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'[OT] EMC/EMI/ C tick for low volume Pic projects'
1999\10\02@070839 by rsymmans

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Just out of interest what do most of "us" do for EMC testiing of low
volume products.
I am working on a number of projects and am hesitant to go through the
EMC certification procedure as the cost is prohibitive for the product
volumes.

I guess quite a few of us may be in the same position and wondered what
the various solutions were.

I have talked with one EMC test house who regularly have small volume
customers come in with "half a dozen" projects to test simultaneously. I
suspect many of us don't bother at all.

Any thoughts?

Rob
Western Australia

1999\10\02@111806 by Chris Eddy

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Rob wrote;


>Just out of interest what do most of "us" do for EMC testiing of low
>volume products.
>I am working on a number of projects and am hesitant to go through the
>EMC certification procedure as the cost is prohibitive for the product
>volumes.
>
Everybody follow the bouncing ball;

"Barrier to Entry"

But then that is only one of many high hurdles to cover with the small
volume product.  It is insane not to attempt to target either:
High volume low cost product
or
Low volume high cost product
either of which should solve your problem.

Chris Eddy
Pioneer Microsystems, Inc.

1999\10\02@112431 by Dave VanHorn

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> I guess quite a few of us may be in the same position and wondered what
> the various solutions were.


You can self-certify. (at least in the US)   if your product is later found
to be non-compliant, you could be in big trouble.

What I do, is to use a wideband receiver (Icom R-8500) to do my own
prescans, assuring that I will not need more than the minimum time at the
lab to certify.  While I can't make absolute measurements, I can play "kill
the biggest spike" till there's nothing significant left.

Good board layout, and an understanding of how EMI gets created go a LONG
way twoard a nearly silent system.

1999\10\03@030511 by David Duffy

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<x-flowed>Rob <spam_OUTrsymmansTakeThisOuTspamCYLLENE.UWA.EDU.AU> wrote:

>Just out of interest what do most of "us" do for EMC testiing of low
>volume products.
>I am working on a number of projects and am hesitant to go through the
>EMC certification procedure as the cost is prohibitive for the product
>volumes.
>
>I guess quite a few of us may be in the same position and wondered what
>the various solutions were.
>
>I have talked with one EMC test house who regularly have small volume
>customers come in with "half a dozen" projects to test simultaneously. I
>suspect many of us don't bother at all.

Hi Rob,
You are indeed correct about a lot of people not bothering to do EMC testing.
That said, the law says you *have* to have all the documents if you want to
sell it.
I agree that it's absurd to spend $1500 to test a device that you'll only
ever make
a few of and sell for less than $500 each !  Even prototypes or
'1-off's'  need to be
approved before you can sell them. When ACA start to really enforce this it
will
mean a lot of small companies will be out of business. This C-Tick stuff
has really
opened up a can of worms.
Regards...

</x-flowed>

1999\10\03@054654 by Morgan Olsson

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Actually, by the law, if you solder together a LED and a resistor, you have to certify it before applying power...

"Anything that contain a semiconductor..."

BureaCRAZY maniacs... :/

Actually, I think, by the law, it is illegal to do pre-testing, as the device is not yet certified!

I don«t care.  Neither did the inspector I had on visit.

Theese people are much more intelligent then the laws they write :)


/Morgan
Morgans Reglerteknik, HŠllekŒs, 277 35 KIVIK, SWEDEN
  tel +46(0)414-446620, fax -70331,   .....mrtKILLspamspam@spam@iname.com

1999\10\03@185008 by Dave VanHorn

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> "Anything that contain a semiconductor..."

I think that you'll find the real reg is anything with a clock over 9kHz,
with an exception for digital watches.

> Actually, I think, by the law, it is illegal to do pre-testing, as the
device is not yet certified!

Hardly. You just can't sell the device. You're still responsible for it's
emissions.

You can also self-certify, but if the FCC finds your products in violation,
you better have really good paperwork. That's why the independent labs make
their money.

1999\10\04@020303 by Morgan Olsson

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Hej Dave VanHorn. Tack fšr ditt meddelande 17:47 1999-10-03 -0500 enligt nedan:
> > "Anything that contain a semiconductor..."
>
>I think that you'll find the real reg is anything with a clock over 9kHz,
>with an exception for digital watches.

No.  For example, a lamp dimmer can make severe noise, and the "klock" is only 100Hz.

The reasoning was something like if it contain a semiconductor it can possibly oscillate badly.

But also relays can make switching noise...

BTW, this was CE regulations

{Quote hidden}

Morgans Reglerteknik, HŠllekŒs, 277 35 KIVIK, SWEDEN
  tel +46(0)414-446620, fax -70331,   mrtspamKILLspaminame.com

1999\10\04@115424 by Harold M Hallikainen

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On Mon, 4 Oct 1999 07:41:33 +0200 Morgan Olsson <.....morgans.rtKILLspamspam.....TELIA.COM>
writes:
{Quote hidden}

       A few comments...  Here are the text or relevant FCC rules (which
do NOT apply in Europe!).

<http://hallikainen.com/cgi-bin/section.pl?section=15.3&SearchString=(k)>
Sec. 15.3  Definitions.
   (k) Digital device. (Previously defined as a computing device). An
unintentional radiator (device or system) that generates and uses timing
signals or pulses at a rate in excess of 9,000 pulses (cycles) per
second and uses digital techniques; inclusive of telephone equipment
that uses digital techniques or any device or system that generates and
uses radio frequency energy for the purpose of performing data
processing functions, such as electronic computations, operations,
transformations, recording, filing, sorting, storage, retrieval, or
transfer. A radio frequency device that is specifically subject to an
emanation requirement in any other

[[Page 637]]

FCC Rule part or an intentional radiator subject to subpart C of this
part that contains a digital device is not subject to the standards for
digital devices, provided the digital device is used only to enable
operation of the radio frequency device and the digital device does not
control additional functions or capabilities.

   Note: Computer terminals and peripherals that are intended to be
connected to a computer are digital devices.

<http://hallikainen.com/cgi-bin/section.pl?section=15.3&SearchString=(n)>
   (n) Incidental radiator. A device that generates radio frequency
energy during the course of its operation although the device is not
intentionally designed to generate or emit radio frequency energy.
Examples of incidental radiators are dc motors, mechanical light
switches, etc.

<hallikainen.com/cgi-bin/section.pl?section=15.13>
Sec. 15.13  Incidental radiators.

   Manufacturers of these devices shall employ good engineering
practices to minimize the risk of harmful interference.

<hallikainen.com/cgi-bin/section.pl?section=15.23>
Sec. 15.23  Home-built devices.

   (a) Equipment authorization is not required for devices that are not
marketed, are not constructed from a kit, and are built in quantities of
five or less for personal use.
   (b) It is recognized that the individual builder of home-built
equipment may not possess the means to perform the measurements for
determining compliance with the regulations. In this case, the builder
is expected to employ good engineering practices to meet the specified
technical standards to the greatest extent practicable. The provisions
of Sec. 15.5 apply to this equipment.



       For more info, see part 15 at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules .



Harold



Harold Hallikainen
haroldspamspam_OUThallikainen.com
Hallikainen & Friends, Inc.
See the FCC Rules at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules and comments filed
in LPFM proceeding at http://hallikainen.com/lpfm

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1999\10\04@132137 by Dave VanHorn

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> >I think that you'll find the real reg is anything with a clock over 9kHz,
> >with an exception for digital watches.
>
> No.  For example, a lamp dimmer can make severe noise, and the "klock" is
only 100Hz.

> BTW, this was CE regulations

Ok, I was talking FCC.

1999\10\04@132731 by William K. Borsum

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At 05:47 PM 10/3/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> "Anything that contain a semiconductor..."
>
>I think that you'll find the real reg is anything with a clock over 9kHz,
>with an exception for digital watches.
>
>> Actually, I think, by the law, it is illegal to do pre-testing, as the
>device is not yet certified!
>
>Hardly. You just can't sell the device. You're still responsible for it's
>emissions.
>
>You can also self-certify, but if the FCC finds your products in violation,
>you better have really good paperwork. That's why the independent labs make
>their money.

On the general topic of FCC testing for sales in the US, a couple of the
labs I talked to told me independently and rather emphatically that
"scientific instruments" are generally exempt, and that up to five
prototypes of any given model can be built and put into service without
formal testing.  However anything placed into production for resale MUST be
tested.

There is a magazine out called COMPLIANCE ENGINEERING that is dedicated to
this field--controlled circulation = free.  Also, most test houses have a
free pre-test review service.  If they are going to get the do the final
testing, then they will review the design--schematics and hardware--and
make their technical suggestions to help you to pass the first time
through.  I'm looking at going through the process over the next month or
two, so if any of you have experience with particular test labs--good, bad,
or indifferent--I'd like to hear about it.  Off list is OK.

Kelly

William K. Borsum, P.E. -- OEM Dataloggers and Instrumentation Systems
<@spam@borsumKILLspamspamdascor.com> & <http://www.dascor.com>San Diego, California, USA

1999\10\04@134356 by Dave VanHorn

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> On the general topic of FCC testing for sales in the US, a couple of the
> labs I talked to told me independently and rather emphatically that
> "scientific instruments" are generally exempt, and that up to five
> prototypes of any given model can be built and put into service without
> formal testing.  However anything placed into production for resale MUST
be
> tested.

That's my understanding.



If you will go through this more than once, have a look at my page:

http://www.cedar.net/users/dvanhorn/hamrad/ha00001.html

1999\10\05@131916 by Harold M Hallikainen

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On Mon, 4 Oct 1999 10:25:04 -0700 "William K. Borsum" <KILLspamborsumKILLspamspamDASCOR.COM>
writes:
>At 05:47 PM 10/3/99 -0500, you wrote:

>On the general topic of FCC testing for sales in the US, a couple of
>the >labs I talked to told me independently and rather emphatically that
>"scientific instruments" are generally exempt, and that up to five
>prototypes of any given model can be built and put into service
>without formal testing.  However anything placed into production for
resale
>MUST be tested.
>

       I see an exemption for test equipment (see 15.03(c)), but not for
"scientific instruments."  Perhaps they are the same thing... but maybe
not.  Note also that the "no interference" and "availability for FCC
inspection" requirements of 15.5 and 15.29 still apply.
       I'd be interested in seeing the section that allows up to five
prototypes to be put into service, as I can't find it.  The closest thing
I find is 15.23, which allows 5 HOME BUILT devices to be used for
personal use.  A kit does not qualify as a home built device.

Harold


<hallikainen.com/cgi-bin/section.pl?section=15.03>
Sec. 15.103  Exempted devices.

   The following devices are subject only to the general conditions of
operation in Secs. 15.5 and 15.29 and are exempt from the specific
technical standards and other requirements contained in this part. The
operator of the exempted device shall be required to stop operating the
device upon a finding by the Commission or its representative that the
device is causing harmful interference. Operation shall not resume until
the condition causing the harmful interference has been corrected.
Although not mandatory, it is strongly recommended that the manufacturer
of an exempted device endeavor to have the device meet the specific
technical standards in this part.
   (a) A digital device utilized exclusively in any transportation
vehicle including motor vehicles and aircraft.
   (b) A digital device used exclusively as an electronic control or
power system utilized by a public utility or in an industrial plant. The
term public utility includes equipment only to the extent that it is in
a dedicated building or large room owned or leased by the utility and
does not extend to equipment installed in a subscriber's facility.
   (c) A digital device used exclusively as industrial, commercial, or
medical test equipment.
   (d) A digital device utilized exclusively in an appliance, e.g.,
microwave oven, dishwasher, clothes dryer, air conditioner (central or
window), etc.
   (e) Specialized medical digital devices (generally used at the
direction of or under the supervision of a licensed health care
practitioner) whether used in a patient's home or a health care
facility. Non-specialized medical devices, i.e., devices marketed
through retail channels for use by the general public, are not exempted.
This exemption also does not apply to digital devices used for record
keeping or any purpose not directly connected with medical treatment.
   (f) Digital devices that have a power consumption not exceeding 6
nW.
   (g) Joystick controllers or similar devices, such as a mouse, used
with digital devices but which contain only non-digital circuitry or a
simple circuit to convert the signal to the format required (e.g., an
integrated circuit for analog to digital conversion) are viewed as
passive add-on devices, not themselves directly subject to the technical
standards or the equipment authorization requirements.
   (h) Digital devices in which both the highest frequency generated
and the highest frequency used are less than 1.705 MHz and which do not
operate from the AC power lines or contain provisions for operation
while connected to the AC power lines. Digital devices that include, or
make provision for the use of, battery eliminators, AC adaptors or
battery chargers which permit operation while charging or that connect
to the AC power lines indirectly, obtaining their power through another
device which is connected to the AC power lines, do not fall under this
exemption.
   (i) Responsible parties should note that equipment containing more
than one device is not exempt from the technical standards in this part
unless all of the devices in the equipment meet the criteria for
exemption. If only one of the included devices qualifies for exemption,
the remainder of the equipment must comply with any applicable
regulations. If a device performs more than one function and all of
those functions do not meet the criteria for exemption, the device does
not qualify for inclusion under the exemptions.

<hallikainen.com/cgi-bin/section.pl?section=15.23>
Sec. 15.23  Home-built devices.

   (a) Equipment authorization is not required for devices that are not
marketed, are not constructed from a kit, and are built in quantities of
five or less for personal use.
   (b) It is recognized that the individual builder of home-built
equipment may not possess the means to perform the measurements for
determining compliance with the regulations. In this case, the builder
is expected to employ good engineering practices to meet the specified
technical standards to the greatest extent practicable. The provisions
of Sec. 15.5 apply to this equipment.



Harold Hallikainen
RemoveMEharoldTakeThisOuTspamhallikainen.com
Hallikainen & Friends, Inc.
See the FCC Rules at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules and comments filed
in LPFM proceeding at http://hallikainen.com/lpfm

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
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1999\10\05@190426 by William K. Borsum

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At 01:16 PM 10/5/99 EDT, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Fascinating subject!

How are "test equipment", "Home Built" and "personal use" defined?  Or
perhaps, I should ask how those terms are consistently interpreted by the
enforcers?

Would the first five proto's of a data logger  used in environmental tests
that I personally built for testing its operation be exempt?

And, just how nasty does the enforcement get?

Thanks,
Kelly



William K. Borsum, P.E. -- OEM Dataloggers and Instrumentation Systems
<TakeThisOuTborsumEraseMEspamspam_OUTdascor.com> & <http://www.dascor.com>San Diego, California, USA

1999\10\05@191951 by Keith Causey

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Hey Guys,
   Has anybody here ever worked with three phase motors like the ones used
in floppy disk drives? It seems to be a DAC problem.
   Thanks

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