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'[OT] Another Good Electronics Discussion List?'
2007\12\04@073555 by Martin McCormick

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face
       I just posted another OT message to this list and am
feeling a little bad about it. Some months ago, there was a
discussion here about the number of off-topic postings and how
they were overtaking the primary purpose of this very good list
which is to provide a forum for the discussion of the Microchip
line of PIC's and how to program and use them.

       I have been as bad as many about OT postings to this
list so am wondering if there are other general electronics
discussion lists that are known for intelligent civil discussion
as this list is.

       That is the key. There are tons of electronics
discussion lists on Usenet and over email and some become buried
in spam and infantile flame wars between people and factions
that are totally of no interest to many of us.

       This is a good list and I would hate to see it fade
away, etc. Thanks for any suggestions.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK
Systems Engineer
OSU Information Technology Department Network Operations Group

2007\12\04@084453 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Dec 4, 2007 8:35 PM, Martin McCormick <spam_OUTmartinTakeThisOuTspamdc.cis.okstate.edu> wrote:
>         I just posted another OT message to this list and am
> feeling a little bad about it. Some months ago, there was a
> discussion here about the number of off-topic postings and how
> they were overtaking the primary purpose of this very good list
> which is to provide a forum for the discussion of the Microchip
> line of PIC's and how to program and use them.

For PIC Microchip forum is the best and PIClist is a good
2nd choice.

{Quote hidden}

I think there are many mailing lists and news groups
on electronics. You can monitor as many lists as you
like through Google groups or Gmane.

Example:
groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics/topics
groups.google.com/groups/dir?&sel=33580724&expand=1
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/LTspice/

By the way, if you are using a decent email client (like Gmail),
it is very easy to ignore the [OT] emails you are not interested.

Xiaofan

2007\12\04@094157 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
> I just posted another OT message to this list and am
> feeling a little bad about it. Some months ago, there was
> a
> discussion here about the number of off-topic postings and
> how
> they were overtaking the primary purpose of this very good
> list

That would only be by the "Muppets Bald Eagle" variety who
don't read the FAQ that says what the list is about and for
and instead seek to drive it towards being what they think
it should be.

There are various lists which ARE about ...

> which is to provide a forum for the discussion of the
> Microchip
> line of PIC's and how to program and use them.

and people who cannot handle the PICList global community
are welcome to emigrate to such. Those who are even a tiny
bit flexible can instead set their tags filter to only [PIC]
and be blissfully unaware of the vast amount of mind
expanding and edifying material which the list is awash
with.

Those who want a little more exposure to the wonders of the
world can add the [EE] tag and get everything engineering as
well and STILL not be aware of the plethora of highly
interesting things that buzz to and fro in OT. Alas those
who want to add just electrical engineering, which many may
(and do) expect would be the next logical progression after
eg PIC, cannot do so as the EE tage is EE and not EE. James
in his doubtless infinite wisdom has manfully resisted this
many a long year the addition of one more solitary wee tag
betwixt PIC and OT so that EE can become, as many think it
is, "Electrical Engineering" and the new eg [TECHO] or
whatever tag picks up all the technical but not OT for
*THIS* list material.

finally we have the rich and varied tapestry of [OT] where
characters as diverse as Russell and Jinx can ply their
wares without impacting those of finer sensitivities. Alas
Jinx chooses on occasion to deposit samples of his lewd
OTedness in my respectable EE posts to the amusement of all
but the silent majority, and the not quite silent me. Can't
be helped alas :-).

SO and my point !!!!

NO - PICList is meant to be rich and diverse.
Read the FAQ !!! - it says so, if not in those words.
Tags are available for just the purpose of allowing an N
sizes fit most approach.
This is not meant to be a stultifying overoverover moderated
one trick forum.

> I have been as bad

as good

> as many about OT postings to this
> list so am wondering if there are other general
> electronics
> discussion lists that are known for intelligent civil
> discussion
> as this list is.

None with such a rich tapestry, and Jinx.

> That is the key. There are tons of electronics
> discussion lists on Usenet and over email and some become
> buried
> in spam and infantile flame wars between people and
> factions
> that are totally of no interest to many of us.

The reason that this list is as it is is that there is only
one real real real rule and that is "don't even THINK about
being un-nice to people". James enforces this with an iron
fist. Sometimes he gets it wrong and he's somewhat myopic
about being convinced that he has done so when he does.
Shows he's a true engineer :-). There are other pretend
ruules too, but if james decides to waive them for as long
as he finds the dicussions interesting then they are
auto-waived. Until he's had enough and it's business as
usual.

So - do post OT - as long as it's tagged it hurts nobody who
doesn't want to get hurt. ie they can turn the tag off.

> This is a good list and I would hate to see it fade
> away, etc. Thanks for any suggestions.

So far its doing OK.
Participant numbers vary. Maybe we could do a viral
marketing membership drive ;-).

       Russell McMahon
       (sometime ZL1ANC)


> Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK
> Systems Engineer
> OSU Information Technology Department Network Operations
> Group

2007\12\04@101445 by Byron Jeff

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On Tue, Dec 04, 2007 at 06:35:50AM -0600, Martin McCormick wrote:
>        I just posted another OT message to this list and am
> feeling a little bad about it. Some months ago, there was a
> discussion here about the number of off-topic postings and how
> they were overtaking the primary purpose of this very good list
> which is to provide a forum for the discussion of the Microchip
> line of PIC's and how to program and use them.

Martin,

I don't think electronics is off topic at all. Even some of the actually
off topic stuff is interesting.

>
>        I have been as bad as many about OT postings to this
> list so am wondering if there are other general electronics
> discussion lists that are known for intelligent civil discussion
> as this list is.

Good luck with that. My personal preference is that you keep it right here
especially if it's general electronics. I learn tons of stuff just reading
through.

The other point is that with a good threaded mail reader it's pretty
trivial to simply delete any thread that's uninteresting.

The final point is that each individual member of the PICLIST can remove
delivery of OT threaded stuff. Since anyone who isn't interested can opt
out, I really don't see what the problem is?

>
>        That is the key. There are tons of electronics
> discussion lists on Usenet and over email and some become buried
> in spam and infantile flame wars between people and factions
> that are totally of no interest to many of us.
>
>        This is a good list and I would hate to see it fade
> away, etc. Thanks for any suggestions.

Keep it here. If it's truly electronics, then it really should be posted
under the [EE] tag. [OT] is for truly off topic stuff.

Again I hope that you keep it here. I like the busy one stop shop.

BAJ

2007\12\04@144211 by James Newton

face picon face
Thanks for your concern, but I don't see the OT discussions as a bad thing
at all. What makes the PICList special is that we have a culture of calm
debate (which I try to enforce) and we are therefore able to talk about a
wider range of subjects than most lists can handle. Doing OT without flames
is what we are best at.

I have noticed that there are a lot of OT tagged posts that are really EE. I
would like to encourage people to use the EE tag more often.

It does sort of tick me off that people go to the microchip forums for PIC
help, but then I don't know what that bothers me... Of course they would.
They go there and get yelled at, get bombarded with what amounts to spam,
and... they also get good advice, although sometimes a bit harsh. I guess
the up side is that we don't often have to deal with really clueless newbies
anymore.

Another thing I would LOVE to see is more discussion of chips other than the
PIC here. The name "PIC" list is unfortunate in that it seem to really lock
us into PIC (and makes me nervous waiting for a lawyer at Microchip to
decide to sue us... I want credit for deleting several adjective in front of
the work "lawyer").

We have tags for SX (mostly dead, which is not the same thing...) AVR (I
would kill for more AVR content here) and ARM. If any of you happen to post
a message to another list related to one of those processors, please
consider adding the tag and posting a copy of that message here?

--
James.

{Original Message removed}

2007\12\05@022228 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 12/5/07, James Newton <.....jamesnewtonKILLspamspam@spam@massmind.org> wrote:
> I have noticed that there are a lot of OT tagged posts that are really EE. I
> would like to encourage people to use the EE tag more often.

The problem is the definition of EE. I think Russel's suggestion to
add a [TECH] tag is good.

> It does sort of tick me off that people go to the microchip forums for PIC
> help, but then I don't know what that bothers me... Of course they would.
> They go there and get yelled at, get bombarded with what amounts to spam,
> and... they also get good advice, although sometimes a bit harsh. I guess
> the up side is that we don't often have to deal with really clueless newbies
> anymore.

I believe Microchip Forum is much better than what you have described.
There are many advanced topics now that Microchip is a bigger company
and branched in to more advanced MCUs and peripherals (USB/Ethernet/
Zigbee/etc) whereas PIClist is much more limited in this aspect.

> Another thing I would LOVE to see is more discussion of chips other than the
> PIC here. The name "PIC" list is unfortunate in that it seem to really lock
> us into PIC (and makes me nervous waiting for a lawyer at Microchip to
> decide to sue us... I want credit for deleting several adjective in front of
> the work "lawyer").

It seems that Microchip is pretty liberal. http://www.microchipc.com is
still alive. http://www.picmicrochip.com is still alive. So PIClist.com
will be alive.

> We have tags for SX (mostly dead, which is not the same thing...) AVR (I
> would kill for more AVR content here) and ARM. If any of you happen to post
> a message to another list related to one of those processors, please
> consider adding the tag and posting a copy of that message here?
>

I believe this is a bit difficult. You may want to talk to Leon Heller
who is running the Yahoo LPC2000 group with quite good success.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/lpc2000/

MSP430 Yahoo groups seem to be successful as well.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/msp430/

It seems to me that there are no good general mailing lists for
8051 and AVR (not counting avr-gcc/avr-libc) since the web
forum like 8052.com and avrfreaks.net are pretty popular.

It will not be easy to attract people to PIClist for AVR
and 8051. Quite some of them have wrong perceptions
of PICs (they only know of PIC16 and not so much
about PIC18/dsPIC/PIC24 and now PIC32).

Xiaofan

2007\12\05@064701 by Enki

picon face
On 5 Dec 2007 at 15:22, Xiaofan Chen wrote:

> It seems to me that there are no good general mailing lists for
> 8051 and AVR (not counting avr-gcc/avr-libc) since the web
> forum like 8052.com and avrfreaks.net are pretty popular.
>

       Maybe this one:

       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AVR-Chat/

       MJ

2007\12\05@104248 by David VanHorn

picon face
>        Maybe this one:
>
>        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AVR-Chat/
>

I was going to suggest that, but modesty forbade.. (and I didn't get
on this thread fast enough :)

Actually, there's a fair number of people on here who do AVR work, me
included.  I've been sort of the "loyal opposition" guy, working
almost entirely in AVRs.  I co-mod the list above, and I can't stand
the "forum" approach in general, so I avoid "avr freaks" and it's ilk
even though they are widely subscribed.

2007\12\05@120616 by John Chung

picon face

--- David VanHorn <microbrixspamKILLspamgmail.com> wrote:

> >        Maybe this one:
> >
> >        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AVR-Chat/
> >
>
> I was going to suggest that, but modesty forbade..
> (and I didn't get
> on this thread fast enough :)
>
> Actually, there's a fair number of people on here
> who do AVR work, me
> included.  I've been sort of the "loyal opposition"
> guy, working
> almost entirely in AVRs.  I co-mod the list above,
> and I can't stand
> the "forum" approach in general, so I avoid "avr
> freaks" and it's ilk
> even though they are widely subscribed.
> --
 Sometimes I do post questions on AVRFreak. They are
a helpful bunch.

John Chung


     ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
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2007\12\05@125336 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Dec 5, 2007, at 9:04 AM, John Chung wrote:

> Sometimes I do post questions on AVRFreak. They are
> a helpful bunch.

Helpful, but not ... philosophical.

I find that questions on PICList OFTEN spur discussions
that are both interesting and educational.  You get MORE
than a simple answer to your question.

Anywhere else (it seems), not so much :-(

BillW

2007\12\05@134016 by David VanHorn

picon face
> > --
>  Sometimes I do post questions on AVRFreak. They are
> a helpful bunch.
>
> John Chung

I'm sure they are, it's just that the "forum" interface grates on my
nerves, and the name is just too cheezy.

Like telling your boss you found the new gatling gun spec on
"hellokitty-deathweapons.com"

2007\12\06@100650 by William Couture

face picon face
On Dec 5, 2007 12:04 PM, John Chung <.....kravnusKILLspamspam.....yahoo.com> wrote:

> Sometimes I do post questions on AVRFreak. They are
> a helpful bunch.

I tried a question on AVRFreaks.  The people who responded didn't even
understand the question, and had no interest in anything except being
jerks to bakup their position.

Maybe this was unusual, but it did not leave a good first impression.

Bill

--
Psst...  Hey, you... Buddy...  Want a kitten?  straycatblues.petfinder.org

2007\12\06@100913 by William Couture

face picon face
On Dec 4, 2007 2:42 PM, James Newton <EraseMEjamesnewtonspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmassmind.org> wrote:

> AVR (I would kill for more AVR content here) and ARM. If any of you happen to post
> a message to another list related to one of those processors, please
> consider adding the tag and posting a copy of that message here?

As a datapoint -- I joined the PICLIST several years ago when my then-current
job had me programming PICs.

My current job (for the last 2 years or so...) does not use PICs.  Older designs
use 8051 variants (or 68HC11), all our new designes use AVR processors.

But since I'm doing software in C instead of design, I rarely have a question
that I need to put to the group.

Bill

--
Psst...  Hey, you... Buddy...  Want a kitten?  straycatblues.petfinder.org

2007\12\06@131225 by David VanHorn

picon face
> I tried a question on AVRFreaks.  The people who responded didn't even
> understand the question, and had no interest in anything except being
> jerks to bakup their position.
>
> Maybe this was unusual, but it did not leave a good first impression.

Anybody's welcome on AVR-Chat, even pic guys :)

2007\12\06@192925 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Dec 4, 2007 8:35 PM, Martin McCormick <martinspamspam_OUTdc.cis.okstate.edu> wrote:
>         I just posted another OT message to this list and am
> feeling a little bad about it. Some months ago, there was a
> discussion here about the number of off-topic postings and how
> they were overtaking the primary purpose of this very good list
> which is to provide a forum for the discussion of the Microchip
> line of PIC's and how to program and use them.

Another solution is to try to post a [PIC] or  an [EE] tag after
you feel guilty of posting an [OT] tag message. You may
feel a bit better after that. ;-)

Xiaofan

2007\12\07@183052 by Bryan Bishop

picon face
On Tuesday 04 December 2007, Martin McCormick wrote:
> [OT] Another Good Electronics Discussion List?

Try:
[comp-arch] (lots of spam, it's a USENET interface)
[cores]
[mea-users]
[OpenRISC]

- Bryan

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