Post by thread:[OT] Crimp headers and flat ribbon cable. Trick Qu

an [OT] subject, but eventually will be on topic. (dt106.html 87x programmer and emulator) You get a strip of 40 wire .05" flat ribbon cable and you crimp a 40 pin (2 by 20) IDC female header to one end, and a 40 pin male .6" header, the type that fits into a 40 pin socket, the other end. (I hope I explained that in a reasonable fashion) The question: Will pin 1 of each 40 pin crimped connector match up with each other, or will they do a pin 1 to 2 reversal? My sources say they do a reversal, my own research tells me the ones I have access to, do a reversal as well. Are there types that match up, or should I make it a reversal? Sorry if this ends up as a "me too" quiz show, but I really would like to know. :-) Don McKenzie spam_OUTdonTakeThisOuTdontronics.com http://www.dontronics.com Don's Download Dungeon: http://www.dontronics.com/download.html Australian Electronics Ring http://www.dontronics.com/aering.html Win $500USD Cash. Micro design contest: http://www.simmstick.com

Hello all, IMHO it is not going to work, because on a 40 pin IC socket the pins 1 and 40 will be adjacent on the ribbon cable, and in the header 1 and 2 will be adjacent. You would have to separate the cable into two parts of 20 pins, turn them accordingly and place them in the 40 pin male adaptor to the IC socket pins, but you will still have the double distance between the connectors' pins. Greetings, Jochen Feldhaar DH6FAZ .....jfKILLspam@spam@detektor.de

Shoot me if I'm wrong, but couldn't a DMM tell you this? Also, if you don't already know, even numbered pins are on top, and odd numbers are on the bottom. Or maybe I didn't understand the question? Hope MAYBE I've helped, Tim Hamel In a message dated 7/8/99 1:55:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, donKILLspamDONTRONICS.COM writes: {Quote hidden}> an [OT] subject, but eventually will be on topic. (dt106.html 87x > programmer and emulator) > > You get a strip of 40 wire .05" flat ribbon cable and you crimp a 40 pin > (2 by 20) IDC female header to one end, and a 40 pin male .6" header, > the type that fits into a 40 pin socket, the other end. > > (I hope I explained that in a reasonable fashion) > > The question: > Will pin 1 of each 40 pin crimped connector match up with each other, or > will they do a pin 1 to 2 reversal? > > My sources say they do a reversal, my own research tells me the ones I > have access to, do a reversal as well. > > Are there types that match up, or should I make it a reversal? > > Sorry if this ends up as a "me too" quiz show, but I really would like > to know. :-) >

Jochen Feldhaar wrote: > > Hello all, > > IMHO it is not going to work, because on a 40 pin IC socket the pins 1 and > 40 will be adjacent on the ribbon cable, and in the header 1 and 2 will be > adjacent. You would have to separate the cable into two parts of 20 pins, > turn them accordingly and place them in the 40 pin male adaptor to the IC > socket pins, but you will still have the double distance between the > connectors' pins. Hmmm.... Perhaps I didn't explain it well then. On a 40 pin male header at .1" centers, pin 1 is next to pin 3 along the same strip. Pin 2 is in the opposite strip of 20 pins. Pin 2 would normally line up with pin 40 of the .6" header. The pin numbering is different for each connector type, but what I am asking is "does Pin 1 line up with pin 1", "does pin 2 line up with pin 40"? or is there a reversal? Don McKenzie .....donKILLspam.....dontronics.com http://www.dontronics.com Don's Download Dungeon: http://www.dontronics.com/download.html Australian Electronics Ring http://www.dontronics.com/aering.html Win $500USD Cash. Micro design contest: http://www.simmstick.com

Tim Hamel wrote: > > Shoot me if I'm wrong, but couldn't a DMM tell you this? Also, if you don't > already know, even numbered pins are on top, and odd numbers are on the > bottom. Or maybe I didn't understand the question? > > Hope MAYBE I've helped, > > Tim Hamel OK, I'll explain it another way. I get a 40 pin male .6" crimp header cable, the type that plugs into a 40 pin socket. I crimp a 40 wire flat ribbon cable on it. I crimp a 40 pin female IDC connector the other end. Looking at the top of this connector, where will pin 1 of the 40 pin socket line up? IDC connector 40 pin .6" header to DIP socket ====== =========== | 1 2 | | 1 40| | 3 4 | | 2 39| etc. With the connectors available to me, I have found that pin 1 of the connector on the left mates with pin 40 on the right, so it looks like I have to reverse the connections on my artwork on the IDC connector. Am I getting closer to the explanation and the problem guys? Don McKenzie EraseMEdonspam_OUTTakeThisOuTdontronics.com http://www.dontronics.com Don's Download Dungeon: http://www.dontronics.com/download.html Australian Electronics Ring http://www.dontronics.com/aering.html Win $500USD Cash. Micro design contest: http://www.simmstick.com

Ok Don, I finally got it! You're right in assuming pins 1 & 2 will be reversed. There's a company that solves this: http://www.arieselec.com/products/products.htm Tim H. In a message dated 7/8/99 3:00:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, donspam_OUTDONTRONICS.COM writes: {Quote hidden}> OK, I'll explain it another way. > > I get a 40 pin male .6" crimp header cable, the type that plugs into a > 40 pin socket. > I crimp a 40 wire flat ribbon cable on it. > I crimp a 40 pin female IDC connector the other end. > > Looking at the top of this connector, where will pin 1 of the 40 pin > socket line up? > > IDC connector 40 pin .6" header to DIP socket > ====== =========== > | 1 2 | | 1 40| > | 3 4 | | 2 39| > > etc. > > With the connectors available to me, I have found that pin 1 of the > connector on the left mates with pin 40 on the right, so it looks like I > have to reverse the connections on my artwork on the IDC connector. > > Am I getting closer to the explanation and the problem guys?

{Quote hidden}> I get a 40 pin male .6" crimp header cable, the type that plugs into > a 40 pin socket. I crimp a 40 wire flat ribbon cable on it. I crimp > a 40 pin female IDC connector the other end. > > Looking at the top of this connector, where will pin 1 of the 40 pin > socket line up? > > IDC connector 40 pin .6" header to DIP socket > ====== =========== > | 1 2 | | 1 40| > | 3 4 | | 2 39| > > etc. > > With the connectors available to me, I have found that pin 1 of the > connector on the left mates with pin 40 on the right, so it looks > like I have to reverse the connections on my artwork on the IDC > connector. > > Am I getting closer to the explanation and the problem guys? > Crimp the connectors on opposite sides of the ribbon and #1... lines up with #1... at least in the northern hemisphere... Regards/Roger, in Bangkok Roger N. Shane Tel/Fax: +66 (2) 291-3826 E-mail: @spam@rogerKILLspamwnet.net.th Postal: P.O. Box 11-303 Phrakhanong, Bangkok 10110 Thailand

At 18:56 8/07/99 +1000, you wrote: They reverse! I never would have though it but that is the way it is. I found this out the hard way. I have an eprom emulator here with the ribbon cable split into pairs and twisted 180 degrees to match the pins back up as I designed it _BEFORE_ actually having the IDC header to look at. Don't get burnt like I did. Jim {Quote hidden}> >The question: >Will pin 1 of each 40 pin crimped connector match up with each other, or >will they do a pin 1 to 2 reversal? > >My sources say they do a reversal, my own research tells me the ones I >have access to, do a reversal as well. > >Are there types that match up, or should I make it a reversal? > >Sorry if this ends up as a "me too" quiz show, but I really would like >to know. :-) > >Don McKenzie KILLspamdonKILLspamdontronics.com http://www.dontronics.com > >Don's Download Dungeon: http://www.dontronics.com/download.html >Australian Electronics Ring http://www.dontronics.com/aering.html >Win $500USD Cash. Micro design contest: http://www.simmstick.com > ________________________________________ Email: RemoveMEnewfoundTakeThisOuTpipeline.com.au http://www.new-elect.com MPLAB compatible PIC programmers and firmware upgrades for many programmers. ________________________________________

On Thu, Jul 08, 1999 at 08:01:37PM +1000, Don McKenzie wrote: > > I get a 40 pin male .6" crimp header cable, the type that plugs into a > 40 pin socket. Don, Here's a diagram, pictured from from the top, so that you are looking down at the split IDC skewers that grab the ribbon cable connectors; I've offset them in the way that they'll line up with the cable: DIP Plug: 40 1 39 2 38 ... 21 20 IDC Female Connector: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 39 40 Obviously, if you are looking up at the holes in the IDC connector, or the pins in the DIP plug, it is reversed from these. Thus, via the ribbon cable, you'll get: IDC DIP 1 --- 40 2 --- 1 3 --- 39 4 --- 2 ... 39 --- 21 40 --- 20 Alternatively, if you turn the DIP plug 180 degrees, you could have 1 --- 20 2 --- 21 3 --- 19 4 --- 22 ... 39 --- 1 40 --- 40 Caveat: I used a 14-pin DIP plug and a 10-pin IDC connector as a reference, but I'm fairly sure that the extrapolation is correct. Does this help? --Bob -- ============================================================ Bob Drzyzgula It's not a problem spamBeGonebobspamBeGonedrzyzgula.org until something bad happens ============================================================

At 03:56 AM 7/8/99 , you wrote: > >The question: >Will pin 1 of each 40 pin crimped connector match up with each other, or >will they do a pin 1 to 2 reversal? > hmmmm....building a loader/debugger ??? Your observations are correct - you should wire them 'reversed'. This is by far the most standard part configurations. We have many thousands of products in the field that use similar cables. We wire ALL of them in the 'reversed' fashion. In the early days, we found a couple of sources that would provide the DIP connector in either configuration. However, these were not reliable sources and we could not get ALL sizes in the 'straight through' configuration. Jerry Merrill RemoveMEjerrymTakeThisOuTtech-tools.com http://www.tech-tools.com FAX: (972) 494-5814 VOICE:(972) 272-9392 TechTools PO Box 462101 Garland, TX 75046-2101

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who learned this the hard way. Why is it that the plugs always seem to be harder to get right than any of the other parts? At 18:56 8/07/99 +1000, you wrote: They reverse! I never would have though it but that is the way it is. I found this out the hard way. I have an eprom emulator here with the ribbon cable split into pairs and twisted 180 degrees to match the pins back up as I designed it _BEFORE_ actually having the IDC header to look at. Don't get burnt like I did. Jim

Jim Robertson wrote: > They reverse! I never would have though it but that is the way it is. > I found this out the hard way. I have an eprom emulator here > with the ribbon cable split into pairs and twisted 180 degrees to > match the pins back up as I designed it _BEFORE_ actually having the > IDC header to look at. > Don't get burnt like I did. OK, thanks everyone for your feedback, it endorsed what I had found, takes a little explaining doesn't it? It really means I must reverse pins 1 and 2 relative positions on my IDC .1" header artwork, if I wish to connect a PCB via a flat ribbon cable to a crimp .6" socket header. You better stick that in your "Things my Mother never taught me" Engineering Notebook. Don McKenzie donEraseME.....dontronics.com http://www.dontronics.com Don's Download Dungeon: http://www.dontronics.com/download.html Australian Electronics Ring http://www.dontronics.com/aering.html Win $500USD Cash. Micro design contest: http://www.simmstick.com

Tim Hamel wrote: > > Ok Don, > > I finally got it! You're right in assuming pins 1 & 2 will be reversed. > There's a company that solves this: > > http://www.arieselec.com/products/products.htm > > Tim H. I clicked on the page Tim, but didn't chase through it all, I assume they do a set of headers to overcome the problem? Don McKenzie EraseMEdondontronics.com http://www.dontronics.com Don's Download Dungeon: http://www.dontronics.com/download.html Australian Electronics Ring http://www.dontronics.com/aering.html Win $500USD Cash. Micro design contest: http://www.simmstick.com

Don, I caught the `tail-end' of this but I would recommend doing a 1-1 crimp from the IDC to the DIP header. Adjust the pcb artwork on the IDC side so that the DIP is correct. When you start `flipping' wires around (ie: floppy disk cables), you will be sure to raise the cost and probably bring up reliablity problems. - Tom At 07:13 AM 7/9/99 +1000, Don McKenzie wrote: {Quote hidden}>Tim Hamel wrote: >> >> Ok Don, >> >> I finally got it! You're right in assuming pins 1 & 2 will be reversed. >> There's a company that solves this: >> >> http://www.arieselec.com/products/products.htm >> >> Tim H. > >I clicked on the page Tim, but didn't chase through it all, I assume >they do a set of headers to overcome the problem? > >Don McKenzie RemoveMEdonspam_OUTKILLspamdontronics.com http://www.dontronics.com > >Don's Download Dungeon: http://www.dontronics.com/download.html >Australian Electronics Ring http://www.dontronics.com/aering.html >Win $500USD Cash. Micro design contest: http://www.simmstick.com

Tom Handley wrote: > > Don, I caught the `tail-end' of this but I would recommend doing a > 1-1 crimp from the IDC to the DIP header. Adjust the pcb artwork on the > IDC side so that the DIP is correct. When you start `flipping' wires > around (ie: floppy disk cables), you will be sure to raise the cost and > probably bring up reliablity problems. Thanks Tom, yes I wouldn't do anything but this. If you missed the original post, it is the board at: http://www.dontronics.com/dt106.html The 40 pin edge connector will be multi purpose. 1) extend the pins out that don't appear on the Simm Bus. 2) give an alternative method of connection to the SimmStick. 3) act as a pod header for ***any*** 87x target board for load/go operation. Design by committee is never easy, but that's what I do when I invite everyone to be involved in the design of a board. After collating all the info that has been sent to us, a small group of us sat down last night to drink as much of Don's beer as we possibly could, and come up with a final board design. The beer vanished to the last bottle, and I know we now have more questions than answers, however I think we resolved the 40 pin thing. Using an 877 footprint, we are going to make the 40 pin header and the micro pinout to the same pattern. You must ignore the pin numbering, as this doesn't line up, but it means the 877 footprint appears as a .1" male header on the top edge of the board. Now, if you crimped a 1 for 1 ribbon cable with a 40 pin .6" header, then you have a reversal problem, however if you solder the .1" connector on the solder side of the board, the problem is solved. As the board is also multi purpose, it's only when you want to use it as a pod or emulator mode, that the connector needs to be mounted on the solder side of the PCB. As the PCB price is less than the price of the micro, we believe this is the correct answer. Don McKenzie RemoveMEdonTakeThisOuTspamdontronics.com http://www.dontronics.com Don's Download Dungeon: http://www.dontronics.com/download.html Australian Electronics Ring http://www.dontronics.com/aering.html Win $500USD Cash. Micro design contest: http://www.simmstick.com

Sorry for the late reply, just caught the thread. This may be the best way for your application, since putting the header on the other side will make you know for sure what you're using it for, at least if it's not 4 AM when you're doing it. But from hard experience, two things: First, in an emergency two cables connected with header pins will reverse the sides, and are cheaper than redoing a board for low volumes if something's swapped and the connector HAS to be on the correct side of the board. Second, if you have the room, a third line of holes routed to the first line with line two in the middle makes things easy. Put the pins into lines 1 and 2 for one way, 2 and 3 for the swapped pinout. A variation of this, you can even put a full second connector worth of holes, shifted .05" over and .05" down, but to do this you need tight holes, thin pads, and the thin round header pins instead of the square pins helps too. Link the inner pins pads and route the outers around. Gets hairy and twice as many holes vs 1.5 times for the other way, but cuts the board space by whopping .05" x length of connector. Good for prototypes and things you need to be able to reverse the pinouts for, like different manufacturer's LCD displays. Don McKenzie wrote: > As the board is also multi purpose, it's only when you want to use it as > a pod or emulator mode, that the connector needs to be mounted on the > solder side of the PCB.

I hope it is clear that changing the 'side' of the board or the 'side' of the cable does NOT fix the inversion of odd and even numbered pins that results from the unfortunate layout of DIP to IDC headers. Do the thought experiment of 'sliding,' an IDC connector down to and around the end of the cable, doesn't change pin-to-wire mapping. > > Don McKenzie wrote: > > As the board is also multi purpose, it's only when you want to use it as > > a pod or emulator mode, that the connector needs to be mounted on the > > !!!!solder side!!!! of the PCB.

The swapping problem occurs 'cuz the IDC header has pin 1 at the END of the connector, the one thing swapping PC Board sides'll do for you is that it'll trade rows on the PCB, though. If your cable's numbered 1..8 sequentially, and the IDC header is numbered to match, then if you put the IDC header in directly, you have a 1:1 mapping. If you put the IDC header in on the underside of the PCB, though, you get: PCB Cable 1 2 2 1 3 4 4 3 5 6 6 5 7 8 8 7 It's harder understood than said, though <G> Mark Richard Martin wrote: {Quote hidden}> > I hope it is clear that changing the 'side' of the board > or the 'side' of the cable does NOT fix the inversion of > odd and even numbered pins that results from the unfortunate > layout of DIP to IDC headers. Do the thought experiment of > 'sliding,' an IDC connector down to and around the end of the > cable, doesn't change pin-to-wire mapping. > > > > > Don McKenzie wrote: > > > As the board is also multi purpose, it's only when you want to use it as > > > a pod or emulator mode, that the connector needs to be mounted on the > > > !!!!solder side!!!! of the PCB.

Richard Martin wrote: > > I hope it is clear that changing the 'side' of the board > or the 'side' of the cable does NOT fix the inversion of > odd and even numbered pins that results from the unfortunate > layout of DIP to IDC headers. Do the thought experiment of > 'sliding,' an IDC connector down to and around the end of the > cable, doesn't change pin-to-wire mapping. > > > > > Don McKenzie wrote: > > > As the board is also multi purpose, it's only when you want to use it as > > > a pod or emulator mode, that the connector needs to be mounted on the > > > !!!!solder side!!!! of the PCB. Assumming this, did you do the thought experiment of which pin the cable header pin 1 plugs into the top of the board, and which pin number it plugs into on the bottom? Sorry, missed by that much! (.01") :-) Don McKenzie EraseMEdonspamspamBeGonedontronics.com http://www.dontronics.com Don's Download Dungeon: http://www.dontronics.com/download.html Australian Electronics Ring http://www.dontronics.com/aering.html Win $500USD Cash. Micro design contest: http://www.simmstick.com

That's because they're converting from the linear to the side-by-side, and the linear doesn't change by swapping from one side of the cable. But a dual row header is already in side-by-side format, and putting it on the other side of the board definitely does change things: 1 a 2 2 b 1 Signal a ends up on pin 1 or 2 depending on which side of the board the header is on. It works quite well, and . It doesn't 'FIX' the dip to header mismatch, it reverses the signals to correct for the second reversal. Alan Richard Martin wrote: {Quote hidden}> > I hope it is clear that changing the 'side' of the board > or the 'side' of the cable does NOT fix the inversion of > odd and even numbered pins that results from the unfortunate > layout of DIP to IDC headers. Do the thought experiment of > 'sliding,' an IDC connector down to and around the end of the > cable, doesn't change pin-to-wire mapping. > > > > > Don McKenzie wrote: > > > As the board is also multi purpose, it's only when you want to use it as > > > a pod or emulator mode, that the connector needs to be mounted on the > > > !!!!solder side!!!! of the PCB.