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'[OT] Disk imageing software'
2005\12\30@140318 by John Nall

picon face
I need to upgrade to a larger hard drive, and want to just write an
image of  the old drive to the new drive, so  that I can thereafter just
boot from the new one.  (The old drive is just about to give up the
ghost, I think, and I'll just keep it on the shelf as a backup drive.  
The idea is to shut the barn door _before _the horses are gone. :-)

I've  googled around, and there clearly are software packages to do this
-- both free and for sale.  Does anyone have any experience with doing
this and, if so, what package would you recommend?   The system runs
both XP and Linux (dual boot) so software for either should be OK I
would think.

2005\12\30@141940 by Mario Mendes Jr.

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face
<snip>

(The old drive is just about to give up the ghost, I think, and I'll just
keep it on the shelf as a backup drive. The idea is to shut the barn door
_before _the horses are gone. :-)

<unsnip>

While I do not have any recommendations for you, I am very intersted in
finding out why you're going to use the old drive as a backup drive.  The
way I understood your post, your old/current drive is not reliable anymore
so you're going to replace/upgrade it.  Assuming that I understood you
correctly, why on earth would you rely on it to be a backup drive?


-Mario

2005\12\30@142835 by John Nall

picon face
Mario Mendes Jr. wrote:
> > While I do not have any recommendations for you, I am very intersted in
> finding out why you're going to use the old drive as a backup drive.  The
> way I understood your post, your old/current drive is not reliable anymore
> so you're going to replace/upgrade it.  Assuming that I understood you
> correctly, why on earth would you rely on it to be a backup drive?
>  

"Backup" only in the sense that it might serve in an emergency.  It
still works, but is several years old, doesn't have as much capacity as
I would like, and has failed once.  But it still works, and has all my
software on it.  Why in the world would I want to throw it away???  I
just don't want it as my main drive, that's all.  (The Dell Dimension
4300S only has room for one drive in the cabinet -- otherwise, I would
just add a second drive).


2005\12\30@143207 by Harold Hallikainen

face picon face

> <snip>
>
> (The old drive is just about to give up the ghost, I think, and I'll just
> keep it on the shelf as a backup drive. The idea is to shut the barn door
> _before _the horses are gone. :-)
>
> <unsnip>
>
> While I do not have any recommendations for you, I am very intersted in
> finding out why you're going to use the old drive as a backup drive.  The
> way I understood your post, your old/current drive is not reliable anymore
> so you're going to replace/upgrade it.  Assuming that I understood you
> correctly, why on earth would you rely on it to be a backup drive?
>
>


I've used Norton Ghost to make drive images of both Windoze and Linux
drives. Seems to work. I boot off a PC-DOS floppy with NG on it, then make
the image to an external USB drive.

Harold
--
FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com

2005\12\30@150103 by Rob Hamerling

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face


John Nall wrote:
> I need to upgrade to a larger hard drive, and want to just write an
> image of  the old drive to the new drive, so  that I can thereafter just
> boot from the new one.  (The old drive is just about to give up the
> ghost, I think, and I'll just keep it on the shelf as a backup drive.  
> The idea is to shut the barn door _before _the horses are gone. :-)
>
> I've  googled around, and there clearly are software packages to do this
> -- both free and for sale.  Does anyone have any experience with doing
> this and, if so, what package would you recommend?   The system runs
> both XP and Linux (dual boot) so software for either should be OK I
> would think.

I have good experience with DFSee: http://www.dfsee.com. It is
multiplatform (DOS,Win,Linux,OS/2), and the downloadable version is
full function. Nice feature is its scripting facility. Once I had
broken-off a partition move with DFSee after which two bootable
partitions were out of order. After sending in a disk analysis report
(with DFSee on a bootable diskette or USB stick) I received a custom
repair script within a few days and my system was back in business!

Regards, Rob.


--
Rob Hamerling, Vianen, NL phone +31-347-322822
homepage: http://www.robh.nl/

2005\12\30@150356 by Danny Sauer

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John wrote regarding '[OT] Disk imageing software' on Fri, Dec 30 at 13:06:
[...getting new hard drive, wants to migrate data to new drive...]

Are you getting an identical drive, or replacing with a larger drive?
Presumably larger - so are you wanting to resize any of the
partitions, keep them the same, etc?  If you're wanting to resize,
which is presumably the case, you'll want to take note of what
filesystems you're using.  Presumably the XP partition(s) use NTFS -
hopefully you're no a desktop without the "noresize" flag set, because
it becomes pretty much a problem for partition magic if you're using a
laptop (that "seems" to be the way XP decided to flag the partition -
desktop or laptop).  If Linux is using ext3, then ghost shoudl work
alright for you - you can get the "cheap" version for about $50, and
use it for backups as well as for this operation.

Since you're fine with Linux, I'll tell you how I'd do it the "no
cost" way.  With both drives in the system, either boot Linux into
single user mode - so syslogd, etc aren't running and changing things
around on the disk - or even better boot from a rescue disk /
installer disk.  Make sure that you know which device is the old drive
and which is the new one, and run
   dd if=/dev/olddrive of=/dev/newdrive bs=4096
where olddrive and newdrive are the actual drives (hda, sda,
whatever is appropriate).  That'll take a while - you may want to run
"hdparm -i /dev/whatever" to see if DMA is enabled on the drives
before running dd (run hdparm -d /dev/whatever to enable DMA).

The dd command will get you an exact copy of the old drive.  You'll
then need to resize the partitions.  If you have a rescue disk with
qtparted (http://www.sysresccd.org/), or if you otherwise have that on
your system, you can then use that program to move the partitions
around on the new drive.  That way, if something screws up on the new
drive, you can pretty easily start over from the old one again.

Or, of course, just buy a copy of Ghost - but know that Ghost won't
work with filesystems like Reiserfs, XFS, JFS, etc - and I'm not sure
that it works with ext3.  I know that Ghost doesn't work well with
grub, if you're using that bootloader.  It may work better with NTFS,
though.  You could use the dd method followed by Partion Magic, as
well, which might be the most reliable option for resizing the Windows
stuff, followed by changing partition boundaries and using
resize_reiserfs / ext2resize for the Linux side.

BTW, do ask if you need more information - I'm possibly assuming a bit
of knowledge on your part. :)

--Danny

2005\12\30@153745 by Herbert Graf

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On Fri, 2005-12-30 at 14:02 -0500, John Nall wrote:
> I need to upgrade to a larger hard drive, and want to just write an
> image of  the old drive to the new drive, so  that I can thereafter just
> boot from the new one.  (The old drive is just about to give up the
> ghost, I think, and I'll just keep it on the shelf as a backup drive.  
> The idea is to shut the barn door _before _the horses are gone. :-)
>
> I've  googled around, and there clearly are software packages to do this
> -- both free and for sale.  Does anyone have any experience with doing
> this and, if so, what package would you recommend?   The system runs
> both XP and Linux (dual boot) so software for either should be OK I
> would think.

My experience has been limited to Norton Ghost. If you were using just
Windows I would recommend it. However, since you mention Linux it makes
it much harder for me to recommend it.

Ghost is EXTREMELY sensitive to file system problems in Linux, it will
chug and chug and then just give up, telling you to go back and run
fsck. Running fsck will sometimes fix what's wrong, sometimes not.

Assuming you do finally get ghost to image your Linux stuff properly it
has no concept of a "boot loader" and ends up corrupting bootup. A linux
rescue disk fixes that.

It's taken me a long time and alot of work to find a flow that works
with Linux partitions and Ghost, and so far things are OK. But given the
headache I can't recommend it.

Now, small disclaimer, I've used a few versions of Ghost, the latest
I've used is about 2 years old. While it is far better then it's
predecessors, it still has the problems I've described above. Perhaps
the newest versions fix these problems, I'm not sure.

TTYL


-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\12\30@154106 by w d myrick

picon face
Acronis True Image is very good it will make a copy of the disk you want to
make an image of even if you boot from that disk.
It is the best I have ever used.. Cost is about $30.00  US.

Derwad



----- Original Message -----
From: "John Nall" <spam_OUTjwnallTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <.....piclistKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu>
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 1:02 PM
Subject: [OT] Disk imageing software


<snip>

2005\12\30@194543 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
John Nall wrote:

> (The Dell Dimension 4300S only has room for one drive in the cabinet --
> otherwise, I would just add a second drive).

I've more than once had a drive lying on the floor of the case. Unless you
move the case around a lot that's not really a problem... There's nothing
that says that those drives have to live in a bay. They are mostly tame and
behave well, even outside :)

Gerhard

2005\12\30@195009 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
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w d myrick wrote:
> Acronis True Image is very good it will make a copy of the disk you want to
> make an image of even if you boot from that disk.
> It is the best I have ever used.. Cost is about $30.00  US.

Ditto that.  Acronis wipes the floor with Norton Ghost.

They have various products for imaging, etc... all work well and RIGHT
the first time.

Nate

2005\12\31@000309 by Anand Dhuru

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I would vote for the DriveImage XML; bundle this with Bart's bootable CD,
which has a plugin for XML, and I think you have a great disaster recovery
tool. And, they are both free.

Regards,

Anand

{Original Message removed}

2005\12\31@010041 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Dec 30, 2005, at 11:02 AM, John Nall wrote:

> I need to upgrade to a larger hard drive, and want to just write
> an image of  the old drive to the new drive, so  that I can
> thereafter just boot from the new one.

I haven't had any problems with Norton ghost, moving around
various FAT32 windows partitions.  It seems to have creeping
featuritus, though; lots of differences between versions and
not necessarily compatibility of the image files...

I recently managed to resize a windows XP (NTFS) partition
using a gentoo System Rescue CD, which is actually a linux
system that boots from CD and doesn't touch disk unless you
tell it to (so it works on pure non-linux hard drives, for
instance.)  That was a reasonably pleasant experience...
It claims to include a "partition magic clone", as well as
a "Ghost/Drive-image clone."

http://www.sysresccd.org/

BillW

2005\12\31@054024 by Stef Mientki

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Nate Duehr wrote:

{Quote hidden}

and it's free for a month,
especially when creating a diskimage from one disk to a larger disk.
Perfect !

Stef

>Nate
>  
>


'[OT] Disk imageing software'
2006\01\02@014635 by Morgan Olsson
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Danny Sauer 21:03 2005-12-30:
>The dd command will get you an exact copy of the old drive.  You'll
>then need to resize the partitions.  If you have a rescue disk with
>qtparted (http://www.sysresccd.org/), or if you otherwise have that on
>your system, you can then use that program to move the partitions
>around on the new drive.  That way, if something screws up on the new
>drive, you can pretty easily start over from the old one again.

That CD is marvellous! :)
I used it for changing to larger and faster drive on my laptop, while keeeping the filesystems intact.  (It can also copy/restore MBR by the way).

The CD can use ethernet LAN, and Samba to talk to MSWin shares, so I booted on it, connected LAN, and dd the disk data to *this* old MSWin computer, changed drive, booted on CD angain, and dd back the filesystem on the laptop.  DONE.

(Basically.  There are also tricks to minimize the size of the data such as first defragmenting the filesystem and pach files at beginning, then shrink the partition.  Or fill up unused space with a large file conatining zeroes som compression on the dd data is efficient.  I do not remember the details.)

As dd copies bit by bit regardless of file system compatibility is a non-issue, as long as the new drive is equal or larger then the original.

There is a great manual with the CD.

/Morgan

--
Morgan Olsson, Kivik, Sweden

2006\01\02@174707 by Peter

picon face

> As dd copies bit by bit regardless of file system compatibility is a
> non-issue, as long as the new drive is equal or larger then the
> original.

AND AS LONG AS ALL ACCESS IS LBA ONLY

Peter

2006\01\15@082640 by John Nall

picon face
Stef Mientki, Nate Duehr and w d myrick (combined messages) wrote:
>>> Acronis True Image is very good it will make a copy of the disk you want to
>>> make an image of even if you boot from that disk.
>>> It is the best I have ever used.. Cost is about $30.00  US.
>>>      
>> Ditto that.  Acronis wipes the floor with Norton Ghost.
>>
>> They have various products for imaging, etc... all work well and RIGHT
>> the first time.
>>    
> and it's free for a month,
> especially when creating a diskimage from one disk to a larger disk.
> Perfect !
>  

To recall the original problem, my harddisk is showing signs of wanting
to fail, and I wanted to replace it with a new, bigger disk.  The
question was what might be  the best way to clone the old one to the new
one.  Following the above advice, I used Acronis in  the "automatic"
cloning mode to copy the old disk to the new disk (the old disk is 40GB
and the new disk is 120GB).  The documentation said that the partition
sizes would proportionally increase but that otherwise everything would
be the same.  When I ran it, it found some errors on the old disk, which
I told it to ignore (what else could I do?) but claimed to have
successfully completed the cloning.

However, the new disk will not boot up.  It just sits there, displaying
the single word: "GRUB."   (This is a dual-boot disk, with both Windows
XP and Linux (FC4) on it, and of course Grub is the boot loader).  So
Acronis didn't do it for me.  :-(

This is not a gripe (although it may sound like it :-)  Just reporting
that Acronis didn't do the trick.  My guess would be that it has to do
with the errors reading the old disk.

John

2006\01\15@091632 by Philip Pemberton

face picon face
In message <43CA4D8E.5090307spamKILLspamcomcast.net>
         John Nall <.....jwnallKILLspamspam.....gmail.com> wrote:

> However, the new disk will not boot up.  It just sits there, displaying
> the single word: "GRUB."   (This is a dual-boot disk, with both Windows
> XP and Linux (FC4) on it, and of course Grub is the boot loader).  So
> Acronis didn't do it for me.  :-(

Boot from a Linux rescue CD - the install CDs for most Linux distros can be
used in some form of "rescue mode". I'm pretty sure Fedora can do it, but I'm
not sure how.

What you want to do is get to some form of command prompt and mount your
Linux partition. Mounting it is easy enough:
 mkdir /mnt/oldlin
 mount /dev/hda1 /mnt/oldlin
 chroot /mnt/oldlin
 
Now you're sitting at a root shell from the perspective of your preinstalled
Linux system. Chroot is in effect making the kernel tack "/mnt/oldlin" on to
every path that gets accessed. The shell thinks you're accessing /, but in
effect you're accessing your own local system.

Now type:
 /sbin/grub-install /dev/hda
 
That'll reinstall GRUB into the MBR of the primary master hard drive and
should fix the references to the disc partition that stores the GRUB config
file and second-stage loader. Hit Ctrl-Alt-Del, eject the CD, then see if
GRUB starts up (it should).

I've done this with LILO a few times, but the same concept should apply to
GRUB.

--
Phil.                              | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT
EraseMEphilpemspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTdsl.pipex.com              | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB
http://www.philpem.me.uk/          | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook
... Can I blame my spelling on Line Noise?

2006\01\15@105844 by Wayne Topa

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part 1 2337 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=us-asciiJohn Nall(jwnallspamspam_OUTgmail.com) is reported to have said:
{Quote hidden}

John

 I wrote this a long time ago but used it quite a bit during my early Linux tests.

 Hope it might be useful.

 Wayne
 
--
Information Center, n.:
 A room staffed by professional computer people whose job it is
 to tell you why you cannot have the information you require.
_______________________________________________________


part 2 2552 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=us-ascii
#!/bin/sh
# Script to transfer filesystems from one Hard Drive to another

# Written by Wayne Topa (wtopa <@spam@huntbrittanyKILLspamspamintergate.com>)
# GPL software - If you can use it - do.


# some subroutines

confirm() {
 echo -e "OK? \c"
 while true
 do
   read x
   case "$x" in
     y | yes | Y | Yes | YES )
       return 0;;
     n | no | N | No | NO )
       echo
       echo "Cancelled"
       return 1;;
     *) echo "Please enter yes or no" ;;
   esac
 done
}


# Program Start
# Check for existance of /mnt - exit w/msg if not
# Unmount /mnt (in case it is mounted)
# Ask for filesystem to transfer
# Ask for drive partition to transfer to
# Get another dir, if required
# Make sure data was entered correctly
# Make ext2 filesystem on DEST (if OK)
# mount drive partition to /mnt
# cd to filesystem to and tar(copy) to destination
# Compare original filesystem to transfered filesystem
# unmount /mnt

if [ ! -e /mnt ]; then
 echo ; echo
 echo " Transfer requires that you have a /mnt directory "
 echo " please create one and try again."
 exit 1
else
 echo " Unmounting /mnt"
 umount /mnt
fi

echo
echo -n "Which directory to transfer FROM: (ie /usr): "
read DIR

echo
echo -n "Partition to transfer TO: (ie /dev/hdb2) : "
read DEST

echo
echo "NOTE: this applies ONLY to multiple partition filesystems."
echo "If you are transfering to a specific dir on $DEST"
echo "( ie /etc on / partition) enter it here ( ie /etc )."
echo "If that dir doesn't exist, it will be created"
echo "Enter ret if none"
read DESTDIR
echo

echo "About to create an ext2 filesystem on $DEST"
if confirm ; then
 echo "Creating ext2 file system on $DEST"
 mke2fs -c $DEST
fi

echo
echo  "About to COPY $DIR to $DEST mounted on /mnt$DESTDIR"
if confirm ; then
   echo "Mounting $DEST on /mnt"
   mount $DEST /mnt
   if [ ! -e /mnt$DESTDIR ] ; then
     mkdir /mnt/$DESTDIR
   fi  
   ( cd $DIR ; tar clf - . ) | ( cd /mnt$DESTDIR ; tar xvpBf - )
   echo
   echo "About to diff-r $DIR & $DEST$DESTDIR"
   if confirm ; then
     echo " Wait - Comparing $DIR to $DEST$DESTDIR with diff -r "
     diff -r $DIR /mnt$DESTDIR | less
   fi
   echo ; echo "Here is $DIR"
   ls $DIR
   echo
   echo ; echo "Here is $DEST$DESTDIR"
   ls /mnt$DESTDIR
   echo
   echo unmounting /mnt
   umount /mnt
fi  
exit 0

 


part 3 35 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(decoded 7bit)

2006\01\15@110537 by Stef Mientki

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>This is not a gripe (although it may sound like it :-)  Just reporting
>that Acronis didn't do the trick.  My guess would be that it has to do
>with the errors reading the old disk.
>
>John
>  
>
Sorry, I cann't help you with your problem.
But for the record, I've now found a freeware program "DriveImage XML",
that works (as far as I tried) equally well.

succes with solving the problems,

Stef

2006\01\15@124933 by John Nall

picon face
Phillip Pemberton wrote:

> > Boot from a Linux rescue CD - the install CDs for most Linux distros can be
> used in some form of "rescue mode". I'm pretty sure Fedora can do it, but I'm
> not sure how.
.
You were pretty much on target, although the exact sequence that you
wrote didn't work for me.  But it did give me enough information to fix
things, and I am grateful for your advice.

Just FYI, here is the sequence for the Fedora 4 distro:

(a)  Download FC4 rescue disk (it is normally right there with the other
FC4 ISO's)
(b)  Boot the FC4 rescue disk, and go through  the steps to mount your
FC4 partition (easy to follow directions)
(c)   Then type the following:
              chroot /mnt/sysimage
              grub-install /dev/hda
(d)  Reboot the system and everything is cool!

Great!  Sure gives one a panicky feeling when suddenly nothing works!  
But it is almost worth it for the good, exhilarating feeling you get
when you fix things!  :-)

Regards,
John

2006\01\15@132445 by John Nall

picon face
John Nall wrote:
> You were pretty much on target, although the exact sequence that you
> wrote didn't work for me. But it did give me enough information to fix
> things, and I am grateful for your advice.

Just to clarify, BTW, the Acronis cloning operation apparently somehow
got the MBR messed up.  Probably because of the ignored disk errors.  So
nothing would boot.  I used the Windows XP installation disk, in rescue
mode, to fix the MBR (using the command FIXMBR) but  then it would only
boot Windows.  After that, used the FC4 rescue disk with Grub to make it
capable of booting either Windows or Linux, as it did before all this
started.   What I did was to repair all the damage I apparently caused.  
:-)  Or, as Pogo so nicely phrased it:  "We have met the enemy, and he
is us."

John

2006\01\15@144823 by Herbert Graf

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On Sun, 2006-01-15 at 08:26 -0500, John Nall wrote:
> However, the new disk will not boot up.  It just sits there, displaying
> the single word: "GRUB."   (This is a dual-boot disk, with both Windows
> XP and Linux (FC4) on it, and of course Grub is the boot loader).  So
> Acronis didn't do it for me.  :-(
>
> This is not a gripe (although it may sound like it :-)  Just reporting
> that Acronis didn't do the trick.  My guess would be that it has to do
> with the errors reading the old disk.

This is a common problem, the clone went fine.

The problem (and Ghost does the same thing) is that while the clone
happens the boot manager isn't copied over correctly. This results in
the "GRUB" you see.

Best solution? Boot from the disk 1 of the Linux distro you have in
rescue mode and simply restore your boot loader.

For grub it's something like this, at the command line:

grub
root (hd0, 0)
setup (hd0)
quit
exit

This will restore your boot loader and restart the system.

Note the root and setup lines might differ (I'm going from memory) but
grub has a rudimentary help system that should guide you without
problems.

TTYL

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2006\01\15@150618 by John Nall

picon face
Herbert Graf wrote:
> >  This is a common problem, the clone went fine.
>
> The problem (and Ghost does the same thing) is that while the clone
> happens the boot manager isn't copied over correctly. This results in
> the "GRUB" you see.
>  
.
Well, as you have probably read by now, I have the problem cleared up.  
It is nice to know that the clone went OK, however, as I was worried
whether or not there might be other problems that I have yet to
encounter.  So apparently there was just that one glitch.

Just as a side comment, however, it seems to me that if Disk B is not
_exactly _the same as Disk A after the clone operation has completed --
that the boot manager isn't copied over correctly -- then the clone did
not go fine.  I thought the definition of "clone" meant that they were
equal in every respect?

2006\01\15@155220 by Herbert Graf

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On Sun, 2006-01-15 at 15:06 -0500, John Nall wrote:
> Herbert Graf wrote:
> > >  This is a common problem, the clone went fine.
> >
> > The problem (and Ghost does the same thing) is that while the clone
> > happens the boot manager isn't copied over correctly. This results in
> > the "GRUB" you see.
> >  
> .
> Well, as you have probably read by now, I have the problem cleared up.  
> It is nice to know that the clone went OK, however, as I was worried
> whether or not there might be other problems that I have yet to
> encounter.  So apparently there was just that one glitch.
>
> Just as a side comment, however, it seems to me that if Disk B is not
> _exactly _the same as Disk A after the clone operation has completed --
> that the boot manager isn't copied over correctly -- then the clone did
> not go fine.  I thought the definition of "clone" meant that they were
> equal in every respect?

You have to be careful of the definition of "clone".

If you make a bit-to-bit copy of a Linux drive, and the drive geometry
isn't identical, the clone CAN be identical, but you still won't be able
to boot.

The reason is you DON'T want an exact copy. You want a program that will
make an exact copy of all your data, but at the same time be able to
"interpret" the "nitty gritty" and modify it accordingly. Examples are
the partition table (same partition + different drive geometry =
garbage), and the boot sector.

Ghost and programs like that "interpret" the partition table and the
boot loaders used for windows/dos correctly, but for Linux they simply
crap out. It's a shame, and VERY frustrating when you don't understand
what's going on, but that's just the way it is.

Blame the software makers for not supporting Linux properly, but at
least Linux gives you the tools to fix the problem yourself.

TTYL

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2006\01\15@171245 by Philip Pemberton

face picon face
In message <KILLspam43CA8B29.7070201KILLspamspamgmail.com>
         John Nall <RemoveMEjwnallTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:

> Just FYI, here is the sequence for the Fedora 4 distro:
>
> (a)  Download FC4 rescue disk (it is normally right there with the other
> FC4 ISO's)
> (b)  Boot the FC4 rescue disk, and go through  the steps to mount your
> FC4 partition (easy to follow directions)
> (c)   Then type the following:
>                chroot /mnt/sysimage
>                grub-install /dev/hda
> (d)  Reboot the system and everything is cool!

I thought it would be something like that. I based my message on my
experiences with the Slackware install CDs - I'm using Fedora on my desktops,
but I've never had to boot using the Rescue part of the install CD. My
network server, OTOH, is running Slackware 10.1 and has been booted from CD
in rescue mode at least three times - once after hosing LILO, once after
hosing the ReiserFS root partition (reiserfsck --rebuild-tables in
single-user mode fixed that) and again after making the machine unbootable
during a botched kernel upgrade...

The saying's true - Linux isn't unfriendly, it's just very picky about who it
considers to be a friend :)

> Great!  Sure gives one a panicky feeling when suddenly nothing works!  
> But it is almost worth it for the good, exhilarating feeling you get
> when you fix things!  :-)

Isn't it just :)

--
Phil.                              | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT
spamBeGonephilpemspamBeGonespamdsl.pipex.com              | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB
http://www.philpem.me.uk/          | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook
... Not a computer nerd; merely a techno-weenie.

2006\01\17@024108 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face
Herbert Graf wrote:

> If you make a bit-to-bit copy of a Linux drive, and the drive geometry
> isn't identical, the clone CAN be identical, but you still won't be able
> to boot.
>
> The reason is you DON'T want an exact copy. You want a program that will
> make an exact copy of all your data, but at the same time be able to
> "interpret" the "nitty gritty" and modify it accordingly. Examples are
> the partition table (same partition + different drive geometry =
> garbage), and the boot sector.

Haven't been around to chime in on this yet, but...

I think when you see "GRUB" and nothing else, what really happened is
that the MBR copied perfectly.  The MBR holds a small first-stage
bootloader and a vector (address) pointing to the 2nd stage.  And on a
new disk, that address is flat-out wrong after a bit-for-bit copy unless
both disks were using LBA and the sector just happened to come out in
exactly the same place... that or the original disk and the new disk
were identical clones, including disk type, manufacturer (probably) and
geometry.

Everything's an LBA device pretty much these days, but bootloaders don't
like all that "relative" stuff.  They need to know exactly where to jump
to until they can get enough code/brains loaded to follow things like
filesystems.  LILO was worse than GRUB in that you couldn't change the
configuration without completely re-writing the bootloader to disk...
forgetting to run /sbin/lilo after installing a new kernel was a common
mistake... GRUB can at least load up enough intelligence to look inside
/boot by way of a pointer directly to a device name...

> Ghost and programs like that "interpret" the partition table and the
> boot loaders used for windows/dos correctly, but for Linux they simply
> crap out. It's a shame, and VERY frustrating when you don't understand
> what's going on, but that's just the way it is.

Yes, frustrating, but easily fixable.

> Blame the software makers for not supporting Linux properly, but at
> least Linux gives you the tools to fix the problem yourself.

Yep.

Re-running grub-install goes out and rebuilds the 1st and 2nd stage
bootloaders and checks the mountpoint used for GRUB's /boot/grub
directory for the various files needed for the 2nd stage, including
menu.1st, where the menu structure lives.

GRUB also has a command-line built into the 1st stage... I think that's
what the original poster was seeing.  You can actually (if you know GRUB
command syntax) still boot the box manually from there, if you know
where your 2nd stage wandered off to...

Nate

2006\01\17@062051 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Nate Duehr wrote:

>> Blame the software makers for not supporting Linux properly, but at
>> least Linux gives you the tools to fix the problem yourself.
>
> Yep.

Hm... or blame the user who uses a Windows app (or app with Windows
support) on disk with a Linux bootloader? Wouldn't have happened with a
decent Linux cloning app, I suppose. And I wouldn't expect a Linux cloning
app to necessarily clone Windows dynamic disks properly. (In both cases of
course unless it's specifically mentioned as supported.)

Gerhard

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