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'[OT] Enough!'
2017\10\17@124204 by Van Horn, David

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Ok this is definitely OT, but I'd like to share it in case it helps someone else.  As James said long ago, we're all embedded systems folk, but we're also all people who have human needs.



A few weeks ago, my DP and I went to vegas, and we saw the Penn and Teller show. It was everything I expected, and more.
I happened to buy the book "Presto" which talks about Penn's personal journey through weight loss.
I kept being struck by how similar we are.  He's taller, does magic, and makes a ton more money than me, but we are very similar people.
Quotes from the book: " I don't do moderation well".  "Blood pressure higher than UK line voltage".
Plus I have the added complication of being an insulin dependent diabetic.

I decided if he can do it then so can I.
I talked to my doctor, (another quote from the book: "If you take medical advice from a juggler then you're an asshole and deserve to die".)
I did two weeks of eating nothing but a plain cooked potato.  I lost 27 pounds.
I am now totally fasting and will remain fasting till I see a reason to stop, or I hit my target weight.
I am losing at the rate of about 1.95 # per day, with no flattening of the curve in sight yet.

My blood pressure is now dead normal, without BP meds.
My blood sugar is now normal, without insulin or other diabetic meds.
Lots of aches and pains went away in the first week.
Everything looks fine.
The first week had some cravings, but no hunger as such. Potatoes are very filling.

Obviously this is a beginning, not the whole thing.  Part of the process is changing my palate, so that what I used to consider to be inedible crap will become what I actually WANT to eat, and what I used to eat becomes as appetizing as a cup of lard.

But, I've said my goodbyes to burgers and fries.
I'm healthier than I've been in more than a decade.

Presto is Penn's book.  The guy behind the plan is Ray Cronise (crow-nice)

Again, TALK TO YOUR DOCTOR BEFORE DOING SOMETHING EXTREME LIKE THIS.
I am watching my vitals closely, and I will terminate on any medical reason or when I hit my target weight.
Once I hit target, I will reboot my relationship with food, and stop eating "food crack" which was slowly poisoning me.

Hopefully someone else will read this and find a solution.
Private questions welcomed at kc6ete at gmail



--
David VanHorn
Lead Hardware Engineer

Backcountry Access, Inc.
2820 Wilderness Pl, Unit H
Boulder, CO  80301 USA
phone: 303-417-1345  x110
email: spam_OUTdavid.vanhornTakeThisOuTspambackcountryaccess.com<.....david.vanhornKILLspamspam@spam@backcountryaccess.com>

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2017\10\17@205019 by James Cameron

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Interesting, thanks.

Hormone signalling is one of my favourite fields of study, because of
an expanded component fault that has developed in vicinity of CPU.
Component is part of signalling.  An article on food intake
regulation hormones was interesting;

https://theconversation.com/article-35545

It began my sultana mode experiment.  I wanted to see if I could
discern different hungers.  Began assessing and logging hunger.
Stopped my standard response to hunger.  Instead, between 9am and 6pm,
ate one dried grape, nut, or berry whenever hunger began.  Over
several days observed was a slow increase in time before hunger began.
Put this down to adaption.  It proved most of my hunger was from empty
stomach or bored upper intestine.

Won't necessarily work for other people, due to aforementioned fault.

-- James Cameron
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2017\10\17@211347 by John Ferrell

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It is really annoying to the establishment when an outsider is
successful without following traditional procedures.  You have found a
solution that works, thanks for sharing it with the multitude .


On 10/17/2017 12:41 PM, Van Horn, David wrote:
> A few weeks ago, my DP and I went to vegas, and we saw the Penn and Teller show. It was everything I expected, and more.
> I happened to buy the book "Presto" which talks about Penn's personal journey through weight loss.
> I kept being struck by how similar we are.  He's taller, does magic, and makes a ton more money than me, but we are very similar people.
> Quotes from the book: " I don't do moderation well".  "Blood pressure higher than UK line voltage".

--
John Ferrell W8CCW
   Julian NC 27283
 It is better to walk alone,
than with a crowd going the wrong direction.
                  --Diane Grant


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2017\10\17@212033 by IVP

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Hi David,

good for you

Although I've never been overweight * I've followed a reghime for
the last 40 years and weigh exactly the same as when I started. 56kg
(slightly more than a 98lb weakling).
I live in a suburb where I can cycle just about everywhere, and
further afield. This gets my metabolism up and gives the cardio
system a good regular workout. My vitals are better than average

I'd say my diet is calorie-restricted, which you get used to. As long
as you get the necessary minerals, vitamins, protein and carbs/fibre
you don't need big meals

My brother is the opposite and parks his arse in front of the TV with
a pizza or burger at any opportunity. And it shows. We were having
a big clean- up around the place last weekend and he gave in long
before I did

At one stage I thought I might join a gym but a staffer told me that
a regular cycle and proper diet is quite good enough. And doesn't
cost like a gym does, unless maybe you're training for something
in particular

all the best

Joe

* the one time I did noticeably and quickly put weight on was when
I went on a cruise for 6 weeks and had way too much rich food and
no exercise

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2017\10\18@072344 by Van Horn, David

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> You have found a solution that works, thanks for sharing it with the multitude .

It works for me, it may work for someone else.  YMMV etc, and check with your doctor.
I'm just really pleased to finally find something that actually works for me, in my life.


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2017\10\18@073611 by Chris Smolinski

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> On Oct 18, 2017, at 7:23 AM, Van Horn, David <david.vanhornspamKILLspambackcountryaccess.com> wrote:
>
>> You have found a solution that works, thanks for sharing it with the multitude .
>
> It works for me, it may work for someone else.  YMMV etc, and check with your doctor.
> I'm just really pleased to finally find something that actually works for me, in my life.
>
Congratulations on your success!

More and more I am convinced that our nutritional needs (or perhaps tolerances) are not as universal across all humans the professionals would like to believe. It's far easier for them to think this way, but it is probably overly simplistic and plain wrong. It also goes a long way to explain the inconsistent results seen in various studies between subjects. And from study to study.

In my case, the official recommendations (low fat / high carb diet) was a disaster. About 18 years ago I switched to a low carb diet. I lost about 60 lbs the first year, and continued to slowly lose weight over time (as long as I did not stray too far). I'm presently about 90 lbs down from my peak weight under the USDA Food Pyramid diet.
The trick is to find what works for you, which means experimentation. Maybe one day we'll have genetic testing to help guide us. I'm pretty sure that the modern diet with lots of sugar isn't good for anyone, however.
Chris Smolinski
Black Cat Systems
http://www.blackcatsystems.com


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2017\10\18@074937 by Van Horn, David

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>More and more I am convinced that our nutritional needs (or perhaps tolerances) are not as universal across all humans the professionals would like to believe.

Agreed.  I also think that some conditions that we see now as one thing may actually be more than one with same/similar symptoms.


BTW: My GM-10 which I bought about a decade ago, is still going strong.  :)

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2017\10\18@124808 by David C Brown

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And it might have long term deleterious consequences.  That, not annoyance,
is why establishment medics are unwilling to suggest an untested method.

Homeopathy is the most dangerous  of course.  Because the potency of the
ingredients is so much multiplied by dilution, the slightest contamination
by a poisonous substance, at a normally harmless level, , will be
multiplied to the point where it is instantly lethal.

In fact I can't understand why diluting the water itself doesn't raise its
potency to the point where one drop causes immediate hyponatremia and rapid
death from water intoxication

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak                           Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire                eMail: .....dcb.homeKILLspamspam.....gmail.com
SK23 7ND          web: http://www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*

On 18 October 2017 at 12:23, Van Horn, David <
EraseMEdavid.vanhornspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTbackcountryaccess.com> wrote:

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2017\10\18@125332 by Van Horn, David

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Remember, water has memory too, so just think how many times that molecule has been urine!.

And then there's that Emoto guy, who claims water can sense your emotions as "evidenced" by his snowflake pictures.

So much pseudoscience today..

I still want to hit my target, dead in the middle of "normal" for my height, but if I stopped right now I would be in FAR better health than I was 2 1/2 weeks ago.  I am astounded that this is possible.


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2017\10\18@132357 by Bob Blick

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Hi David,

How do you cook it? Baked, boiled, etc? Two forks poked into it and connected to 120VAC?

Potato sounds much more appealing than the zucchini diet I did for three weeks. I don't think I'll ever eat another zucchini.

Friendly regards,
Bob


________________________________________
From: piclist-bouncesspamspam_OUTmit.edu <@spam@piclist-bouncesKILLspamspammit.edu> on behalf of Van Horn, David
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 9:41 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: [OT] Enough!


I did two weeks of eating nothing but a plain cooked potato.
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2017\10\18@133019 by John Gardner

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Hi Dave -

Good for you!  I was diagnosed with T2DM 23 years ago.  After many

false starts (under medical supervision) I got a handle on it with insulin

& a relatively low-carb diet;  ~ 30g/day is what works best for me.


It's good to keep an eye on ketone levels while fasting - Ketoacidosis is

a life-threatening condition in diabetics.  There's a cheap & simple test

with a product called "Ketostix",  and also blood tests similar to the blood

glucose meter tests I imagine you're familiar with - Some BG meters also

do ketone tests,  although I've never used one - Pricey stuff,  the last time

I looked...

Anyway,  I found some of this out the hard way - Turned out that for me a

carb intake of ~20g/day was skating too close to the edge.  The fix was to

increase my carbs intake to 30g/day.  YMMV.


So pay no attention to me,  but do bone up on the subject of low-carbs and

ketoacidosis,  if you have'nt.

  Jack





On 10/18/17, Van Horn, David <KILLspamdavid.vanhornKILLspamspambackcountryaccess.com> wrote:
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2017\10\18@133452 by Van Horn, David

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Any way you like, or raw (yuck) according to Ray Cronise. But you can't have anything on it that didn't come in it.


{Original Message removed}

2017\10\18@133937 by Van Horn, David

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Forgot to add.  Wendys does them this way if you ask.  So it can truthfully be called an "all you can eat, fast food diet"   :)

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2017\10\18@194515 by RussellMc

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On 19 October 2017 at 00:36, Chris Smolinski <RemoveMEcsmolinskiTakeThisOuTspamblackcatsystems.com
> wrote:


> In my case, the official recommendations (low fat / high carb diet) was a
> disaster. About 18 years ago I switched to a low carb diet. I lost about 60
> lbs the first year, and continued to slowly lose weight over time (as long
> as I did not stray too far). I'm presently about 90 lbs down from my peak
> weight under the USDA Food Pyramid diet.
>
> The trick is to find what works for you, which means experimentation.
> Maybe one day we'll have genetic testing to help guide us. I'm pretty sure
> that the modern diet with lots of sugar isn't good for anyone, however.
>

​Disclaimer: I'm NOT a diet fad food freak. I think.
I try to "read lots, sit back,​ & observe".

My understanding is that the hard Science [tm] understanding on nutritional
matters is that the high carb, low fat  aims of recent decades was a poorly
founded and invalid way of eating. Bad fats have become gooder. Some recent
longitudinal studies, with less than a full match to typical western
conditions, suggest that high carb input increases death rate significantly
(scientific and everyday meanings apply), that substantially more fat (but
not OTT) than has been recommended seems to have no affect on death rate,
that consuming up to 5 serves/day of fruit/veges/... is beneficial wrt
death rate but more than that has no positive affect (while increasing
carbohydrate input).

Also fwiw, meta analysis of a large and varies population sample has
indicated that all causes mortality rate is LOWER for the somewhat cuddly,
slightly higher and about equal foir people of "normal fatness" AND the
mildly obese, and significantly higher for the very obese.
Using the blunt-axe of BMI (= kg_mass/height_in_metres^2)

15 - 25 Normal
25 - 30 Overweight (cuddly)
30 - 35 Obese
35 + Very Obese.

ie obese people up to about BMI 35 have no higher death risk on verage than
people of "normal" physique, and being "somewhat cuddly" lessens your death
risk.

I have some related references somewhere for the indignant :-)


             Russell
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2017\10\18@195539 by John Gardner

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:)

On 10/18/17, RussellMc <spamBeGoneapptechnzspamBeGonespamgmail.com> wrote:
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2017\10\18@200535 by Chris Smolinski

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>
> On Oct 18, 2017, at 7:44 PM, RussellMc <RemoveMEapptechnzspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:
> My understanding is that the hard Science [tm] understanding on nutritional
> matters is that the high carb, low fat  aims of recent decades was a poorly
> founded and invalid way of eating. Bad fats have become gooder. Some recent

There's substantial evidence that the official nutritional recommendations were motivated by a combination of politics/lobbying/money. Which may make further discussion of their origin taboo here. I defer to the mods' opinions on this :)

Regardless of their origin, if you plot the increase in heart disease, type 2 diabetes, etc vs the implementation of these recommendations, you get a very good fit.

Chris Smolinski
Black Cat Systems
http://www.blackcatsystems.com

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2017\10\18@200644 by Sean Breheny

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David,

Congratulations on your success.

When you say you are now totally fasting, you mean you are literally not
eating anything, not even the potato?
When you were eating the potato was it only one potato per day?

I assume you are still drinking something (water?) What about salt? What
about a source of potassium, calcium, magnesium?

Sean


On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 12:41 PM, Van Horn, David <
david.vanhornEraseMEspam.....backcountryaccess.com> wrote:

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2017\10\19@092359 by Van Horn, David

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I am now totally fasting.  Water and electrolytes, selected for no sugar or salt.  Today I hit 1/3 of my goal, -33# in 19 days..  Sugars are running in the mid 70's which is about 3x less than they were, and I am no no meds for that.
BP varies, but averages dead normal. Ketones are slightly elevated, as expected.
I have so much energy I'm bouncing off the walls. The occasional hungry feeling which passes in minutes.

In the potato phase, I was following Ray's plan as described by Penn, all you can eat, which for me worked out to one or two, once a day.



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2017\10\19@092620 by Van Horn, David

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Day 5 of fasting.

-----Original Message-----
From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesspam_OUTspamKILLspammit.edu [RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspamspammit.edu] On Behalf Of Van Horn, David
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2017 7:24 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: RE: [OT] Enough!


I am now totally fasting.  Water and electrolytes, selected for no sugar or salt.  Today I hit 1/3 of my goal, -33# in 19 days..  Sugars are running in the mid 70's which is about 3x less than they were, and I am no no meds for that.
BP varies, but averages dead normal. Ketones are slightly elevated, as expected.
I have so much energy I'm bouncing off the walls. The occasional hungry feeling which passes in minutes.

In the potato phase, I was following Ray's plan as described by Penn, all you can eat, which for me worked out to one or two, once a day.



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2017\10\19@094731 by RussellMc

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I'd be super careful with total fasting.
People do it, and it can be viable, but some also have various issues and
worst case you can die - possibly from indirect effects.
ie despite the energy levels you may experience a side effect which causes
problems in managing real world situations.

Some while ago (decades?) a pilot here died and took a small plane load of
passengers with him. It was found that he had been fasting for 7 days (from
memory) and had a very small amount of food in his stomach. I do not recall
now how it happened overall but the impression given was that his fasting
was a direct contributor to what happened.


         Russell

On 20 October 2017 at 02:26, Van Horn, David <
EraseMEdavid.vanhornspamspamspamBeGonebackcountryaccess.com> wrote:

> Day 5 of fasting.
>
> {Original Message removed}

2017\10\19@095548 by Chris Smolinski

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I intermittently fast. Usually during the week I skip breakfast and lunch, then have one largish dinner.  Weekends I still have breakfast because I am not giving up my bacon and eggs :)

Dr. Jason Fung has written extensively on intermittent fasting, so if anyone is considering this, find some of his articles and posts. Well worth reading.

My blood pressure usually runs around 106/61.
Chris Smolinski
Black Cat Systems
http://www.blackcatsystems.com



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2017\10\19@102042 by Van Horn, David

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My Dr is on board.  The health risks from my weight were significantly larger than the risks from getting it off.
I've tried various types of moderation, but they never worked because I don't do moderation well.

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2017\10\19@114100 by Sean Breheny

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Why do you say "electrolytes selected for no salt"? I think salt is pretty
important since we lose it constantly in sweat and (to a lesser degree) in
urine. I think if you don't take any salt what will happen is that your
kidneys will produce excess urine to maintain your body's salt
concentration by keeping the blood volume low, but then you will get
dehydrated.

On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 9:23 AM, Van Horn, David <
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2017\10\19@123224 by David C Brown

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A couple of years agoi the 5:2 diet was very fashionable.  5 days of normal
eating and 2 days of restricting input to a few hundred calories.

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak                           Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire                eMail: spamBeGonedcb.homeSTOPspamspamEraseMEgmail.com
SK23 7ND          web: http://www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*

On 19 October 2017 at 14:40, Chris Smolinski <KILLspamcsmolinskispamBeGonespamblackcatsystems.com
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'[OT] Enough!'
2017\11\08@135537 by Van Horn, David
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Update:  Now down 40# and still going.
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2017\11\08@140913 by Chris Smolinski

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Congrats! Over what time period?

Chris Smolinski
Black Cat Systems
http://www.blackcatsystems.com



> On Nov 8, 2017, at 1:55 PM, Van Horn, David <EraseMEdavid.vanhornspamEraseMEbackcountryaccess.com> wrote:
>
> Update:  Now down 40# and still going.
>
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2017\11\08@141625 by Van Horn, David

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Congrats! Over what time period

Started Sept 29th.
I made an executive decision to have one meal a couple weeks ago, which literally set me back a week.  But it was important socially, and it was GOOD.
Many days I have nothing at all.
Watching BP, sugar, ketones, and keeping my electrolytes up.
Feeling great, and considering renting out the spare room in my pants.

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2017\11\09@040008 by RussellMc

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On 9 November 2017 at 08:16, Van Horn, David <
@spam@david.vanhorn@spam@spamspam_OUTbackcountryaccess.com> wrote:

>
> I made an executive decision to have one meal a couple weeks ago, which
> literally set me back a week.


​Restarting VERY slowly and carefully is recommended.
(I imagine you've been told that multiple times).


  Russell​
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2017\11\09@110139 by Van Horn, David

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Restarting what?

-----Original Message-----
From: spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesspamKILLspammit.edu [.....piclist-bouncesspam_OUTspammit.edu] On Behalf Of RussellMc
Sent: Thursday, November 9, 2017 1:59 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [OT] Enough!

On 9 November 2017 at 08:16, Van Horn, David < TakeThisOuTdavid.vanhorn.....spamTakeThisOuTbackcountryaccess.com> wrote:

>
> I made an executive decision to have one meal a couple weeks ago,
> which literally set me back a week.


​Restarting VERY slowly and carefully is recommended.
(I imagine you've been told that multiple times).


  Russell​
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2017\11\09@212943 by RussellMc

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On 10 November 2017 at 05:01, Van Horn, David <
TakeThisOuTdavid.vanhornKILLspamspamspambackcountryaccess.com> wrote:

> Restarting what?
>

​"Normal" eating. after long 'fasting'.

eg "eating a meal' sounds dangerous based on what I recall I've read.
Maybe not?



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2017\11\09@221922 by James Cameron

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On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 03:28:56PM +1300, RussellMc wrote:
> On 10 November 2017 at 05:01, Van Horn, David <
> .....david.vanhornspamRemoveMEbackcountryaccess.com> wrote:
>
> > Restarting what?
> >
>
> ​"Normal" eating. after long 'fasting'.
>
> eg "eating a meal' sounds dangerous based on what I recall I've read.
> Maybe not?

Perhaps not.  From an evolutionary perspective, organisms that were
able to gorge after a fast would do well.  Good input buffers or
"capacitance" needed, for which the mammalian stomach, upper intestine
and liver are a reasonable approximation.

On the other hand, from a psychological or cognitive behaviour point
of view, ending a fast with gorging can undo much of the newly
habituated behaviour.

On the gripping hand [1], a desire to overeat after a fast might
suggest more practice is needed at fasting so that the desire can be
overcome.


References:

1.  with thanks to Larry Niven, The Mote in God's Eye, 1974.

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2017\11\10@061928 by RussellMc

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On 10 November 2017 at 16:19, James Cameron <RemoveMEquozlspamspamBeGonelaptop.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 03:28:56PM +1300, RussellMc wrote:
> > On 10 November 2017 at 05:01, Van Horn, David <
> > spamBeGonedavid.vanhorn@spam@spamspam_OUTbackcountryaccess.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Restarting what?
> > >
> >
> > ​"Normal" eating. after long 'fasting'.
> >
> > eg "eating a meal' sounds dangerous based on what I recall I've read.
> > Maybe not?
>
> Perhaps not.  From an evolutionary perspective, organisms that were
> able to gorge after a fast would do well.  Good input buffers or
> "capacitance" needed, for which the mammalian stomach, upper intestine
> and liver are a reasonable approximation.
>

​I'm a Niven fan BUT I was basing my comments on what I recall having read.
More detail may surface with time, as often happens with not fully buried
memories.

I recall hearing that rapid transitions *can* be fatal. Magnitude of 'can'
unknown.

Much via Garglabet here. Focus varies.
A quick skim indicates that it is seen by many as important to "do it
right". Value of 'right' will vary.


https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=breaking+a+long+fast&oq=breaking+a+long+fast&aqs=chrome..69i57.6168j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Looks useful.
Reasons to go sloooooooow discussed.

     http://www.allaboutfasting.com/breaking-a-fast.html

'Not my style' but looks reasonable

      http://www.fitnessthroughfasting.com/breaking-a-fast.html

Looks OK.
Fatality potential noted in passing

       https://juicing-for-health.com/breaking-fast

Much on you tube




              Russell




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2017\11\10@063806 by alan.b.pearce

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> I recall hearing that rapid transitions *can* be fatal. Magnitude of 'can'
> unknown.

Haven't followed the links Russell provided, but I am aware that a lot of care was required in feeding the survivors of Nazi concentration camps. A very carefully crafted diet was required as they were so starved.



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2017\11\10@102409 by Patrick Murphy

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In South Korea, fasting is apparently a common practice among
Christians. The father of a friend of mine fasted for over a month. His
digestive system stopped working and he died. Perhaps he didn't restart
eating properly.
Patrick

On 2017-11-10 5:18 AM, RussellMc wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2017\11\13@105222 by Van Horn, David

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Hard to say.  What I'm doing isn't taking a "normal" person and reducing them to skin and bones, it's taking me down from very overweight to "normal".
My target is the center of the weight band for my height.


{Original Message removed}

2017\11\13@115037 by Van Horn, David

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I'm also not going back to my former eating habits, that would just put me back where I started.

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2017\11\13@202406 by James Cameron

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On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 04:50:31PM +0000, Van Horn, David wrote:
> I'm also not going back to my former eating habits, that would just
> put me back where I started.

Not always true, but worth testing.  Other variables may be involved.
Aging, hormones and gut microbiota.

I recall hearing from someone who significantly changed their habits,
made real health gains, then after a year returned to former habits as
a test, and found the gains stayed; then somewhat later found their
gains were caused by something completely different.  Embarrassed,
they wished they had known earlier.

But I think you've done the tests, so they'll be relevant for a year
or so.

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