Searching \ for '[OT] A little help? or.... something else?' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: www.piclist.com/techref/index.htm?key=little+help+something
Search entire site for: 'A little help? or.... something else?'.

Exact match. Not showing close matches.
PICList Thread
'[OT] A little help? or.... something else?'
1999\07\02@111432 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
I needed to post this... an experience I had today.

Went to local Radio ShOck looking for a coiled wire, enough to feed
800mA (6Vdc) to a moving head, first thought was a handset telephone
coiled wire, all 4 wires soldered in parallel should do... the return
current goes through ground. That kind of wire size is AWG 28 or around,
stands aprox 760mA per wire, so 4 wires should do it.

First went to the regular wires section, browsing around, some attendant
start a conversation:

he: "Can I help you?",
I:  "Yes, thank you, I am looking for a coiled wire"
he: "What kind of wire?"
I:  "Coiled, isolated, to supply 6V, 800mA to a moving head, it can be a
coiled telephone headset wire. Cell phone lighter car recharger coiled
wire can not do, it is short"
he: "NO! you can't use telephone wire to feed 800mA"
I:  "Why not?"
he: "Because it is too much current, telephone wire stands few
milliamps"
I:  "How many milliamps?, what is the top current for telephone wires?
what is the AWG size?"
he: "I don't know!, but it should be far less than half amp"
I:  "You don't know the size of a telephone wire, not even the current,
how can you be so sure about what you are saying? that it can not feed
800mA?"
he:  "Telephone wires were done to stand low current, can not conduct
800mA"
I:   "How can you be so sure about it? if you don't know the specs of
the wire?"
he:  "They are so small, look..."
     At this point I was holding a big laugh, he was showing a flat
beige 4 wires telephone wire.
I:   "I am talking about coiled wire, not this one"
he:  "It is the same thing"
I:   "No, it is not, the other is coiled"

Sure he got trapped by my questions... he could not justify his guessing
about the current.
I just looked around a bit more and exit the store.
He never pointed me the shelve where lots of coiled telephone wires were
just sit.

Ok, now, do you want to buy a nice computer? a handheld two way
communication radio? perhaps a nice security system? and are not so sure
about it, looking for help? go there and ask this same guy...

Morale:   When asking for technical help, first ask the guy if he really
knows about it, had experience about it... or if he will just guess
about it... remember that you also can guess (that he's an idiot)...

His approaching question should be:  "Can I help you guessing
something?"

Wagner.

1999\07\02@113104 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
At 11:13 AM 7/2/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I needed to post this... an experience I had today.
>
>Went to local Radio ShOck looking for a coiled wire, enough to feed
>800mA (6Vdc) to a moving head, first thought was a handset telephone
>coiled wire, all 4 wires soldered in parallel should do... the return
[SNIP]

Actually, Wagner, in my experience at the "Shack", you were lucky to find
someone who even knew that wire has resistance and has a current limit!

Sean

|
| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
spam_OUTshb7TakeThisOuTspamcornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174
________________________________________________________
NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet.  Shouldn't you?
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html

1999\07\02@113641 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>Morale:   When asking for technical help, first ask the guy if he really
>knows about it, had experience about it... or if he will just guess
>about it... remember that you also can guess (that he's an idiot)...

And he was either a 16-year-old on his first job (which he sees as "time +
commission sales") or a 45-year-old deadbeat whose welfare ran out.

At least that's what we have around here in the stores.

Beware of a technical store who builds its business in the Mall Mentality.

Andy
==================================================================
Andy Kunz               Life is what we do to prepare for Eternity
------------------------------------------------------------------
.....andyKILLspamspam@spam@rc-hydros.com      http://www.rc-hydros.com     - Race Boats
andyspamKILLspammontanadesign.com  http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics
==================================================================

1999\07\02@125534 by mgjurenka

flavicon
face
Andy.. Are you implying that 45-year-old's tend to be deadbeats on welfare?
Hmmm. I have 4 years to go before I fit your stereotype. Yikes, I hope Radio
Shack is hiring by then... Have you ever considered that your level of
knowledge may be equally as limited when compared to others?

Wagner.. Going to Radio Shack with such questions is like asking an
attendant in a car wash how the automatic wash bay computer works. The
attendant will do a fine job washing your car knowing such detail or not.
They are not there to answer questions outside of the scope of the packaged
product or service.  This applies to all fields and professions and at all
levels, including yours. There is a good probability you do not possess all
knowledge, and I bet you would not enjoy someone mocking you if you tried to
comprehend a new circuit! Would you be an idiot too?

...and... If you are such a competent engineer, you would know enough about
wire, current, etc, that you would not need to ask such a question of a
non-engineer salesperson to begin with.  Ask questions that the salesperson
CAN answer (Wagner - do you have four conductor, stranded 28 gauge coiled
phone wire that is 6 feet in length? Salesperson - YES, it is over here!).
In effect, the Radio Shack salesperson is correct, typical phone line
currents are less than 100ma. I have seen them as low as 4ma off hook (I
should know, I built phone based telemetry equipment based on the PIC, have
you?). Driving 800ma through a phone line will cause considerable line loss,
and would not work well - as a phone line. Duh..  You may MODIFY the wire
(i.e. parallel them) to increase current, but it is not a phone line
anymore. Duh.. Apples and Oranges dude.

Morale:  Be more considerate with those of lesser knowledge. Maybe instead
of laughing in his face you should of tried to explain to him your real
purpose, how it could be used for your project, and what may work. Spread
the knowledge, be a teacher, be a leader...

But then, you may enjoy his ignorance. You can take your attitude and
be-little any store clerk in any store, with mall mentality or not, for a
good <evil> laugh. Just as I have done to you with this message (LOL).  What
do you think this discussion group is about? Do you also laugh at simple
questions posted on this list? Jeez.... Give us a break....

..Mark..


{Original Message removed}

1999\07\02@135836 by Tom Handley

picon face
At 11:13 AM 7/2/99 -0400, Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
>I needed to post this... an experience I had today.
>
>Went to local Radio ShOck looking for a coiled wire, enough to feed
>800mA (6Vdc) to a moving head, first thought was a handset telephone
>coiled wire, all 4 wires soldered in parallel should do... the return
>current goes through ground. That kind of wire size is AWG 28 or around,
>stands aprox 760mA per wire, so 4 wires should do it.
[snip]

  `Gawd' Wagner, you don't realize how lucky you are to find a Radio Shack
sales-person that even knows that much! These folks normally don't react well
to electronic knowledge ;-)

  - Tom

1999\07\02@141509 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>Andy.. Are you implying that 45-year-old's tend to be deadbeats on welfare?

No, I'm saying that there are two kinds of employees that Radio Shack tends
to hire.  16 year old kids who haven't learned much, or AA dropouts.  Not
all are like that, mind you, it's just that this is what they've tended to
be AROUND HERE (as I mentioned before).

>knowledge, and I bet you would not enjoy someone mocking you if you tried to
>comprehend a new circuit! Would you be an idiot too?

Trying to comprehend a new circuit is different than telling the author
what he did wrong.

And from his posting, Wagner certainly did ask questions that were
reasonable.  The attendant's objections and attitude were the problem.

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz               Life is what we do to prepare for Eternity
------------------------------------------------------------------
.....andyKILLspamspam.....rc-hydros.com      http://www.rc-hydros.com     - Race Boats
EraseMEandyspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmontanadesign.com  http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics
==================================================================

1999\07\02@144205 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Mark, if you re-read my post, I never asked his technical help, he is at
least 24 years old, with a maximum of 1 or 2 years of overall
experience. He needs 20 more technical years of heavy learning, hard
working and reading, before I would dare to ask him any help at all.  I
was just polite enough to explain him what I was looking for, I never
asked him if the phone wire would work... I have experience enough to
know what will and what will not work.  He intercepted my intentions
trying to shut down my plans. My line of questions was just to show him
that he knows nothing about it, and trying to get the direction to the
coiled phone line shelve... he failed in this job too.

First of all, I would never choose to work in something I don't know all
about, If I need to do it, I will never try to compete knowledge with a
stranger.  Fast as a bullet I would try to learn about my job, day and
night, weekends, drink it, sleep on it, eat it if necessary, until I
could recognize that I really know what I am talking about.  I am pretty
sure, that the boy did learn nothing from today's experience, he doesn't
even got curious to find out an AWG wire specs, I doubt if he knows what
AWG means. That store sells electro/electronic devices and components,
not shoes, not bread, not flowers.

And Mark, I am tired to try to excuse ignorance as being a human
sociologic nature to be stupid, it is not anymore, we can not compare
ourselves to cattle anymore. We have zillions of ways to learn, and
whole ignorance is not accepted easily.  We are turning the millennium,
and some people just don't know what to do when you call them and say
"Can you give me the fax signal please?"  Ignorance is just a stamp in
the guy's front that says... "I am stupid enough to live the way I do
just because I am alive and this is my destiny, I never asked to
born"...  Be smart and have some knowledge is not a gift, it is not
something you born with, it is a plain and simple choice.  A person that
works with electronics can decide between watch MTV channel or finally
read and understand how a FET transistor works, and there is a lot
difference between both choices... duh... that difference can make that
person grab a nice job in the future, or then, just make part of a group
that make use of 10 words to all possible communication... "duh, super
cool, dude!"

There are a bunch of people that take it seriously, they study, they
learn as much as they can, they put all their life to make the life of
everyone better, for money or not. Because their effort, we have VCR's,
TV, Radio, Cars, Air Conditioned, MicroWave, Light and zillions of
things more...doing what? to turn the life of dumb people better, the
same people that call those scientists and engineers crazy and make
jokes with their knowledge and dedication.
It looks like that we have two kinds of human species on the planet, the
ones who really took care of things, and the other bunch that just lay
down and live as cattle.  Guess which group was responsible for
Penicillin, Anesthesia, Medicine, Engineering, Technology, GPS satellite
orientation, and more.

Those engineers and scientists did not born that way... sooner or later
they just decided that life is something bigger to spend being stupid,
and then dig into years of reading and learning.

About your comments:

If you can find some circuit I can not understand, I will be the first
one to recognize and ask how it works. This is the only way to learn,
and nobody will mock me for asking, but they will mock me for faking
knowledge.  Nobody can *guess* how to do a brain surgery, it must be
part of a learning experience.

Be a teacher? in real I love to do that, I did it for years, and still
doing,  but the word "teacher" implies something else, that there must
be students, at least somebody that wants to learn, with a *learning*
attitude.

Yes, I projected and built modems in 1976 and still producing remote
equipment that use telephone lines. I was the first one to show a
project about home automation via Internet 6 years ago (my company is
just releasing the system), and up to now IBM still using a portable
device I developed in 1985 to help in locate problems in
telecommunication links SDLC, HDLC, X25 and so on, named EDTP.  I can
say I understand a little bit about phone lines,

No, I don't laugh at questions, mainly from the simple and innocent ones
posted here... people who does that has the courage to expose their lack
of knowledge and they are yelling for help, we MUST help them at any
cost...they deserve it.  I never left one simple question in my e-mail
reader without an answer, lots of people recognizes that, in this and
other forums also.

I laugh yes, when somebody saw water by the first time in a bottle and
try to look more important than others doing a fowl explanation about
the Baltic Sea, when he doesn't have a minimum clue about where it is,
not even the small interest in take a look at the world map, if he has
one.

I could be wrong, but at least I know how to fix my home A/C, change a
bearing in my car's generator, exchange brake pads, build a computer,
write a computer program, build an electronic device, make dinner, and
know where "Moldavia" country or "Aconcagua Mountain" is, or why brits
are in India, or talking more than a language can save me in Paris
International (Charles DeGaule Airport) with a unexpected connection...
not because I am special, far from this, the answer is just because I
wanted to learn and spent some time doing it, instead sleeping saturday
afternoons. It doesn't hurt to learn, it is free, our memory has no
limits, but somebody else chooses to spend all his life watching MTV and
playing Nintendo... poor me, learn about what means "BRIX" (percent of
solids in liquid) from a person like that.

Final:  As more I learn, more questions appear in my mind, and I am not
afraid to ask. It makes me a person with zillion of questions (a simple
and ignorant one),  but at least I know why the vegetation opted by the
green color instead the second choice that was yellow, I don't sell
flowers and I know it, does the florist (a specialist) knows why?

Wagner


{Quote hidden}

1999\07\02@144212 by Barry Rimmer

picon face
{Quote hidden}

I know you made this all up, because, between NY, NJ, and FL, I have never
had a Radioshack person who could even carry on a conversation half this
intelligent!

1999\07\02@145632 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
I am sorry, the answer to Mark went to the forum.
I apologize.
Wagner.

1999\07\02@151313 by Adam Davis

flavicon
face
This is not meant to offend, but it seems to me that you've just experienced an
everday miscommunication.  I'm surprised that it affected you so much to write
about it.

I wonder why you gave him that much information?  I assume you've been to Radio
Shack before, and you know that the salepersons working there do not need to
have any knowledge of electronics to work there.  When asked, "What kind of
wire?"  You probably would have gotten the information you needed by only
telling him the information he needed, "Coiled telephone wire" would certianly
have been sufficient.  It wasn't like he was asking you what you were using it
for, or why you chose it.  You gave him some parameters about the wire (coiled,
isolated, handles 6v @ 800mA) a suggestion that might work, and a reason not to
use another type... But that left the conversation wide open for him to inject
his own knowledge.  (never give a salesperson the oppurtunity to choose what you
buy.  If you don't know, ask questions and study it, but make your own choice!)
I understand that he shouldn't have been trying to dissuade you from buying a
specific product, but the miscommunication is clear:  He thought you meant 800mA
per strand (so he was absolutely correct in what he was saying, as far as his
understanding of your needs were, and the product you had suggested).  At that
point both of you became defensive and weren't trying to resolve the issue.  (a
good example of a lose-lose situation)

But it's the age old problem with communication.  Too much information is just
as confusing and useless as too little.

Anyway, it really doesn't matter - you can buy coiled phone cords without
questions from nearly any hardware and most large grocery stores...

-Adam

1999\07\02@151727 by Vic Lopez

flavicon
face
AMEN, Wagner!!

    Faking knowledge and shutting down people  have been the typical
characteristics of the guys at Radio Shack that I have come in contact with.
Granted, NOT all of them are like that, I'm sure. However, I still have yet
to come across one that is not like that. But maybe is not their fault.
Maybe they are taught by their company to think that they know everything,
and that there is no need for technical training or continuing education. It
is just sad to hear the "advice" and "explanations" these guys give to
people that don't know much about electronics. The worst part is that when
you kindly suggest that their explanation or advice is not correct, and
explain why, they really shut you down and won't give an inch.
{Original Message removed}

1999\07\02@154025 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
It's scary, I must be meeting the wrong people.  I know some store
managers around here that run Radio Shack's - and one at least who just
works there, no longer manages, to prevent migraines.  They're actually
honest enough to know what they don't know & admit to it;  Of course,
these are the managers, not average sales floor folks.  Those are
usually better at catching shoplifters than telling me where store stock
is <G>

I've found one thing - getting to know who at a given store is who, does
help - if it just helps them know you & know, that you know what you're
talking about.

Having had a family member use my microclip leads (The ones you snap
onto DIL leads to watch Vcc for stability, right?), to check amperage
out of a 60A car alternator once (they borrowed my DVM without my
knowledge!) - I'll say this:

LOCK UP YOUR DVM & OTHER TEST GEAR & TEST LEADS!  <G>

There are people for whom "common sense" doesn't mean the same thing as
it does to all of us.  Could be that the RS employee Wagner was talking
to was worried about someone setting their house on fire, same as my DVM
almost got set on fire there (The microclips saved the meter, by glowing
red & becoming straight little pieces of phosphor bronze, instead of
hooked.  10A fuse didn't even blow.  Person's sold wire in the past, but
wasn't THINKING, I guess!)

Could be that that RS employee needs to get to know Wagner & get a clue,
that Wagner knows what he's talking about! <G>

Could be that the RS employee needs to learn, not just fake it,
definitely <G>

The other possibility is that the RS employee could've been having a
really bad day, with headache or something.  Sometimes connecting on a
personal level lets people get along better & not defend themselves, I
know doing that makes life more fun for me.

 Mark

1999\07\02@154827 by Harold Hallikainen

picon face
As they say... "Radio Shack:  You have questions; we have batteries."


Regarding "technical store built with the mall mentality,"  I always
thought it would be interesting to rent one of those little carts in a
mall which are generally used to sell junk jewlery or cookies.  I'd stock
it up with motherboards, RAM, cables, software on CD, etc.  High value
stuff that doesn't take much room.  Could it work in the typical mall?

Further Radio Shack story...  Years ago I was working in a radio station
and got a Radio Shack catalog.  The catalog had what appeared to be a
transistor radio battery and the text said it had "higher lumen output."
They had a CB radio with "range boost" with no explanation as to what it
was.  They had a TV antenna whose major attribute was that it looked good
on top of any set.  I wrote them a letter questioning these items and
finished off with something like "I'm currently the chief engineer of a
radio station, but would consider a job writing catalog copy."  They
wrote back thanking me for reading their catalog so carefully.  The
admitted the "higher lumen output" did not make sense on a transistor
radio battery and would fix that.  I don't remember what they said about
"Range Boost."  They did say the TV antenna copy got a little hokey at
times.  They didn't have any openings at the time (early 1970's).

Harold



Harold Hallikainen
haroldspamspam_OUThallikainen.com
Hallikainen & Friends, Inc.
See the FCC Rules at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules and comments filed
in LPFM proceeding at http://hallikainen.com/lpfm

On Fri, 2 Jul 1999 11:13:41 -0400 Wagner Lipnharski
<@spam@wagnerlKILLspamspamEARTHLINK.NET> writes:
{Quote hidden}

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: dl.http://www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

1999\07\02@160353 by Robert K. Johnson

flavicon
face
       I wasn't aware that an EE degree was a requirement for a sales position
at
Radio Shack... Seems to me that the sales persom was trying to do him a
favor...
BTW Telephone Coiled handset cords are probably the poorest choice for ANY
load greater than 50 MA. Typically they are composed of small flat (ribbon)
conductors wrapped around a fiber filler... At least this is the experience
of this 53 year old Engineer... REALLY! why would anyone oin his rifgt mind
expect a salesman at an appliance store that stocks a limited number of
parts to be an expert on all parameters of the materials they sell...
Suppost next it is justifiable to be angry with the person for not knowing
the 1/2 power beamwidth of every led that the store stocks. In My
profession I first detirmine the wire that is required (most wire catalogs
are free if not directly on the internet) and then it is a simple task to
evaluate various possibilities... it seems to me that a 100 % margin for a
wire that needs to be flexed repeatedly is a very poor margin. That is
however a matter of experience and preference... But 2 to 3 amps would be a
better choice...

At 11:30 AM 7/2/99 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\07\02@173831 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Last one, I promise.

I just applied 1.4 amps in that coiled 4 wires in parallel, it just
dropped 0.13 Volts, what gives me a total resistance of 0.0975 Ohms in
6ft cable.  A total power dissipated of 30mW per ft is acceptable for a
800mA 15 minutes glorious demo to a customer.  For sure Robert, for the
series production I would not go to BellSouth handset coiled flexible
cables, a heavy cable literature is the best choice, I agree with you.
But requiring the cable at 10:00am to a demo at 01:00pm is something
that no cable company could delivery as fast as the headset cable, not
from RadioShack, but from K-Mart... :)

When somebody says to me "YOU CAN NOT DO IT", but he doesn't know
exactly why, it sounds to me one of two possibilities:

1) His knowledge is suspected, so I would delight myself exploring his
information resources.

2) However, if this guy is in militar clothes, pointing a machine gun to
me, and there are tanks and helicopters all around, then I am in a
military dictated country, I would delight myself to the first
international airport.

...next time at RadioShack I would be listening my portable CD player
with earphones... :)

Wagner.

"Robert K. Johnson" wrote:
>
>         I wasn't aware that an EE degree was a requirement for a sales positio
n at
{Quote hidden}

1999\07\02@182011 by mgjurenka

flavicon
face
Oh Boy,, I'll probably get kicked off the list for this but....

What the 'ell are you talking about Mr. Wagner?

"20 more technical years of heavy learning, hard working and reading, before
I would dare to ask him any help at all."

That would make him 44 years old, A BSEE, probably a MS in EE or equivalent,
divorced or living with a very unhappy spouse, before you would be able to
ask him about 28 gauge phone wire? That leaves me out since I have only 18
years professional experience, A BSEE, on the way to a MS in CE. This is
certainly unrealistic. Sorry I can't help you then. Whew!

"He intercepted my intentions trying to shut down my plans. My line of
questions was just to show him that he knows nothing about it, and trying to
get the direction to the coiled phone line shelve... he failed in this job
too."

Yes he did. He lost a $2.50 sale and had someone laugh in his face. Didn't
sound like he shut down your plans. Safety wise, he tried to prevent what
appeared to him as a unsuitable use of phone cord. I agree.

"First of all, I would never choose to work in something I don't know all
about, If I need to do it, I will never try to compete knowledge with a
stranger.  Fast as a bullet I would try to learn about my job, day and
night, weekends, drink it, sleep on it, eat it if necessary, until I could
recognize that I really know what I am talking about."

Really, do you completely understand EVERYTHING about engineering? One way
that I learn is by actively engaging in conversation with those who are more
knowledgeable. If there is one thing I have learned, just about the time you
THINK you know a subject well, a completely NEW topic appears and what used
to valid is no longer true (speaking of 1Ghz system design that I do). What
I have learned in the last 2 years is nothing short of amazing, but I
balance knowledge with tolerance and perhaps a little humility. You may try
that, it works!

"That store sells electro/electronic devices and components, not shoes, not
bread, not flowers."

You forgot Toys, cell phones, telephones, car speakers, antennas, bad parts
:), etc.. Are you a complete expert in all these areas too? Are you
expecting anyone with 2 years experience in selling these items to be
knowledgeable to your standards?

"I am tired to try to excuse ignorance as being a human sociologic nature to
be stupid, it is not anymore, we can not compare ourselves to cattle
anymore."

May I suggest you go to a distributor or use the phone to talk to an
applications engineer so you don't waste your valuable time at Radio Shack?
Leave the ignorant cattle be.

"I am stupid enough to live the way I do just because I am alive and this is
my destiny, I never asked to born"..."A person that works with electronics
can decide between watch MTV channel or" ....  "to turn the life of dumb
people better "...."the same people that call those scientists and engineers
crazy and make jokes with their knowledge and dedication."

Sounds like a little bit of right-wing us-Vs-them rederic here. Remember, he
didn't laugh in your face... and from your public response to my letter, you
are the one making jokes with the salesman knowledge and dedication. Sounds
like a hypocrite to me.

"It looks like that we have two kinds of human species on the planet, the
ones who really took care of things, and the other bunch that just lay down
and live as cattle."

In Your Words then, Mooooo.... duh, super cool, dude!

"We MUST help them at any cost...they deserve it.

THEN DO IT! Please! Bitching about a minimum wage salesperson who is working
for other goals besides yours is not going to help!

May I recommend Prozac? I must apologize if I have in some way bruised your
ego, or tarnished your reputation by questioning your absolute knowledge.
You obviously represent the finest, most dedicated, more talented individual
I could ever imagine. I am sure that society is blessed by your gift and
hard study. If it were not for people like you, the lesser people (like the
rest of us) seeking smaller goals would have no one to look up to. Next time
I need my A/C or car fixed, I'll write you ... NOT.


..Mark...

1999\07\02@190208 by Eric Oliver

flavicon
face
Well, while I must concede that typically Radio Shack's slogan should be :

Radio Shack, you got questions, we got bullshit <g> ... The manager of my
local RS is actually quite knowledgable and has helped my out on several
occasions. Then again, I'm not an EE ...

Eric

On Friday, July 02, 1999 10:28 AM, Sean Breheny [SMTP:spamBeGoneshb7spamBeGonespamCORNELL.EDU]
wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\07\02@190417 by Lynx {Glenn Jones}

flavicon
face
or "you've got questions? _We've_ got questions!"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A member of the PI-100 Club:
3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751
058209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679

On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, Eric Oliver wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1999\07\02@191903 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
Expecting the Radio Shack salesman to know if the wire would work in your
application is like expecting an auto parts counterman to know if heater
hose would work for power steering return line. He should say "No, it
won't work". Of course, I used heater hose for power steering return line
in my '68 Roadrunner. Not perfect, but worked in a pinch(actually I used
it all time I had it, replaced the hose every few months because it
softens and collapses).

It'd be great if Radio Shack hired engineers with years of experience, but
it ain't going to happen. Be nice to the guys that have to work there.
Quite often they do know more about the stuff they sell than the people
they sell it to(not in your case, but you know that now!).

Have a great weekend, please don't take offense at my comments, I don't
intend them to be mean-spirited.

-Bob

1999\07\02@193400 by Eric Oliver

flavicon
face
Mark,

I think that was a little harsh ... Perhaps you took both messages the
wrong way ? Wagner's gone above and beyond on this list helping newbies.
He even helped me off list to get a 555 timer circuit working. I remember
distinctly on more than one occasion Wagner stating "There's no such thing
as a stupid question". Andy's wry sense of humor can sometimes be taken the
wrong way. , but I enjoy it. Sometimes playful banter is nothing more than
playful banter.

You need to keep in mind that maybe it wasn't just what the guy said, but
how he said it. I would think, given the wisdom you blessed us with in the
text below, you would have considered that.

Eric

On Friday, July 02, 1999 11:53 AM, mgjurenka [SMTP:EraseMEmgjurenkaspamMICRON.COM]
wrote:
> Andy.. Are you implying that 45-year-old's tend to be deadbeats on
welfare?
> Hmmm. I have 4 years to go before I fit your stereotype. Yikes, I hope
Radio
> Shack is hiring by then... Have you ever considered that your level of
> knowledge may be equally as limited when compared to others?
>
> Wagner.. Going to Radio Shack with such questions is like asking an
> attendant in a car wash how the automatic wash bay computer works. The
> attendant will do a fine job washing your car knowing such detail or not.
> They are not there to answer questions outside of the scope of the
packaged
> product or service.  This applies to all fields and professions and at
all
> levels, including yours. There is a good probability you do not possess
all
> knowledge, and I bet you would not enjoy someone mocking you if you tried
to
> comprehend a new circuit! Would you be an idiot too?
>
> ...and... If you are such a competent engineer, you would know enough
about
> wire, current, etc, that you would not need to ask such a question of a
> non-engineer salesperson to begin with.  Ask questions that the
salesperson
> CAN answer (Wagner - do you have four conductor, stranded 28 gauge coiled
> phone wire that is 6 feet in length? Salesperson - YES, it is over
here!).
> In effect, the Radio Shack salesperson is correct, typical phone line
> currents are less than 100ma. I have seen them as low as 4ma off hook (I
> should know, I built phone based telemetry equipment based on the PIC,
have
> you?). Driving 800ma through a phone line will cause considerable line
loss,
> and would not work well - as a phone line. Duh..  You may MODIFY the wire
> (i.e. parallel them) to increase current, but it is not a phone line
> anymore. Duh.. Apples and Oranges dude.
>
> Morale:  Be more considerate with those of lesser knowledge. Maybe
instead
> of laughing in his face you should of tried to explain to him your real
> purpose, how it could be used for your project, and what may work. Spread
> the knowledge, be a teacher, be a leader...
>
> But then, you may enjoy his ignorance. You can take your attitude and
> be-little any store clerk in any store, with mall mentality or not, for a
> good <evil> laugh. Just as I have done to you with this message (LOL).
What
> do you think this discussion group is about? Do you also laugh at simple
> questions posted on this list? Jeez.... Give us a break....
>
> ..Mark..
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

1999\07\02@201004 by Robert K. Johnson

flavicon
face
       Well mebbe so... However the thread did mention 2 pairs of wires...
seems to me that it takes a return to make a complete circuit... <BG>
and I don't remember anything about a 15 min demo... But that doesn't mean
anything...
I have the biggest bag of wooden nickles you ever saw or at least they told
me they were  wood when the d--n things
were given to me <Bigger Grin>

Seriously NOW I am not trying to start a flame war.  not even a little
skirmish here. I enjoy the bandwidth too much.
occaisonally there is a problem presented here that is a small and usually
diverting challenge, But the first missive in this chain was
somewhat disturbing, Methinks the gent origionating the message/diatribe
had a rather high opinion of himself.
Unfortunatly seeme to me his was rather to find fault in others. I mean
jeez all the poor salesman did wrong was not to be a
walking encyclopedia of wire data and {GASP} try to be helpfull TO THE BEST
of his ability. SHOOT THE FOOL he is a poor example of humanity
Now in a more serious vein what was wrong there? If the Engineers
experience was so great why not let the little guy say his piece
and just consider the source. I mean after all his data was pretty close to
being correct and reading between the lines it was obvious to me that the
sales person was parroting something that he had read, Not repeating his
personal experience.
And Finally My experience with coiled cords is 20 years old BUT the ribbon
wires would break and worse the insulation piercing
spade (yes spade lugs) lugs were a frequent source of problems with less
than 200 ma of current flow. Some new cords wouldn't work 10 minutes.
BTW the cord was used to pulse a ledex rotary relay in an old car telephone
I was asked to re engineer...


At 05:37 PM 7/2/99 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

position at
{Quote hidden}

1999\07\02@203534 by Eric Oliver

flavicon
face
Wagner,

A few thoughts ...

Your attitudes reflect my own.  I've always said I was a great student
because of my thirst for knowledge. However, I make a really poor employee
because I'm so easily distracted by something new <g>.

It seems to me that many here share that thirst.  I believe that's what
makes this list so great. I think it is a truth that those who thirst for
knowledge also love to share their knowledge.

I work for a small company and, FWIW, I'm part of upper management <g>.  I
see it everyday with new and old employees alike.  There are thinkers and
.. what's a good word .. drones.  It is a fact that some people do not like
to think.  The drones come to the thinkers for answers and the thinkers
rise to the top.

OTOH, what should you say about a rancher on a 1,000 acre ranch in Montana
?  He wakes up everyday, spends all day working under a huge blue sky
surrounded by majestic mountains.  Perhaps he doesn't know what the
Internet is and could care less.  He lives doing what he loves and it
doesn't involve learning how lightning works. He just knows it's best not
to get struck <g>. Someday he'll die not having ever expanding his mind
beyond the land that he loves so much.

We do what we do because we love it.  If someone chooses to sweep floors
all his life and die with a broom on his hand, then so be it.  I'll neither
take pity nor look down on him. He'll die, perhaps content by his
standards, but not by mine.

It's those wankers and wannabes (love that phrase <bg>) that live off the
hard work of others all their life singing the same sad tune that really
chap my ass <not so big grin>.

Eric <thinking this is getting further and further off topic>

On Friday, July 02, 1999 1:41 PM, Wagner Lipnharski
[SMTP:RemoveMEwagnerlEraseMEspamEraseMEEARTHLINK.NET] wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1999\07\02@220335 by Eric Oliver

flavicon
face
> But the first missive in this chain was
> somewhat disturbing, Methinks the gent origionating the message/diatribe
> had a rather high opinion of himself.

Or perhaps he was just ... being human.  Maybe communicating an anecdote
with people he considers to be his peers. Maybe having a bad day and under
a lot of pressure. Maybe the salespersons attitude was the gist of the
problem.  The problem with this form of communication is there are no
facial expressions or hand gestures or tone of voice to convey intent. Even
lengthy messages require brevity and valuable information gets lost along
the way.  Tolerance and reading between the lines will generally smooth the
rough edges.

Wagner has been on this list for sometime and like any relationship feels
he 'knows' us to some extent. Some better than others.  It might have been
nothing more than "Whew ! I'm having a bad day and to make matters worse
...."

Take the gentleman who first flamed Wagner.  If we were peers, face to f
ace, and I relayed the exact same anecdote in person, would he have
responded so vehemently ? If I knew him, and he knew me ?  If so, then I
personally wouldn't want to know that person and would guess he has a hard
time making friends <g>.  Because, to me, _he_ would be the one with a high
opinion of himself. Now I know that they _don't_ know each other. It is a
problem unique to this form of communication but sarcasm and scathing
comments are still unproductive and serve to degrade communication no
matter whether you know the person or not.

Anyone who has not had a similar experience or perhaps been a little harsh
on another human being, please speak up. It would be nice to be perfect,
but those damn emotions always get in the way.

The original flamer preaches tolerance but doesn't seem to think it applys
to him.  In fact, in his posts, I would say he is guilty of the very
transgressions he so vehemently condems.  Who knows, maybe he was belittled
by a peer shortly before reading Wagner's first post. See ? That one tiny
piece of information would coompletely change my attitude towards his
posts.

Consider this a flame against flames <bg>.

Eric <Bored and talkative on Friday night>
Yes, Wagner, I know I should be reading the PIC datasheets instead of
engaging in OT debate <bg>.

> Unfortunatly seeme to me his was rather to find fault in others. I mean
> jeez all the poor salesman did wrong was not to be a
> walking encyclopedia of wire data and {GASP} try to be helpfull TO THE
BEST
> of his ability. SHOOT THE FOOL he is a poor example of humanity
> Now in a more serious vein what was wrong there? If the Engineers
> experience was so great why not let the little guy say his piece
> and just consider the source. I mean after all his data was pretty close
to
> being correct and reading between the lines it was obvious to me that the
> sales person was parroting something that he had read, Not repeating his
> personal experience.
> And Finally My experience with coiled cords is 20 years old BUT the
ribbon
> wires would break and worse the insulation piercing
> spade (yes spade lugs) lugs were a frequent source of problems with less
> than 200 ma of current flow. Some new cords wouldn't work 10 minutes.
> BTW the cord was used to pulse a ledex rotary relay in an old car
telephone
{Quote hidden}

ANY
> >> load greater than 50 MA. Typically they are composed of small flat
(ribbon)
> >> conductors wrapped around a fiber filler... At least this is the
experience
> >> of this 53 year old Engineer... REALLY! why would anyone oin his rifgt
mind
> >> expect a salesman at an appliance store that stocks a limited number
of
> >> parts to be an expert on all parameters of the materials they sell...
> >> Suppost next it is justifiable to be angry with the person for not
knowing
> >> the 1/2 power beamwidth of every led that the store stocks. In My
> >> profession I first detirmine the wire that is required (most wire
catalogs
> >> are free if not directly on the internet) and then it is a simple task
to
> >> evaluate various possibilities... it seems to me that a 100 % margin
for a
> >> wire that needs to be flexed repeatedly is a very poor margin. That is
> >> however a matter of experience and preference... But 2 to 3 amps would
be a
> >> better choice...
> >
> >

1999\07\03@002458 by Ravi Pailoor

flavicon
face
part 0 2021 bytes content-type:text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" (decoded 7bit)

Instance 1.

Classmate 1 : Ravi, what would be the probable qustions that would come
in the test.
Me : Pin outs of a transistors,
Classmate 1 : Studied
Me : Type of flipflops
Classmate 1 : Tell me.
Me : J K, T type, D type, Q type
Classmate 2 : What is Q type ?
Me : Gave him some weird long truth table and he mugged it up :-)
Classmate 1 : Any more ?
Me : Yes, do you know the polarity of a resistor ?
Classmate 1 : Yeh, the gold band is the cathode
We all had a good laugh :-)

Instance 2

I asked my engineer to rig up a TRIAC as per the circuit diagram.

Me : Have you connected the phase to MT1
Eng : Yes sir
Me : Have you connected the MT2 to load
Eng : Yes sir
Me : Have you connected the load to neutral
Eng : Yes sir
Me : Have you shorted the phase and neutral.
Eng : Yes sir....... NO sir ( and it strikes him )

Instance 3

We had some transformers delivered and had to test them.  I asked one of
my enginners to
test the transformers and after a couple of minutes the fuse on the
incomming line blew.

Me : What happened ?
Eng : I was testing the transformers and the fuse blew.
Me : How did you test them ?
Eng : I connected the primary of the voltage transformer to the mains
230 V input and measured the voltage at the
secondary.
Me : How did you test the current transformers ?
Eng : The same way............

Well thats life in the electronics field :-)

Pailoor

Website : http://business.vsnl.com/chiptech
Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for Ravi Pailoor
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf"

Attachment converted: wonderland:vcard.vcf (TEXT/CSOm) (0000980B)
Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for Ravi Pailoor
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf"

Attachment converted: wonderland:vcard.vcf 1 (TEXT/CSOm) (0000980C)

1999\07\03@003558 by Tracey DeChambeau

picon face
Can't we all just get along?  LOL
Seriously, you both are correct, be a teacher, a leader, but to be amused at
another's insistence of poor training isn't completely infallible.

1999\07\03@003834 by Tracey DeChambeau

picon face
Well, this is an opportunity for you all to have a good laugh.
What is a PIC?
Have been following this list for a few days, understand some of what's going
on, but am missing the basics I guess.
Earned my electronics Technician degree in "82" have been a mechanic ever
since (more money) but have been tinkering as of lately with servo and
stepper motor drivers, got turned onto this list by someone (?) and find some
of the info useful. I'll try not to burden you with questions that are too
simple if I can find the info elsewhere on the web.   :o)
Anyway it's been interesting,
Tracey

1999\07\03@094729 by paulb

flavicon
face
Does this thread count for the "biggest bun-fight in the previous
month"?
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\07\03@100840 by Robert K. Johnson

flavicon
face
At 08:35 PM 7/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
Quite right... It hurts to say it but most all of your comments apply to
me... I am frequently arrogant to a fault. However it was my reading of the
origional message that left me with the opinion that the poor salesperson
was being badgered, IMHO <g> unnecessairly so as Rat Shack has few
databooks on thier wire and similar materials. Having been an active RS
shopper for a great many years I am aware of how little time the sales
force has to become intimatly familar with ALL of the product line and more
to the point how little incentive to do so. Having said this I stand humbly
corrected. I will make a sincere effort to be less abrupt and grandiose in
my replay

                               R.K. Johnson
                               RemoveMErkj1spam_OUTspamKILLspamix.netcom.com


{Quote hidden}

1999\07\04@203257 by Dennis Plunkett

flavicon
face
At 10:53 2/07/99 -0600, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Yes, infact phone line currents are nominaly limited to less than 125mA,
this comes from the old 200R feed bridge and -48V battery feed. The only
time it is larger in current is when the battery feed is 100V for long line
stuff.
As for the 4mA off hook? Humm, I would like to see that one, as this is
outside of nominal telephone specifications, also such low currents will
tend to create false off hook conditions.
But you are right, the question was loaded, and unfair. As they had the
product you wanted, why was it not brought?


Dennis




{Quote hidden}

>{Original Message removed}

More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 1999 , 2000 only
- Today
- New search...