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'[OT] DDR Memory voltage and system cooling'
2005\03\27@190128 by Jinx

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> Generally the way ATX is meant to be done is air is sucked into
> the case on the front, and blown out of the back. If you're mounting
> a fan on the back it should blow OUT of the case.

I've wondered about that. Mine has fans for PSU, MPU and graphics
card and a space for a general fan on the back. I'd have thought the
back of the case is just as leaky as the front and of course closer to
the fans so would air circulate properly ? eg would the HDD at the
front get any decent airflow around it ? (thinking of adding a fan to
specifically cool the drive bay) and have the back fan force air into
the case

Nothing done yet because the side's been off for weeks ;-)

2005\03\27@202359 by Herbert Graf

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On Mon, 2005-03-28 at 12:01 +1200, Jinx wrote:
> > Generally the way ATX is meant to be done is air is sucked into
> > the case on the front, and blown out of the back. If you're mounting
> > a fan on the back it should blow OUT of the case.
>
> I've wondered about that. Mine has fans for PSU, MPU and graphics
> card and a space for a general fan on the back. I'd have thought the
> back of the case is just as leaky as the front and of course closer to
> the fans so would air circulate properly ? eg would the HDD at the
> front get any decent airflow around it ? (thinking of adding a fan to
> specifically cool the drive bay) and have the back fan force air into
> the case

ATX was designed at a time where the single fan in the power supply was
often enough (sometimes the CPU also had a fan, but that was relatively
rare). As TDPs increased more and more fans were just "thrown" into the
case, hoping that temps would remain "safe".

I just put together an ATX Athlon 64 system, it had 7 fans. That's
right, 7 fans. Two fans in the power supply, one fan on the front of the
case, one fan on the back, one fan on the side, one fan on the NB and
finally another fan on the GPU. Suffice it to say that is one LOUD
computer. And even with all that because of the orientation of the DIMMs
they COOK.

ATX is no longer appropriate for CPUs like prescott (with TDPs of 100W+,
never mind the 135W TDP of the dual core stuff around the corner),
that's why Intel is trying to shove BTX on all of us. It at least has
been designed from the ground up to funnel heat out of the case
efficiently as possible.

I personally see this as a wasted effort. The latest Intel CPU burns
more power through leakage then what it burns doing actual work. Wasting
100W+ just to heat is incredible and simply "nuts" IMHO, especially when
you look at a CPU like banias.

> Nothing done yet because the side's been off for weeks ;-)

Absolutely the WORST thing you can do if you're concerned about heat, by
removing the side panel you completely loose the "wind tunnel" effect
and the components are left to get rid of their heat mostly through
radiation. TTYL


-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\03\27@203547 by Dave VanHorn

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>
>I just put together an ATX Athlon 64 system, it had 7 fans. That's
>right, 7 fans. Two fans in the power supply, one fan on the front of the
>case, one fan on the back, one fan on the side, one fan on the NB and
>finally another fan on the GPU. Suffice it to say that is one LOUD
>computer. And even with all that because of the orientation of the DIMMs
>they COOK.

Hmm.. My system (granted three years old) has been running nice and cool,
and the biggest problem I had with it was bypassing the alarm so that the
system would boot without a CPU fan.

It has three 5" variable speed fans, and water blocks that cool the CPU and
hard drives through the large radiator under the fans.
84 degrees on the CPU water block at the moment.

Koolance.


2005\03\27@210140 by Jinx

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> > Nothing done yet because the side's been off for weeks ;-)
>
> Absolutely the WORST thing you can do if you're concerned
> about heat

Consider me warned. As the side is off anyway I may as well
put that fan in and close it up

2005\03\28@055642 by Howard Winter

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Herbert,

On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 20:23:34 -0500, Herbert Graf wrote:

> I just put together an ATX Athlon 64 system, it had 7 fans. That's
> right, 7 fans. Two fans in the power supply, one fan on the front of the
> case, one fan on the back, one fan on the side, one fan on the NB and
> finally another fan on the GPU. Suffice it to say that is one LOUD
> computer. And even with all that because of the orientation of the DIMMs
> they COOK.

For some reason the tendency recently has been to add more exhaust fans, first on the back below the PSU
(which is exhausting anyway), then the side and/or the top of the case - presumably because "getting the heat
out" is the aim.  But still with just one intake fan on the front (occasionally two).  The net result is a
lowering of air pressure inside the case, which reduces the cooling effect.  (Consider the absolute, having a
vacuum in the case, to see why lowering the pressure is a Bad Thing!)  Having sufficient air blown into the
case is vital, and improving or adding to the intake fans would be a good way to go, although the flow has to
be considered - no point reversing the rear case fan unles you can divert the air downwards, because otherwise
it will just go straight out through the PSU without doing any good.

Good Luck!


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\03\28@070244 by Russell McMahon
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>> I just put together an ATX Athlon 64 system, it had 7 fans. That's
>> right, 7 fans.

> For some reason the tendency recently has been to add more exhaust
> fans, first on the back below the PSU
> (which is exhausting anyway), then the side and/or the top of the
> case - presumably because "getting the heat
> out" is the aim.

My desktop PC (actually desk underneath PC) has its temperature alarm
set at maximum setting. On average NZ summer days when doing a cpu
intensive task it would start doing a good imitation of a two tone
emergency vehicle siren. Easy solution was to remove case side and
position a large (500mm dia?) pedestal fan sans pedestal against the
open side blowing large quantities of air into PC. Not pretty, but it
works.


       RM

2005\03\28@080827 by Jake Anderson

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right wrong or indifferent taking the side off a PC has always in my
experience cooled it down CPU core and system temps generally drop by a fair
few degrees.
i'm using Xeons and they are set to suck air through the heatsink and blow
it out the top so they help in that situation by getting hot air (in this
case ~160W (i got 2 of them)) out of the case.

> {Original Message removed}

2005\03\28@082732 by Russell McMahon

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> right wrong or indifferent taking the side off a PC has always in my
> experience cooled it down CPU core and system temps generally drop
> by a fair
> few degrees.

The side was already off (what use are sides ? :-) ).

       RM

2005\03\28@083713 by Dave VanHorn

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At 08:27 AM 3/28/2005, Russell McMahon wrote:
>>right wrong or indifferent taking the side off a PC has always in my
>>experience cooled it down CPU core and system temps generally drop by a fair
>>few degrees.
>
>The side was already off (what use are sides ? :-) ).

They do cut down on the noise and RF emissions, plus they make a nice snack
tray in a pinch.


2005\03\28@084812 by Jake Anderson

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well if you keep your PC on the floor
they can help keep feet out
and mice
a friend of mine had his computer blow up one night
when a mouse went to the loo on his motherboard
he was *not* a happy camper let me tell you.
(not to mention his computer still smelt like
fried mouse wizz at the next LAN and no pun or
tastless remark was spared on him)

> {Original Message removed}

2005\03\28@120201 by Herbert Graf

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On Mon, 2005-03-28 at 11:56 +0000, Howard Winter wrote:
> Herbert,
>
> On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 20:23:34 -0500, Herbert Graf wrote:
>
> > I just put together an ATX Athlon 64 system, it had 7 fans. That's
> > right, 7 fans. Two fans in the power supply, one fan on the front of the
> > case, one fan on the back, one fan on the side, one fan on the NB and
> > finally another fan on the GPU. Suffice it to say that is one LOUD
> > computer. And even with all that because of the orientation of the DIMMs
> > they COOK.
>
> For some reason the tendency recently has been to add more exhaust fans, first on the back below the PSU
> (which is exhausting anyway), then the side and/or the top of the case - presumably because "getting the heat
> out" is the aim.  But still with just one intake fan on the front (occasionally two).  The net result is a
> lowering of air pressure inside the case, which reduces the cooling effect.  (Consider the absolute, having a
> vacuum in the case, to see why lowering the pressure is a Bad Thing!)  Having sufficient air blown into the
> case is vital, and improving or adding to the intake fans would be a good way to go, although the flow has to
> be considered - no point reversing the rear case fan unles you can divert the air downwards, because otherwise
> it will just go straight out through the PSU without doing any good.

Please note that the choice of fans for the PC I built was not my own, I
was just the monkey putting everything together.

But you are correct, in all the systems I'm built for myself I have one
or two large fans sucking air INTO the case.

The problem with that though is it makes things very noisy, fans at the
back of a case, even if excessive in number, tend to produce less noise
since they are buried so deeply. And, of course, there's the marketing
factor of "I have 7 fans, the competition ONLY have 6...".

If I were forced to build a system right now based on an Intel CPU I
would certainly NOT choose the P4, it's simply to wasteful in every way.
The Pentium M is far more efficient and almost as powerful. TTYL

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\03\28@120210 by Herbert Graf

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On Mon, 2005-03-28 at 23:08 +1000, Jake Anderson wrote:
> right wrong or indifferent taking the side off a PC has always in my
> experience cooled it down CPU core and system temps generally drop by a fair
> few degrees.
> i'm using Xeons and they are set to suck air through the heatsink and blow
> it out the top so they help in that situation by getting hot air (in this
> case ~160W (i got 2 of them)) out of the case.

There is no doubt that removing the side of the case will result in a
lower CPU and NB temp. However, one must remember that those aren't the
only two components that generate heat.

The HD and memory are the ones that suffer IMMENSELY if you remove the
side, with no air flow past them they can easily cook themselves to
death. I've seen it happen.

I know of two cases where someone removed the side panel on a system
because they noticed the reported CPU and NB temp dropped. In one case
it took 3 months for the HD to fail. In another it took only 1 month...
In both cases the HDs were too hot to touch.

TTYL

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\03\28@140550 by William Chops Westfield

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On Mar 27, 2005, at 6:01 PM, Jinx wrote:

>>> Nothing done yet because the side's been off for weeks ;-)
>>
>> Absolutely the WORST thing you can do if you're concerned
>> about heat
>>

This may be true of carefully designed cases with carefully
designed airflow.  I don't think the average tower PC even comes
close.  MOST systems don't come close, and just let the chips cool
to ambient, and use a case fan to keep "ambient" from climbing
continuously.  Now, if you've got a dozen heat-sinked chips on
a card you want to fit in 2U of rack space, THEN you start seeing
systems that you can't take the cover off without alarms going off.

BillW

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