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'[OT] 240V in USA [way OT]'
1998\07\22@093606 by lilel

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Andy Kunz wrote:

> >Solution:  Sue Edison and Tesla in court.
>
> Edison was a proponent of DC.  Good thing he LOST!

<wierd theme music plays>

In an alternate reality, Edison won.  Tesla and his friends at
Westinghouse went down in shame. AC power remained a curiosity.
Because DC cannot be distributed long distances, every block and
every hamlet had a power station.  Because of that the power
companies were much more distributed and locally controlled.  Power
generation became driven by economies of mass production instead of
economies of scale.  In order to further de-consolidate their power,
in the late 1990's they put serious funding into solar energy, and
began in earnest roofing people's houses with solar shingles.  By the
end of 1998, they had re-roofed every structure in the developed
world with solar shingles, and nearly eliminatred Acid Rain by
reducing coal buring.  As the world entered the 21st century,  the
widespread belief that the future would bring a worldwide
environmental disaster was no longer prevalent.

<stop wierd theme music>

Scary, huh?
-- Lawrence Lile

    "An Engineer is simply a machine for
     turning coffee into assembler code."

Download AutoCad blocks for electrical drafting at:
http://home1.gte.net/llile/index.htm

1998\07\22@100235 by Andy Kunz

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Very good point, Lyle - I think I would have preferred that reality.

It makes some weird thoughts, though:

What would we use as the basic input frequency to an unconnected input pin?

How would I know that my scope's ground lead is not connected to anything?

Where would we get that hum in our speaker systems?

How would we keep track of time in wall-powered clocks?  Would they have to
be powered by accurate xtals?

What would we use for a refresh frequency on our computer monitors?

What would make fluorescent lights flicker?

What would be a standard shutter speed for indoor cameras?

Would there be two different NTSC standards?

How would we get 3-phase power to run our industrial motors?

Andy


At 08:31 AM 7/22/98 +0000, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Statistical Research, Inc. - Westfield, New Jersey USA
==================================================================

1998\07\22@112918 by Format

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Andy Kunz wrote:

> Very good point, Lyle - I think I would have preferred that reality.
>
> It makes some weird thoughts, though:
>
> Where would we get that hum in our speaker systems?
>

Speakers don't like DC

> How would we keep track of time in wall-powered clocks?  Would they have to
> be powered by accurate xtals?
>

Quartz Crystal

> What would we use for a refresh frequency on our computer monitors?
>

Quartz Crystal/Xtal

> What would make fluorescent lights flicker?
>

Xtal and a big transistor

> What would be a standard shutter speed for indoor cameras?
>

hmm...

> Would there be two different NTSC standards?
>

naa...

>

> How would we get 3-phase power to run our industrial motors?
>

DC hobby motors  -  500 should do the job.

> Andy
>



--
<------------------------------------------------------->
< Martin Klingensmith, AKA Format.                      >
< Pyrotechnics - Mountain Bikes - Electronics - Coding  >
< Aquaria - Computers - Computer Selling - And the list >
< Keeps going, and going...                             >
<------------------------------------------------------->

1998\07\22@125649 by Harijs Melders

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At 11:26 98.07.22.­Zª Gxt­Zª€šx -0400, Format wrote:
--------snip--------
>> Would there be two different NTSC standards?
>>
>
>naa...
--------snip--------

If seriously, to which NTSC VHS I must transcode PAL signal for viewing in US-
NTSC 3.58 or NTSC 4.43?

Regards,
Harijs.

1998\07\22@142744 by Andy Kunz

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>
>If seriously, to which NTSC VHS I must transcode PAL signal for viewing in
US-
>NTSC 3.58 or NTSC 4.43?

USA is 3.58, Canada is 4.43.

Most Canadians watch American stations, kind of like exists in Europe.

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Statistical Research, Inc. - Westfield, New Jersey USA
==================================================================

1998\07\22@143119 by ogerio Odriozola

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To NTSC 3.58.

Rogerio





spam_OUTharisTakeThisOuTspamLNT.LV on 22/07/98 11:55:32 AM

Please respond to .....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

To:   PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
cc:    (bcc: Rogerio Odriozola/MTY/TVA/Dataflux)
Subject:  Re: [OT] 240V in USA [way OT]




At 11:26 98.07.22.??Gxt???x -0400, Format wrote:
--------snip--------
>> Would there be two different NTSC standards?
>>
>
>naa...
--------snip--------
If seriously, to which NTSC VHS I must transcode PAL signal for viewing in
US-
NTSC 3.58 or NTSC 4.43?
Regards,
Harijs.

1998\07\22@145533 by Mike Keitz

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On Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:55:32 +0300 Harijs Melders <.....harisKILLspamspam.....LNT.LV> writes:

>If seriously, to which NTSC VHS I must transcode PAL signal for
>viewing in=
> US-
>NTSC 3.58 or NTSC 4.43?

They use 3.58 in the USA, Canada, and I think Japan.  Where is 4.43 used?
I have a TV that can receive both NTSC's and PAL.  It also works on 120
or 240V and requires only one phase.  These TV's are sold to US military
people in the "PX" stores so they can be used worldwide.  Older military
TV's included a fourth mode called "SECAM" but I guess that isn't used
much, or is expensive to implement.


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1998\07\22@150719 by Mike Keitz

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On Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:40:49 -0400 Andy Kunz <EraseMEmtdesignspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTFAST.NET> writes:
>>
>>If seriously, to which NTSC VHS I must transcode PAL signal for
>viewing in
>US-
>>NTSC 3.58 or NTSC 4.43?
>
>USA is 3.58, Canada is 4.43.

I don't think so, I had a 3.58 NTSC TV along on a trip to Ontario and was
definitely watching the local programs (ladies curling and snowmobile
tweaking) in glorious NTSC color.  Maybe Quebec uses something different
just for spite.

>
>Most Canadians watch American stations, kind of like exists in Europe.

Canada is quite large enough to get out of range of USA broadcast TV,
though they probably do watch a lot of US satellite signals.  Canadians,
I'm not trying to be mean.




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1998\07\22@160349 by Eric Smith

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On Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:55:32 +0300 Harijs Melders <harisspamspam_OUTLNT.LV> writes:
> If seriously, to which NTSC VHS I must transcode PAL signal for
> viewing in US- NTSC 3.58 or NTSC 4.43?

Mike Keitz <@spam@mkeitzKILLspamspamJUNO.COM> wrote:
> They use 3.58 in the USA, Canada, and I think Japan.  Where is 4.43 used?

NTSC 4.43 is not used as a broadcast standard anywhere.  Some PAL or
multistandard VCRs are capable of playing back NTSC videotapes but with PAL
color encoding (and the PAL-standard 4.43 MHz color carrier), thus the name
NTSC 4.43.  Although multistandard monitors generally have a setting for NTSC
4.43, it is apparently the case that most late-model PAL televisions and
monitors will sync up to the 525/59.94 scan rate of NTSC, so they can display
a normal NTSC signal in monochrome only, or an NTSC 4.43 signal in full color.

Note that NTSC 4.43 is not part of the NTSC standard.  As far as I know, it
is not specified by any published technical standard.

Eric

1998\07\22@161727 by Andy Kunz

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>TV's included a fourth mode called "SECAM" but I guess that isn't used
>much, or is expensive to implement.

SECAM is for France and its colonies.

Andy


==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Statistical Research, Inc. - Westfield, New Jersey USA
==================================================================

1998\07\22@161730 by Andy Kunz

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>>Most Canadians watch American stations, kind of like exists in Europe.
>
>Canada is quite large enough to get out of range of USA broadcast TV,
>though they probably do watch a lot of US satellite signals.  Canadians,
>I'm not trying to be mean.

But 80% (I think that's the right number) of Canadians reside within the
reaches of US TV.

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Statistical Research, Inc. - Westfield, New Jersey USA
==================================================================

1998\07\22@163049 by Herbert Graf

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{Quote hidden}

       True, that's why alot of us have cable, at least in major cities, I
personally receive all the major US networks through local stations, and get
both a satalite version of NBC and I think CBS. The stations I watch most
are a nice mix between canadian stations and US stations, especially FOX.
TTYL

1998\07\22@190402 by Peter L. Peres

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On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, Mike Keitz wrote:

> On Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:55:32 +0300 Harijs Melders <RemoveMEharisTakeThisOuTspamLNT.LV> writes:
>
> >If seriously, to which NTSC VHS I must transcode PAL signal for
> >viewing in=
> > US-
> >NTSC 3.58 or NTSC 4.43?
>
> They use 3.58 in the USA, Canada, and I think Japan.  Where is 4.43 used?
>  I have a TV that can receive both NTSC's and PAL.  It also works on 120
> or 240V and requires only one phase.  These TV's are sold to US military
> people in the "PX" stores so they can be used worldwide.  Older military
> TV's included a fourth mode called "SECAM" but I guess that isn't used
> much, or is expensive to implement.

*WOW* is America big ;)

Take it from someone who does this daily:

- US and Canada, Japan, S. Korea (hehehe) and most of Central America as
well as the East Coast of South America use NTSC 3.58. Same for ex-US
possesions, as well as present ones. There are versions of course. Why
would everyone use the same sound carrier when there are so many
frequencies to choose from ;)

- Most of South America and parts of Japan use various subversions of
PAL, in particular S. America uses PAL N and M with 3.58 color (ghhhh).

- France (the whole of it), the whole ex-Russia, India, and places in the
Middle East that were under Russian (French) influence, as well as most
ex-Russian sattelite states in Eastern Europe often use SECAM and MESECAM.
This included East Germany, which switched recently to the West German PAL
in more than one way, with which occasion several million TVs that were
SECAM only became junk overnight (almost).

- All the remaining countries in Western Europe, and Romaina in Eastern
Europe, as well as Scandinavia plus China use PAL (the most sane system
imho. Bias warning: we have PAL).

- Africa is divided nicely between PAL and SECAM, such that almost no 2
neighboring states have the same system.

Note that I am not a walking encyclopedia, I simply read a map pinned on
the wall here.

Also, here is a piece of friendly free advice: If a TV or VCR says it's
'multi-system' and for some reason this makes you fancy it, check what
exactly they mean by saying that. Multi means more than one, period. I
have a SONY KV-1484 TV/monitor at work that does 14 (!) systems, and
sometimes I need a converter !. Pay *special* attention to little details,
such as: whether the sound system can span 5.5, 6.0 and 6.5 MHz (mono),
whether the PAL is M, N or <blank> (the original), 3.58 or 4.43, whether
the NTSC is NTSC or NTSC 4.43, whether the SECAM is MESECAM etc., and if
you happen to buy a VCR or TV in the UK know that the Brits have decided
that they don't need VHF at all, so there isn't any, and all their tuners
have 2 missing lugs <G>. It must have been a Scottish decision.

hope this helps,

       Peter

1998\07\23@041107 by White Horse Design

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At 14:32 22/07/98 -0400, you wrote:
>On Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:55:32 +0300 Harijs Melders <spamBeGoneharisspamBeGonespamLNT.LV> writes:
>
>>If seriously, to which NTSC VHS I must transcode PAL signal for
>>viewing in=
>> US-
>>NTSC 3.58 or NTSC 4.43?
>
>They use 3.58 in the USA, Canada, and I think Japan.  Where is 4.43 used?
> I have a TV that can receive both NTSC's and PAL.  It also works on 120
>or 240V and requires only one phase.  These TV's are sold to US military
>people in the "PX" stores so they can be used worldwide.  Older military
>TV's included a fourth mode called "SECAM" but I guess that isn't used
>much, or is expensive to implement.

Used in France.

Regards

Adrian

WWW    WWW   Adrian Gothard
WWW WW WWW   White Horse Design
WWWWWWWWWW   +44-385-970009 (Mobile/SMS), +44-118-962-8913/4 (voice/fax)
WWWW  WWWW   TakeThisOuTwhdEraseMEspamspam_OUTzetnet.co.uk, http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/whd
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Developers of GPS satellite-based tracking systems for vehicles/helicopters

1998\07\23@131036 by Nigel Goodwin

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In message <Pine.LNX.3.95.980723005315.1614F-100000@plp4>, Peter L.
Peres <RemoveMEplpspamTakeThisOuTACTCOM.CO.IL> writes
>Also, here is a piece of friendly free advice: If a TV or VCR says it's
>'multi-system' and for some reason this makes you fancy it, check what
>exactly they mean by saying that. Multi means more than one, period. I
>have a SONY KV-1484 TV/monitor at work that does 14 (!) systems, and
>sometimes I need a converter !. Pay *special* attention to little details,
>such as: whether the sound system can span 5.5, 6.0 and 6.5 MHz (mono),
>whether the PAL is M, N or <blank> (the original), 3.58 or 4.43, whether
>the NTSC is NTSC or NTSC 4.43, whether the SECAM is MESECAM etc., and if
>you happen to buy a VCR or TV in the UK know that the Brits have decided
>that they don't need VHF at all, so there isn't any, and all their tuners
>have 2 missing lugs <G>. It must have been a Scottish decision.

The reason for no VHF TV in Britain is quite simple, the VHF band I &
III frequencies were already in use, and so couldn't be used for 625
line TV.

For those who don't know, Britain used to have a 405 line B/W TV system
originally using Band I for BBC only - this goes back to before the
second world war. When a second channel appeared (ITV) there was no
channel space available, so ITV was launched on Band III. Obviously at
this point most TV receivers were Band I only - many early ones were TRF
sets, made to work on one channel only!. This produced an outbreak of
ITV convertors, down shifting Band III down to Band I.

The next TV channel to be launched was BBC2, mid-late 60's?, and again,
there was no available channel space on Band I or III - so BBC2 used UHF
Band IV/V. Also this was the first 625 line channel in the UK, so this
obviously required a totally different TV, the so-called 'dual-standard'
TV. Being 625 line also allowed the use of colour, and early colour TV's
were also dual-standard - you got BBC2 in 625 line colour, and BBC1 and
ITV in 405 line B/W.

About 1969 three station UHF transmissions started, this allowed colour
on all 3 channels :-). Once this happened all colour sets dropped the
405 line standard, although B/W dual-standard sets remained available
for quite a few years. The original band plan for UHF included the
capability for a 4th channel, and this was added in the 80's?.

The 405 line service remained available for many more years, I think it
was dropped in the late 1980's - by that time pretty well all the 405
receivers were gone :-).

Perhaps at that point it would have been a good idea to release
BandI/III for TV expansion, but instead it was released to commercial
mobile radio use :-(. Considering they have now added a 5th channel
(using the space around CH36 allocated for VCR's) and will be shortly
starting a terrestrial digital network (by slotting them in one channel
away from existing transmitters!), I can't help feeling that doing this
on Band I/III would have been a better idea!.
--

Nigel.

       /--------------------------------------------------------------\
       | Nigel Goodwin   | Internet : nigelgEraseMEspam.....lpilsley.demon.co.uk     |
       | Lower Pilsley   | Web Page : http://www.lpilsley.demon.co.uk |
       | Chesterfield    |                                            |
       | England         |                                            |
       \--------------------------------------------------------------/

1998\07\25@173708 by Alex Torres

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>>TV's included a fourth mode called "SECAM" but I guess that isn't used
>>much, or is expensive to implement.
>
>SECAM is for France and its colonies.


And for ALL exUSSR, some E.Europe and African countries.

BTW, SECAM is more noise-resistent then PAL and the more so then NTSC.

==================================
Alex Torres, Kharkov, Ukraine (exUSSR)
E-Mail: EraseMEaltorspamgeocities.com
2:461/28 FidoNet
Home Page: www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6311
ICQ UIN  11083325

1998\07\25@174733 by Mike Massen

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At 07:27 PM 25/7/98 +0300, you wrote:

>BTW, SECAM is more noise-resistent then PAL and the more so then NTSC.

I always thought the French were a bit loud ;)


Rgds ~`:o)

Mike
Perth, Western Australia
Products/Personal/Client web area at http://www.wantree.com.au/~erazmus
(Current feature - trip to Malaysia to install equipment in jungle power
site)

Some say there is no magic but, all things begin with thought then it becomes
academic, then some poor slob works out a practical way to implement all that
theory, this is called Engineering - for most people another form of magic.

1998\07\27@133611 by Martin McCormick

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Nigel Goodwin writes:
>For those who don't know, Britain used to have a 405 line B/W TV system
>originally using Band I for BBC only - this goes back to before the
>second world war. When a second channel appeared (ITV) there was no
>channel space available, so ITV was launched on Band III. Obviously at
>this point most TV receivers were Band I only - many early ones were TRF
>sets, made to work on one channel only!. This produced an outbreak of
>ITV convertors, down shifting Band III down to Band I.

       This is all quite interesting.  Some older sets in the United
States had IF chains that operated in the 21 MHZ range, but the vast
majority of sets that one runs across now or would have run across for
the last 30 or 40 years have an IF in the 41-47 MHZ range which is
exactly what Nigel is describing.  The interesting thing is that the
Band-I signals from the BBC were sometimes audible in North America
during peaks of high Sun spot activity.  The audio of those BBC
transmitters was AM and was found around 41.5 or so megahertz.  The
video carriers were around 45 or so megahertz.  Most television tuners
produce an IF which still follows that scheme even though NTSC
television signals always have the video 4.5 MHZ below the sound
carrier.  The sound has always been frequency-modulated for NTSC.
All the T.V. tuners I have run across seem to use high-side carrier
injection so the IF output is frequency-inverted from the true
relationship between the video and aural carriers.  That is my point
that the tuners today still produce their output on what would have
been the old BBC Band-I channel.

       This, by the way, would have been channel 1 in the United
states had we ever had a channel 1, but it was decided after World War
II to use 41-47 MHZ for two-way radio so lots of state police agencies
and plumbing companies, etc got to hear all that video junk floating
around any time the ionosphere opened up to England and France.:-)  In
other words, we had Channel 1 but lost it before it was ever used and
that's why your television tuner starts with 2 and not 1.

       I remember hearing BBC1 as late as 1982 or so.  The Solar
Cycle peaks roughly on an eleven-year period so by the time the Band-I
and Band-ii transmitters were shut off around 1985, it was not
possible to receive them from North America.  I kind of miss them, but
the lower VHF frequencies are really not suited well for television
because of Mother Nature's vagaries.  Even our channels 2-6 which run
from 54 through 88 megahertz are clobbered by Sporadic E to the point
of UN usability in mid Summer.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK
OSU Center for Computing and Information Services Data Communications Group

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