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'[OT] Ah yes those were the days (but this is now).'
2000\04\19@082221 by Russell McMahon

picon face
I copied my comments on paper tape punches and switch programmed SC/MPs to a
friend and this was his response to me. No PICs therein but it contains a
good old reminisce (and he's some 10 years younger than me AFAIR). I thought
others may enjoy a similar opportunity or wish to comment on any of this.
Must be about time for another walk-to-school-in-the-snow-uphill-bothways
story or  two. Goflo can tell us about his arcane collection of older iron
etc. I have some core memories here, and an IBM ??? with a "program" read by
the multiple fingers on a motor driven rotating PCB selector and wire spring
memory and ....
Then there's mercury bath memory and CRT phosphor memory (yes memory!) and
...
An vacuum tube character generators that scans  an anode through a stencil
which contains images of the characters to be displayed and ...
And the magic 4004 / 8008 / 1702 / 2708 / 2716 triple supply (wow!!! 2kB
!!!!)
2758 - wow!!! - only ONE supply ...
2114?
..
..
.


Notice the Litton drum computer he had (has?). An amazing beast to us and
seems so archaic but what are rotating magnetic disks going to look like to
our grandchildren? The Litton had even the accumulator on the drum, written
multiple times to allow fast access, and many many heads to allow wide
access.


RM

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Russell,

Yes I fondly remember assembling my first computer (A Cosmac in my case) and
shortly thereafter a D2 kit (officially an MEK6800D2).  The Cosmac system
was very basic compared even with the D2 but did have one fascinating
uirk  - the static memory device (silicon-on-sapphire) was capable of
retaining its contents for weeks without power.  I too could write M6800
machine code from memory (I still remember that BRA = 20H, BNE = 26H, RTS =
39H, etc.).

I also helped a friend build a Scamp evaluation board (which I never warmed
to) and later bought the first 6809 device (for my thesis  - it arrived too
late and was never run  - I still have it) and the first 68000 processor
ever sold in NZ.  The data sheet for the 6809 (which I also still have) was
so preliminary it was partly written in longhand (official Motorola
document!).

I also recall the hand-made paper tape reader (made from two pieces of black
Perspex with a shallow groove for the tape cut into the surface of one using
a Black & Decker router and holes at the right pitch drilled right through
to take Motorola photo-transistors.  It used ambient light (an Equipoise
lamp was best) and the tape was pulled through by hand.  Hooked up to a PIA
on the D2 it worked a treat.

The back of my thesis (dated July 1980) includes the complete listing for a
radix-2 FFT for 8-bit complex data written (using the D2 kit) in association
with Ross McMillan towards the end of 1978.  It could operate on data sets
up to 256 points in length and included ancillary routines for bit-reversal
of data and data smothing (via convolution with the impulse response for a
raised cosine).  It is possibly the earliest FFT ever implemented on a
microprocessor (certainly I have never seen reference to anything earlier).
Regrettably my thesis does not document the execution speed but I recall it
was quite respectable compared with the hardware (hard-wired and bit-slice
microprogrammed) FFT processors we were building at the time.  It
exclusively used self-relative addressing (so was fully relocatable) and
coded entirely by hand (no access to an assembler back then).  It occupied
687 bytes of code plus 256 bytes for the sine and cosine twiddle-factor
tables.  A driver program (not included in my thesis) occupied most of the
remaining 81 bytes of code space  - it read sample data from a home-brew ADC
and outputted the transform via a home-brew DAC for viewing on a scope (the
ADC and DAC were built on Veroboard using CD4000-series CMOS with a
binary-weighted resistive ladder assembled from hand-picked 5% resistors).
I remain very proud of the FFT code it to this day.

The there was my Litton  - now there's a machine for you.  A serial CPU
inplemented in TTL with ALL storage (CPU registers, program code, and data
memory) on separate tracks of a rotating magnetic drum.  It had originally
been used for accounting purposes by the Egg Marketing Board.  Peripherals
included a drum type "teleprinter" (a bit like an IBM golfball typewriter),
a paper-tape puch and reader, and twin floppy drives (8" hard-sectored with
80kb per drive).  It could be programmed using switches and lights on the
fron panel of the processor unit and programs could be saved to or restored
from paper tape using a short boot loader entered that way.  The floppies
could only be used to store data and were driven directly by the users's
application program (no BIOS here mate).  I wrote a 0's and X's program for
it but didn't do much else with it.  By rights I should still have the drum
memory but my wife accidentally (or so she claimed) threw it out.  The same
fate shall not befall my prized ferrite-core memory module !

But that was then (sigh).

Back to the present  - have you had time to peruse the 87LPC768 data sheet,
and have you had time to play with http://surpluslistings.com ?  I don't
recall seeing any commentary from you on either topic.

Regards,

   Ken Mardle

2000\04\19@084732 by Alan B Pearce

face picon face
>An vacuum tube character generators that scans  an anode through a stencil
>which contains images of the characters to be displayed and ...

These are still used on certain microfiche printers that I was servicing in NZ
before I left three years ago.

2000\04\19@114252 by Quitt, Walter

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WOW!

All this of old computing.  It brings back memories of
core cache.  Talk about electro-magnetic tiny little
things.

Wire wrapped interface boards to PDP/11-45s.

Ah, the late 70s, early 80s....

Sniff...

Walt...

{Original Message removed}

2000\04\19@115517 by James Paul

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All,

Somewhere at home, I still have a couple of the
FAMOUS TI MAGNETIC BUBBLE MEMORIES.   Hows that
for nostalgia?


                                 Regards,

                                   Jim



On Wed, 19 April 2000, "Quitt, Walter" wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2000\04\19@155203 by Paul Anderson

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On Thu, 20 Apr 2000, Russell McMahon wrote:

>
> Yes I fondly remember assembling my first computer (A Cosmac in my case) and
> shortly thereafter a D2 kit (officially an MEK6800D2).
>
Does anyone here remember the Homebrew Computer Club?  I couple friends
and myself are trying to resurrect it, and having a little bit of success.
Still have to figure out a good meeting date and post an announcement.

>
> The there was my Litton  - now there's a machine for you.  A serial CPU
> inplemented in TTL with ALL storage (CPU registers, program code, and data
> memory) on separate tracks of a rotating magnetic drum.
>
I know it's a myth, but would that machine have any relationship,
perchance, to the machine mentioned in "The Story of Mel" found in the
jargon file?


---
Paul Anderson - Self-employed Megalomaniac
spam_OUTpaulTakeThisOuTspamgeeky1.ebtech.net
http://zephyr.sellad.on.ca/~paul
"He who controls the green lines controls California!"

2000\04\19@172716 by Don McKenzie

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face
"Quitt, Walter" wrote:
> WOW!
> All this of old computing.  It brings back memories of
> core cache.  Talk about electro-magnetic tiny little
> things.
> Wire wrapped interface boards to PDP/11-45s.
> Ah, the late 70s, early 80s....

We had made the move from 11/40s to Vax-780s, and it was around the time
I had got hold of a Z80 and taught myself some assembly.

I hooked up a driver matrix so I could drive the address and data, plus
the run/bus/user/proc/console/virtual LEDs to emulate the typical run
pattern of the original machine.

I bolted just the front panel into the rack next to one of the 780s,
much to the amusement of the visiting engineers and programmers that
knew the 11/45. They had to ask what in the world we were still using it
for, as most were familiar with our current system, and this thing was
apparently humming away merrily.

When the LEDs went into the walking LED pattern shifting left/right,
etc., they then woke up that they had just been taken for a little ride.
:-)

The DEC boys loved it, and at one stage we were going to set it up at
their Melbourne head office, but this didn't eventuate for some reason.

I still have it here. Wonder if it still works. Was thinking of PIC'ing
it. Ah!!, so little time for fun!

Don McKenzie    .....donKILLspamspam@spam@dontronics.com      http://www.dontronics.com

World's Largest Range of Atmel/AVR and  PICmicro Hardware and  Software.
Simplest-Cheapest Intro to Micros?? http://www.dontronics.com/dt006.html

2000\04\19@174625 by l.allen

picon face
Don Wrote..
>
> I bolted just the front panel into the rack next to one of the 780s,
> much to the amusement of the visiting engineers and programmers that
> knew the 11/45. They had to ask what in the world we were still using it
> for, as most were familiar with our current system, and this thing was
> apparently humming away merrily.
>
> When the LEDs went into the walking LED pattern shifting left/right,
> etc., they then woke up that they had just been taken for a little ride.
> :-)
>

A few years ago we wanted to turn a MAC Plus into a
toaster (symbolic of their nickname as the toasters), for
the dept but the technical problems were a bit too much
(melting plastic doesnt enhance Jam on Toast).

There was also the potential to further inflame the MAC
vs PC war.  Mind you... I think that was our idea.
_____________________________

Lance Allen
Technical Officer
Uni of Auckland
Psych Dept
New Zealand

http://www.psych.auckland.ac.nz

_____________________________

2000\04\19@225143 by John Orhan

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Hi Don,
Whats a VAX-780 and 11/40 device? Just curious........

                                       John

{Original Message removed}

2000\04\19@235419 by John C. Frenzel

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> Hi Don,
> Whats a VAX-780 and 11/40 device? Just curious........
>
>                                         John
VAX
A 3 phase monster that ran unix and supported 40 users via serial terminals.

Also a great platform for playing ROGUE.  Still a great game--see Nethack

They were the beginning of the end for the DEC minicomputers(to be replaced
by PC's)

My first college part time job was sysop on an VAX-750.  Mid 1983  It
smelled like a computer.

PDP 11/40
Single rack mount system.  Expanded from the 11/04 on the low end to the
11/70 at the top.

Used alot in our physics and chem dept's for data gathering and analysis.

Sort of the high end PC of the era.  If you had one of these in your lab,
you were hot.

Ran a multiuser OS, but was really good as a dedicated controller.

The high end could support maybe 20 users, and then you moved up to a VAX.

I think it used a 12 bit word?

JCF

2000\04\20@030213 by Lee Jones

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face
>> Whats a VAX-780 and 11/40 device? Just curious........

> VAX

The 32-bit follow-on to the 16-bit PDP-11 line.  The accronym
VAX stood for Virtual Address eXtended.  VAX systems use a CISC
CPU.  They can run DEC's proprietary VMS operating system or
BSD Unix.  It could also run RSX-11 binaries in emulation mode
as an upgrade path for PDP-11 users.

The first model in the VAX line was the VAX-11/780.  Smaller
versions followed (VAX-11/750, and VAX-11/730) along with a
larger model (VAX-11/785).

The product was hugely successfull and dozens of models from
desktop size to datacenter size were available.  The "-11"
got dropped from the product name.


> PDP 11/40
> Single rack mount system.  Expanded from the 11/04 on the
> low end to the 11/70 at the top.

A middle line version of the 16-bit PDP-11.  Early Unix was
developed on PDP-11s.  DEC offered multiple operating systems
for the hardware; RSX-11 (real time), RT-11, RSTS/E (BASIC),
DSM (DEC Standard MUMPS (== Massachesetts General Hospital
Utility(?) Multiprogramming System)), various Unix, & others.

Some of the hardware instructions lead to certain constructs
is C being favored as they translated into single opcodes
(such as *cp++ where char *cp).

Besides office environments, the PDP-11 line was heavily used
as embedded systems such as process control, avionics, etc.

The PDP-11 hardware went from small box sized units up to
multiple bay racks that would support dozens of users.

> The high end could support maybe 20 users, and then you moved
> up to a VAX.

The PDP-11 line predated the VAX.  Large applications were
hitting the addressing limits of the PDP-11 architechture.
PDP-11 could address 128KB (64KB of instructions plus 64KB
of data space).

Big deal with the VAX was that it could address 4GB.  When
it was introduced, no one actually thought that physical main
memory sizes would exceed that amount so quickly.

I was at the DECUS (DEC user group meeting) when the VAX was
introduced (November 1978 in San Diego as I recall).

As a follow-on to the VAX, DEC designed and sells systems
based on their 64-bit Alpha RISC CPU.


> I think it used a 12 bit word?

That was the PDP-8 line.

                                               Lee Jones

2000\04\20@044608 by Alan B Pearce

face picon face
>I think it used a 12 bit word?

The PDP11 family were all 16 bit words. The earlier PDP8 family used a 12 bit
word.

2000\04\20@061545 by JP.BROWN

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face
More ramblings .......

While we are on the subject of nostalgia, PDP11s, etc. etc. are all very
well but they are not too practical now.  What I would like to see is a
small MSDOS (or LINUX) computer with a non volatile HD and perhaps a built
in basic or C.  Such a thing would be a super tool/toy for us technical
types.  All we see now are super flashy personal organizers with data base
and to do lists etc. etc..  What ever happened to the pocket BASIC
computers that were around a few years ago?, these could be brought up to
date now and made much more powerful for not a lot of money.  Have I found
a hole in the market?.

         -----  John P. Brown      J.P.BrownspamKILLspambradford.ac.uk ----
          \            --- Witty remark goes here ---         /
           --------------------------------------------------

2000\04\20@081129 by Andrew Kunz

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face
Also ran VMS.  When I was in school VMS 4 was just coming out.  We found some
really neat "features" that caused it to temporarily lose it's Orange Book
rating <G>

Andy

2000\04\20@103052 by Arthur

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face
Small Msdos with a LS120 operatimg system and storage dos cad package
i.e.Generic Cadd 3 this could all fit on one disk.  ;-)
Art
{Original Message removed}

2000\04\20@112020 by Quitt, Walter

flavicon
face
Send this guy a PDP-11 assembly language book....

-----Original Message-----
From: John Orhan [.....JOrhanKILLspamspam.....EDM.COM.AU]
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 7:54 PM
To: EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [OT] Ah yes those were the days (but this is now)...


Hi Don,
Whats a VAX-780 and 11/40 device? Just curious........

                                       John

-----Original Message-----
From: Don McKenzie [donspamspam_OUTDONTRONICS.COM]
Sent: Thursday, 20 April 2000 7:25
To: @spam@PICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [OT] Ah yes those were the days (but this is now)...


"Quitt, Walter" wrote:
> WOW!
> All this of old computing.  It brings back memories of
> core cache.  Talk about electro-magnetic tiny little
> things.
> Wire wrapped interface boards to PDP/11-45s.
> Ah, the late 70s, early 80s....

We had made the move from 11/40s to Vax-780s, and it was around the time
I had got hold of a Z80 and taught myself some assembly.

I hooked up a driver matrix so I could drive the address and data, plus
the run/bus/user/proc/console/virtual LEDs to emulate the typical run
pattern of the original machine.

I bolted just the front panel into the rack next to one of the 780s,
much to the amusement of the visiting engineers and programmers that
knew the 11/45. They had to ask what in the world we were still using it
for, as most were familiar with our current system, and this thing was
apparently humming away merrily.

When the LEDs went into the walking LED pattern shifting left/right,
etc., they then woke up that they had just been taken for a little ride.
:-)

The DEC boys loved it, and at one stage we were going to set it up at
their Melbourne head office, but this didn't eventuate for some reason.

I still have it here. Wonder if it still works. Was thinking of PIC'ing
it. Ah!!, so little time for fun!

Don McKenzie    KILLspamdonKILLspamspamdontronics.com      http://www.dontronics.com

World's Largest Range of Atmel/AVR and  PICmicro Hardware and  Software.
Simplest-Cheapest Intro to Micros?? http://www.dontronics.com/dt006.html

2000\04\20@112434 by Quitt, Walter

flavicon
face
VAX: VirtuAl eXtenstion to the PDP-11
Later versions where actual microprocessors you could buy.
I guess the DEC Alphas replaced those.
It was a sad day a few years ago when I heard the PDP-11
instruction set was obsoleted.  I liked it.

{Original Message removed}

2000\04\20@114334 by Quitt, Walter

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When I went to school there was a seperate course for PDP-11 assembly
language, another was then already using Z-80s (ooh, aah) with HP emulators.
I LOVED it!

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan B Pearce [RemoveMEA.B.PearceTakeThisOuTspamRL.AC.UK]
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2000 1:43 AM
To: spamBeGonePICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [OT] Ah yes those were the days (but this is now)...


>I think it used a 12 bit word?

The PDP11 family were all 16 bit words. The earlier PDP8 family used a 12
bit
word.

2000\04\20@124007 by jamesnewton

face picon face
Sign me up for the Homebrew Computer club... I always wanted to do that and
tried a few experiments when I was younger.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
TakeThisOuTjamesnewtonEraseMEspamspam_OUTpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

2000\04\20@132443 by jamesnewton

face picon face
I'd like to see (own) a wearable computer
http://techref.massmind.org/wearable
with a HUD like the Private Eye
http://wearables.www.media.mit.edu/projects/wearables/display.html
and a nice, small keyboard
web.mit.edu/invent/www/inventorsI-Q/levypg.html
with an "IO" board like Dan's Pocket Test Bench
http://www.sni.net/~oricom/
(come on Dan, make the WCT!)
http://www.sni.net/~oricom/projects.htm
sewn into a glove
http://www.media.mit.edu/~rehmi/cloth/
with the signals analyzed by a remembrance agent
http://rhodes.http://www.media.mit.edu/people/rhodes/RA/
and a packet radio
http://www.tapr.org/
interface to the internet and especially an updateable knowledge base
http://techref.massmind.org/idea/websites
and a group of like minded people <GRIN>
http://www.piclist.com


---
James Newton RemoveMEjamesnewtonspamTakeThisOuTgeocities.com 1-619-652-0593
http://techref.massmind.org
All the engineering secrets worth knowing

{Original Message removed}

2000\04\20@133706 by Mark Willis

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Man, same here!

To modernize things a bit, see these links on reconfigurable processors
implemented on FPGA's:

http://web.mit.edu/bunnie/www/xi/rhp4k.html
http://opencores.itvc.com/mission.shtml

These FPGA's that you load a core program into then simulate being a
<whatever> machine - you could do a PIC on an FPGA, and fix silicon bugs
at will...  Want a PIC with a taller stack?  I've thought on that 'un
<G>

 Mark

James Newton wrote:
> Sign me up for the Homebrew Computer club... I always wanted to do that and
> tried a few experiments when I was younger.
>
> ---
> James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
> jamesnewtonEraseMEspam.....piclist.com 1-619-652-0593
> PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org
>
> {Original Message removed}

2000\04\20@140702 by Thomas McGahee

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I was a member of the Homebrew Computer Club from its
beginning. A wonderful time to be a geek!

Fr. Tom McGahee

{Original Message removed}

2000\04\20@142122 by Mark Willis

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Other goodies, folks:

It does work to take a regular laptop and run the VGA out to a VGA HUD
like the Private Eye (through a VGA-NTSC converter if needed), though
that's perhaps a lot heavier than the usual wearable, it IS a lot
cheaper.

Wearable Computers list signup is at <EraseMEwear-hard-requestspamhaven.org>

http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/pc110.html (Nice little tiny machine.  Boot
off internal 4Mb Flash or plugged-in CF, and have two stacked PCMCIA
type 2 slots, 4 to 20Mb RAM, 486sx33.)

Rehmi's Rotoscope display, http://www.media.mit.edu/~rehmi/rotoscope/ -
FPGA would be good here, or a Scenix or very fast PIC perhaps.  I'm
thinking on how to do that for sane numbers - there's a color VGA HUD
display coming out but as yet it's unavailable, though if all goes well
it'll be $100ish some day, see
http://www.cc.gatech.edu/fac/Thad.Starner/ for Thad wearing a pair
<Drool!>  http://www.microopticalcorp.com/.

http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/hp200lx.html - the HP200LX is a neat little
80c186 at ~16MHz machine, can go to 96Mb RAM (for some real $$) - IR + 1
8450 serial onboard, can also doubleclock the machine to ~32MHz.  CGA
Mono display, works but not VGA;  One PCMCIA type II slot, only for
lower current PC Cards, but they include LAN cards, some 56k modems, and
certainly Flash cards and CF cards in adapters.  Drop it in a dock and
that'd make a smaller wearable.  Works to text edit and slow for
compiles, it'll run weeks off a pair of NiMH rechargeables.

See also the Morphy One at http://www.morphyone.org/ - Update to 486 of
the HP200LX, CGA screen only though, 10-20 hours off a pait of AA NiMH's
isn't half bad IMO!  If only it were VGA...

 Mark

James Newton wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2000\04\20@142725 by Dan Michaels

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John P. Brown wrote:
....
What I would like to see is a
>small MSDOS (or LINUX) computer with a non volatile HD and perhaps a built
>in basic or C.  Such a thing would be a super tool/toy for us technical
>types.  All we see now are super flashy personal organizers with data base
>and to do lists etc. etc..  What ever happened to the pocket BASIC
>computers that were around a few years ago?, these could be brought up to
>date now and made much more powerful for not a lot of money.
....
Have I found
>a hole in the market?.

[cringing a little at bringing this up] I wonder whether the WinCE
PDAs from Compaq, Casio, etc, can be run in MS-DOS mode. Anyone know?

Also, usoft has a new push just this week with their new "Pocket
PC", and "plan" (of course) to capture 40% (???!!!) of the Palm
market in 2-3 years. Wonder if these will do DOS ?? [no, I don't
work for usoft - I just play B. Gates on the soaps].

Whew, it's "Pocket" everything nowadays.
====================

Jim Newton wrote:
>I'd like to see (own) a wearable computer
...
> with a HUD like the Private Eye
...
> and a nice, small keyboard
...
> with an "IO" board like Dan's Pocket Test Bench
>http://www.sni.net/~oricom/
> (come on Dan, make the WCT!)
>http://www.sni.net/~oricom/projects.htm
> sewn into a glove
...
> with the signals analyzed by a remembrance agent
....
> and a packet radio
...
> interface to the internet and especially an updateable knowledge base
....
> and a group of like minded people <GRIN>
....

Several things:

1. Latest issue of Pop Mechanics has an article on watches
that do all kinds of techie things - GPS, "watch PC", etc.
Mostly Japanese. So anyday now, Japan will have your little
baby, Jim. [now don't take that the wrong way!].

2. Regarding the WST [World's Smallest (Cheapest) Testbench]
project, I've about finished the other 3 projects I told you
about last month, and will take another look at the feasibility
of it.

3. Since I *do* wish to make the WST as compatible as possible
with various shareware products (ie, P16PRO, Tait, etc), I've
been waiting for the smoke to clear in the "free ICD" arena.
It's about time to look at updates from people who built those.

best regards,
- Dan Michaels
Oricom Technologies
http://www.sni.net/~oricom
==========================

2000\04\20@143144 by Dan Michaels

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Mark wrote:
....
>To modernize things a bit, see these links on reconfigurable processors
>implemented on FPGA's:
>
>http://web.mit.edu/bunnie/www/xi/rhp4k.html
>http://opencores.itvc.com/mission.shtml
>
>These FPGA's that you load a core program into then simulate being a
><whatever> machine - you could do a PIC on an FPGA, and fix silicon bugs
>at will...  Want a PIC with a taller stack?  I've thought on that 'un
><G>
>

Also, the Xtensa [though not open]:    http://www.tensilica.com/home.html

2000\04\20@144614 by Arthur

flavicon
face
Yes Dos is a must but it must also play mp3's :)
    and program pic's while doing so.
Art
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Michaels <RemoveMEoricomspam_OUTspamKILLspamLYNX.SNI.NET>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2000 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Ah yes those were the days (but this is now)...


> John P. Brown wrote:
> ....
>  What I would like to see is a
> >small MSDOS (or LINUX) computer with a non volatile HD and perhaps a
built
> >in basic or C.  Such a thing would be a super tool/toy for us technical
> >types.  All we see now are super flashy personal organizers with data
base
{Quote hidden}

2000\04\20@161349 by Clyde Smith-Stubbs

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On Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 10:52:22PM -0500, John C. Frenzel wrote:
> PDP 11/40
> I think it used a 12 bit word?

Bzzzt! The PDP-11 uses a 16 bit word, and has a very nice orthogonal
intstruction set. It was the model for the Motorola 68000 and others, and
has probably been DEC's most influential contribution to processor design.

The 12 bit word you were thinking of was the PDP-8, which was a popular
DEC mini before the PDP-11 came along. A PIC compares quite closely with
a PDP-8, actually, only the PIC is faster.

--
Clyde Smith-Stubbs               |            HI-TECH Software
Email: EraseMEclydespamspamspamBeGonehtsoft.com          |          Phone            Fax
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------
HI-TECH C: compiling the real world.

2000\04\20@165553 by Harold M Hallikainen

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On Thu, 20 Apr 2000 08:40:21 -0700 "Quitt, Walter" <wquittSTOPspamspamspam_OUTMICROJOIN.COM>
writes:
> When I went to school there was a seperate course for PDP-11 assembly
> language, another was then already using Z-80s (ooh, aah) with HP
> emulators.
> I LOVED it!
>

       My first teaching job was teaching PDP-8 assembly. At the end of the
semester we did some LSI-11. I always thought the instruction set for the
PDP (LSI) 11 was very clever, especially the way they got immediate
addressing.

Harold



FCC Rules Online at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules
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2000\04\20@172841 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
In the mid-to-late 70s and early 80s, the PDP-11 architecture was so
well revered that nearly every new micro was claiming "PDP11-like
instruction set", even those who REALLY need to stretch to make such
a claim (in particular, I remember reading a 6502 datasheet that made
that claim.)

I've been a bit surprised that the exact pdp11 instruction format has
not shown up in some embedded controller in recent times.  Presumably
it is relatively "small" by todays standard, and the reasons that it
didn't propgate to modern processors (mostly address space issues, I
think) wouldn't be a problem in the embedded world.

BillW

2000\04\20@185029 by Don McKenzie
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"Quitt, Walter" wrote:
>
> Send this guy a PDP-11 assembly language book....
>
> {Original Message removed}

2000\04\20@190320 by Mark Walsh

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>
> I was a member of the Homebrew Computer Club from its
> beginning. A wonderful time to be a geek!
>
> Fr. Tom McGahee
>
>

I was on the road a lot so I didn't get to as many meetings as I would have
liked, but it was great fun.

There used to be the various groups fighting over the merits of the 8080 vs
6800 and Jobs and Woz floating around with their own little following of
Apple 1 supporters.  Everyone was bad mouthing Bill Gates even 25 years ago
and thinking he was crazy to think there was money to be made in software.

Now you find the geeks on the Pic-list fighting over the merits of ASM vs C
and PIC vs AVR.  They are still bad mouthing Basic and Bill Gates.  The
Homebrew Computer Club still meets.  We've just moved the venue on-line and
changed the name.

Anytime is a great time to be a geek.

Mark Walsh

2000\04\20@191804 by Quitt, Walter

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We were putting Alphas into slightly modified PC
cases a few years ago.  It was kinda weird to see
such a hot rod in an $18 case!  We bought the Alpha
boards in bulk from DEC without telling them what
we were doing.  The DEC rep flipped when he found
out.  But, hey we were OEMs so what should they care?

There are plenty of dams controlled by those
processors now.  I think there are several on
the other side of the Pacific too.

What can you say?  It meet the requirement of COTS.

I still smile and sleep well....-W

{Original Message removed}

2000\04\21@131748 by Dale Botkin

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On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Don McKenzie wrote:

> What can you see on the front of an Alpha? A single Green LED. I always
> said, when I can see the address and data LEDs flashing, I can sense the
> machine running. I know when it's sick, or just plain weary. These were
> computers that had a real heart and soul. Not at all like the toys of
> today.

Amen! Tell it, Brother Don!

My first real experience was as a field engineer servicing IBM 2040's
(System 360/40).  Front panel lights - inscndescent! - and switches for
everything.  After a while you could walk in, watch the front panel, and
recognize the job running.  There was a recognizbale pattern to a disk
retry that would tell me if I'd be in that night replacing a head...

Dale
---
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny ..."
               -- Isaac Asimov

2000\04\21@132821 by Jeffrey D Spears

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My first computer was (and still is) my dads KIM-1. It may have
been the first single-board micro--if I recall correctly. It was
based on the 6502 and had a mean game of "Hunt the Wumpus" and
"Lunar Lander" available. If I was playing with the KIM-1 in
1978, then I would have been twelve years old--which sounds
about right.

The KIM-1 still lives in a box somewhere in my dads shop. Someday
it will be mounted suitably and displayed. Will have to come up
with some sort of routine for it to run just to show it is alive.

Back while playing with the KIM, I did not know what the word
"assembler" meant. However, I still remember some of those opcodes:
A9, A5 -- different modes of "Load Accumulator" and 89 and 85,
"store accumulator" comes to mind.

ok..jef

On Thu, 20 Apr 2000, Don McKenzie wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Jeffrey D. Spears
University of Michigan
College of Engineering

``Double-E, can't spell gEEk without it!''
                       -Captain Gerald M. Bloomfield II, USMC
                        (my brother)

2000\04\21@222301 by Jeffrey D Spears

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See, thats what I was saying a few weeks ago! FPGA's offer nearly
complete digitial development platform. It also requires some sort
of boot-load device, be it a serial PROM or PIC. Use the PIC to load
the FPGA hex file, then use it to fiddle pins!

ok..jef

On Thu, 20 Apr 2000, Mark Willis wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}

2000\04\22@010523 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
> These FPGA's that you load a core program into then simulate being a
> <whatever> machine - you could do a PIC on an FPGA, and fix silicon bugs
> at will...  Want a PIC with a taller stack?

Of course...

Ever look at the power consumption of one of those FPGA chips?  No on-chip
oscillator, either.  You CAN make something that behaves like a PIC, more
or less in the same sense that your PC running MPLAB behaves like a PIC.

BillW

2000\04\22@041336 by Mark Willis

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William Chops Westfield wrote:
> > These FPGA's that you load a core program into then simulate being a
> > <whatever> machine - you could do a PIC on an FPGA, and fix silicon bugs
> > at will...  Want a PIC with a taller stack?
>
> Of course...
>
> Ever look at the power consumption of one of those FPGA chips?  No on-chip
> oscillator, either.  You CAN make something that behaves like a PIC, more
> or less in the same sense that your PC running MPLAB behaves like a PIC.
>
> BillW

Sure - I'm lucky usually in that much of what I do's all AC powered;
for one coming project, a reconfigurable processor might be great.  I'd
just use a can oscillator on that, if so - Still all up in the air
(durnit!), well, gives me an excuse to keep looking into options.

 Mark

2000\04\24@095541 by M. Adam Davis

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The difficulty here is that you are asking for one thing that you don't write
about below:

Inexpensive.

The real problem here is you want a geek toy that is cheap.  There aren't enough
geeks in the world to buy such items in quantity and bring the price down.

One item I have purchased along those lines in the TI-89 calculator.  It has 2MB
flash, and a bit of static memory (256k? maybe more...).  It runs on a 68k
processor at 10MHz, and that's about it.  TI's proprietary OS has a basic
interpreter built in, but they have also included the ability to run assembly
programs on the calc.  The link port enables you to develop programs on the PC
(cross compiled C, for instance) which you can run on the calc.

What you really end up needing is a (succesful) consumer item which can be
hacked into what you want.

-Adam

"JP.BROWN" wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2000\04\24@104814 by Dan Michaels

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>"JP.BROWN" wrote:
...
What I would like to see is a
>> small MSDOS (or LINUX) computer with a non volatile HD and perhaps a built
>> in basic or C.  Such a thing would be a super tool/toy for us technical
>> types.  All we see now are super flashy personal organizers with data base
>> and to do lists etc. etc..  What ever happened to the pocket BASIC
>> computers that were around a few years ago?, these could be brought up to
>> date now and made much more powerful for not a lot of money.  Have I found
>> a hole in the market?.

Adam Davis wrote:
....
>The real problem here is you want a geek toy that is cheap.  There aren't
enough
>geeks in the world to buy such items in quantity and bring the price down.
>
>One item I have purchased along those lines in the TI-89 calculator.  It
has 2MB
>flash, and a bit of static memory (256k? maybe more...).  It runs on a 68k
>processor at 10MHz, and that's about it.  TI's proprietary OS has a basic
.....
>

Geeee, JP's machine sounds remarkably like the original IBM
PC I bought back in 1981. Simple machine, and had Basic built-in.

I think you guys should watch development of the new WinCE handhelds,
re-launched as "Pocket PCs" for century 2000. These guys [Compaq,
Casio, HP, etc] have perceived the huge market Palm is mining and
are pushing towards providing "full-function" PCs in the same tiny
footprint [ie, palmprint], rather than concentrating mainly on
organizer capabilities. 131 Mhz cpu, 16 Mhz RAM, color LCD, USB,
etc. This may cause some movement in the Palm market too, as the
other guys move in.

Myself, I am still trying to determine if the WinCE machines can
run in MS-DOS mode. Anyone got one? Anyone know this?

regards,
- Dan Michaels
===============

2000\04\24@105245 by Dan Michaels

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>"JP.BROWN" wrote:
>>
>> More ramblings .......
>>
>> While we are on the subject of nostalgia, PDP11s, etc. etc. are all very
>> well but they are not too practical now.  What I would like to see is a
>> small MSDOS (or LINUX) computer with a non volatile HD and perhaps a built
>> in basic or C.  Such a thing would be a super tool/toy for us technical
>> types.  All we see now are super flashy personal organizers with data base


Hey, I just discovered a link related to implementing Linux on a WinCE
device [possibly someone else posted it previously, and I am just zoning
out ...]:

http://www.linuxce.org/

2000\04\24@111214 by andy howard

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---- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Michaels" <@spam@oricom@spam@spamspam_OUTLYNX.SNI.NET>
To: <spamBeGonePICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 03:46
Subject: Re: [OT] Ah yes those were the days (but this is now)...




{Quote hidden}

In the manual for my Cassiopeia 105 it says that it does not run any dos
programs.

Since people have ported Linux to these devices I suppose you could do
the same with DOS, but it hardly seems worth the effort. An EPOC machine
might be worth considering as an alternative if you don't like CE
though.















.

2000\04\24@112216 by al

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hello,

i would like to know if there's somebody using linux for pic development? i
currently work with a pic16f877 controller and use the mplab and icd to
program it (this is so far the only reason still using windows).
i read about the boot loader software this seems a good start but i'm
wondering if someone managed to use the icd-module under linux to programm pic
16f87x devices (not running dosemu, wine or alike)??

thx and kind regards
andreas

> {Original Message removed}

2000\04\24@113323 by Mark Willis

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andy howard wrote:
{Quote hidden}

(If this is a repeat on these machines, sorry - A *lot* of posts aren't
getting outbound here, seemingly.  Finally found a good 4Gb IBM HDD for
the new e-mail machine, so I'll be using that soon...)

I still find the HP200LX here a good option.  80c186-16 upgradable to 32
MHz, up to 220 Mb on the Flash PCMCIA slot, 1Mb or more RAM (upgradable
to 96Mb if you have the bucks.)  CGA Mono screen, usable but not
perfect.  2 - 3 weeks off a pair of AA batteries, can use NiCad's or
NiMH's.  Dos 5 onboard, in ROM.  Costs $159 for an 8Mb RAM upgrade
installed - that lets you have a 7Mb RamDisk;  4Mb add-on upgrade is
cheaper, you can just use a SRAM or Flash card though.  IR and Serial
ports off the machine - you can put some low-current NICs or modems in
the PCMCIA type II slot, pretty large helpful list.  Development machine
in your pocket <G>

The IBM PC110's another option - only 90 minute battery life though.
486sx33, overclockable to sx40;  4 to 20Mb RAM, a CF slot and two PCMCIA
type II slots.  Heavier to carry than the LX.  Comes with JDos 7, you
can learn to touch type without the Japanese keyboard drivers pretty
well.

On the same note - I want a programmer that'll do 'F84's and/or 'F877's
(just flash parts) off battery power, under Dos on the HP200LX, for a
project - Need to be able to backpack the whole setup.  Dos only, that,
I'll keep thinking/looking =)

2000\04\24@120556 by Dan Michaels

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Andy Howard wrote:
>In the manual for my Cassiopeia 105 it says that it does not run any dos
>programs.
>
>Since people have ported Linux to these devices I suppose you could do
>the same with DOS, but it hardly seems worth the effort. An EPOC machine
>might be worth considering as an alternative if you don't like CE
>though.

Andy, thanks for the info on the 105. I've checked their websites but
couldn't find mention of DOS. Also, at least checkout the other link
I gave - http://www.linuxce.org.

Also, what is EPOC? [he asked, showing his iggornance]. Got a link?
===============

Mark Willis wrote:
....
>I still find the HP200LX here a good option.  80c186-16 upgradable to 32
>MHz, up to 220 Mb on the Flash PCMCIA slot, 1Mb or more RAM (upgradable
>to 96Mb if you have the bucks.)  CGA Mono screen, usable but not
>perfect.  2 - 3 weeks off a pair of AA batteries, can use NiCad's or
>NiMH's.  Dos 5 onboard, in ROM.  Costs $159 for an 8Mb RAM upgrade
.....
>On the same note - I want a programmer that'll do 'F84's and/or 'F877's
>(just flash parts) off battery power, under Dos on the HP200LX, for a
>project - Need to be able to backpack the whole setup.  Dos only, that,
>I'll keep thinking/looking =)
>

Ynfortumately, those user interfaces [ie, NOT] on the LX and Palm-type
machines really leave something to be desired - for serious dev work.
However, my 8 YO niece really loved the keys on the LX - tiny fingers.

Also, sounds like you want to look at the simple serial port
programmers for use on your backpacking trips.

2000\04\24@122114 by Mark Willis

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Dan Michaels wrote:
<snipped>
{Quote hidden}

You can get an HP1000cx (Dos-only version of the LX) if you can find
one, or just drop the LX to Dos (can even edit the LX's autoexec.bat to
prevent ever loading the PDA interface;  I'm looking for a 1000cx for
this exact purpose!)  I find the LX far faster than the Palm Pro here
for text entry that I can carry always, YMMV.  It works for me, but then
I'm always swapping info from one machine to another, etc., admittedly a
desktop keyboard's far easier to use - and far harder to carry in a
pocket.

 Mark

2000\04\24@122954 by andy howard

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> Andy Howard wrote:
> >In the manual for my Cassiopeia 105 it says that it does not run any
dos
> >programs.
> >
> >Since people have ported Linux to these devices I suppose you could
do
> >the same with DOS, but it hardly seems worth the effort. An EPOC
machine
> >might be worth considering as an alternative if you don't like CE
> >though.
>
> Andy, thanks for the info on the 105. I've checked their websites but
> couldn't find mention of DOS. Also, at least checkout the other link
> I gave - http://www.linuxce.org.
>
> Also, what is EPOC? [he asked, showing his iggornance]. Got a link?


EPOC is a 32bit OS developed by PSION for their PDAs but now used by
several manufacturers.

Psion are quite a big player in the handheld/PDA market here in Europe,
making handheld organisers since the early 80's, and they also own a
major modem manufacturing arm.

They have also formed a number of interesting alliances with mobile
telecoms companies to develop handheld mobile datacom devices recently.


Sorry, I don't have any links to hand on this machine. A search for EPOC
or Psion will find info on their handhelds. (I've had one of each the
last 4 generations of these. Great PDAs, OK as general-purpose handheld
devices too) there's several thousand applications available for them
including bucketsful of good quality shareware.

Their telecom alliance is called Symbian if you want to do a search for
them.
















.

2000\04\24@131949 by Dan Michaels

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Mark Willis wrote:
....
>>
>> Also, sounds like you want to look at the simple serial port
>> programmers for use on your backpacking trips.
>
>You can get an HP1000cx (Dos-only version of the LX) if you can find
>one, or just drop the LX to Dos (can even edit the LX's autoexec.bat to
>prevent ever loading the PDA interface;  I'm looking for a 1000cx for
>this exact purpose!)  I find the LX far faster than the Palm Pro here
>for text entry that I can carry always, YMMV.  It works for me, but then
>I'm always swapping info from one machine to another, etc., admittedly a
>desktop keyboard's far easier to use - and far harder to carry in a
>pocket.
>

Maybe check eBay for these things. Also, someone now has a $100
folding keyboard - for PDAs, I think.

2000\04\24@132743 by M. Adam Davis

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The devices that run WINce are typically not 80xx(x) machines.  Some use ARM,
others SHARC, etc.  WINce itself does not run on top of a DOS as the win(95/98)
OS does.

You could, if you like, recompile a generic DOS for a WINce machine, as the
linux folks have done for Linux.

-Adam

Dan Michaels wrote:
> Myself, I am still trying to determine if the WinCE machines can
> run in MS-DOS mode. Anyone got one? Anyone know this?
>
> regards,
> - Dan Michaels
> ===============

2000\04\24@152856 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
   > What ever happened to the pocket BASIC computers that were
   > around a few years ago?, these could be brought up to date now
   > and made much more powerful for not a lot of money.

Well, there's no shortage of palmtop PCs with impressive lists of
features.  They're DIFFERENT though.  A couple years ago I won a MIPS
based WINCE1.0 based palmtop (A philip Velo 1) at a trade show.  The
technology is quite impressive, but the built in software was like
spreadsheet, web browser, word processor.  I looked into what it would
take to WRITE software for it - just trivial little things like I would
have used basic for on a desktop PC.  There was NOTHING I could find
short of $$$ "Visual C++ development system for windowsce (running on
W95.)"  I was not impressed.  On top of that, there was a lot of "churn"
in the technology.  WinCE 1.0 was dead, WinCE 2 would require
significant HW upgrades, and the particual platform I had had guess
wrong about which expansion card format would survive (It used intel's
"miniature card" format - try to find those now!)

Now, my wife wants a Palm (the company) computer for "knitting support",
and I've been looking at what's available for it (having been "burnt
once".)  Frankly, I'm REALLY impressed.  There's a GCC compiler and
development system, all downloadable for free.  There's an emulator that
runs under windows or MacOS.  There are special rom images (for the
emulator) that include debugging support.  Most of the tools run under
windows, MacOS, OR unix.  There's a lot more freeware and shareware (as
might be expected!)  Here is a company that has remembered what it takes
to get new technology "bootstrapped", rather than thinking that they
have all the answers.  It's nice to see.  Palms start at about $149...
(who will be the first person to create a PIC development system that
runs on a Palm?)

(Sure, I'd like to have a "linux cube" in a snazzy 5x5x5 inch case, and
it's pretty easilly within the realm of "possible."  But like Adam said,
it's too far from commodity to be attractive price-wise.  Especially
since it has to compete with generation(s)-old "bargin" systems rather
than current premium-priced "state-of-the-art" systems.)

BillW

2000\04\24@154330 by goflo

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Hmmm. My TI89, purchased in Aug 98, awaits the SDK  for applications
developers, available "in a few weeks" - 21 months later still
vaporware.

Once tried to interest TI in marketing the TI-74 as a robust, portable
programmable controller/datalogger, 8K pgm/data expandable, low-pwr,
user-friendly BASIC interface, LCD display, QWERTY alpha & numeric entry
keypad, & so on, for ~$100 ...

They got a good laugh out of it - Wonder how many STAMPs and related
paraphenalia have been sold since?

Regards, Jack

M. Adam Davis wrote:
> ...
> One item I have purchased along those lines in the TI-89 calculator.  It has 2MB
> flash, and a bit of static memory (256k? maybe more...).  It runs on a 68k
> processor at 10MHz, and that's about it.  TI's proprietary OS has a basic
> interpreter built in, but they have also included the ability to run assembly
> programs on the calc.  The link port enables you to develop programs on the PC
> (cross compiled C, for instance) which you can run on the calc.

2000\04\24@162357 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
   Myself, I am still trying to determine if the WinCE machines can
   run in MS-DOS mode. Anyone got one? Anyone know this?

WinCE runs on assorted NON-intel processors that DOS has NEVER run on,
as far as I know...  See my previous rant about the (lack of)
development environments and tools for WinCE.  (Hmm.  Anyone know of a
project similar to FreeDOS for a PORTABLE DOS-compatible set of tools?
The issues that made the original DOS be coded in ASM aren't so relevant
any more, I would think.)

I recall hearing that embedded linux has run on Palms.

BillW

2000\04\24@163614 by James Paul

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All,

I used to work at TI and I have a TI-74 BASICALC calculator as
well as a software development system for ssame. If anyone has
any questions about it, let me know.  I will try to answer them
if possible.  I have been considering building my own
peripherals using the "DOCKBUS" interface on tha back.
Using PIC's of course, and possibly using the HD I/F that was
on the list a couple of weeks ago, to read and write to a hard
drive, or at least read from a CD-ROM drive.  If anyone else
has any ideas or suggestions along this line, I'd like to hear
them.


                                       Regards,

                                         Jim
On Mon, 24 April 2000, TakeThisOuTgofloKILLspamspamspamPACBELL.NET wrote:

{Quote hidden}

.....jimspamRemoveMEjpes.com

2000\04\24@170529 by Dan Michaels

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BillW wrote:
>    Myself, I am still trying to determine if the WinCE machines can
>    run in MS-DOS mode. Anyone got one? Anyone know this?
>
>WinCE runs on assorted NON-intel processors that DOS has NEVER run on,
>as far as I know...  See my previous rant about the (lack of)
>development environments and tools for WinCE.  (Hmm.  Anyone know of a
>project similar to FreeDOS for a PORTABLE DOS-compatible set of tools?
>The issues that made the original DOS be coded in ASM aren't so relevant
>any more, I would think.)
>
>I recall hearing that embedded linux has run on Palms.
>

Guess I'm missing something. Like why didn't one of those guys with
the WinCE pads/PDAs stick "Intel Inside"? Guess someone in marketing
finally decided to break the chain back to the 4004.

Also, check out linux on:

Palm  -  http://www.uclinux.org/
iBook -  http://www.linuxppc.org/hardware/
Psion -  http://www.calcaria.net/
WinCE -  http://www.linuxce.org/

2000\04\24@172414 by andy howard

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Michaels" <RemoveMEoricomspamspamBeGoneLYNX.SNI.NET>
To: <spamBeGonePICLIST@spam@spamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 10:04
Subject: Re: [OT] Ah yes those were the days (but this is now)...


> BillW wrote:
> >    Myself, I am still trying to determine if the WinCE machines can
> >    run in MS-DOS mode. Anyone got one? Anyone know this?
> >
> >WinCE runs on assorted NON-intel processors that DOS has NEVER run
on,
> >as far as I know...  See my previous rant about the (lack of)
> >development environments and tools for WinCE.  (Hmm.  Anyone know of
a
> >project similar to FreeDOS for a PORTABLE DOS-compatible set of
tools?
> >The issues that made the original DOS be coded in ASM aren't so
relevant
> >any more, I would think.)
> >
> >I recall hearing that embedded linux has run on Palms.
> >
>
> Guess I'm missing something. Like why didn't one of those guys with
> the WinCE pads/PDAs stick "Intel Inside"? Guess someone in marketing
> finally decided to break the chain back to the 4004.


If they had Intel Inside the battery would be bigger than the PDA!

2000\04\25@121356 by Russell McMahon

picon face
Toshiba Libretto !
!!
!!!!
Marvellous toy.
Size of video cassette.
Mine is P75/16 MB RAM , 750 MB HDD, WIN95
NOT a CE machine.
They come higher and lower specd (started at 486?).
Sadly, battery life is very poor even oin Lithium Ion.

Secoind hand ones should be cheapish..


     Russell McMahon
_____________________________

>From other worlds - http://www.easttimor.com
                               http://www.sudan.com

What can one man* do?
Help the hungry at no cost to yourself!
at  http://www.thehungersite.com/

(* - or woman, child or internet enabled intelligent entity :-))


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Willis <TakeThisOuTmwillisspamspamFOXINTERNET.NET>
>
>On the same note - I want a programmer that'll do 'F84's and/or 'F877's
>(just flash parts) off battery power, under Dos on the HP200LX, for a
>project - Need to be able to backpack the whole setup.  Dos only, that,
>I'll keep thinking/looking =)
>

2000\04\25@121515 by Mark Willis

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Dan Michaels wrote:
> Mark Willis wrote:
> ....
> Maybe check eBay for these things. Also, someone now has a $100
> folding keyboard - for PDAs, I think.

Sure - eBay has had the 200LX's for $250 - $350 pretty regularly;
1000cx's only pop up "few & far between",

I want the info backed up to the home LAN, so I'll keep pushing the data
onto the LAN, frankly =)  I'd hate to lose all my work if the 200LX got
broken.  The keyboard is alternately do-able with a Newton keyboard, but
if I gotta carry something large around, I'll carry a higher powered
machine around (T200CS or a PC110 with Dauphin keyboard or a regular
laptop) - I have "many" options here <G>

Dan Michaels wrote:
> Myself, I am still trying to determine if the WinCE machines can
> run in MS-DOS mode. Anyone got one? Anyone know this?
>
> regards,
> - Dan Michaels

Reminds me;  Someone's working on a "Dos box" simulator program for the
WinCE machines IIRC;  I'd look around for that, I'm pretty sure it's
called something like XTCE, I think I saw this on the HPLX newsgroups or
mailing list - I'll see if I can snag a reference, betcha a web search
would find you something.

Andy Howard wrote:
<snipped>
> If they had Intel Inside the battery would be bigger than the PDA!

Not so if it's an 80c188 or -86 - Sure correct if it was a 386+, of
course!  It's not tough to stick TC++ on the LX here (on a large enough
flash card), compile times are a little slow but whaddya want off
batteries?  Myself, I want 20+ hours of solid use <G>

 Mark

2000\04\25@130507 by Alan B Pearce

face picon face
>Toshiba Libretto !

>Marvellous toy.

I have been very impressed with one of these that a colleague uses.
It has been impressive enough that given the opportunity I would get one of
these rather than try and get a laptop with a full A4 size display.

2000\04\25@153252 by wzab

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On Tue, Apr 25, 2000 at 02:12:34PM +1200, Russell McMahon wrote:
> Toshiba Libretto !
> !!
> !!!!
> Marvellous toy.
> Size of video cassette.
> Mine is P75/16 MB RAM , 750 MB HDD, WIN95
> NOT a CE machine.
> They come higher and lower specd (started at 486?).
> Sadly, battery life is very poor even oin Lithium Ion.
>
> Secoind hand ones should be cheapish..

Any experiences with running Linux on it?
--
                       Wojciech Zabolotny
                       http://www.ise.pw.edu.pl/~wzab

http://www.verilog.net  Get your FREE Verilog simulators/compilers

2000\04\26@010751 by Dan Michaels

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Mark Willis wrote:
.......
>Sure - eBay has had the 200LX's for $250 - $350 pretty regularly;
>1000cx's only pop up "few & far between",
..........
>Andy Howard wrote:
><snipped>
>> If they had Intel Inside the battery would be bigger than the PDA!
..........
Not so if it's an 80c188 or -86 - Sure correct if it was a 386+, of
>course!  It's not tough to stick TC++ on the LX here (on a large enough
>flash card), compile times are a little slow but whaddya want off
>batteries?  Myself, I want 20+ hours of solid use <G>
>

Hey, dueling guys, how about 8 hours? I saw some ads for
the new "Pocket PC" push [ie. the same-ole-regurgitated,
but new-marketing-strategy WinCE machines], and checked
out the HP Jornada:

http://www.hp.com/jornada/

[note - this site is "really" overloaded with useless craphics]

The 540 is Palm-like in style, but they also have the > 680 <,
which looks like the big brother to the LX. Squished display,
chicklet keybd, etc. But real fast. Does WinCE, but probably not
DOS. Couldn't find the price. Might be right for someone who's
"fallen" off the Palm-UI fast track, and actually desires a
keyboard, but not MP3 or USB. This sucker is really loaded.
[good for backpacking trips too]. Somebody find the $price.

Features follow:
------------------
133MHz 32-bit Hitachi SH3 processor
ðHP Jornada 680/680e: 16MB SDRAM;  
ðHP Jornada 690/690e: 32MB SDRAM
ð6.5-in (16.7-cm) CSTN screen
ð640 x 240 x 65,536 colors on screen,
ðLarge (76% full-size) keyboard
ðEmbedded numeric keypad
ðTouch screen
ðHigh-performance internal modem 56Kbps, v.901
ðInternet e-mail support: POP3, IMAP4, SMTP, and LDAP
ðOne rechargeable Lithium-Ion battery
ðOne 3V CR2032 coin-cell backup battery
ðUp to 8 hours of battery life
ðOne IrDA infrared port
ðOne RS232C serial port
ðOne RJ11 modem port
ðOne PC Card Type II card slot
ðOne CompactFlash Type I card slot
ðAudio speaker and microphone
ðBuilt-in voice recording
ð7.4 x 3.7 x 1.3 in (18.9 x 9.5 x 3.4 cm)
ð1.1 lbs (510 g) with battery
ðExternal Keyboard* (HP F1275A)Ê
================
Software(in ROM)
ðMicrosoft¨ Windows¨ CE, Handheld PC Professional Edition ðMicrosoft
Pocket Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and Access ðMicrosoft Pocket Outlook
(Calendar, Tasks, Contacts, Inbox) ðMicrosoft Pocket Internet Explorer
ðHP Jornada viewer, dialup, settings, show, backup, hot keys, quick pad,
macro, power, country selector ðLandWare OmniSolveú1 (business
calculator) ðBSQUARE bFINDú1 (search utility) ðBSQUARE bFAX¨ Pro1

Software (HP Jornada CD-ROM)
ðStarfishú TrueSyncú CE 2.0 2 (synchronize with REXú cards) ðTrio¨
PhoneManager 2.01 (send/receive short messages on a GSM network) ðInso¨
Outside In¨1 (view e-mail attachments in multiple formats) ðOn the Go
Software¨ Pocket Quicken¨ 2.13 (manage your personal finances and
synchronize files with desktop Quicken) ðWESTTEKú JETCETú PRINT HP Lite
and JETCET PRINT 2.0 trial copy2 (print color documents) ðSierra Imaging
Image Expert¨ CE 2.02 (view, edit, and share digital images)

Software (Microsoft CD-ROMs)
ðMicrosoft Windows CE Services 2.2 or ActiveSync¨ 3.0 (synchronization
software) ðMicrosoft Outlook 2000-full retail desktop version4 (HP
Jornada 690 only)
Software Available for Download
ðTrio¨ PhoneManager 2.02 (send/receive short messages on a GSM network)
ðHP TopTools (PC companion asset manager)

2000\04\30@000956 by Hamish Moffatt

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On Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 08:46:44AM -0600, Dan Michaels wrote:
> Myself, I am still trying to determine if the WinCE machines can
> run in MS-DOS mode. Anyone got one? Anyone know this?

The CPUs are not x86. If you had the DOS source, you could port it,
but you would have to port all your applications too.

The same applies to a port to Linux -- porting the kernel is fine
but all the applications will need to be ported also. Fortunately
this is mostly just a recompile.


Hamish
--
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <hamishEraseMEspamdebian.org> <RemoveMEhamishEraseMEspamspam_OUTcloud.net.au>

2000\04\30@015728 by Mark Willis

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Hamish Moffatt wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 08:46:44AM -0600, Dan Michaels wrote:
> > Myself, I am still trying to determine if the WinCE machines can
> > run in MS-DOS mode. Anyone got one? Anyone know this?
>
> The CPUs are not x86. If you had the DOS source, you could port it,
> but you would have to port all your applications too.

http://www.freedos.org/ - There's source to a Dos clone there - Yes,
it's not MS-Dos per se, it is getting better & better though...  Porting
the compiler to WinCE, though, Ack, I'd think that's easier said than
done <G>

 Mark

2000\04\30@032141 by Russell McMahon

picon face
This is a response from Dr Gavin Higgie, Senior lecturer at Auckland
University.
It is a response to my posting him a "Fire in the hole" post where I
mentioned shooting metal can transistors down university labs.
The first line is his admission of being a one-time culprit too but the rest
is better on this thread.

RM

=============================================

As I remember, I started this little idea before I came to Univ with a
series of transistors from BIPAK in UK.

Never did build the electronic
circuits that they were bought for - a very binary calculator.  One of my
friend took my manufactured but untested Flip Flops and told me later that
some of them actually appeared to work.  The were build by cutting blank
circuit board (just copper on paxelin) into strips and filing slots to make
a tag strip.  Several of these were arranged and components soldered between
them to make a series of flip flops.  I wanted them to toggle so I and
steering logic and capacitors to cause an incoming logic level to cause a
toggle on an edge.  Surprisingly some of them actually worked  - according
to Ian Matheson - a friend of mine whose happened to be a genius.  He died
some years later from a brain tumour, having completed several degrees
before I had one.  Are brain tumours caused by over active brains, or is it
vica-versa.  My brain seems to be slowing down but I think that is age.


{Quote hidden}


'[OT] Ah yes those were the days (but this is now).'
2000\05\04@181905 by jamesnewton
face picon face
Just ran across this...
http://www.pocketdos.com/

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
@spam@jamesnewtonRemoveMEspamEraseMEpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

2000\05\05@110241 by Dan Michaels

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James Newton wrote:
>Just ran across this...
>http://www.pocketdos.com/
>

I checked out the site. Looks interesting - and very cheap.
But you wonder about sites that don't give the name of the
company, or a real world address, etc.

Says something about "uses ROM-DOS 6.22 from Datalight", but
that doesn't appear to be who these guys are. I always wonder
about this kind of site - hangover from reading "Islands in
the Stream", I guess.

regards,
- Dan Michaels
===============

2000\05\18@192128 by Marc

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> > Myself, I am still trying to determine if the WinCE machines can
> > run in MS-DOS mode. Anyone got one? Anyone know this?
>
> In the manual for my Cassiopeia 105 it says that it does not run any dos
> programs.

The HP200LX does run DOS programs. It has been reported that even
Windows 3.0 runs on it, given a big enough RAM extension.  The HP200LX
is an oldie but goldie, ran out of production before the advent of WinCE
and was far ahead of its time.  Buy one second hand and you'll never want
to miss it anymore.

2000\05\18@194653 by Dan Michaels

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Marc wrote:
>> > Myself, I am still trying to determine if the WinCE machines can
>> > run in MS-DOS mode. Anyone got one? Anyone know this?
>>
>> In the manual for my Cassiopeia 105 it says that it does not run any dos
>> programs.
>
>The HP200LX does run DOS programs. It has been reported that even
>Windows 3.0 runs on it, given a big enough RAM extension.  The HP200LX
>is an oldie but goldie, ran out of production before the advent of WinCE
>and was far ahead of its time.  Buy one second hand and you'll never want
>to miss it anymore.
>

I think we came to the conclusion that essentially none of the
new WinCE machines [palm-like or LX-like - ie, Jornada 680] will
run DOS, since none if them uses an 80x86-compatible processor.
You have to go to a subnotebook or notebook to be 86-ish.

2000\05\18@205806 by Mark Willis

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Dan Michaels wrote:
> Marc wrote:
> >> > Myself, I am still trying to determine if the WinCE machines can
> >> > run in MS-DOS mode. Anyone got one? Anyone know this?
> >>
> >> In the manual for my Cassiopeia 105 it says that it does not run any dos
> >> programs.
> >
> >The HP200LX does run DOS programs. It has been reported that even
> >Windows 3.0 runs on it, given a big enough RAM extension.  The HP200LX
> >is an oldie but goldie, ran out of production before the advent of WinCE
> >and was far ahead of its time.  Buy one second hand and you'll never want
> >to miss it anymore.
> >
>
> I think we came to the conclusion that essentially none of the
> new WinCE machines [palm-like or LX-like - ie, Jornada 680] will
> run DOS, since none if them uses an 80x86-compatible processor.
> You have to go to a subnotebook or notebook to be 86-ish.

The HP95LX, HP100LX, HP200LX, and HP1000CX all run on a modified 80C186
processor - HP's other Jornada's etc. do not, sadly.  These (95, 100,
200, 1000) are NOT WinCE machines, they're Dos 5.0 native, booting off a
3Mb ROM.

"There is another", the HP700LX, a little larger, designed to hook to a
cell phone - I don't know all there is to know 'bout those, but know who
to get one from.

I do upgrades for the 200LX and 1000CX (up to 96Mb RAM and
doublespeeding to 31.673MHz crystal), and doublespeeding on the 100LX;
the "Hornet" CPU in the 200LX & co. IS definitely a modified 80c186.  Go
visit http://www.hplx.net/ before saying otherwise, please <G>

It's REALLY really nice to have 8Mb RAM on a 200LX with a 175Mb Flash
card installed, working for 2 weeks off a couple NiMH AA's, sitting in
your pocket, ready for use.  Beats WinCE machines IMO, every time.  Use
mine more than the PC110's lately...  Now to get the chip programmer
built for this beast <G>

The 200LX's are on eBay for $200+ish nowadays, wish they were $100ish
again.  I'd like a 1000cx as well.

 Mark

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