkHor0swPS0ZX3Bw&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dyump%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D937%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:10,200&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=142&vpy=386&dur=654&hovh=172&hovw=258&tx=131&ty=83&oei=TNqATJjkHor0swPS0ZX3Bw&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=29&ved=1t:429,r:17,s:0&biw=1280&bih=937

<http://www.google.co.nz/imgres?imgurl=http://www.worldrallysport.com/files/imagecache/%25252FSebastien%2BLoeb%2Byump%2B-%2BRally%2BMexico%2B2010%2B-%2BCitroen%2BMK.JPG&imgrefurl=www.worldrallysport.com/category/region/world%3Fpage%3D10&usg=__VestxLUWZNYPfnZzGxGyarSStIc=&h=234&w=350&sz=12&hl=en&start=0&sig2=5uO6tHp0bM_YZHxJAdRYzg&zoom=1&tbnid=xjdJL6jplnGwgM:&tbnh=151&tbnw=189&ei=TNqATJjkHor0swPS0ZX3Bw&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dyump%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D937%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:10,200&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=142&vpy=386&dur=654&hovh=172&hovw=258&tx=131&ty=83&oei=TNqATJjkHor0swPS0ZX3Bw&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=29&ved=1t:429,r:17,s:0&biw=1280&bih=937>
Where as in Scotland ... .

Which is why they are all so keen to come to NZ :-)

Yee ha
http://static.stuff.co.nz/1273270777/996/3672996.jpg

http://www.drivesouth.co.nz/files/slideshow/Copy_of_Gilmour_RallyNZ_Day2b.jpg

http://www.racerevo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/59407_Sordod11NZ08tw137.jpg

\http://www.drivesouth.co.nz/slideshow/8513/roadside-at-rally-new-zealand

<www.drivesouth.co.nz/slideshow/8513/roadside-at-rally-new-zealand>
http://paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=93025

<paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=93025>
www.ahipara.com/news/86/how-about-some-rally-driving/
<www.ahipara.com/news/86/how-about-some-rally-driving/>
www.wrc.com/news/entry-list-for-repco-rally-new-zealand/?fid=7372
<www.wrc.com/news/entry-list-for-repco-rally-new-zealand/?fid=7372>
www.hallmotorsport.co.nz/default.asp?pid=803&sec=803
http://www.racerevo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/solberg-photo-tony-welam..jpg

<http://www.hallmotorsport.co.nz/default.asp?pid=803&sec=803>Back to work
....


R

[image: Rally Travel - focus

2010\09\03@163445 by Walter Banks

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James Newton wrote:
>
> >> As for a recent post about family not paying attention to
> >> warning lights, that's an education issue, plus teaching the
> >> incentive of the safety
> >
> >And if that doesn't work? Set up a klaxon horn on a one minute
> >timer, to alert the driver to look at the indicators? That by
> >itself could present a safety issue :)
>
> "Um, Dad? The car is making a weird noise... At first we thought
> someone had turned on the stereo 'cause we could hear it in the
> background through our iPods, but the stereo was, like, off and
> it kept playing... It's like this "whoop, whoop, whoop..." thing
> like a techo song, but there are no drums or base line."
>
Some A/C instrumentation has sounds as well as indicators. In light ac stall horns normally can't be turned off. (Well most have a breaker)

Years ago we ferrying a helicopter on floats in labrador when the low fuel alarm came on. It had an override button 2 sec push and
the noise went away. About 5 minutes later it came on and stayed on (Surprise no override this time) That sound was sure distracting.

It had a happy ending. Down below was 45 Gal drum of 100/130 aviation fuel bobbing up and down on river. It escaped from a fuel dump somewhere just waiting for us put the whole 45 gal into the 52 gal tanks on the helicopter.  
Walter.

2010\09\03@185734 by William \Chops\ Westfield

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On Sep 3, 2010, at 1:36 PM, Walter Banks wrote:

> Some instrumentation has sounds as well as indicators.

Whoever had the idea to make car brake pads "squeal" for a long time  before they were actually ready to stop working was a genius!

The tire pressure "idiot light" is particularly annoying.  As a  pictograph, it generally sucks (equally unintelligible regardless of  nagtive language!)  And then it doesn't (in my car, anyway) give any  indication which tire is supposedly low on pressure.  And it seems to  be more sensitive than the average pressure-gauge is accurate...

BillW

2010\09\03@195133 by Carl Denk

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The trend of a vehicle's tire pressures is important. If one tire is low (differs by more that say 3 psi.) than the others suspect  a leak, possibly caused by a nail type object, or other defect and search for the reason. It is not adequate to just add air to the offending tire. When the weather turns cooler as winter approaches, it is expected that the tires pressures will be down uniformly, and a routine adding of air is appropriate without further action. Accurate tire gauges cost a little bit, but should be a standard item either carried or in the garage if not venturing far from home.

It is also a good practice, twice a year (before winter and summer) to jack the car up, roll all tires around with an ice pick or awl in hand, and pop out all objects like stones in the thread. Even the very small ones. You just might find a small nail, piece of glass, or other foreign object. This will save a tire problem at the mist inopportune time on the road. :)

On 9/3/2010 6:57 PM, William "Chops" Westfield wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\09\03@221221 by Jake Anderson

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On 03/09/10 03:17, Bob Blick wrote:
{Quote hidden}

the ECU will shut the engine down (gradually) if the head temp hits 180C, then locks out the engine until it hits 140C.
The guy who was telling me was a little upset, his dayjob is repairing heads ;-

2010\09\04@092311 by M.L.

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On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Walter Banks <EraseMEwalterspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTbytecraft.com> wrote:

> It had a happy ending. Down below was 45 Gal drum of 100/130
> aviation fuel bobbing up and down on river. It escaped from a
> fuel dump somewhere just waiting for us put the whole 45 gal
> into the 52 gal tanks on the helicopter.
>

Were you more worried about getting stranded than the possibility of water
in the fuel?

-- Martin K

2010\09\05@004302 by RussellMc

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> > It had a happy ending. Down below was 45 Gal drum of 100/130
> > aviation fuel bobbing up and down on river. It escaped from a
> > fuel dump somewhere just waiting for us put the whole 45 gal
> > into the 52 gal tanks on the helicopter.

> Were you more worried about getting stranded than the possibility of water
> in the fuel?

I can't speak for Walter on that*, but in a similar situation there is
an easy and reasonably good* way to remove any water.

If you stand petrol with a moderate amount of water in it the
majority* of the water will settle. You will probably still have water
droplets in the fuel that could cause problems.

If you moisten a suitably fine* cloth with petrol it will tend to act
as a water filter, passing petrol and trapping water. If you moisten
it with water it will tend to act as a petrol filter :-). Managing to
get it wet with petrol first is not too hard with care - pour some
petrol into a container, settle for a while * and decant off petrol
avoiding the funny stuff at the bottom - or just dip your filter cloth
in the top layer.

I have no aircraft experience but imagine that they are all fitted
with water filters.



 Russell


* Determining desirable values for "the majority of", "suitably fine"
and "a while" is left as an exercise for the student. Survivors will
be allowed to take the compiler writing course

2010\09\05@090156 by Carl Denk

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Piston driven modern (last 60 years or so) aircraft generally have a "gascolator" which is a metal bowl with a quick drain at the bottom, fuel enters top center, exits via a brass screen, top around the perimeter of the inlet. Don't think the brass screen will exclude water, only sediment. The bowl is a approximately 2" diameter and 2.5" high. The gascolator is located after all fuel tanks, and before fuel pumps and engine. Standard practice is to drain a few ounces of fuel into a clear transparent cup and observe for sediment, fuel color (grade), and water. The liquid is also smelled to confirm gasoline or jet-a (keorsene) before moving the aircraft before first flight of day, and after fueling.

On 9/5/2010 12:42 AM, RussellMc wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\09\06@012713 by RussellMc

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> ... The liquid is also smelled to confirm gasoline or jet-a
> (keorsene) before moving the aircraft before first flight of day, and
> after fueling.

For most values of is.
As noted in a prior discussion here - I've seen a light aircraft
descend to a watery grave in Tairua harbour (injuries, no deaths) very
shortly after takeoff due to water in the fuel. Presumably they failed
to perform these checks, or to perform them well enough. Or maybe
Murphy was having an especially good day.

We just has a 9 death crash of a Fletcher craft usually used for
skydiving -  5 staff members and 4 others. Crashed just on airport
boundary - some major failure just after takeoff and as yet no public
report on probable reason. (Here as elsewhere that takes 1 to many
years to get out of the very very carefully investigated closed shop
of air crash investigations).

The crash occurred on the afternoon of the day of our Richter 7.x
earthquake and in the same region - rather took the edge off the
euphoria at the almost unbelievable* lack of deaths in the quake. Some
extremely sobering photos of roads, buildings and more looking very
like post quake Haiti photos. These are of course the very worst and
overall we fared far far far better than Haiti, even though the
magnitudes were similar.



Russell

  * overwhelming assessment.at all levels

2010\09\06@014919 by John Gardner

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> In my own personal, non-objective observation over several decades,
unless the vehicle stops, fifty percent of the drivers in my household
will not notice any dashboard warning indicator, and continue to drive.
Speedometer and fuel might as well be the only gauges. Everything else
is completely ignored, including the red light that indicates the
parking brake is on.

There it is.

The fact is, the large majority of drivers are incompetent.

Your personal tolerance for this interesting fact will vary, according to your
perception of your place in line, in the barrel..

2010\09\06@085727 by Carl Denk

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It just happens to be that the quantity of fuel in the system (tubing, gascolator, valves, fuel pumps, etc) is approximately enough fuel to get airborne and not sufficient altitude to return to the airport, any runway. And if you were able to make a 180 degree turn, then you will be landing down wind, using much more runway length. I have to admit, that there were numerous times we fueled our plane, and didn't check the fuel before departing, but we did check religiously before the first flight of the day. But since our plane required a fairly long paved runway, our normal fuel source was excellent quality with more than low volumes of fuel pumped daily. That's much better than jerry cans and 55 gallon drums during a rain storm. Our bigger concern was water leaking in by the flush fuel tank caps and mud dabber wasps clogging the fuel vents, but we had dual vents that were considerable distance apart. :)
> As noted in a prior discussion here - I've seen a light aircraft
> descend to a watery grave in Tairua harbour (injuries, no deaths) very
> shortly after takeoff due to water in the fuel. Presumably they failed
> to perform these checks, or to perform them well enough. Or maybe
> Murphy was having an especially good day.
>

2010\09\06@100218 by RussellMc

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> It just happens to be that the quantity of fuel in the system (tubing,
> gascolator, valves, fuel pumps, etc) is approximately enough fuel to get
> airborne and not sufficient altitude to return to the airport, any
> runway. And if you were able to make a 180 degree turn, then you will be
> landing down wind, using much more runway length.

I saw him try.
Pauanui (literally "Big Paua"*) is a holiday resort built on a sand
bar, with a single strip running across the  sandbar from the ocean at
one end to a tidal estuary at the other. He took off towards the
estuary. Pauanui is saturated with pine trees and he banked hard over,
saw that he didn't have a show of getting back through the trees and
straightened up and dropped into the. I joined the zillion other
people running for the beach. Those who could were doing a Hudson
River wing walk by the time I got to the shore edge and several boats
were already in attendance.

I was surprised to hear subsequently that there had been injuries -
but I also know that water landings can be very nasty at speed.


                Russell


* Approximately ~~= Abalone I think

2010\09\06@101120 by John Ferrell

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 If you could couple the alert to a means of disabling the radio and all other entertainment systems it would be much more effective.


John Ferrell W8CCW

Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state.
Thomas Jefferson <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasjeff122657.html>


On 9/2/2010 11:43 AM, Bob Blick wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2010\09\06@153728 by Bob Blick

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On Sun, 5 Sep 2010 22:49:17 -0700, "John Gardner" said:
> > In my own personal, non-objective observation over several decades,
> unless the vehicle stops, fifty percent of the drivers in my household
> will not notice any dashboard warning indicator, and continue to drive.
> Speedometer and fuel might as well be the only gauges. Everything else
> is completely ignored, including the red light that indicates the
> parking brake is on.
>
> There it is.
>
> The fact is, the large majority of drivers are incompetent.
>
> Your personal tolerance for this interesting fact will vary, according to
> your
> perception of your place in line, in the barrel...

Tolerance? Interesting choice of words. Would YOU forbid your wife to
drive? My marriage vows did not include the word "obey" :)

Thankfully new cars are very reliable.

And the importance of looking at the gauges is miniscule compared to
looking out the windshield.

This is the U.S., there is basically no other form of transportation.
Although "driving is a privilege", in practice everyone gets to drive.
For heaven's sake, people are allowed to use cellphones while driving!
It's obvious to me that safety isn't very important.

Cheerful regards,

Bob




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2010\09\06@164457 by William \Chops\ Westfield

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On Sep 6, 2010, at 12:37 PM, Bob Blick wrote:
> Thankfully new cars are very reliable.
  :
> It's obvious to me that safety isn't very important.

And even so, safety of THE CAR is a lower priority.  People regularly  walk away from accidents that have "totaled" their cars.  That someone  might ignore warning lights to the point where the car is damaged  isn't even a significant consideration.

BillW

2010\09\06@165307 by Wouter van Ooijen

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>> The fact is, the large majority of drivers are incompetent.

Every survey shows that the majority of the drivers thinks they themselves are competent but the majority of (other) drivers is incompetent. Same results for other desirable attributes like honestly, handsomeness, intelligence, ...

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Wouter van Ooijen

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2010\09\06@175326 by Olin Lathrop

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Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> Every survey shows that the majority of the drivers thinks they
> themselves are competent but the majority of (other) drivers is
> incompetent. Same results for other desirable attributes like
> honestly, handsomeness, intelligence, ...

And of course realistic assesement of one's own abilities ;-)

Way back in high school, we had to conduct a survey on a topic of our
choice, then analyze, write up, and present our results to the class.  Our
class was broken into about 5-8 groups for that purpose, each doing one of
these surveys.

At the time this felt pointless to me, so I convinced our group to do the
survey on surveys.  While you can't prove someone is filling out a survey
honestly, you can prove they are being dishonest just from the survey
information alone in some cases.  We disguised our survey as asking about
teenage drinking habits, but at the bottom had a single question that asked
whether you lied anywhere on the survey.  If you checked it, you definitely
lied (think about it carefully).  The result was around 15% were proven to
have lied if I remember right.  We used this figure to analyze the results
from the other groups, mostly to show how they were often meaningless.

We got a good grade despite grumbling from the teacher and protestations
from other groups, but in future years this was specifically outside the
bounds.  We had the advantage of it never having been tried before.

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