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'[OT] Best garage heating option'
2017\11\27@033816 by V G

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face
Hi all, I'd like to install some heating mechanism in my decently-insulated
garage for working on my motorcycle and some other projects over the winter..

Initially, I considered getting a portable propane heater but I don't want
to mess around with propane tanks, exchanging them, the danger of setting
something on fire, and the fact that they vent directly into the room.
However, this would be the cheapest option and definitely workable if I
lift the garage door up a bit to let some fresh air in and mount a CO
detector nearby.

The options I'm now considering are:

- Natural gas heater - This will require running a natural gas line into
the garage which a professional will likely need to take care of, then
installing an expensive natural gas heater as well as setting up the vent.
- Electric heater - To be practical, this will require running a two-phase
240V power line into the garage and hooking up some powerful 240V electric
heaters. I'm not worried about electricity costs, since this will only be
used when I'm working on my projects, which is only during off-peak hours,
and not too many hours per week. These would also be the safest and easiest
to manage.

I'm leaning towards electric since it would likely be easier to install and
overall cheaper considering the infrequent use case.

I would appreciate any thoughts and advice on this. Thank you!

-- V
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2017\11\27@042430 by alan.b.pearce

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If you are dealing with vehicles then I would be reluctant to see a heater with a naked flame (either of the gas options) or exposed heating element (electric radiator) around exposed potentially volatile fluids.

I would suggest an electric oil radiator or two arranged around the working space. With several of these you probably don't need a two pahse 240V socket, but rather several 110V ones.



> {Original Message removed}

2017\11\27@051148 by RussellMc

face picon face

​
On 27 November 2017 at 21:37, V G <spam_OUTveegeeTakeThisOuTspamveegee.org> wrote:

> Hi all, I'd like to install some heating mechanism in my decently-insulated
> garage for working on my motorcycle and some other projects over the
> winter.
>
> ​I find that modern "thermal undergarments" + sensible overlayers do
reasonably well in above zero (Celsius) conditions. ​

Electrically heated undergarment.
Energy capacity of Sensible mass LiIon / LiFePO4 should make this practical.
eg 3300 mAh x 7.2V mean =~ 25 Watt-hour.
Not vast but may be useful with half decent body insulation.

On-body non-electrical heater. Chemical catalytic / phase change /
Zeolite+water / ... .
Rechargeable
Lonnnng ago I used a white spirits catalytic heater worn inside my shirt
for motorcycling.
Energy production was too low in original form.
I wedged casing partially open to increase energy out.
Presumably that was a stupidly dangerous thing to do :-).
Worked well.

IR heaters targeted at radiant heating at wavelengths optimal (they say)
for body heating. Lower energy costs. Reasonable reach.

Propane heater can be outside core space with hot air "ducted".
Air can be heat exchanged if desired (counterflow for high efficiency).
Duct can be low cost and insulation not overly critical as any heat lost
still warms space.
Blown air from near where you are working (probably) reduces energy needs.

Russell


​
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2017\11\27@085327 by picram

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Consider electric radiant heaters. Warms you, rather than the whole garage.
I used them in my drafty old barn with some success.

- - Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

{Original Message removed}

2017\11\27@094330 by David C Brown

picon face
Problem with heated garments is that to do any kind of near precision work
you need to have your hands unencumbered with gloves.

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak                           Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire                eMail: .....dcb.homeKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com
SK23 7ND          web: http://www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*

On 27 November 2017 at 13:53, <picramspamKILLspamroadrunner.com> wrote:

> Consider electric radiant heaters. Warms you, rather than the whole garage.
> I used them in my drafty old barn with some success.
>
> - - Bob Ammerman
> RAm Systems
>
> {Original Message removed}

2017\11\27@114703 by Bob Blick

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face
In my garage I use a Big Buddy propane heater and it's wonderful. It's propane but not like those tank-top heaters. It's very clean burning, you do not smell it. It uses two small tanks that I refill from a barbeque-size tank.. I have used it inside the house during emergencies. The only time it's a problem is if you have been using spray paint and the vapors from the spray paint make bad smells. Take a look:

http://www.mrheater.com/big-buddy-portable-heater-massachusetts-and-canada-version.html

I know you didn't want propane but this is so easy and winter is coming :)

Bob

________________________________________
From: .....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam.....mit.edu <EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmit.edu> on behalf of V G <veegeespamspam_OUTveegee.org>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 12:37 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: [OT] Best garage heating option

Hi all, I'd like to install some heating mechanism in my decently-insulated
garage for working on my motorcycle and some other projects over the winter..

Initially, I considered getting a portable propane heater but I don't want
to mess around with propane tanks, exchanging them, the danger of setting
something on fire, and the fact that they vent directly into the room.
However, this would be the cheapest option and definitely workable if I
lift the garage door up a bit to let some fresh air in and mount a CO
detector nearby.

The options I'm now considering are:

- Natural gas heater - This will require running a natural gas line into
the garage which a professional will likely need to take care of, then
installing an expensive natural gas heater as well as setting up the vent.
- Electric heater - To be practical, this will require running a two-phase
240V power line into the garage and hooking up some powerful 240V electric
heaters. I'm not worried about electricity costs, since this will only be
used when I'm working on my projects, which is only during off-peak hours,
and not too many hours per week. These would also be the safest and easiest
to manage.

I'm leaning towards electric since it would likely be easier to install and
overall cheaper considering the infrequent use case.

I would appreciate any thoughts and advice on this. Thank you!

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2017\11\27@122106 by Van Horn, David

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CO is not something you can smell, you just have a few symptoms then drop.

-----Original Message-----
From: @spam@piclist-bouncesKILLspamspammit.edu [KILLspampiclist-bouncesKILLspamspammit.edu] On Behalf Of Bob Blick
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 9:47 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [OT] Best garage heating option

In my garage I use a Big Buddy propane heater and it's wonderful. It's propane but not like those tank-top heaters. It's very clean burning, you do not smell it. It uses two small tanks that I refill from a barbeque-size tank.. I have used it inside the house during emergencies. The only time it's a problem is if you have been using spray paint and the vapors from the spray paint make bad smells. Take a look:

http://www.mrheater.com/big-buddy-portable-heater-massachusetts-and-canada-version.html

I know you didn't want propane but this is so easy and winter is coming :)

Bob

________________________________________
From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu <spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesspamBeGonespammit.edu> on behalf of V G <TakeThisOuTveegeeEraseMEspamspam_OUTveegee.org>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 12:37 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: [OT] Best garage heating option

Hi all, I'd like to install some heating mechanism in my decently-insulated garage for working on my motorcycle and some other projects over the winter.

Initially, I considered getting a portable propane heater but I don't want to mess around with propane tanks, exchanging them, the danger of setting something on fire, and the fact that they vent directly into the room.
However, this would be the cheapest option and definitely workable if I lift the garage door up a bit to let some fresh air in and mount a CO detector nearby.

The options I'm now considering are:

- Natural gas heater - This will require running a natural gas line into the garage which a professional will likely need to take care of, then installing an expensive natural gas heater as well as setting up the vent.
- Electric heater - To be practical, this will require running a two-phase 240V power line into the garage and hooking up some powerful 240V electric heaters. I'm not worried about electricity costs, since this will only be used when I'm working on my projects, which is only during off-peak hours, and not too many hours per week. These would also be the safest and easiest to manage.

I'm leaning towards electric since it would likely be easier to install and overall cheaper considering the infrequent use case.

I would appreciate any thoughts and advice on this. Thank you!

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2017\11\27@122919 by Clint Jay

picon face
To be fair to Bob, I know what he means, propane heaters can have a very
unpleasant smell if they don't burn completely (they don't always produce
CO, at least none indicated by the gas analysers we serviced but there was
a  higher than usual background of HC) and built  but you are also correct,
CO is deadly and you may not realise you have a problem until it's too
late, severe brain damage or death can occur from CO poisoning

On 27 Nov 2017 17:21, "Van Horn, David" <RemoveMEdavid.vanhornspamTakeThisOuTbackcountryaccess.com>
wrote:

> CO is not something you can smell, you just have a few symptoms then drop..
>
> {Original Message removed}

2017\11\27@152030 by Bob Blick

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I have a smoke detector and a CO detector and neither one has gone off because of the heater. The Big Buddy is pretty well designed and is intended for use in outbuildings, ice fishing shacks, etc. I know that CO has no odor, but I'm bothered more by my oven than this heater, so I'm not worried, especially in a garage.

Bob
________________________________________
From: piclist-bouncesEraseMEspam.....mit.edu <EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspammit.edu> on behalf of Van Horn, David <RemoveMEdavid.vanhornEraseMEspamEraseMEbackcountryaccess.com>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 9:20 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: RE: [OT] Best garage heating option

CO is not something you can smell, you just have a few symptoms then drop.

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2017\11\27@153236 by John Gardner

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www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200664882_200664882

A year ago I installed one of these in the parlor,  which in combination

with the pre-existing ceiling fan does a nice job of keeping the house

comfortable,  most of the time - It's cut our heating costs in half.

I have separate CO monitor/alarms in place. No huhu,  so far.



On 11/27/17, Bob Blick <RemoveMEbobblickspam_OUTspamKILLspamoutlook.com> wrote:
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2017\11\27@154734 by Brooke Clarke

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Hi Bob:

I was interested the MH18B Item #:F274865 until I saw:

State Restriction: CA

But they do make the MH18B Item #:F274800 California version:
http://www.mrheater.com/big-buddy-portable-heater.html

State Restriction: MA

Country Restriction: CANADA

Home Depot has Model # F232000, Internet #205527178, Store SKU #1000998773 for half the price, but my on line order failed because the local store does not have them in stock.
Getting as a backup for when we have power failure (note I said when, not if).
The specifications say indoor/outdoor use.

-- Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html



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2017\11\27@160034 by Ivey Cole

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I have a similar heater to what John is referring which is on propane at
the house on the ranch and it works really well. Pretty well heats the
whole house (1500 sq ft). Do have propane piped into the house as have a
large tank outside for the hot water and kitchen stove.  Have a CO
detector but so far it hasn't triggered.  Not sure I'd want this in an
area that might have gasoline spills.


On 11/27/2017 02:32 PM, John Gardner wrote:
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2017\11\27@160836 by John Gardner

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...Not sure I'd want this in an area that might have gasoline spills.

Roger that...   "8)

On 11/27/17, Ivey Cole <@spam@ircole@spam@spamspam_OUTsbcglobal.net> wrote:
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2017\11\27@172439 by RussellMc

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On 28 November 2017 at 03:43, David C Brown <.....dcb.homespamRemoveMEgmail.com> wrote:

> Problem with heated garments is that to do any kind of near precision work
> you need to have your hands unencumbered with gloves.
>

I agree.
​I was thinking more of "body trunk", but fingerless gloves have served me
well - and make me look even more like a hobo than usually. The really
enthused can affect slk gloves which are very thin and surprisingly warm. ​

​When working on engines (not recently) and vehicles in general I used to
find that fingerless gloves had the added bonus of reducing hand damage
from slipped spanners (real tradesmen no doubt don't have this problem :-))
and surprisingly sharp crankshaft webs and the like. ​


   Russell
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2017\11\27@173300 by John Gardner

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Military surplus silk gloves are out there...

The real thing works well....

On 11/27/17, RussellMc <RemoveMEapptechnzspamspamBeGonegmail.com> wrote:
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2017\11\27@174654 by Bob Blick

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Hi Brooke,

I have the 49 states model. Bought it at Friedman's. The one I linked to was the Canadian model because that's where VG lives.

Had it for about 4 or 5 years. The thermocouple started getting a bad ground contact after a couple of years. Wiggling it made it work. Put a screw or something alongside it to hold it tighter. Other than that it's been great.. Especially since it's so portable and has a fan.
They make a hose adapter so you can hook it to a big tank but I just refill the 16 oz tanks.

Bob



________________________________________
From: TakeThisOuTpiclist-bouncesspamspammit.edu <piclist-bouncesEraseMEspammit.edu> on behalf of Brooke Clarke <RemoveMEbrookeEraseMEspamspam_OUTpacific.net>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 12:47 PM
To: @spam@piclistRemoveMEspamEraseMEmit.edu
Subject: RE: [OT] Best garage heating option

Hi Bob:

I was interested the MH18B Item #:F274865 until I saw:

State Restriction: CA

But they do make the MH18B Item #:F274800 California version:
http://www.mrheater.com/big-buddy-portable-heater.html

State Restriction: MA

Country Restriction: CANADA

Home Depot has Model # F232000, Internet #205527178, Store SKU #1000998773 for half the price, but my on line order
failed because the local store does not have them in stock.
Getting as a backup for when we have power failure (note I said when, not if).
The specifications say indoor/outdoor use.

--
Have Fun,

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2017\11\27@190709 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Are the 16 oz tanks built with enough margin to handle the fatigue cycles
from emptying and re-filling?

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 5:46 PM, Bob Blick <EraseMEbobblickspam@spam@outlook.com> wrote:

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2017\11\27@191135 by John Gardner

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My experience is that the tank valve fails,  eventually.

On 11/27/17, Sean Breheny <.....shb7@spam@spamEraseMEcornell.edu> wrote:
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2017\11\27@194340 by Bob Blick

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Same here. I've retired a can or two in the time I've had the heater. The only times I've noticed them leaking is right after you remove an empty from the heater and they are cold and the pressure is real low. They get really cold when you run the heater on high, sometimes frost builds up on the cans. Propane has low vapor pressure and maybe the valves depend on pressure to help stay closed.

Bob
________________________________________
From: piclist-bouncesspam_OUTspam@spam@mit.edu <spamBeGonepiclist-bounces@spam@spammit.edu> on behalf of John Gardner <RemoveMEgoflo3EraseMEspamKILLspamgmail.com>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 4:11 PM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [OT] Best garage heating option

My experience is that the tank valve fails,  eventually.

On 11/27/17, Sean Breheny <spamBeGoneshb7spam_OUTspamRemoveMEcornell.edu> wrote:
> Are the 16 oz tanks built with enough margin to handle the fatigue cycles
> from emptying and re-filling?

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2017\11\28@004954 by Gary Crowell

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Kerosene?
https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200664955_200664955

Never used one, was wondering.


On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 5:43 PM, Bob Blick <.....bobblickspamRemoveMEoutlook.com> wrote:

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2017\11\28@084221 by RussellMc

face picon face

On 28 November 2017 at 18:49, Gary Crowell <RemoveMEgaryacrowellsrspam_OUTspamgmail.com> wrote:

> Kerosene?
> https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200664955_200664955
>
> Never used one, was wondering.
>
> ​I've never met a kerosene heater that did not smell like a kerosene
heater when operating.
Modern ones may be different.


Russell​
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2017\11\28@150130 by Trevor

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RussellMc wrote on 29/11/2017 00:41:
> On 28 November 2017 at 18:49, Gary Crowell <garyacrowellsrspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Kerosene?
>> www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200664955_200664955
>>
>> Never used one, was wondering.
>>
>> ​I've never met a kerosene heater that did not smell like a kerosene
>> heater when operating. Modern ones may be different.

Yep, agreed - school in NZ in the 60s and those kero heaters in winter
smelt like kero heaters.



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2017\11\28@185944 by John Gardner

picon face

Kerosene/Paraffin is also one of the most expensive (BTU/lb)

options out there,  these days.  Around here,  anyway...

...


On 11/28/17, Trevor <spam_OUTpiclistspam_OUTspamspam_OUTsentry.org> wrote:
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2017\11\28@193410 by stephen.forrestn/a

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How about running/hosting  bitcoin miners? Not economical if mining is your purpose but if you're looking to generate heat from electricity 'coin could be a by-product...

Stephen

{Original Message removed}

2017\11\28@194105 by John Gardner

picon face

:)

...


On 11/28/17, RemoveMEstephen.forrestKILLspamspam@spam@agilent.com <stephen.forrestspamBeGonespam.....agilent.com> wrote:
> How about running/hosting  bitcoin miners? Not economical if mining is your
> purpose but if you're looking to generate heat from electricity 'coin could
> be a by-product...
>
> Stephen
>
> {Original Message removed}

2017\11\28@195858 by RussellMc

face picon face

On 29 November 2017 at 13:34, <KILLspamstephen.forrestspam.....agilent.com> wrote:

> How about running/hosting  bitcoin miners? Not economical if mining is
> your purpose but if you're looking to generate heat from electricity 'coin
> could be a by-product...
>

​That may not be sensible ​in various specific cases, but could well make
sense in a number of situations.
Especially so when people are seriously addicted to the sport.

Operating grow spaces growing whatever may also be a useful sideline.
Growing high-value-whatever even more so. For some values of useful and a
limited range of wise.

We are investigating you high power usage.
"I'm bitcoin mining".
Nothing to see here, move along. Or not.

Russell.
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2017\11\28@213331 by mail

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face
RussellMc <spam_OUTapptechnzspamKILLspamgmail.com> wrote:
> On 28 November 2017 at 18:49, Gary Crowell <RemoveMEgaryacrowellsrRemoveMEspamEraseMEgmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Kerosene?
>> www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200664955_200664955
>>
>> Never used one, was wondering.
>>
>> I've never met a kerosene heater that did not smell like a kerosene
>> heater when operating.
>> Modern ones may be different.

   A kerosene heater identical in every way to the model shown at the
link was used by me for several years. A couple of years ago it got
replaced with a vented natural gas wall heater:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Williams-35-000-BTU-hr-Monterey-Top-Vent-Gravity-Wall-Furnace-Natural-Gas-Heater-with-Wall-or-Cabinet-Mounted-Thermostat-3509622A/100059323

   My garage is used for work every day. My insurance agent says that
although home owners are free to do whatever they want, the code in my
area restricts garage heaters to the vented gas type. Solid (eg pellet
stoves) and liquid (eg kerosene) garage heaters are not up to code.
   In my experience the kerosene fumes were tolerable most of the time,
except when the flame was extinguished. My kerosene heater also did not
put out much heat on very cold days. It tended to function more like a
small campfire in the middle of the garage. You stood within one foot of
it to warm up. Then you went about your business until you needed to warm up again.
   The manufacturer clearly states that the kerosene heater must be used in a well ventilated area. So there's always a lingering suspicion in your mind about CO poisoning, whether warranted or not.
   Kerosene fuel presents yet another problem. You really need to use
white kerosene, which is typically sold by the gallon in a retail
package, when you can find it. It's very expensive and scarce when you need it the most.
   The alternative to white kerosene is the kerosene sold in bulk at
your local fuel depot. Uncle Sam doesn't collect fuel tax on kerosene used for heaters so red dye is added to discourage vehicular use of kerosene intended for heating.     The red dye adds a lot of tar to the flame. Instead of a long, clean, white flame you get a short, flickering, orange flame. It's yet
another thing to ponder as you inhale the fumes.

Thank you,

-- Don Kuenz KB7RPU

Genius is nothing but a greater aptitude for patience. - de Buffon

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2017\11\28@214326 by Bob Blick

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Reminds me of an episode of "Silicon Valley":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0w4013f4eM

Bob


________________________________________
From: KILLspampiclist-bouncesspamspamBeGonemit.edu <piclist-bouncesspamspammit.edu> on behalf of RussellMc
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 4:58 PM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [OT] Best garage heating option

On 29 November 2017 at 13:34, <RemoveMEstephen.forrestspamBeGonespamRemoveMEagilent.com> wrote:

> How about running/hosting  bitcoin miners? Not economical if mining is
> your purpose but if you're looking to generate heat from electricity 'coin
> could be a by-product...
>

​That may not be sensible ​in various specific cases, but could well make
sense in a number of situations.
Especially so when people are seriously addicted to the sport.

Operating grow spaces growing whatever may also be a useful sideline.
Growing high-value-whatever even more so. For some values of useful and a
limited range of wise.

We are investigating you high power usage.
"I'm bitcoin mining".
Nothing to see here, move along. Or not.

Russell.

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2017\11\28@215602 by Richard Pope

picon face
Hello all,
    When my wife and I were rebuilding and expanding our home we used a large Kerosene Heater. Several walls and a large section of the roof were missing. I live in SW WI and it gets cold here during the winter. We had tarps over these areas. Very large tarps. The tarp over the expansion area allowed us to fire up the heater and wait for about 20 minutes or so. If there was no snow and ice on the tarp it would be completely inflated and we could work in a shirt sleeve environment. If there was snow and ice we would have to go and use brooms from underneath the tarps work the snow and ice off the tarps before they would inflate. There was a little bit of smell on first start and a little bit on shutdown. This was about 15 years and was brand new at the time. We spent all winter of that year working under the tarps. Fun, fun, fun in the summertime. :)!
Thanks,
rich!

On 11/29/2017 2:33 AM, KILLspammailspamBeGonespamcrcomp.net wrote:
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2017\11\28@221615 by Allen Mulvey

flavicon
face
Much of the need for a "well ventilated area" is not so much
for fear of CO but rather a need for fuel. In a well sealed
environment you can burn off all your oxygen and asphyxiate
yourself.

Allen

{Original Message removed}

2017\11\28@223131 by Richard Pope

picon face
Allen,
    Very true. With our tarp setup it was completely open at the bottom to insure that there was plenty of air for the heater and for us. Since CO2 and CO are heavier than air they would fall out of the bottom of the tarps and protect us from being poisoned by them. This is slightly different from a closed building where these can build up to toxic levels very quickly.
Thanks,
rich!

On 11/28/2017 9:16 PM, Allen Mulvey wrote:
> Much of the need for a "well ventilated area" is not so much
> for fear of CO but rather a need for fuel. In a well sealed
> environment you can burn off all your oxygen and asphyxiate
> yourself.
>
> Allen
>
> {Original Message removed}

2017\11\28@225236 by Bob Blick

flavicon
face
Probably most new heaters have oxygen sensors, I know the Big Buddy says it does. I don't know where it's located, but I assume it's integrated into the tipover switch.

Bob

________________________________________
From: spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesspammit.edu <spam_OUTpiclist-bouncesSTOPspamspammit.edu> on behalf of Allen Mulvey
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 7:16 PM
To: 'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.'
Subject: RE: [OT] Best garage heating option

Much of the need for a "well ventilated area" is not so much
for fear of CO but rather a need for fuel. In a well sealed
environment you can burn off all your oxygen and asphyxiate
yourself.

Allen

{Original Message removed}

2017\11\29@023739 by RussellMc

face picon face

On 29 November 2017 at 15:43, Bob Blick <RemoveMEbobblickspamspamoutlook.com> wrote:


> Reminds me of an episode of "Silicon Valley":
> ​​
> https://www.youtube.com/
> ​redacted
> ?v=W0w
> ​74HC​
> 4013fM
> ​
>

​What have you done with Bob?
​If anyone ​ else had posted that I might have suggested that I'm the good
cop and that Bob is liable to be very wrath re posting even links to NSFW
material that innocent list members may accidentally open in environments
where it may cause them strife.

As you are (allegedly) Bob I'll observe that
that I might have suggested that I'm
​somewhat surprised at the
posting
​of ​
even
​a
link
​ ​
to NSFW material that innocent list members may accidentally open in
environments where it may cause them strife.

N
​o doubt I'm missing something pertinent. Odds are I'll be brought up to
date in short order :-)​



             Russell


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2017\11\29@113852 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
CO2 is heavier than air but CO is slightly lighter than air (1.145 g/cm^3
versus roughly 1.2 g/cm^3)


On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 10:31 PM, Richard Pope <EraseMEmechanic_2STOPspamspamRemoveMEcharter.net>
wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}

2017\11\29@114319 by Bob Blick

flavicon
face

"If you are a moderator they let you do anything"

oops. I was letting someone else be my moral compass.

If I have offended anyone, I truly apologize.

Bob


From: spam_OUTpiclist-bouncesRemoveMEspamEraseMEmit.edu <TakeThisOuTpiclist-bouncesRemoveMEspam@spam@mit.edu> on behalf of RussellMc
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 11:36 PM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [OT] Best garage heating option

On 29 November 2017 at 15:43, Bob Blick <EraseMEbobblickRemoveMEspamoutlook.com> wrote:


> Reminds me of an episode of "Silicon Valley":
> ​​
> https://www.youtube.com/
> ​redacted
> ?v=W0w
> ​74HC​
> 4013fM
> ​
>

​What have you done with Bob?
​If anyone ​ else had posted that I might have suggested that I'm the good
cop and that Bob is liable to be very wrath re posting even links to NSFW
material that innocent list members may accidentally open in environments
where it may cause them strife.

As you are (allegedly) Bob I'll observe that
that I might have suggested that I'm
​somewhat surprised at the
posting
​of ​
even
​a
link
​ ​
to NSFW material that innocent list members may accidentally open in
environments where it may cause them strife.

N
​o doubt I'm missing something pertinent. Odds are I'll be brought up to
date in short order :-)​



             Russell


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2017\11\29@122353 by jim

flavicon
face

Don't want CO though do you?

Regards,

Jim

{Quote hidden}

> > > {Original Message removed}

2017\11\29@132043 by John Gardner

picon face
I use an unvented 30,000 BTU NG heater for supplemental heat in

a not terribly airtight wooden house.  The heater's low-oxygen sensor

will shut down the heater at an O2 level equivalent to 4000' ASL,  and

there is also a tipover sensor shutoff.

The room is centrally located in the house - A ceiling fan pushes heated

air out an open interior door into the hallway,  which has bedrooms at one

end,  & the kitchen & dining room at the other.

There is a separate CO alarm (AC pwr + battery b/u) which also records

peak CO level between resets.  I keep the house HVAC thermostat set a

few degrees lower than the supplemental heater - The effect is that the

house is comfortable & the HVAC system (a heat pump) only runs in very

cold weather.

This setup paid for itself last winter,  so I'm fairly pleased...   "8)

...


On 11/29/17, jimKILLspamspamEraseMEjpes.com <EraseMEjim@spam@spam@spam@jpes.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> > > {Original Message removed}

2017\11\29@133752 by Van Horn, David

flavicon
face
Hmm, wouldn't even start here then.  5200'+.  I have friends at almost 10,000'


-----Original Message-----
From: TakeThisOuTpiclist-bouncesspammit.edu [spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTmit.edu] On Behalf Of John Gardner
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 11:15 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [OT] Best garage heating option

I use an unvented 30,000 BTU NG heater for supplemental heat in

a not terribly airtight wooden house.  The heater's low-oxygen sensor

will shut down the heater at an O2 level equivalent to 4000' ASL,  and

there is also a tipover sensor shutoff.

The room is centrally located in the house - A ceiling fan pushes heated

air out an open interior door into the hallway,  which has bedrooms at one

end,  & the kitchen & dining room at the other.

There is a separate CO alarm (AC pwr + battery b/u) which also records

peak CO level between resets.  I keep the house HVAC thermostat set a

few degrees lower than the supplemental heater - The effect is that the

house is comfortable & the HVAC system (a heat pump) only runs in very

cold weather.

This setup paid for itself last winter,  so I'm fairly pleased...   "8)

...


On 11/29/17, EraseMEjim.....spamKILLspamjpes.com <spamjimspamjpes.com> wrote:
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2017\11\29@135335 by John Gardner

picon face
That's my understanding too.  ~ 200' ASL here,  so no problem.

...


On 11/29/17, Van Horn, David <spam_OUTdavid.vanhornTakeThisOuTspamEraseMEbackcountryaccess.com> wrote:
> Hmm, wouldn't even start here then.  5200'+.  I have friends at almost
> 10,000'
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2017\11\29@182908 by Justin Richards

face picon face
May be over kill but I use a Fire Demon to warm an open patio.

People tend to keep their distance as it pumps out 47kw.  It keeps us
toastie warm on the coldest of nights.

They are often seem in big machinery sheds on farms and do a great job.

Burns diesel, kero, sump oil, cooking oil.  16 hours on a tank.

Starts a bit smoky then burns clear. Probably spews out really really bad
chemicals when burning sump oil.

http://henstock.com.au/demon%C2%AE-heaters

http://www.littlefarmco.com.au/products/the-%E2%80%98demon%E2%80%99-heater/

For your garage you would need to open the garage door completely and
place the fire demon just outside

On 27 November 2017 at 16:37, V G <EraseMEveegeespamBeGonespamKILLspamveegee.org> wrote:

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2017\11\29@202842 by RussellMc

face picon face

On 30 November 2017 at 12:29, Justin Richards <RemoveMEjustin.richardsspamBeGonespamspamgmail.com>
wrote:

> May be over kill but I use a Fire Demon to warm an open patio.
>
>
​Should be operated *inside a Pentagram
<https://www.google.co.nz/search?biw=1120&bih=580&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=F10fWrygJYHh0gT-zI_4Bg&q=fire+demon+pentagram&oq=fire+demon+pentagram&gs_l=psy-ab.3...4468.8247.0.9431.10.10.0.0.0.0.437.2240.2-7j1j1.9.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..1.2.427...0j0i67k1j0i30k1j0i8i30k1j0i24k1.0.S1EpGJyBZ5Y>*
at all times.


         Russell
​
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2017\11\29@205901 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
At first I thought that this Fire Demon was a type of radiant heater but
then I noticed that there was no large surface area to glow. Does it work
by putting out hot air (drawn in by convection)?


On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 6:29 PM, Justin Richards <@spam@justin.richardsspamspamgmail.com>
wrote:

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2017\11\29@222803 by stephen.forrestn/a

flavicon
face
LOL - :
http://www.littlefarmco.com.au/products/the-%E2%80%98demon%E2%80%99-heater/

Price is $660 - they really should make it $666 ;o)

S.

{Original Message removed}

2017\11\30@004031 by Justin Richards

face picon face
The flue section glows a nice red and too hot to get near. Not something to
accidently cuddle but works well standing or sitting around in a large
circle.  It also makes for a good talking center piece.

Surprisingly the area above to top cap is relatively cool and can easily
hold your hand here, its just hard to stand close enough for any length of
time.

We call the one at work the chuffer as it produces a pleasant chuffing
sound.

I guess they are not particularly safe but very serious about pumping out
heat.  It is adjustable and shuts down in an instant.  Which I also find
surprising.

Stephen, now you have mentioned it, $666 perfect.

On 30 November 2017 at 09:58, Sean Breheny <.....shb7RemoveMEspamcornell.edu> wrote:

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2017\11\30@010325 by RussellMc

face picon face

On 30 November 2017 at 18:40, Justin Richards <RemoveMEjustin.richardsspamspamSTOPspamgmail.com>
wrote:


> Stephen, now you have mentioned it, $666 perfect.
>

​
​
On 30 November 2017 at 14:22, RussellMc <.....apptechnzEraseMEspamgmail.com> wrote:

>
>>
> ​Should be operated *inside a Pentagram
> <https://www.google.co.nz/search?biw=1120&bih=580&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=F10fWrygJYHh0gT-zI_4Bg&q=fire+demon+pentagram&oq=fire+demon+pentagram&gs_l=psy-ab.3...4468.8247.0.9431.10.10.0.0.0.0.437.2240.2-7j1j1.9.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..1.2.427...0j0i67k1j0i30k1j0i8i30k1j0i24k1.0.S1EpGJyBZ5Y>* at
> all times.
>
​
​$600 FOR THE HEATER.
$6 FOR THE PENTAGRAM.

​
​r​
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'[OT] Best garage heating option'
2017\12\03@111223 by John Gardner
picon face
Addendum:  The 4000' ASL O2 shutoff I quoted is for the Mr. Heater

30,000 BTU NG Ventless Heater (which I use).

The Mr. Heater "Big Buddy" 18K BTU propane heater manual states

that the O2 Depletion shut-off equivalent is ~ 7000' ASL.
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2017\12\04@213756 by RussellMc

face picon face

On 4 December 2017 at 05:12, John Gardner <spamBeGonegoflo3spamRemoveMEgmail.com> wrote:

> Addendum:  The 4000' ASL O2 shutoff I quoted is for the Mr. Heater
>
>
> The Mr. Heater "Big Buddy" 18K BTU propane heater manual states
>
> that the O2 Depletion shut-off equivalent is ~ 7000' ASL.
>
> ​Getting bad in Denver.
Downright marginal in Albaquerque
Flickers dimly on Mt Mitchell

    R
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2017\12\05@003908 by Sean Breheny

face picon face

Not to mention variation due to barometric pressure!

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 9:37 PM, RussellMc <.....apptechnzEraseMEspamgmail.com> wrote:

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2017\12\11@181215 by V G

flavicon
face
I ended up getting this for now:
https://www.amazon.ca/Dr-Infrared-Heater-DR988-Industrial/dp/B003XOZN7A/

Hopefully 5.6kW is enough to make it at least comfortable to work in the
garage. I'll probably need run a 50A line to the garage to support a second
one if necessary.
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2017\12\11@182434 by John Gardner

picon face
Two-car garage?  With "decent insulation"  5.6 kW oughta

run you out of there...   "8)

On 12/11/17, V G <spamveegee@spam@spamSTOPspamveegee.org> wrote:
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2017\12\11@184629 by John Gardner

picon face
If electric heat does'nt work out,  here's another option:

http://dickinsonmarine.com/product/atlantic-diesel-cook-stove/

  "8)

...


On 12/11/17, John Gardner <spamBeGonegoflo3spamBeGonespam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:
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2017\12\12@002213 by stephen.forrestn/a

flavicon
face
Hmmm - so, about 4 Antminer S9s. Still, lower up-front cost and I don't suppose you would run this 24/7.

;o)

Stephen

{Original Message removed}

2017\12\12@035225 by RussellMc

face picon face

On 12 December 2017 at 18:22, <stephen.forrestKILLspamspamspamagilent.com> wrote:

> Hmmm - so, about 4 Antminer S9s.



> Still, lower up-front cost


​by a factor of about 60 +/-?  :-)​.

And, the DR988 may make more profit over its lifetime.


              R

I can get electricity for maybe $0.05/kWh for about 6 - 8 hours per day.
But nobody seems to make long enough barge-poles.
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'[OT] Best garage heating option'
2018\01\05@002458 by V G
flavicon
face
On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 6:24 PM, John Gardner <spam_OUTgoflo3@spam@spamgmail.com> wrote:

> Two-car garage?  With "decent insulation"  5.6 kW oughta
>
> run you out of there...   "8)
>

I was really hoping for this to be true. Toronto just hit -21 degrees C
(-35 with "windchill") today. Luckily, it doesn't usually get any colder
than this.

Although I didn't yet plug in my 5.6kW 240V heater (I still have to run a
proper 240V 50A line into my garage), I did use a portable generator and
hooked up a total of 4.6kW of electric heaters for temporary use. Even
after two hours of heating, temperature was still below 0 degrees in the
garage. It was enough to allow me to work without winter gloves with all of
the heaters surrounding me, but still definitely needed two layers of
clothing and a winter jacket.

I think I'll end up needing at least 10kW to get the garage up to
comfortable temperatures quick enough. I'm aiming for at least 10 degrees
so I can work comfortably with just a sweater.

A NEMA 6-50 receptacle and a couple of NEMA 6-30 receptacles should also be
useful for my welding equipment and a possible future electric car.

Anyone have any references to electrician's guides or any documentation of
that sort to make sure I stick to the electrical code for this permanent
installation?
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2018\01\05@003717 by Justin Richards

face picon face
Temperatures hard for me to fathom. I struggle to watch bigclive working in
7degC.

On 5 Jan 2018 13:25, "V G" <TakeThisOuTveegeespam_OUTspamveegee.org> wrote:

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2018\01\05@005142 by James Cameron

flavicon
face
Impossible for me to fathom.  My freezer doesn't even go that low.  ;-)

Today's peak around 40°C, tomorrow around 42°C.  Not that hot this
time around, but hot for many days.  Infrastructure failures expected.

http://www.bom.gov.au/australia/heatwave/

-- James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
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2018\01\05@010944 by Allen Mulvey

flavicon
face
You are making me jealous. We just has -16F (-26.7C).

Allen

-----Original Message-----
From: TakeThisOuTpiclist-bouncesEraseMEspamRemoveMEmit.edu
[spam_OUTpiclist-bouncesRemoveMEspam.....mit.edu] On Behalf Of James Cameron
Sent: Friday, January 5, 2018 12:52 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [OT] Best garage heating option

Impossible for me to fathom.  My freezer doesn't even go
that low.  ;-)

Today's peak around 40°C, tomorrow around 42°C.  Not that
hot this
time around, but hot for many days.  Infrastructure failures
expected.

http://www.bom.gov.au/australia/heatwave/

-- James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
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2018\01\05@041529 by Sean Breheny

face picon face

Here in Andover, Massachusetts, USA, the coldest I have seen this winter so
far was -6 deg F (-21C). The coldest I've ever experienced was -19 deg F
(-28C) in Scranton, Pennsylvania but that was a real outlier.

On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 1:09 AM, Allen Mulvey <spamallenKILLspamspamKILLspamamulvey.com> wrote:

> You are making me jealous. We just has -16F (-26.7C).
>
> Allen
>
> {Original Message removed}

2018\01\05@043905 by RussellMc

face picon face

On 5 January 2018 at 22:15, Sean Breheny <spamshb7spam_OUTspamcornell.edu> wrote:

> Here in Andover, Massachusetts, USA, the coldest I have seen this winter so
> far was -6 deg F (-21C). The coldest I've ever experienced was -19 deg F
> (-28C) in Scranton, Pennsylvania but that was a real outlier.
>
> ​I've exerienced -40C in Christchurch NZ, but that was in an Antarctic
simulator :-).
And somewhat colder, briefly, in a cold store.

Here in NZ at 10:30pm it's +18 C out.

My neighbour thinks it's cold during the day for Summer. Compared to Summer
in Jalalabad he's probably right.



   Russell

​​
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2018\01\05@052139 by Forrest Christian (List Account) n/a

flavicon
face
10kW still may not be enough for a 2 car garage.   My recollection is
somewhere between 40-50k BTU is needed for this space, and a quick google
search agrees.   And I'm sure it's probably higher up here in the
frigid north (I'm in Montana, got down to -13F/-25C over new years, one day
it didn't get above -3F/-20C, so I understand the cold).

10kW is only 34K BTU.   I'm not surprised 5.6K didn't even touch it.

If I can't do propane or natural gas, I'm a big fan of the
dyna-glo convection kerosene heaters.  I just looked, the one I use is 23K
BTU. $100US or thereabouts.    Or there are various tri-fuel units
available.      Keroscene is not odor-free, but it definitely isn't any
worse than you'd find in most garages, etc.

On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 10:24 PM, V G <STOPspamveegeespam_OUTspamspamBeGoneveegee.org> wrote:

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-- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.*
Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
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2018\01\05@070645 by John Gardner

picon face
Perhaps definitions of "decent insulation" vary.   :)

A thoroughly cold-soaked concrete pad + lots of cold metal

(like a car?) will suck up the BTUs while defrosting...


On 1/5/18, Forrest Christian (List Account) <EraseMElistsRemoveMEspampacketflux.com> wrote:
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2018\01\05@101940 by Van Horn, David

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face
Seems like a good reason to invest in a Flir Thermal camera and find the heat leaks.

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2018\01\06@174410 by RussellMc

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On 6 January 2018 at 04:19, Van Horn, David <
RemoveMEdavid.vanhornTakeThisOuTspambackcountryaccess.com> wrote:

> Seems like a good reason to invest in a Flir Thermal camera and find the
> heat leaks.
>
> ​A simple spot temperature measurer would probably be good enough - albeit
less convenient than a FLIR. Low cost low res FLIRs exist.

Insulation with foil may help. Insulation with various commercial materials
- often available surplus or used at low cost or free ​

​(here anyway) would likely help a lot.
You can calculate required R value from area and what result you get with
the current heater and then see what you need to make it work to suit your
needs. ​
​Roof and walls will contribute differently and ​depending what the
roof/ceiling consists of, insulating  it alone may be good enough.

Photo?

There is a small chance that you are getting enough heat pooling (vertical
temperature differential) at the ceiling/ roof peak (depending on whether
it is flat or peaked or ...) that a circulating fan will help
significantly. In residences this sometimes makes an immense difference.



Russell
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