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'[OT] Cultural (in)sensitivities'
2011\03\12@054125 by Gerhard Fiedler

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Hello all,

this is seriously OT (hence in OT :) and sort of a personal request.

I've been given "heat" by Bob because he seems to think that with the
message cited below I have attacked and criticised the USA as a country.
However, despite repeated request, he never actually explained to me
what was offensive, claiming that I'm not capable of understanding --
yet requesting from me to be culturally sensitive.

I disagree, and think that if there was something, I am capable of
understanding. So if any of you felt attacked or offended in her or his
national pride by this sub-thread, please let me know -- offlist. This
is a sincere attempt to understand whether there is something I am
missing, and increase my cultural sensitivity (as requested).


I think I was comparing two taxation methods, giving some arguments why
I think one is better (by my own, stated criteria) and asking why Olin
seems to think the other is better. Olin usually has reasons for what he
thinks (even if I don't always agree), so I wanted to hear them -- I
tend to learn more from the ones that disagree with me :)
IMO there is nothing disrespectful about comparing different taxation
methods, even if these are currently employed in different countries.
(FWIW, it seems the state of Michigan did have a VAT-style tax for a
while. They probably didn't think it was unpatriotic. I also didn't even
remotely touch the (political) discussion around the introduction of a
federal VAT in the USA.)

Thanks,
Gerhard


Gerhard Fiedler wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> straightforward, and has less bureaucracy involved

2011\03\12@080311 by V G

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On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 5:41 AM, Gerhard Fiedler <spam_OUTlistsTakeThisOuTspamconnectionbrazil.com
> wrote:

> [...] attacked and criticised the USA as a country.


There shouldn't be anything wrong with that

2011\03\12@085423 by RussellMc

face picon face
>> [...] attacked and criticised the USA as a country.

Ice warning:

> There shouldn't be anything wrong with that.

As a Canadian, or resident of Canadia [tm] you should be conversant
with the metaphor "Skating on thin ice" :-).

This is not appropriate behaviour for this list for whatever reason.
If you want to do such please see meet Bob behind the bike shed after lectures.

Criticism of countries for whatever reason is liable to lead to
yelling and shouting sooner than later and also is a vanishingly poor
fit to the objectives of the list.

Various lines of thought or conversation can intentionally achieve or
tend to achieve this result, and some are more sensitive to the
undercurrents.

End of ice warning:.

R


2011\03\12@092534 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
On 12/03/2011 13:53, RussellMc wrote:
>>> [...] attacked and criticised the USA as a country.
> Ice warning:
>
>> >  There shouldn't be anything wrong with that.
> As a Canadian, or resident of Canadia [tm] you should be conversant
> with the metaphor "Skating on thin ice":-).

people always underestimate
1) How what was said will appear to others
2) How thin skinned everyone else is.

There is probably a more appropriate list I think.
http://www.politics.ie is one place, I'm sure there is some place more international

2011\03\12@100048 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
> I think I was comparing two taxation methods, giving some arguments
> why I think one is better (by my own, stated criteria) and asking why
> Olin seems to think the other is better. Olin usually has reasons for
> what he thinks (even if I don't always agree), so I wanted to hear
> them -- I tend to learn more from the ones that disagree with me :)
>
> IMO there is nothing disrespectful about comparing different taxation
> methods, even if these are currently employed in different countries.

If I remember right, we were talking about buying things, which led to
mention of sales tax.  Someone asked about that, was confused, or said
something a little incorrect (I really don't remember now and it doesn't
matter), so I tried to clarify how the system works at least here in
Massachusetts.  Indirectly I made a comment that could have been taken as
saying one system of taxation was better than another, although that wasn't
the point of the message at all.

You picked up on that and clearly wanted to start one of your long drawn out
back and forth arguments on the subject.  When I saw your message, I thought
to myself "Oh crap, I didn't mean to get something like this started again",
and hit delete before I ever saw Bob's message.  These kinds of arguments
with you are long, tedious, take too much time, tedious, long, never result
in anything useful, and tedious.  Here we have the expression "beating a
dead horse", but I don't know how well that idiom is known internationally.
You pick on every little detail and won't let go.  That forces someone to
spend way more time than they want in defending their position, or look like
they're giving in by giving up.

You have a history of doing this.  In a recent case it was about physics,
which I feel I know something about and it is a scientific subject lots of
people on the list regularly run into.  After much back and forth, I finally
gave up and referred you to a book.  The book has more time than I.  I would
have happily given up earlier except I didn't want innocent bystanders to
get the wrong impression because giving up is often seen as giving in.

More recently we've seen the same pointless argument about archiving
software.  It is vaguely releated to what we do, but not to EE (where was
Bob for that?).  It has been tedious just watching.  This time if I remember
right, MW was the one who kept wanting to argue for argument's sake,
although I remember (perhaps incorrectly) you jumped in a few times to
continue kicking the dead horse that shouldn't have even been here in the
first place.  In the past you've been on and on about the metric system, and
seem to like implying that those that uses anything else are stupid.

I think Bob had a pretty good idea where this was headed and was correct in
cutting it off.  However, I took nothing you said as offensive.  There was a
reasonable possibility you eventually would have gotten to explaining how
the american taxation system was outdated and stupid, and vaguely implying
we are all a bunch of knuckle-dragging apes for having been born here.  Now
to be clear, I know you'd never come right out and say that.  It would be
guilt by vague reference and association.

While you didn't actually say anything offensive, and you would have been
careful not to do so overtly, to me the main point of stopping the
conversation was because it was going to be long and tedious and about
politics.  While I think Bob was correct, I also think he was unnecessarily
harsh in stopping the thread (just my recollection, I didn't go back and
check).  He could have been nicer about it and just said that this is
getting into politics and please stop.

You asked.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2011\03\12@104806 by Oli Glaser

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On 12/03/2011 15:01, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> You have a history of doing this.

:-)
People just won't behave will they?
(wonder how long my rap sheet is..)

> More recently we've seen the same pointless argument about archiving
> software.  It is vaguely releated to what we do, but not to EE (where was
> Bob for that?).  It has been tedious just watching.  This time if I remember
> right, MW was the one who kept wanting to argue for argument's sake,
> although I remember (perhaps incorrectly) you jumped in a few times to
> continue kicking the dead horse that shouldn't have even been here in the
> first place.


Seriously Olin, what is wrong with folk talking about version control systems or archiving software? Just because you don't find the subject interesting does not mean it does not belong here (I agree not in EE, but that's no big deal)
Enough people seemed to find it worth discussing, and the ones that don't are free to ignore it (no?)
I also find the mention of someone arguing for arguments sake rather ironic, but in any case why assume the worst motives - could it not be simply that someone feels passionately about the discussion and the point they are making?

2011\03\12@112624 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Oli Glaser wrote:
> Seriously Olin, what is wrong with folk talking about version control
> systems or archiving software?

It's yet another step decending into the abyss of being a computer system
admin list instead of a PIC list.  There has been way way too much of that
already.

2011\03\12@113525 by V G

picon face
On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Olin Lathrop <.....olin_piclistKILLspamspam@spam@embedinc.com>wrote:

> Oli Glaser wrote:
> > Seriously Olin, what is wrong with folk talking about version control
> > systems or archiving software?
>
> It's yet another step decending into the abyss of being a computer system
> admin list instead of a PIC list.  There has been way way too much of that
> already.


It's still technically a valid off topic discussion, but someone put it in
EE possibly by mistake. What's the big deal?

If someone makes me a time machine, I'll make sure that the first thing I do
is bring it back and change the tag to OT

2011\03\12@115101 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
On 12/03/2011 16:26, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Oli Glaser wrote:
>> Seriously Olin, what is wrong with folk talking about version control
>> systems or archiving software?
> It's yet another step decending into the abyss of being a computer system
> admin list instead of a PIC list.  There has been way way too much of that
> already.
>

It's certainly true that a minority of traffic is directly PIC related. Even though it may be interesting. Maybe rename the list t match reality? The PIC and other EE/Tech topics list?

2011\03\12@120402 by Oli Glaser

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On 12/03/2011 16:26, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Oli Glaser wrote:
>> Seriously Olin, what is wrong with folk talking about version control
>> systems or archiving software?
> It's yet another step decending into the abyss of being a computer system
> admin list instead of a PIC list.  There has been way way too much of that
> already.
>

If there was never any intention of stuff other than PICs (or even EE) being discussed, then why the OT, TECH tags?
It's not like there is too much traffic on here - I personally enjoy the diversity of discussion here. The rules are reasonably clear about politics, religion and stuff, but I have not seen any mention of systems administration being taboo :-)
To be quite honest such discussions also bore me a bit, but I have no problem with them. I view VCS/archiving as a necessary evil so if someone mentions some advice/tool that may make my life a bit easier then I'm all for it. A little similar to e.g. discussions on component storage maybe.

2011\03\12@123523 by YES NOPE9

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face
Just to be clear......
Olin, are you saying this list should be purely about PIC issues and nothing else ?  And the admins should butt out when you post ?
gus in denver  99gus


> On Mar 12, 2011, at 9:26 AM, Olin Lathrop wrote:
>
> Oli Glaser wrote:
>> Seriously Olin, what is wrong with folk talking about version control
>> systems or archiving software?
>
> It's yet another step decending into the abyss of being a computer system
> admin list instead of a PIC list.  There has been way way too much of that
> already.

2011\03\12@124206 by RussellMc

face picon face
> It's certainly true that a minority of traffic is directly PIC related.
> Even though it may be interesting. Maybe rename the list t match
> reality? The PIC and other EE/Tech topics list?

PIC and EE tags are very clearly described.
TECH reasonably sodepending whichfundamentaldifinition document you read :-).

As long as people stick to thetags then a person subscribed to just
PIC or PIC & EE need neverbe aware of he rest.


                   Russel

2011\03\12@135729 by Bob Blick

face
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On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 10:01 -0500, "Olin Lathrop" wrote:

> More recently we've seen the same pointless argument about archiving
> software.  It is vaguely releated to what we do, but not to EE (where was
> Bob for that?).  It has been tedious just watching.  
It bothered me too, but I was involved in tedious and seemingly endless
on- and off-list exchanges with Gerhard, and trying to get real work
done at the same time.

As a point of reference for anyone wanting to discuss computer software
general topics, it is OT.

Best regards,

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Does exactly what it says on the tin

2011\03\12@145438 by Bob Blick

face
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On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 07:41 -0300, "Gerhard Fiedler" wrote:
> this is seriously OT (hence in OT :) and sort of a personal request.
>
> I've been given "heat" by Bob because he seems to think that with the
> message cited below I have attacked and criticised the USA as a country.
> However, despite repeated request, he never actually explained to me
> what was offensive, claiming that I'm not capable of understanding --
> yet requesting from me to be culturally sensitive.

I think you have way too much time on your hands and spend it endlessly
on the Piclist basically churning away.

If you want to learn about cultural sensitivity, why don't you take some
of that time you spend on the Piclist and instead do some volunteer work
at a homeless shelter, or a school, or a church. You'll learn a lot
about people, and be doing something worthwhile in the process.

Best regards,

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Access all of your messages and folders
                         wherever you are

2011\03\12@162450 by Vitaliy

face
flavicon
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Bob Blick wrote:
> I think you have way too much time on your hands and spend it endlessly
> on the Piclist basically churning away.
>
> If you want to learn about cultural sensitivity, why don't you take some
> of that time you spend on the Piclist and instead do some volunteer work
> at a homeless shelter, or a school, or a church. You'll learn a lot
> about people, and be doing something worthwhile in the process.

I think plenty of people would rather see Bob Blick spending more of his time volunteering at a homeless shelter, or a school, or a church, than getting people to conform to his image of the PICList from 15 years ago. He may learn a lot about people, too (in the real world, you can't ban people you don't like).

Vitaliy

2011\03\12@172739 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Vitaliy wrote:
> I think plenty of people would rather see Bob Blick spending more of
> his time volunteering at a homeless shelter, or a school, or a
> church, than getting people to conform to his image of the PICList
> from 15 years ago.

I don't know nor care whether Bob enables the unemployed to stay that way,
the taxpayers to underfund the schools, or the religious to be more holier
than thou, but I do agree that the PIClist was a far more interesting place
a bunch of years ago.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2011\03\12@174044 by Bob Blick

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On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 14:23 -0700, "Vitaliy"  wrote:

> I think plenty of people would rather see Bob Blick spending more of his
> time volunteering at a homeless shelter, or a school, or a church, than
> getting people to conform to his image of the PICList from 15 years ago.

If you are interested in seeing my volunteer work, come on over and you
can help too.

> He
> may learn a lot about people, too (in the real world, you can't ban
> people
> you don't like).

Nobody is currently banned from the Piclist. Sure, we don't get to talk
about everything under the sun, and you feel limited by it, but if you
want to talk about PICs and electronics there is no better place for it.
All the admins have their own ideas how to steer the focus of the
Piclist. There are also other tasks you don't see. I deal with bounces,
subscription problems and helping users with their posting problems. I
take an active role in the administration of the Piclist. But when I
step in and stop a thread, it's natural that sometimes the recipient is
going to feel unjustly squelched. Especially since I am busy and don't
spend a long time composing my mail.

Again, the Piclist is a great place to talk about PICs and electronics.
That is the focus of the Piclist. Enjoy that. It's wonderful.

Best regards,

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software
                         or over the web

2011\03\12@175914 by Oli Glaser

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face
On 12/03/2011 22:40, Bob Blick wrote:
> But when I
> step in and stop a thread, it's natural that sometimes the recipient is
> going to feel unjustly squelched.

True, but maybe less so if you were a little more diplomatic...

2011\03\12@185723 by Bob Blick

face
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On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 22:58 +0000, "Oli Glaser" wrote:

> True, but maybe less so if you were a little more diplomatic...

I agree. But it doesn't come to me naturally. I have made progress and
continue to improve. When James was admin I was absolutely horrible to
him, unjustly so. But I continue to mature and hopefully someday
civility and decorum will be my default stance.

Friendly regards,

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own

2011\03\12@194706 by Vitaliy

face
flavicon
face
Bob Blick wrote:
>> I think plenty of people would rather see Bob Blick spending more of his
>> time volunteering at a homeless shelter, or a school, or a church, than
>> getting people to conform to his image of the PICList from 15 years ago.
>
> If you are interested in seeing my volunteer work, come on over and you
> can help too.

So you can have more time for "admin" work? No thanks. :)

FWIW, I think it's poor taste to constantly boast about your "volunteer work". People may get the wrong idea about your motivation for working in the soup kitchen. And I think it's obvious that your admin responsibilities do not include telling Gerhard or anyone else how to live their lives.

Vitaliy

2011\03\12@195548 by Vitaliy

face
flavicon
face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
>> I think plenty of people would rather see Bob Blick spending more of
>> his time volunteering at a homeless shelter, or a school, or a
>> church, than getting people to conform to his image of the PICList
>> from 15 years ago.
>
> I don't know nor care whether Bob enables the unemployed to stay that way,
> the taxpayers to underfund the schools, or the religious to be more holier
> than thou, but I do agree that the PIClist was a far more interesting
> place
> a bunch of years ago.

Are you sure your mind is not playing tricks on you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostalgia

I wasn't here 15 years ago, but I seem to remember that when I joined in 2002, the atmosphere was more free/tolerant. I doubt that censorship can restore the PICList to its former, "interesting" state.

Vitaliy

2011\03\13@095358 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Vitaliy wrote:
> I wasn't here 15 years ago, but I seem to remember that when I joined
> in 2002, the atmosphere was more free/tolerant. I doubt that
> censorship can restore the PICList to its former, "interesting" state.

I think I joined sometime in 2000.  The list was definitely different then.
Take a look at the archives, and you will see most messages were about PICs
and the electronics and physics around them.  That's what people come here
to talk about.

Then two things damaged the list.  James started getting heavy handed and
more off topic posts were tolerated.  As you say, censorship is not the
right answer.  In any large group of people, there will always be a little
friction.  These things will generally blow over without much fuss if you
just let them.  Unfotunately, James never got that.  He'd see a little
problem, step in to "fix" it, thereby creating a big problem with much
associated ruckus, then he'd blame the ruckus he causes on the original
small problem.  This of course caused him to be more heavy handed, which
caused more big problems, etc.  He finally stepped down, but way too late.

As for the off topic posts, that's another mechanism for any group like this
to deteriorate.  Some people wanted to talk about other things, and OT was
created and sanctioned for that.  That was a big mistake as it started down
the slippery slope of descent into drivel.  Of course people being people,
they aren't always good about tagging things properly.  For a long time, I
had OT turned off, but now so much real content gets mistagged as OT that
I'd be missing too much if I did that.  Unfortunately, that opens the flood
gates to the drivel too.  The PIC, EE, and TECH tags are mostly policed,
with Bob doing a particularly good job keeping EE clean.  However, keeping
drivel off the intended channels is only half the job.  It's just as
important, perhaps even more important, to make sure that the real content
goes to the right channel and not OT.  There are too many posters here that
routinely tag legitimate topics with OT, but nobody ever tells them to retag
to EE or PIC or whatever.

The only real solution is to recognize allowing people to talk about off
topics was a mistake.  OT should be removed, and the list server should
automatically ignore anything not properly tagged as PIC, EE, or TECH.
Allowing someone to catch untagged posts, tag them, and send them back to
the list is doing everyone a disservice.  If someone is too dumb to read the
docs and tag a post or too lazy to care, then we're better off without them..

There does need to be a way to discuss list administration and policy.  It's
not what people came here to talk about, but those that "live" here have
opinions on how things should be run and should have the right to kick them
around with other "citizens" and the admins.  I think the best way to do
that is with a LIST tag.  Usenet recognized this long ago and declared
discussions about the list to always be on topic.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2011\03\13@111941 by V G

picon face
I can't believe this discussion is actually taking place.

How about we all get together and play some sports? That should change
everybody's mood and attitude

2011\03\13@124248 by Bob Blick

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On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 11:19 -0400, "V G" wrote:
> I can't believe this discussion is actually taking place.
>
> How about we all get together and play some sports? That should change
> everybody's mood and attitude.

Or worse still, have a discussion about the merits of the designated
hitter rule. I have friends who can argue about that for an hour at a
time, day after day during baseball season :)

Cheerful regards,

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service

2011\03\13@124809 by V G

picon face
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Bob Blick <bobblickspamKILLspamftml.net> wrote:

> Or worse still, have a discussion about the merits of the designated
> hitter rule. I have friends who can argue about that for an hour at a
> time, day after day during baseball season :)


Well that just sucks the fun out of sports, doesn't it?

Seriously. When angry/sad/depressed, going the gym or some sort of intense
physical activity will turn your mood right around

2011\03\13@125319 by Bob Blick

face
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face
Those are all good points, and to some extent I agree with a lot of
them. But there are also some factors we can't control. The two that
immediately come to mind are the existence of the Microchip forum and
also that the popularity of PICs has changed the demographics of the
membership.

Best regards,

Bob

P.S. sorry for top posting, I am not commenting on each item but want to
leave the original for context.

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 08:54 -0500, "Olin Lathrop" wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2011\03\13@125642 by N. T.

picon face
V G wrote:

> How about we all get together and play some sports? That should change
> everybody's mood and attitude.
> --

Students in your campus, do they have some traditions about sport
games? Playing soccer all day long or something

2011\03\13@131344 by Oli Glaser

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On 13/03/2011 15:19, V G wrote:
> I can't believe this discussion is actually taking place.
>
> How about we all get together and play some sports? That should change
> everybody's mood and attitude.

Great idea, although I'd be rather wary of allowing us to play anything involving much physical contact.. :-)
Some online multiplayer shoot-em-up type thing would be cool - something like Doom/Quake, so I can chase Olin round with a (virtual) chainsaw.. :-)))

2011\03\13@141640 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Bob Blick wrote:
> and also that the popularity of PICs has changed the
> demographics of the membership.

It's good that PICs are popular, but unfortunately that has attracted too
many people that shouldn't be there.  That in turn has caused Microchip to
cater to the masses and try to make it look like PICs are so eeeezzzzy.
"Just clickety-click on the Visual Device Initializer, use our compiler
library routines, don't ask any silly questions about how things really
work, and you'll have your nuclear power plant safety supervisor system
running by this afternoon.".  Never underestimate the power of large masses
of dumb people.

Of course it's not that easy, but by trying to make it appear so, every
moron thinks they can do a PIC project and are entitled to everyone else
helping them with it.  I am continually amazed at how bad most PIC code is
that I run into out there.  The general mistrust of consultants has also
gone up recently.  This seems to be because there are too many bad apples
out there passing themselves off as consultants, and the customers aren't
sophisticated enough to know how to tell the difference or even that there
is one.

I've got two customers right now that are large multi-billion dollar
companies that obviously got burned in the past.  The first was very
mistrusting and cautious in issuing purchase orders and authorized the work
in little baby steps.  They've largely gotten over that now, but there are
still signs of past abuse.  They were very afraid of a board respin and
didn't understand how I considered it routine until they saw it only took 4
hours of engineering time, a few hours of logistics time, the cost of a few
prototypes, and 2 weeks lead time.

The other customer was forced to use internal people to design the board and
write the proof of concept code.  The concept was proven, but everything was
a mess.  It took a lot of convincing for management to let them go outside,
which is where I got envolved.  In the firmware design review a few weeks
ago, the lead engineer made point of saying in front of everyone that he was
very pleased how each new firmware version just worked and that he hadn't
bumped into any bugs yet.  Of course he was saying this as kindof a "see, I
told you so" to management, not to flatter me, but judging by the reaction
of everyone else there this was definitely not their previous experience.
The previous code was referred to several times as a "pile of crap" during
the design review.

I don't know how these people get hired, but it seems to happen all too
often lately.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2011\03\13@142234 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
On 13/03/2011 16:42, Bob Blick wrote:
> designated
> hitter rule.

What is that?

> I have friends who can argue about that for an hour at a
> time, day after day during baseball

What is that?

:

2011\03\13@153236 by RussellMc

face picon face
I haven't the time to do this the injustice it deserves.
Some good stuff but heavily tainted with philosophy
I'll keep this uncharacteristically brief:

> Then two things damaged the list.  James started getting heavy handed

That's essentially untrue,

> These things will generally blow over without much fuss if you
> just let them.

That's essentially untrue in the sense that Olin really means.
If you accept people being literally and purposefully driven off the
list and abused and bullied and flamed at whatever level a poster sees
fit if they refuse to lick boots and jump through hoops :  rather than
taking the harder and more careful and personally more onerous effort
required to educate and  habilitate them, then it's true as intended,

> He finally stepped down, but way too late.

... yada yada yada ...

> the slippery slope of descent into drivel.  Of course people being people,
> they aren't always good about tagging things properly.

True.
Needs care and control and actual effort..

> It's just as
> important, perhaps even more important, to make sure that the real content
> goes to the right channel and not OT.  There are too many posters here that
> routinely tag legitimate topics with OT,

Routinely, maybe not. But too often, yes.

> but nobody ever tells them to retag
> to EE or PIC or whatever.

That, also, is not true.


           Russell

2011\03\14@121915 by James Newton

face picon face
I am so grateful for all of the following reasons:

1. I no longer have to try to pretend to be fair and balanced with shitheads
like Olin. I'm free to express how completely I hate him. "... If someone is
too dumb to read the docs and tag a post or too lazy to care, then we're
better off without them.." LOL... We may be better off without them, but
getting them to shut up is the trick...

2. I'm grateful that don't have to read drivel like this anymore. I only
happened to randomly read this because the archive had stopped updating and
I was checking to make sure it had restarted. Other than that, I can
blissfully ignore the PICList mailing list and all the crap assholes post on
it.

3. I'm grateful that I have been gloriously disabused of the naïve idea that
engineers or other technically brilliant people are better humans. It has
become completely clear to me that IQ and humanity are uncorrelated. There
are truly stupid people who are better matched to the ideal defined by the
word "humanity" than the most competent PIC programmers.
Thank you for that.

I am rather sad to see otherwise good people like Russell pounding away
trying to make it "better"; repeating the same, simple, basic and obviously
correct procedures over and over and having jerks, who have no concept of
connection to their fellow humans, object to and ignore them.
I remember years ago being stunned when a man who I looked up to as one of
the most brilliant PIC programmers in the world was unable to accept and use
topic tag filtering. He posted exactly the same objection as was just posted
here: That he wouldn't unsubscribe from the OT channels because people
sometimes posted (what he considered) PIC or EE topics with the OT tag. In
the same breath he was saying that the list should be ONLY PIC.

It never fails to amaze me that people can be so brilliant in one area and
so stupid in another.

And now back to my better place.

--
James Newton
1-970-462-7764

2011\03\14@212635 by Mike snyder

picon face
On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 7:46 PM, Vitaliy <.....piclistKILLspamspam.....maksimov.org> wrote:
> Bob Blick wrote:
>>> I think plenty of people would rather see Bob Blick spending more of his
>>> time volunteering at a homeless shelter, or a school, or a church, than
>>> getting people to conform to his image of the PICList from 15 years ago..
>>
>> If you are interested in seeing my volunteer work, come on over and you
>> can help too.
>
> So you can have more time for "admin" work? No thanks. :)
>
> FWIW, I think it's poor taste to constantly boast about your "volunteer
> work". People may get the wrong idea about your motivation for working in
> the soup kitchen. And I think it's obvious that your admin responsibilities
> do not include telling Gerhard or anyone else how to live their lives.
>
> Vitaliy

Wow I am really stunned by your holier than thou attitude are you for
real? What you said to Bob was in extremely poor taste and then you
turn around and talk about poor taste! You are one classy dude

2011\03\14@232507 by RussellMc

face picon face
Things are getting out of hand on this thread.
As was entirely certain to happen sooner or later.
If people don't back off just a wee bit it will have to be stopped.
If you think you have something useful to add please do so at a level
which is likely to still get in under the radar.

I thik I'm just possibly going to have to arbitrarily "sentence" my
good friend James to a period of moderation for his unseemly name
calling and inappropriate language. Having to sustain ad hominem
attacks from the terminally ungrateful is explanation enough for this
behaviour, but no excuse [tm]. One minute should do, I think. I'll
choose a time when he's asleep, if i remember to do so at all.

Similar behaviours by others may need to be met by an exponentially
rising response :-)

Keep it half polite, please.


                Russel

2011\03\14@234707 by Lyle Hazelwood

picon face
On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 9:26 PM, Mike snyder <EraseMEmsnyder19spam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:
<snip main body of comments>
> turn around and talk about poor taste! You are one classy dude.


Hi Mike!
This is a diverse community in many ways.
I came to learn about PICs, and I ended up learning even MORE about
personality types.
In both areas, I have seen things that I benefit from emulating, and
even more things that
I benefit from making sure I _NEVER_ repeat in the real world.

As long as you don't try to take responsibility for other peoples
behavior, you'll do fine.

If only the admins had it so good.
:)

Lyl

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