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'[OT] Cap ESR'
2000\03\20@093729 by Dan Michaels

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Does someone know if you measure the ESR of an electrolytic cap
simply by taking the minimum impedance vs frequency, and comparing
against Xc = 1/(2*pi*F*C), or does it require a more complicated
measurement procedure?

Also, from a practical viewpoint, what is considered to be a
bad ESR value? Maybe, > 1 ohm?

Any definitive documents?

- Dan Michaels
Oricom Technologies
http://www.sni.net/~oricom
==========================

2000\03\20@100925 by Chris Eddy

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Dan;

There are ads for an ESR meter in hobby magazines.  They go stealth by
the reference of capacitor testers.

If you intend to measure yourself, there is one way I have used.  The
method assumes you are using a buck switching regulator, where most of
the current from the inductor is going to the capacitor.  The current
through the inductor is sawing up and down.  It may be difficult, but
you must measure the current through the inductor on the scope.  You
want peak to peak current.  I find those hall effect transducers work
nice.  Then you look at the peak to peak voltage across the capacitor.
Using ohms law,..  But then, I suspect that the voltage on the capacitor
is moving up and down with the sawing current.  So this ohms value would
be on the conservative side.

Then you know ohms at your test frequency, which is always different
than the datasheet at their test frequency.  BUT don't forget in a
switcher to look at the max RMS current through the capacitor, and see
if you are exceeding it.  This is the parameter that toasts capacitors
in switchers.  Of course, do this test at max Iload.

Hope that helps.
Chris Eddy

Dan Michaels wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2000\03\20@105622 by Dan Michaels

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At 06:07 AM 3/20/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Dan;
>
>There are ads for an ESR meter in hobby magazines.  They go stealth by
>the reference of capacitor testers.
>
>If you intend to measure yourself, there is one way I have used.  The
>method assumes you are using a buck switching regulator, where most of
>the current from the inductor is going to the capacitor.  The current
>through the inductor is sawing up and down.  It may be difficult, but
>you must measure the current through the inductor on the scope.  You
>want peak to peak current.  I find those hall effect transducers work
>nice.  Then you look at the peak to peak voltage across the capacitor.
[snip]

>
>Hope that helps.
>Chris Eddy
>

Thanks, Chris, sounds complicated. Guess I need to buy/make a bunch
of new equipment to use this method. I was hoping I could just use
a sinewave generator and a scope.

I have seen the ads for ESR meters in the mags. Do you or anyone
else know if they use your method, or something else?

- Dan Michaels
Oricom Technologies
http://www.sni.net/~oricom
==========================

2000\03\20@110906 by Chris Eddy

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Dan Michaels wrote:

>
> I have seen the ads for ESR meters in the mags. Do you or anyone
> else know if they use your method, or something else?
>

Nope.  Your guess is as good as mine.

Chris

2000\03\20@111518 by Robert Wuest

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Dan Michaels wrote:
>
> Does someone know if you measure the ESR of an electrolytic cap
> simply by taking the minimum impedance vs frequency, and comparing
> against Xc = 1/(2*pi*F*C), or does it require a more complicated
> measurement procedure?
>
> Also, from a practical viewpoint, what is considered to be a
> bad ESR value? Maybe, > 1 ohm?
>
> Any definitive documents?
>
> - Dan Michaels
> Oricom Technologies
> http://www.sni.net/~oricom
> ==========================

As a former equipment engineer for Kemet, I dealt with this a lot for
leaded Tantalum caps (including designing final production testers with
ESR testing).  This is typically spec'd at 100KHz.  1 ohm would be a
pretty bad tantalum cap (and end up in the reject bin, hopefully).

Both HP and Quadtech have good docs on how to make these measurements.
I have copies around here somewhere.....

Most instruments measure the voltage and current applied to the DUT and
calculate the ESR from magnitude and phase info based on a circuit:

 ----/\/\/\---||----
      ESR      C

Newer surface mount caps are being spec'd into the <10 milliohm range,
(which is a real pain to measure on a production machine).  Watch out
for lead resistance!

Robert Wuest, PE

2000\03\20@125033 by Dan Michaels

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Robert Wuest wrote:
>As a former equipment engineer for Kemet, I dealt with this a lot for
>leaded Tantalum caps (including designing final production testers with
>ESR testing).  This is typically spec'd at 100KHz.  1 ohm would be a
>pretty bad tantalum cap (and end up in the reject bin, hopefully).
>
>Both HP and Quadtech have good docs on how to make these measurements.
>I have copies around here somewhere.....
>
>Most instruments measure the voltage and current applied to the DUT and
>calculate the ESR from magnitude and phase info based on a circuit:
>
>  ----/\/\/\---||----
>       ESR      C
>

Robert, thanks for chiming in. Good info re tantalums.

I especially want to do "in-circuit" measurements on power supply
filter caps, which will usually be 10-100+ uF aluminum. A slightly
different problem from quality testing, and probably not needing
milliohm accuracy.

Your 1st-order circuit diagram is essentially the same as I had
envisioned using for test purposes. This leads me to believe that
I could feed a sinewave generator, at say 20 Khz, thru a 100-200 ohm
resistor onto a P/S buss, and get a "reasonable" measurement of the
equivalent ESR on the bus.

A 10 uF cap at 20 Khz has Xc = .8 ohms. It seems I could get a
fairly decent equiv-buss ESR value using a simple voltage-divider
calculation. Do you see any major problems with this idea?
[too crude?].

Also, I'll look though those websites for docs. [HP only has
10-20,000 documents on its site!].

Thanks and regards,
- Dan Michaels
Oricom Technologies
http://www.sni.net/~oricom
==========================

2000\03\20@135302 by rottosen

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Dan Michaels wrote:

> Does someone know if you measure the ESR of an electrolytic cap
> simply by taking the minimum impedance vs frequency, and comparing
> against Xc = 1/(2*pi*F*C), or does it require a more complicated
> measurement procedure?
>
> Also, from a practical viewpoint, what is considered to be a
> bad ESR value? Maybe, > 1 ohm?
>
> Any definitive documents?
>
> - Dan Michaels
> Oricom Technologies
> http://www.sni.net/~oricom
> ==========================

Try starting your search for the advertised ESR meters here:

http://www.heinc.com/ieinc/cwinfo.htm

-- Rich

2000\03\21@002643 by Dan Michaels
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Thanks, guys, for the various ESR references. The Quadtech site had some
interesting background, but I found the following most useful:

http://www.heinc.com/ieinc/cwinfo.htm - description of ESR meter, basically
an AC ohmmeter operating at 100 Khz.

http://www.heinc.com/ieinc/cwfirsttime.html - good, practical info on
good/bad caps.

http://leonardo.eeug.caltech.edu/~ee14/lab1cds.html - good overview of
capacitor types, construction.

http://www.faradnet.com - FaradNet The Capacitor Resource, includes an
online book on electrolytics: http://www.faradnet.com/deeley/book_toc.htm

regards,
- Dan Michaels
Oricom Technologies
http://www.sni.net/~oricom
==========================

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