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'[OT] English'
2005\03\11@110918 by Mike Hord

picon face
> >I had someone tell me that nowadays LASER was
> spelled LAZER. I explained why this was not so :-)
>
> > Even the USites have not yet got as far as zimulated
> :-).
>
> Or even ztimulated!

I don't know, I find English to be far more colourful
than American... ;-)

Actually, my department head is a Brit and we had a fun
discussion about cookies, biscuits, scones (which he
tells me should be said "scon", with a short o), etc.,
just yesterday at lunch.  He said much the same thing:
at first, he was posessive about what "those bloody Yanks"
had done to his language, but over the years he's come
to see it more as a seperate but similar language.

Sort of like Yiddish and German or Ukrainian and Russian,
only less so.  And it varies so wildly in country as to be
almost a non-issue.  
For example, a quote on bottles of Newcastle brown ale:
"I'm gan doon the road to tak the dog fer a walk."
Or from New England:
"Pak the cah in the west pakin lot."
Or from northern Minnesota:
"Oh, yah, sure I'll come with.  Jest let me put my coooat on."

Mike H.

2005\03\11@113303 by Dan Crews

picon face
> Or from northern Minnesota:
> "Oh, yah, sure I'll come with.  Jest let me put my coooat on."

yah, but Minnesotans have thicker coats than most their neighbors to
the south . . .  you know, the rest of the US . . .

but then again, I'm in Florida wearing a coat in 70F weather . . .
beautiful day, though . . .

Dan Crews, E.I.T.
(spam_OUTcrews.danTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com)  <><

2005\03\11@114424 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> at first, he was posessive about what "those bloody Yanks"
> had done to his language, but over the years he's come
> to see it more as a seperate but similar language.

If internet true unites the world, and the Chinese are going to join
too, I wonder what bwe will be using on the piclist let's say 25 years
from now? Hanenglish?

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\03\11@121303 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Mar 11, 2005, at 8:09 AM, Mike Hord wrote:

> he was posessive about what "those bloody Yanks"
> had done to his language, but over the years he's come
> to see it more as a seperate but similar language.

Does Spanish have the same issues, what with the population speaking
the language vastly outnumbering the "mother country"?

BillW

2005\03\11@121612 by Paul Hutchinson
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As a native New Englander I must correct your pronunciation :-).

It's very simple really, R's should be replaced with an AH and the G in the
suffix ING is never pronounced. So the quote should be:
"Pahk the cah in the west pahkin lot."

Now since we New Englanders are frugal Yankee's we can't waste all those R's
we take out. So, we take the A off the end of words and replace it with ER
to use up the R's we took out of other words. So, when I want to say "Give
the blender to Brenda" I will say, "Give the blendah to Brender", very
simple really :-).

Another sure way to spot a native New Englander is by their use of "wicked"
in place of "very" whenever possible.

Paul Hutch

PS - I really do talk this way, my pronunciation of "idea" as "idear" drove
the teachers in upstate New York crazy when I went to first and second grade
there while my Dad attended Colgate-Rochester Divinity school in the 60's.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: .....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu On Behalf Of Mike Hord
> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 11:09 AM
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: [OT] English
>
<snip>
> For example, a quote on bottles of Newcastle brown ale:
> "I'm gan doon the road to tak the dog fer a walk."
> Or from New England:
> "Pak the cah in the west pakin lot."

2005\03\11@134234 by Alvaro Deibe Diaz

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Yes. In Spanish there are significant differences between the original
"Castellano" and the Spanish spoken all over the world...

Even in Spain, there are obvious differences between pronunciations in
"Regiones" (States?).

(I think) This is only natural evolution of languages: French, Italian,
Portugues, Spanish an many others came from evolutions of "Latin". I suppose
Nerón and Claudio wouldn't like HIS Latin, as we speak it nowadays :-)

All German languages, including German and English IIRC, along with Roman
languages (Spanish, French, Italian) and many others came from a unique
"Indoeuropeo" Language (sorry, don't know the right translation), from Asia.

And then, the Indoeuropeo and other megalanguages came from only two ones:
"SEMitico" and "CAMitico", languages from Cam and Sem, sons of Moisés... but
that is another story...

Sorry for the deviation from the original post :o)

{Quote hidden}

>

2005\03\11@141511 by Peter L. Peres

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On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

>> at first, he was posessive about what "those bloody Yanks"
>> had done to his language, but over the years he's come
>> to see it more as a seperate but similar language.
>
> If internet true unites the world, and the Chinese are going to join
> too, I wonder what bwe will be using on the piclist let's say 25 years
> from now? Hanenglish?

Even though the lingua franca of an epoch is usually that of the then
leading technological and/or commercial power, I can see a small problem
with the need for foreigners to learn 3,000 hieroglyphs to be able to
keep up with a mailing list at a reasonable academic level.

Peter

2005\03\11@143206 by Richard Stevens

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face

----- Original Message -----

> > >I had someone tell me that nowadays LASER was
> > spelled LAZER. I explained why this was not so :-)
> >
> > > Even the USites have not yet got as far as zimulated
> > :-).
> >
> > Or even ztimulated!
>
In Zummerzet, the drink known as zider is zaid to be zumwhat ztimulatin...

... Somerset being a county adjacent to my own location in Devon, UK. It is
alleged that they speak that way there, though I cannot claim an unbiased
ear.




>

2005\03\11@153832 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> If internet true unites the world, and the Chinese are going
> to join too, I wonder what bwe will be using on the piclist
> let's say 25 years from now? Hanenglish?


I would personally love to hear a comment from any Chinese speaking list
members on that subject.

My personal bent is that whatever we do is going to need to be typable on
the current keyboards for many years to come but that words can and should
be introduced from as many languages as possible. If there is an Asian word
for some phrase that we don't have a good word for, then it should become
the standard to describe that thing. I can't seem to think of any Asian
words (other then manufacturers names) that have become well used in the
internet world. What am I forgetting?

---
James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin
EraseMEjamesnewtonspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTpiclist.com  1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786
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2005\03\11@154640 by Mike Hord

picon face
> > If internet true unites the world, and the Chinese are going
> > to join too, I wonder what bwe will be using on the piclist
> > let's say 25 years from now? Hanenglish?
>
> I would personally love to hear a comment from any Chinese speaking list
> members on that subject.
>
> My personal bent is that whatever we do is going to need to be typable on
> the current keyboards for many years to come but that words can and should
> be introduced from as many languages as possible. If there is an Asian word
> for some phrase that we don't have a good word for, then it should become
> the standard to describe that thing. I can't seem to think of any Asian
> words (other then manufacturers names) that have become well used in the
> internet world. What am I forgetting?

Fans of Kim Stanley Robinson might suggest "Shikata gai na"...Not
necessarily well known, but if he is to be believed, a very useful concept.

Mike H.

2005\03\11@160202 by Martin McCormick

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face
       In high school which, for me, was 1968-70, I could have
enrolled in either French or Spanish.  I jumped at the chance to learn
Spanish because I heard a lot on short wave radio, both broadcasts and
utility signals.

       I certainly have not learned Spanish fluently, but even my
un-trained ear can tell some differences between Spanish from
different countries in Central and South America.

       The native Spanish speakers I know tell me that the slang or
idiomatic expressions of a given region are almost incomprehensible to
Spanish speakers who aren't from there so in that respect, it is like
the Queen's English versus American English.

       Now, if I can just ever learn all the Spanish verb tenses.
After 35 years, I usually make at least one serious grammatical error
per sentence.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK
OSU Information Technology Division Network Operations Group

2005\03\11@160432 by Jinx

face picon face
> In Zummerzet, the drink known as zider is zaid to be zumwhat ztimulatin...
>
> Somerset being a county adjacent to my own location in Devon, UK. It is
> alleged that they speak that way there, though I cannot claim an unbiased
> ear.

Ever seen the Barleypickers on Scrapheap Challenge/Wacky Races ?

Proper Job !

Or the yokel comedians in the Nether Wallop concert ? 'snuh

2005\03\11@160940 by Jinx

face picon face

> > he was posessive about what "those bloody Yanks"
> > had done to his language, but over the years he's come
> > to see it more as a seperate but similar language.

Countries that were colonised by the English in the 17th/18th/19th
centuries have retained the regional vowel sounds of the time. These
are not the "BBC English" ** vowels which evolved exclusively in
England during the 20th century. Compare American/Australian vowel
sounds to those used in Cornwall, Devon, Norfolk, Brum, oop North
etc. Not much influence from the Irish/Scots/Welsh as they were busy
being oppressed at the time and not likely to be in HM's Armed Forces

** another one of those strange flips - BBC English was at one time
thought to be common

cp Afrikaans with Dutch

cp all the European words that invaded the UK with William I

> Does Spanish have the same issues, what with the population speaking
> the language vastly outnumbering the "mother country"?

Haven't California (SoCal) and Texas been Spanish in essence for ever ?
It's just now the "minority" population has the numbers to reflect that. Is
it not true that Latinos will be the most numerous group across the whole
US in the not too distant future ? Which must have the (my perception)
WASP policy-makers thinking hard

2005\03\11@161650 by Martin McCormick

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face
"James Newtons Massmind" writes:
>the standard to describe that thing. I can't seem to think of any Asian
>words (other then manufacturers names) that have become well used in the
>internet world. What am I forgetting?

       If we all make a gung- ho effort, we'll think of something.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK
OSU Information Technology Division Network Operations Group

2005\03\11@165638 by Roberts II, Charles K.

picon face
Most of the Asian phrases I know have been brought back by military
folks. Like Gung Ho.

As for the Scotch, Irish, Welsh influence on the American language all
you have to do is come to Southern Appalachia. Here in East Tennessee
it's warsh your clothes, and go pick some flowers (read as flairs), and
er is short for her and are.

Charles K Roberts II


{Original Message removed}

2005\03\11@172308 by Russell McMahon

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> Fans of Kim Stanley Robinson might suggest "Shikata gai na"...Not
> necessarily well known, but if he is to be believed, a very useful
> concept.

I looked it up last week.
Has a far wider range of uses than as KSR used it

       http://www.shikataganai.com

is available (but not .org!) BUT it's too hard for the uninitiated to
remember.

Loosely "there is no other way" - but also all sorts of subtleties.


       RM

2005\03\12@032743 by Dominic Stratten

picon face
Oooo arrrrr where be me traktuuuurr ??

My partner is from Cornwall/Devon and my previous relationship was also with
a North Devon lass.

Bit of a long way to travel to day - over a 500 mile round trip but worth it
in the end.

The accents always make me laugh when we go down for the weekend - lots of
Cornish people all pretty intoxicated makes for some broad accents ;)

Dom

{Original Message removed}

2005\03\12@045257 by ThePicMan

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face

One thing that really provokes some fastidious in me is when
people who were born on a English language country (such as
the USA) write "it's" in place of "its", or similar errors,
like:

"Because it's battery is flat."

or

"Your my best friend."

I see such errors everywhere, even in official documents..
it's soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo lame
really. ;P

2005\03\12@050415 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Countries that were colonised by the English in the 17th/18th/19th
> centuries have retained the regional vowel sounds of the time. These
> are not the "BBC English" ** vowels which evolved exclusively in
> England during the 20th century.

Good old Colonial Kiwi English as spoken in NZ is rather more nasal
than British English and the distinctive accents of we antipodeans are
rather looked down upon by true blue English speakers. HOWEVER I'm
told that the general drift in UK English overall is in the general
direction of NZish and that in a relatively short period of time we
can expect them to sound much more like us So there! :-)


       RM

2005\03\12@052817 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
James Newtons Massmind wrote:

> I can't seem to think of any Asian words (other then manufacturers names)
> that have become well used in the internet world. What am I forgetting?

Not sure what you mean by "internet world", but words like zen, koan, yang
and yin are pretty widely used.

Gerhard

2005\03\13@122353 by Howard Winter

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flavicon
picon face
Wouter,

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:42:20 +0100, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

> If internet true unites the world, and the Chinese are going to join
> too, I wonder what bwe will be using on the piclist let's say 25 years
> from now? Hanenglish?

I think that's rather unlikely - things tend to reach a critical mass, after which it's almost impossible to
change them.  Look at the dreadful arrangement of keyboards that we're stuck with, designed to slow down
typists so they couldn't go faster than early typewriter mechanisms could handle.  We *really* ought to adopt
a better arrangement, but so many people know the current one that every attempt (Dvorak and others) to
introduce improvements has failed.  I predict that the language of the Internet will continue to be some form
of English for the forseeable future.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\03\13@131836 by Howard Winter

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flavicon
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James,

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:38:25 -0800, James Newtons Massmind wrote:
>...<
> I can't seem to think of any Asian
> words (other then manufacturers names) that have become well used in the
> internet world. What am I forgetting?

Well I don't know about the Internet, but everyday English certainly has a number of Asian words that have
dropped in and stayed.  But now I must take off my pajamas, have a quick shampoo, and put on my jodhpurs.  
Then I'll leave the bungalow, jump in the juggernaut and visit a pundit who says he knows where there's some
loot to be had.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\03\13@150140 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> I predict that the
> language of the Internet will continue to be some form
> of English for the forseeable future.

I agree, but the question is whether we would recognise it as English.

And your argument of the mighty status quo is valid, unless a new factor
emerges quickly. So it will depend on whether the Chinese (or India?)
will join the internet one-by-one or en-masse (maybe after having been
on a government-created isolated internet for 10's of years).

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu



2005\03\13@150740 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Russell,

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 22:55:13 +1300, Russell McMahon wrote:

> > Countries that were colonised by the English in the 17th/18th/19th
> > centuries have retained the regional vowel sounds of the time. These
> > are not the "BBC English" ** vowels which evolved exclusively in
> > England during the 20th century.

I'm not sure about this - the NZ and Australian vowels are very different - Aussies tend to lengthen, Kiwis to
shorten them.  I don't think there was *that* much time difference in their times of colonisation.

> Good old Colonial Kiwi English as spoken in NZ is rather more nasal
> than British English and the distinctive accents of we antipodeans are
> rather looked down upon by true blue English speakers.

This is a serious generalisation!  It may be by some, but it's no more prevalent than any other kind of
prejudice.

> HOWEVER I'm
> told that the general drift in UK English overall is in the general
> direction of NZish and that in a relatively short period of time we
> can expect them to sound much more like us So there! :-)

I don't think so!  Kiwis seem to have a "rotating vowel" habit, where each vowel is pronounced as if it was
the next one down the alphabet - "Bad" sounding like "Bed", "Bed" like "Bid", and so on.  At one time there
were about half a dozen Kiwis at work, and their accents varied tremendously, especially in the strength of
it.  One girl said a word to me several times before I worked out what she meant: "goose", which sounded like
"ghose" (like "ghost" with the "t" omitted).  Usually we had no problem understanding each other - this was an
isolated incident  :-)

But you are also making an oft-made mistake, Russell:  assuming there is a single "UK English" accent -
considering that there are four countries, each with its own language characteristics, and within each the
accents can vary dramatically that's really not on!  You try listening to a Geordie (Newcastle area, North
East England) someone from Cornwall (bottom-right of England) and a Cockney (rather a declining breed!) you'll
find that it difficult to understand each of them, but they are so different that they will also find it hard
to understand each other!  :-)  And none of them sound like "Received Pronunciation" (RP) - what you are
probably thinking of as BBC English.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\03\13@152055 by Howard Winter

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flavicon
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On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:40:50 +0100, ThePicMan wrote:

>
> One thing that really provokes some fastidious in me is when
> people who were born on a English language country (such as
> the USA) write "it's" in place of "its", or similar errors,
> like:
>
> "Because it's battery is flat."
>
> or
>
> "Your my best friend."

Indeed, and the confusion of "to, too, two", not to mention "there, their, they're"!  But it's not limited to those outside these isles - plenty of my countrymen are lax in their writing too... especially using apostrophes wrongly on simple plurals, for example: "Orange's 6 for £1".

I think the problem with apostrophes is that it's one of those things that isn't taught well at school.  Especially the origin of its use in the posessive (fred's hat, the boys' bicycles) and why it's wrong to use it for the posessive form of "it" (basically, you don't type "hi's" or "her's" so why pick on "it's" ? :-).

> I see such errors everywhere, even in official documents..
> it's soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo lame
> really. ;P

I haven't spotted this in official documents yet, but I tend not to read those anyway!  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

2005\03\13@153612 by Jinx

face picon face
> Cornwall (bottom-right of England)

Aw, way cool !! My aunt in Chatham will be pleased the trip
to Mevagissey has got a lot shorter. Who moved it BTW ? Was
it Mr Rigby-Jones, after a better sea view ?

(PS Howard, my board house could use a man like you ;-)))

2005\03\13@155510 by Howard Winter

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Jinx,

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:35:27 +1300, Jinx wrote:

> > Cornwall (bottom-right of England)
>
> Aw, way cool !! My aunt in Chatham will be pleased the trip
> to Mevagissey has got a lot shorter. Who moved it BTW ? Was
> it Mr Rigby-Jones, after a better sea view ?

Ah - well...

I know!  I was looking at it from "oop North", so it's right from that point of view!  (Phew! :-)

> (PS Howard, my board house could use a man like you ;-)))

Oh?  Someone who can block a doorway just by standing in it, you mean?  What's the pay like?

:-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\03\13@172016 by Jinx

face picon face
> I know!  I was looking at it from "oop North", so it's right from
> that point of view!  (Phew! :-)
>  
> > (PS Howard, my board house could use a man like you ;-)))
>
> Oh?  Someone who can block a doorway just by standing in it,
> you mean?  What's the pay like?

Remember the era when The Guardian newspaper couldn't spell
or proof-read ? As someone once cartooned "They can't tell
thier %rs# from thier eblow". If you really can't tell yuor %rs#
from yuor eblow, I think my boardhouse'll take you. Concentrate
them all in one firm I say

As for doorway duty -

"Eccles, turn the knob on your side"
"I haven't got a knob on my side"

Do you have a knob on your side ? I know you can get slacks
with a zipper on the side, but......no, surely not. Not that many

Pay ? 35000. Or, if yuor from oop North, 00053. Should keep
the whippet and pigeons fed for a week or two

2005\03\13@175434 by Jinx

face picon face
> Look at the dreadful arrangement of keyboards that we're stuck
> with, designed to slow down typists so they couldn't go faster than
> early typewriter mechanisms could handle

A company here sells a Maori keyboard, complete with macrons
and paua (abalone) colouring

http://www.kitereo.com/keyboard.html

It wouldn't be that difficult to switch from UK/US QWERTY/Dvorak
or whatever the user wants. A secretarial school here used to teach
Dvorak, don't know if they still do. The only snag is the overlay, and
although keys can be swapped around they're really designed to be
in the tiers as made originally. If you use the same k/b all the time it's
worth the effort to re-arrange it how you want, and get used to the new
feel, but a touch-typing temp is probably going to find QWERTY most
places

2005\03\14@011459 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face

> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:38:25 -0800, James Newtons Massmind wrote:
> >...<
> > I can't seem to think of any Asian
> > words (other then manufacturers names) that have become
> well used in
> >the  internet world. What am I forgetting?
>
> Well I don't know about the Internet, but everyday English
> certainly has a number of Asian words that have dropped in
> and stayed.  But now I must take off my pajamas, have a quick
> shampoo, and put on my jodhpurs.  
> Then I'll leave the bungalow, jump in the juggernaut and
> visit a pundit who says he knows where there's some loot to be had.
>
> Cheers,
> Howard Winter
> St.Albans, England


Oh Kay....

Either you were trying to illustrate words that have come from Asian
countries or you have some strange living habits...

Assuming the former:

Pajamas: Makes sense as they are often silk or other fine materials, but did
the world actually come over or is that just our word for the item that came
over?

Shampoo: That sounds right.

Jodhpurs: I don't even know what that is.

Bungalow: Cool, I can see how that could be of Asian origin.

Juggernaut: How does one jump into "the lord of the world" ?
http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict?Form=Dict2&Database=*&Query=Juggernaut

Pundit: Huh? How is that from there?

Loot: Excellent! Yes, it does sound Asian.



---
James.



2005\03\14@081431 by Howard Winter

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Wouter,

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:59:29 +0100, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

> > I predict that the
> > language of the Internet will continue to be some form
> > of English for the forseeable future.
>
> I agree, but the question is whether we would recognise it as English.

Well we hardly recognise English from a few hundred years ago as it is - at school we studied Chaucer's
"Prologue to the Canterbury Tales" in English Lit.  I could probably understand more nowadays, but at that age
I had great difficulty understanding *any* of what it was saying!  Apart from the "flexible" spelling, the
actual words and grammar are so different from current English that it may just as well have been a foreign
language.  I predict that this will be a problem if time-travel ever becomes a reality!  :-)

> And your argument of the mighty status quo is valid, unless a new factor
> emerges quickly. So it will depend on whether the Chinese (or India?)
> will join the internet one-by-one or en-masse (maybe after having been
> on a government-created isolated internet for 10's of years).

Well I think you'll find that India is already on the way to having Internet access widely available in urban
areas already, and the /lingua franca/ there is English.  Since there are a number of local languages in use
(Bengali, Hindi, Gujarati, Punjabi, Urdu, and probably others) and they don't all use the same characters, and
speakers of some of these don't get on with speakers of some of the others, I think it's really unlikely that
a single Indian language would ever predominate.  Incidentally, the population of India outnumbers the native
English speakers from *all* other countries by several times, but I don't know how many learn English as a
second language.

I think one of the reasons English has become established is because it wasn't imposed (not recently anyway -
I hope there aren't any Welshmen watching! :-) but has been adopted because it gives the highest chance of
being understood by any random other person.

English is also a very forgiving language - you can make a complete pig's ear of it and people will still
understand!  :-)  I think it's a shame that Esperanto wasn't simplified more than it was - dropping genders
completely, for example.  It had it's chance but seems to have missed it - the only people who seem to speak
it are those with an interest in languages.  It failed to be adopted as a language for international
communication, which I think was its intention.

I find it interesting at mixed-nationality meetings that, for example, a group of Germans and Dutchmen will
speak to each other in English, when I would have expected them to use German.

Incidentally, where does the word "Dutch" come from?  I can't see how you get there from "Nederlands" !

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\03\14@082211 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Jinx,

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:20:11 +1300, Jinx wrote:

>...<
> Remember the era when The Guardian newspaper couldn't spell
> or proof-read ?

Yes, it was known as "The Grauniad" :-)

> As someone once cartooned "They can't tell
> thier %rs# from thier eblow". If you really can't tell yuor %rs#
> from yuor eblow, I think my boardhouse'll take you. Concentrate
> them all in one firm I say

ROFL!  Is there a story behinhd this that you should tell on here?

> As for doorway duty -
>
> "Eccles, turn the knob on your side"
> "I haven't got a knob on my side"

Ah yes, a famous Goons sketch...

> Do you have a knob on your side ? I know you can get slacks
> with a zipper on the side, but......no, surely not. Not that many

I think we need to stop this line of discussion before it gets out of hand - so to speak!  :-)

> Pay ? 35000. Or, if yuor from oop North, 00053. Should keep
> the whippet and pigeons fed for a week or two

Eh up lad!  Actually, I'm almost a Londoner - born and brought up at the end of the Northern Line (the black
one on a London Underground map).  I'm still a short train journey from London, but my sister has migrated to
the North East, and my brother to Edinburgh.  I wonder if it's something I said?  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\03\14@093207 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:14:37 -0800, James Newtons Massmind wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Answer C), all of the above!  :-)

> Assuming the former:
>
> Pajamas: Makes sense as they are often silk or other fine materials, but did
> the world actually come over or is that just our word for the item that came
> over?

No, the word came to us from India, although I believe it's Persian in origin.

> Shampoo: That sounds right.

> Jodhpurs: I don't even know what that is.

Trousers worn when horseriding - they have baggy hips for some reason.  Often worn by people playing Polo
(which sport I believe came from India too).

> Bungalow: Cool, I can see how that could be of Asian origin.

Yes, meaning a house in the Bengal style.

> Juggernaut: How does one jump into "the lord of the world" ?
> http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict?Form=Dict2&Database=*&Query=Juggernaut

Ah, well the word is used in England to mean a Heavy Goods Vehicle (what you call an 18-wheeler, I think).  It
comes from the huge vehicle used to transport the statue of Vishnu, under which devotees were said to throw
themselves as a sacrifice, and it implies something huge and unstoppable.  Something to remember when changing
lanes on a motorway...

> Pundit: Huh? How is that from there?

It comes from the Hindi "pandit", meaning "scholar".

> Loot: Excellent! Yes, it does sound Asian.

Good, because it is!  :-)

That's the thing about English - we don't mind whose words we steal!  :-)

Cheers,

(Dammit - while I've been doing this I failed to bid on an eBay item and now I've missed it!)


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\03\14@094650 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> I find it interesting at mixed-nationality meetings that, for
> example, a group of Germans and Dutchmen will
> speak to each other in English, when I would have expected
> them to use German.

Me speaking German with a German? Keine chance!

Seriously: we both know a common language, big chance that we know that
common language much better than either of us knows the other's
language. And maybe Dutch and German sound alike to you, for us they are
two very different languages, with some almost-but-not-quite the same
words to add to the confusion. So no hesitation, use English. Now when a
Frenchman joins the club we can both have fun! (French are much less
inclined to speak or understand anything but their native language.)

> Incidentally, where does the word "Dutch" come from?  I can't
> see how you get there from "Nederlands" !

Neither do I :)

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\03\14@094724 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


>-----Original Message-----
>From: piclist-bouncesspamspam_OUTmit.edu [@spam@piclist-bouncesKILLspamspammit.edu]
>Sent: 14 March 2005 14:32
>To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
>Subject: RE: [OT] English
>

>> Bungalow: Cool, I can see how that could be of Asian origin.
>
>Yes, meaning a house in the Bengal style.

I'm sure it was from some building contractors that ran out of bricks on
a house, so the foreman advised "just bungalow roof on it" ;-)

Mike

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2005\03\14@161807 by Jinx

face picon face
> > Incidentally, where does the word "Dutch" come from?  I can't
> > see how you get there from "Nederlands" !

>From "Any Questions", NZ Listener 26/02/05, by Diana Balham

"Aladair Abernethy of Taneatua asks why the Netherlands is known
by this name as well as Holland, and why is its language a different
name again, Dutch

Netherlands is the correct name and Holland is a former province
of that country, now divided into North and South Holland. So, you
could be from Holland, as in one of the provinces, but if you were
from another province it would be more accurate to refer to yourself
as being from the Netherlands. However, this latter term historically
meant anyone from the Low Countries ; the area now occupied by
Holland (all of it), Belgium, Luxembourg and small low-lying bits
of France and Germany

Confused ? Now we get to Dutch. If you have ever been confused
by the similarity of "Dutch" and Deutsch" (the German word for
German), there is a good reason. Dutch used to be the language
of Germany, including the Netherlands, and is still most closely
related to German (and to English). It eventually came to be applied
to any dialect, and generically to German as a whole. From the
language, it was naturally extended to those who spoke it, and so
Deutschland (Germany) came about. Simple. Or does it sound
like double Dutch ?"

And the French, at least, have none of this and refer to the
Netherlands simply as Pay Bas (Low Countries)

2005\03\14@163600 by Richard.Prosser

flavicon
face

And what does "Nether land" refer to in very  pig Latin --- "Low Country
(??)
RP




snipped.......

And the French, at least, have none of this and refer to the
Netherlands simply as Pay Bas (Low Countries)






2005\03\14@164829 by Jinx

face picon face
> Eh up lad!  Actually, I'm almost a Londoner - born and brought up
> at the end of the Northern Line (the black one on a London
> Underground map

I would have put you on the District Line. Upton Park to be precise
(two stops short of Barking, hahahaha)

"Johnny Foreigner" has trouble with cricket. Round-the-wicket googlie
yorker to off-stump gets nicked past 2nd slip to deep gully etc etc

But have you ever tried the London Underground game Mornington
Crescent ? (a station on the Northern Line) -

sample rules -

Under Rule 4 of Article 5 (Chuttney Rules 1947) I may change line even
if I am not on a junction but only if the colour change is from right to
left
on the rainbow spectrum

Because it's Monday tomorrow, the short rules only apply and from the
2nd turn in reverse order during May. Please also remember rule 7b: All
Egyptian moves are disallowed except crossovers and double takes.

No agonals allowed, mind the gap on the circle line, the fourth quarter
is quashed

Under section 43 (a) i/ of the triple backhand (revised) rules, a player
may only move in a counter-clockwise way and not changing lines more
than once apart from if the player in question plays an underhand
backswitch manouver, and only if the net play contains any of the letters
in the word tube

Cricket ? - piece of cake. Mornington Crescent ? - good luck

2005\03\14@170746 by Jinx

face picon face
> And what does "Nether land" refer to in very  pig Latin --- "Low Country
> (??)
> RP

Suppose so. The difference is that the French put it in terms of their
own language, Pay Bas, rather than, say, "Les Netherlands". For
other countries they use a French version of the indigenous name eg
Irak, Etas Unis, Grande-Bretagne, Nouvelle Zealande

2005\03\14@171732 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Netherlands is the correct name and Holland is a former province
> of that country, now divided into North and South Holland. So, you
> could be from Holland, as in one of the provinces, but if you were
> from another province it would be more accurate to refer to yourself
> as being from the Netherlands. However, this latter term historically
> meant anyone from the Low Countries ; the area now occupied by
> Holland (all of it), Belgium, Luxembourg and small low-lying bits
> of France and Germany
>
> Confused ? Now we get to Dutch. If you have ever been confused
> by the similarity of "Dutch" and Deutsch" (the German word for
> German), there is a good reason. Dutch used to be the language
> of Germany, including the Netherlands, and is still most closely
> related to German (and to English).

I am not sure I agree. Holland, Netherlands and Dutch are just English
words (although the part about the - now split - province of Holland is
correct). I live in "Nederland" (the French translation "Pays Bas" is
literally correct) and I speak "Nederlands" (when I am not typing
English). If my country was ever to be considered part of Germany that
was either during WW2 or before the renaisance (and way back then either
half of Europe was part of the Holy Empire, or there was no Germany at
all - at least not united).

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu



2005\03\14@172715 by Jochen Feldhaar

flavicon
face
Hi Jinx,

... some comments, see below....

Greets from Jochen Feldhaar (German... ;-))

Jinx wrote:

{Quote hidden}

The Swiss cal their language "Schwitzerdütsch" , where "dütsch" "deutsch" and "dutch" are quite similar in pronounciation. Also the German dialect of the low countris (almost a hybrid with modern dutch, is called "plattdütsch", which even most Germans will not understand. So the root is common for all of these.

Also, Saxons and Anglo-Saxons.... enriched about 1066 by some words that seem French to me... ;-)

Have fun

>
>
>And the French, at least, have none of this and refer to the
>Netherlands simply as Pay Bas (Low Countries)
>

2005\03\14@180017 by Jinx

face picon face
> If my country was ever to be considered part of Germany

I don't think she said the Netherlands were part of Germany, rather
that the countries in that area shared a language. She used a sentence
that was a little ambiguous. Borders change of course, especially in
somewhere as historically aggressive as Europe

(what do Austrians call their language ?)

A lot more organised and stable now, thanks (or not) to the pointy-
heads in Brussels. At the time of the Roman Empire the whole place
was known as Gallia, with the inhabitants, Goths, Vandals, Celts, etc
battling a common enemy. Only after the Romans left could the
Europeans get back to fighting amongst themselves and establishing
more permanent borders

===========================

BTW, and apologies for the black humour - I remember a story
about a play of Anne Frank's Diaries. The lead was taken by actress
Pia Zadora, who was so bad that when the Germans burst in to the
house, someone in the audience shouted "She's in the attic !"

Ouch ;-)

2005\03\15@001856 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Mar 14, 2005, at 1:16 PM, Jinx wrote:

> "Aladair Abernethy of Taneatua asks why the Netherlands is known
> by this name as well as Holland, and why is its language a different
> name again, Dutch
>
I don't understand why proper names, including country names, change
at all in other languages.  I mean, how (and why) should Deutschland
become "Germany", anyway?  We seem to be doing this less than we
used to, judging by the number of colleagues I have whose written
names I find unpronounceable.  No more changing Wilhelm to William
"just because"; I guess this is a good thing...

BillW

2005\03\15@005211 by Jinx

face picon face
> I don't understand why proper names, including country names, change
> at all in other languages

An argument I've heard for authenticity in news reports. For example
Beijing instead of Peking and so on

> No more changing Wilhelm to William "just because"; I guess this is
> a good thing...

People choose to change their names for all kinds of reasons. Battenburg
to Windsor (a German-named British Royal family not totally desirable
last century) and many many immigrants to the US who Anglicised their
names to "fit in". Some Maori have gone the other way - christened John
or Stephen becomes Hone or Tipene

2005\03\15@012625 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> I don't understand why proper names, including country names, change
> at all in other languages.  I mean, how (and why) should Deutschland
> become "Germany", anyway?  We seem to be doing this less than we
> used to,  ...

Depends on your metric :-)
Googles:

       Kabul         2,520,000
       Kubul        2,180

   But, not just a typo (helicopter joke image)

       http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_oct2001/RearView.jpg

Chernobyl doesn't exist in Russia - only in our pronunciation.

And yet     Chernobyl    798,000
                 Tschernobyl 314,000


_________________________

FWIW, the stats on this page on (Ts)Chernobyl causalties are in sharp
disagreement with official figures

       http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.tschernobyl-folgen.de/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dtschernobyl%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff

Also interesting

       http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.reyl.de/tschernobyl/unfall/Faq.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dtschernobyl%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff



       RM

2005\03\15@042746 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Jinx,

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:48:15 +1300, Jinx wrote:

> > Eh up lad!  Actually, I'm almost a Londoner - born and brought up
> > at the end of the Northern Line (the black one on a London
> > Underground map
>
> I would have put you on the District Line. Upton Park to be precise
> (two stops short of Barking, hahahaha)

Ah, the old ones are... old!  (Perhaps I'm being mean here - it probably isn't a big thing in NZ to keep up
with London Underground jokes :-)

> "Johnny Foreigner" has trouble with cricket. Round-the-wicket googlie
> yorker to off-stump gets nicked past 2nd slip to deep gully etc etc

Yes, sadly I never did learn cricket properly - when I was at school the others seemed to know instinctively
where Silly Mid On should stand - I had to ask.  I did catch someone out there during a House Match though -
but more as self-defence than anything else!

> But have you ever tried the London Underground game Mornington
> Crescent ? (a station on the Northern Line) -

Oh Good Grief, I'll have you know that I invented the Reverse Mobius Rule!  I also walked up the spiral
staircase at the actual station when I was a lad (some time in the 1960's)...

> sample rules -
>
> Under Rule 4 of Article 5 (Chuttney Rules 1947) I may change line even
> if I am not on a junction but only if the colour change is from right to
> left
> on the rainbow spectrum

This has been deprecated, though, since the commissioning of the Jubilee line, which because it is Silver
doesn't appear in the rainbow...

> Because it's Monday tomorrow, the short rules only apply and from the
> 2nd turn in reverse order during May. Please also remember rule 7b: All
> Egyptian moves are disallowed except crossovers and double takes.

Ah, well I didn't see this until today (Tuesday) so both of these are replaced by the Wellington Substitution
(if it's raining, at any point passing under the Thames you may transfer to the next crossing to the left).

> No agonals allowed, mind the gap on the circle line, the fourth quarter
> is quashed

Ah, classic!

> Under section 43 (a) i/ of the triple backhand (revised) rules, a player
> may only move in a counter-clockwise way and not changing lines more
> than once apart from if the player in question plays an underhand
> backswitch manouver, and only if the net play contains any of the letters
> in the word tube

I haven't got a copy of this version, so I'll take your word for it.

> Cricket ? - piece of cake. Mornington Crescent ? - good luck

Indeed.  Fancy a game?

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\03\15@051501 by Jinx

face picon face
> > Cricket ? - piece of cake. Mornington Crescent ? - good luck
>
> Indeed.  Fancy a game?

I'll take you up on that another day. For now I'd rather try
something more relaxing - like messing about with an over-
clocked 18F's stack and every interrupt's turned on

2005\03\15@072536 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
William ChopsWestfield wrote:

>> "Aladair Abernethy of Taneatua asks why the Netherlands is known
>> by this name as well as Holland, and why is its language a different
>> name again, Dutch
>>
> I don't understand why proper names, including country names, change
> at all in other languages.  I mean, how (and why) should Deutschland
> become "Germany", anyway?  We seem to be doing this less than we
> used to, judging by the number of colleagues I have whose written
> names I find unpronounceable.  No more changing Wilhelm to William
> "just because"; I guess this is a good thing...

I think most of this has roots in rather distant history, where other
countries were still far away, and knowledge quite spotty. Then what is
nowadays a country often has been so for a rather short time (in terms of
language development), and whatever name got adopted for a country probably
was originally used for a region only loosely related to the country it is
used for nowadays. And whoever gave a certain name to a certain region had
a certain focus. So for the ones that called the area that's now Germany
"Deutschland" the root dutch/deutsch/dütsch was more important, while for
the ones that called it "Germany", the relationship with what they called
Germans was more important. And now we're stuck with those different names.

Which is not necessarily a bad thing. It opens up the eyes for the
ambiguities of history :)  I find that interesting and not a bit annoying.

But of course the Wilhelm to William translations are a bit strange and
don't really add much value.


Regarding the Chernobyl vs. Tschernobyl thing: I think natively it's
neither. They write Cyrillic; it's something like "Чернобыля". So in order
to be able to write about it, we invent transliterations -- few here can
read Cyrillic. They usually are oriented on the pronunciation rules of the
language they are created for. English transliteration of "Чернобыля" is
Chernobyl AFAIK, and the German transliteration is Tschernobyl. Neither is
more or less "correct" than the other, but both are more useful for us
non-Cyrillic readers than "Чернобыля" :)

(And of course the German transliteration results in fewer hits than the
English transliteration. And the Cyrillic original of course results in
still fewer hits.)

Gerhard


PS I hope your email reader and your system understand Unicode; utf-8, to
be more specific :)

2005\03\15@074109 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Gerhard,

Interesting points!  However...

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:25:13 -0300, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:

> " º   Ç       ï   Å" :)

> PS I hope your email reader and your system understand Unicode; utf-8, to be more specific :)

Nope!  In case it mangles the stuff above even further, most of the characters are spaces, with some "high ASCII" characters interspersed, such as C-cedilla, i-umlaut, a top-right double-line corner.

Never mind, I know what you meant!  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

2005\03\15@081253 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Jinx wrote:

>> And what does "Nether land" refer to in very  pig Latin --- "Low Country
>> (??)
>> RP
>
> Suppose so. The difference is that the French put it in terms of their
> own language,

Actually, I think this happens in all languages. Maybe in French a bit
more, but if at all, that's a matter of "a bit more or less" rather than
"do or don't" and would need a careful analysis to be able to say whether
it's actually more or less.

"Netherlands" is not Dutch, it's English. By merely looking at the letters,
it seems closer to "Nederland" than "Pays Bas", but by looking at the
meaning, "Pays Bas" is much closer than "Netherlands" (see the question
above).

So it seems clear that using "Nederland" is the most correct (even though
in most contexts outside of Nederland probably not the most widely
understood). But it seems less clear whether "Netherlands" is a better
"transformation" of the original into English than "Pays Bas" is into
French. The English version lost the spelling and the meaning, whereas the
French merely lost the spelling, but maintained the meaning.

Gerhard

2005\03\15@123037 by Bradley Ferguson

picon face
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:12:36 -0300, Gerhard Fiedler
<KILLspamlistsKILLspamspamconnectionbrazil.com> wrote:
> "Netherlands" is not Dutch, it's English. By merely looking at the letters,
> it seems closer to "Nederland" than "Pays Bas", but by looking at the
> meaning, "Pays Bas" is much closer than "Netherlands" (see the question
> above).
>
> So it seems clear that using "Nederland" is the most correct (even though
> in most contexts outside of Nederland probably not the most widely
> understood). But it seems less clear whether "Netherlands" is a better
> "transformation" of the original into English than "Pays Bas" is into
> French. The English version lost the spelling and the meaning, whereas the
> French merely lost the spelling, but maintained the meaning.

Not quite sure what you mean.  We have the word "nether" in English
(see: www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=nether&x=0&y=0
), which has the meaning low or beneath.  We also have the word land.
To me, it seems better than "Pays Bas," which is unreconizable to me
as I don't know any French.  Nederland would probably be recognized by
just about any English speaker who was educated enough to know there
is a country in the world that we call the Netherlands.  That's
probably a short list in the U.S., though.

Bradley

2005\03\15@130858 by Peter

picon face

>> by this name as well as Holland, and why is its language a different
>> name again, Dutch
>>
> I don't understand why proper names, including country names, change
> at all in other languages.  I mean, how (and why) should Deutschland
> become "Germany", anyway?  We seem to be doing this less than we

Germany is probably derived from the latin Germanii via the Normans who
were the most likely to be asked about the land lying further to the
east imho.

Now, how did the French derive 'Boches' for the same term ? ;-)

Peter

2005\03\15@130904 by Peter

picon face


> And what does "Nether land" refer to in very  pig Latin --- "Low Country" ?

Nether land is probably a germanic idiom for Nieder Land = low country.
As in, Pays Bas. I understand that before there were proper dykes the
land was mostly under water, and after there were improper dykes the
land was under water with horrible results several times.

Peter

2005\03\15@155436 by Jinx

face picon face
> Now, how did the French derive 'Boches' for the same term ? ;-)

Google for

boches derivation

4th page of results, 7th site, the one after "Nicknames - TankNet
Military Forums"

At that site under "a little french history"

Way too long to copy/post. Although that explanation is fairly benign and
apparently factual, the site name and other content has rude words and
sentiment which is not acceptable here so I won't give a direct link to it

2005\03\15@175313 by Lindy Mayfield

flavicon
face
Interesting that in Italian the country is Germania and the language Tededco.

-----Original Message-----
From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu [spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesspamBeGonespammit.edu] On Behalf Of Peter
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 18:56
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [OT] English


>> by this name as well as Holland, and why is its language a different
>> name again, Dutch
>>
> I don't understand why proper names, including country names, change
> at all in other languages.  I mean, how (and why) should Deutschland
> become "Germany", anyway?  We seem to be doing this less than we

Germany is probably derived from the latin Germanii via the Normans who
were the most likely to be asked about the land lying further to the
east imho.

Now, how did the French derive 'Boches' for the same term ? ;-)

Peter

2005\03\15@175735 by Lindy Mayfield

flavicon
face

Sorry, fat finger.  I meant Tedesco.  


Subject: RE: [OT] English

Interesting that in Italian the country is Germania and the language Tededco.

{Original Message removed}

2005\03\16@042139 by ThePicMan

flavicon
face

At 23.52 2005.03.15 +0100, you wrote:
>Interesting that in Italian the country is Germania and the language Tededco.

"Tedesco"

2005\03\16@071728 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Bradley Ferguson wrote:

>> "Netherlands" is not Dutch, it's English. By merely looking at the letters,
>> it seems closer to "Nederland" than "Pays Bas", but by looking at the
>> meaning, "Pays Bas" is much closer than "Netherlands" (see the question
>> above).
>>
>> So it seems clear that using "Nederland" is the most correct (even though
>> in most contexts outside of Nederland probably not the most widely
>> understood). But it seems less clear whether "Netherlands" is a better
>> "transformation" of the original into English than "Pays Bas" is into
>> French. The English version lost the spelling and the meaning, whereas the
>> French merely lost the spelling, but maintained the meaning.
>
> Not quite sure what you mean.  We have the word "nether" in English
> (see: www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=nether&x=0&y=0
> ), which has the meaning low or beneath.  

Ok, so I missed that "nether" actually exists in modern English. But by
judging from Richard's message, that knowledge not really too common :)
Are there any texts written in the last hundred years that actually use
this word?

But back to what I meant, which is really independent of whether "nether"
exists or not. The fact is that in English -- just like in French, in
German and the other languages I know -- the names for countries get
"translated", for a variety of reasons. There doesn't seem to be a unique
position for French, as a previous message supposed. Pays Bas just seems
more different from Nederland than Netherlands for English-speaking or
Niederlande for German-speaking, but all three are translations. It just
happens that in this case, the greater proximity of English, German and
Dutch lead to a translation that's closer to the original.

There are only a few countries that are called the same in their native
language as they are called in English. The range of the differences goes
from the subtle (Brazil vs Brasil) to the unrecognizable (Germany vs
Deutschland) to the unmentionable (all countries that don't use the Latin
alphabet, due to the number of English-speaking systems that don't support
Unicode :).

Gerhard

2005\03\16@075945 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Ok, so I missed that "nether" actually exists in modern English. But by
>judging from Richard's message, that knowledge not really too common :)
>Are there any texts written in the last hundred years that actually use
>this word?

Hmm, well my understanding of modern usage of the word is to talk about the
"nether regions" as in the "back of beyond" i.e. a long way away, or to do
with the extremities of ones limbs, or backside, all of which probably
support translations from the French into English. Not attempting to get at
any non-English nationals here.

...
>There are only a few countries that are called the same in their native
>language as they are called in English. The range of the differences goes
>from the subtle (Brazil vs Brasil) to the unrecognizable (Germany vs
>Deutschland) to the unmentionable (all countries that don't use the Latin
>alphabet, due to the number of English-speaking systems that don't support
>Unicode :).

I suspect many country names in English have grown out of how English
speaking explorers perceived the name to be spoken when first discovering
the country, or have used the English version of someone else's nickname for
a region. Names like Germany and Netherlands would both potentially fit this
category. Names in Asian areas may also have had the same effect given to
them (e.g. Peking for Beijing). Usage in other European languages may have
then become based on English or other European explorers original names
(e.g. New Zealand being generated from the original Dutch name given by Abel
Tasman). Other names come from "anglicising" the foreign name e.g. Munich
from the German Munchen.

2005\03\16@082901 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Ok, so I missed that "nether" actually exists in modern English. But
> by
> judging from Richard's message, that knowledge not really too common
> :)
> Are there any texts written in the last hundred years that actually
> use
> this word?

The word is generally used flippantly or for special effect. Educated
adults would be familiar with it. It's not common but by no means
obsolete or archaic. A reference to a person's "nether regions" would
generally refer to their posterior/backside/... . It is not quite
impolite but not formal either. Nether regions in general refer to
inaccessible locations. If someone uses that term it would usually NOT
be in the context of conveying hard information but rather in order to
emphasise inaccessibility or vague but great distance to a less than
formal audience.
"Our trek will take us into the nether regions of Nepal ...".

       RM

2005\03\16@142235 by Richard.Prosser

flavicon
face

My only knowledge of the word came from the "nether regions" expression -
as referring to somwhat below the belt line. From this, & a hazy
recollection  of school Latin I didn't really consider it to be common
usage but  more like other foreign words that have been adopted.
But Peter Pan and MJ do also have "Netherland" don't they?

Richard P


                                                                                                                               
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                   list -                                                                                                      
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>Ok, so I missed that "nether" actually exists in modern English. But by
>judging from Richard's message, that knowledge not really too common :)
>Are there any texts written in the last hundred years that actually use
>this word?

Hmm, well my understanding of modern usage of the word is to talk about the
"nether regions" as in the "back of beyond" i.e. a long way away, or to do
with the extremities of ones limbs, or backside, all of which probably
support translations from the French into English. Not attempting to get at
any non-English nationals here.

...
>There are only a few countries that are called the same in their native
>language as they are called in English. The range of the differences goes
>from the subtle (Brazil vs Brasil) to the unrecognizable (Germany vs
>Deutschland) to the unmentionable (all countries that don't use the Latin
>alphabet, due to the number of English-speaking systems that don't support
>Unicode :).

I suspect many country names in English have grown out of how English
speaking explorers perceived the name to be spoken when first discovering
the country, or have used the English version of someone else's nickname
for
a region. Names like Germany and Netherlands would both potentially fit
this
category. Names in Asian areas may also have had the same effect given to
them (e.g. Peking for Beijing). Usage in other European languages may have
then become based on English or other European explorers original names
(e.g. New Zealand being generated from the original Dutch name given by
Abel
Tasman). Other names come from "anglicising" the foreign name e.g. Munich
from the German Munchen.






2005\03\16@143716 by Marcel Duchamp

picon face
And speaking of "nether regions", Chaucer used that meaning when he
wrote in "The Millers Tale":

       "And Absolon hath kiss'd her nether eye"
MD

Richard.ProsserEraseMEspam.....Powerware.com wrote:
> My only knowledge of the word came from the "nether regions" expression -
> as referring to somwhat below the belt line. From this, & a hazy
> recollection  of school Latin I didn't really consider it to be common
> usage but  more like other foreign words that have been adopted.
> But Peter Pan and MJ do also have "Netherland" don't they?
>
> Richard P
>

2005\03\16@152728 by Jinx

face picon face
> and MJ do also have "Netherland" don't they?

Aw, that's a bit below the belt ;-)


(lock him up anyway)

2005\03\19@073617 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Alan,

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:59:52 -0000, Alan B. Pearce wrote:

> Hmm, well my understanding of modern usage of the word is to talk about the
> "nether regions" as in the "back of beyond"

I've never seen it used this way - I've always heard "nether regions" to mean, as Monty Python would say, "the
naughty bits"!  :-)

> i.e. a long way away, or to do
> with the extremities of ones limbs, or backside, all of which probably
> support translations from the French into English.

According to a dictionary I just checked, the Old English devivation means "lower down", not "far away", so
"Netherlands"  really does mean Lowlands, just as the French does.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\03\19@074052 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Russell,

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 02:28:51 +1300, Russell McMahon wrote:

> The word is generally used flippantly or for special effect.
>...<
> Nether regions in general refer to inaccessible locations.

Yes, but the derivation is from "lower down", nothing to do with "inaccessible" so I wonder if it's a joke or
euphemism...

> If someone uses that term it would usually NOT
> be in the context of conveying hard information but rather in order to
> emphasise inaccessibility or vague but great distance to a less than
> formal audience.
> "Our trek will take us into the nether regions of Nepal ...".

I wonder if this is a polite way to say (I hope this doesn't offend anyone!) "the arse end of Nepal"?

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\03\19@080232 by John J. McDonough

flavicon
face
----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard Winter" <EraseMEHDRWspamH2Org.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [OT] English


> Yes, but the derivation is from "lower down", nothing to do
> with "inaccessible" so I wonder if it's a joke or
> euphemism...

The connection isn't limited to English.  There is a Dutch word,
"vernedering" which has a very similar meaning to the English "debasement",
which, in turn, would seem to come from the French "bas".

It goes in a circle it seems.

--McD


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