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'[OT] micro mini air solenoids'
1999\02\11@152740 by Harrison Cooper

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Anybody have a source (maybe used in robotics?) of a very small air
solenoid.  Needs to be low voltage, low current and low pressure (its just
activating a rod to poke out).  Doing a web search...but not allot of luck
yet...

1999\02\11@181701 by mwalsh

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Harrison Cooper wrote:

> Anybody have a source (maybe used in robotics?) of a very small air
> solenoid.  Needs to be low voltage, low current and low pressure (its just
> activating a rod to poke out).  Doing a web search...but not allot of luck
> yet...

Try Angar Scientific (Subsidiary of ASCO) P/N 339159.

They are a three-way valve and draw about 200 mA @ 12VDC.
100 PSI max.  About 5/8" dia. X 1.5" long (excluding the hose
connections)  I seem to recall that they were reasonably inexpensive
as well.

Mark Walsh

1999\02\15@123238 by John Payson

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|Anybody have a source (maybe used in robotics?) of a very small air
|solenoid.  Needs to be low voltage, low current and low pressure (its just
|activating a rod to poke out).  Doing a web search...but not allot of luck
|yet...

Pipe organs tend to use fairly efficient valves (consider that hundreds may need
to be activated at once...).  Typically they
use a small "pilot valve" which operates a larger bellows-oper-
ated valve.  Most pipe organs operate on about 10" (H2O) of pres-
sure [if my math works out, that's 25.4g/cm2 or about 0.36psi].
I don't know whether any organ makers would sell you the solenoid
valves they use, but it might be a starting point...

1999\02\16@141649 by Brian Whittaker

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Hi
Modern automobiles use a 12 volt low pressure vacuum valve in the smog control
system. I have used them for low pressure 10Lbs applications. American Science
And Surplus used to sell them
http://www.sciplus.com/

. . . Brian
--------------------------------------------
Brian Whittaker SVSKITS.COM
Voice: 510-582-6602 FAX: 510-291-2218
spam_OUTSVS_KITSTakeThisOuTspamMSN.COM URL: http://www.svskits.com


> {Original Message removed}

1999\02\20@082420 by paulb

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John Payson wrote:

> Pipe organs tend to use fairly efficient valves (consider that
> hundreds may need to be activated at once...).

 Hundreds?  I don't think so!  Perhaps 20 or 30 in a pinch.

>  Typically they use a small "pilot valve" which operates a larger
> bellows-operated valve.

 Only for the bass pipes.

> I don't know whether any organ makers would sell you the solenoid
> valves they use, but it might be a starting point...

 The only ones I've seen are relay-like ones which live *inside* the
plenum and lift a little lid from the outlet hole to the pipe.  They
are a very "raw" solenoid or armature assembly, quite dissimilar to the
valves used in, say, a car engine control system.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\02\20@143841 by Gerhard Fiedler

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At 23:52 02/20/99 +1000, Paul B. Webster VK2BZC wrote:
>John Payson wrote:
>
>> Pipe organs tend to use fairly efficient valves (consider that
>> hundreds may need to be activated at once...).
>
>  Hundreds?  I don't think so!  Perhaps 20 or 30 in a pinch.

"hundreds" might be a bit high, but "hundred" is not so far off: 10 keys
with 10 registers each is not an everyday occasion, but not out of the
question.

ge

1999\02\24@125332 by John Payson

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> Pipe organs tend to use fairly efficient valves (consider that
> hundreds may need to be activated at once...).

|  Hundreds?  I don't think so!  Perhaps 20 or 30 in a pinch.

Beloit College, Eaton Chapel.  If all of the stops/couplers are
engaged, then pressing one key on the great will sound...

 11 pipes in the Choir division, for each of three octaves
 9 pipes on the Great
 9 pipes in the Swell division, for each of three octaves, plus the
   fagot four four octaves

It's been awhile since I've played that organ, so I may be off by
a little bit, but I tally 73 pipes just from pressing a single key!
Playing four keys [e.g. a c# full diminished 7th] would sound 292
pipes.  While that would not necessarily be the most musical-sounding
thing to do, it is not at all inconceivable that an organist on that
organ might engage that many or more pipes while playing a real piece
of music.  And you certainly wouldn't want the organ to poop out just
because someone had too many stops engaged and played too many notes!

>  Typically they use a small "pilot valve" which operates a larger
> bellows-operated valve.

|  Only for the bass pipes.

That depends... according to William Barnes' "The Contemporary Amer-
ican Pipe Organ" [circa 1960 I think] some organ builders used "pilot
valve" arrangements on everything and others on practically nothing.
Austin pipe organs (one of the few makers' chests I've actually looked
inside) use pilot valves, but use a matrix arrangement [there's one
actuator per key, and one per rank.  Only if both actuators are en-
gaged does a pipe's valve open.  Pipes which can be controlled from
other ranks need seperate actuators for that purpose.]  BTW, the
Austin chest is probably the only design I've seen which allows for
maintenance and repair without removing pipes; the organ I saw had a
large hatch in the bottom of the chest, and if an organ repairman was
sufficiently small, they could probably climb entirely inside the
thing!

Another couple interesting notes about pipe organs:

[1] Many organs have some rather large relays [e.g. each coupler
   between manuals controls a 61-pole relay!]  From what I've seen,
   most of these use a small electrically-operated air valve to
   switch a pneumatic actuator which in turn operates the contacts.

[2] Since most pipe organ solenoids require direct current (rather
   than AC) to operate, and since electro-pneumatic pipe organs
   appeared well before the introduction of good solid-state recti-
   fiers, it's not uncommon for organs to run the electrics off a
   generator which is spun by the fan motor.  How's that for line
   isolation?

> I don't know whether any organ makers would sell you the solenoid
> valves they use, but it might be a starting point...

|  The only ones I've seen are relay-like ones which live *inside* the
|plenum and lift a little lid from the outlet hole to the pipe.  They
|are a very "raw" solenoid or armature assembly, quite dissimilar to the
|valves used in, say, a car engine control system.

True, but for some applications they might be useful.

1999\02\25@154703 by paulb

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John Payson wrote:

> I tally 73 pipes just from pressing a single key!  Playing four keys
> [e.g. a c# full diminished 7th] would sound 292 pipes.  While that
> would not necessarily be the most musical-sounding thing to do,

 Hmmm.

> [1] Many organs have some rather large relays [e.g. each coupler
>     between manuals controls a 61-pole relay!]  From what I've seen,
>     most of these use a small electrically-operated air valve to
>     switch a pneumatic actuator which in turn operates the contacts.

 That would be the big ones.  The ones *removed* from the organ of
which I am thinking were about that many poles, but still directly
solenoid actuated.  I fancy some probably use motors...

>     it's not uncommon for organs to run the electrics off a
>     generator which is spun by the fan motor.  How's that for line
>     isolation?

 We now use a SMPSU, similar in size to that in a PC, about 20 amps or
more at 16V.  To muffle its fan, it's been put under the (loft) floor!
(There's lots of cracks in the floor.)

 The mux and demux units are all raw 74HCMOS (presumably, mostly
shift registers or perhaps multiplexers), with a co-ax cable running
between which as far as I have determined, uses a serial protocol with
a clock of about 8 kHz.  The first thing I need to do is make a
bootstrap switch which detects this excitation in the loft and actuates
a SSR to switch on the SMPSU which will lock the SSR on (decrease the
load on the signal line) and of course engage the blower contactor.

 This should replace the second figure-8 cable which presently slaves
the master relay from the console power supply.

 The next trick is to convert the signal data to something recordable
on a PC using presumably, a PIC, and of course vice versa.  The PIC has
too little memory as I see it, to remember the whole organ "state" and
interchange data with, say MIDI format, which would of course be really
neat.

 Oh yes, I also need to put in an interlock to open the swell gate on
shutdown.

 It seems "organ people" are even more conservative than Radio
Amateurs (74HCMOS rather than PICs)!

 The concept of a "reproducing organ" rather amuses me.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\02\25@161453 by Gerhard Fiedler

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At 21:51 02/25/99 +1000, Paul B. Webster VK2BZC wrote:
>  The next trick is to convert the signal data to something recordable
>on a PC using presumably, a PIC, and of course vice versa.  The PIC has
>too little memory as I see it, to remember the whole organ "state" and
>interchange data with, say MIDI format, which would of course be really
>neat.

what do you mean by "organ state"? the sounds selected (i don't know the
proper english word, in german it would be "register")? that shouldn't be
too much, neither to transmit nor to store (eg. in the internal eeprom),
since it's only one bit per sound. and these informations are transmitted
in midi using sysex data, which you can define pretty much as you like. so
if it's about =this= state information, i guess a pic would be more than
enough.

of course, if you want to record midi data for all your organist plays
during his next 2 hour performance, you need somewhat more memory :)  (but
a pic would probably still be good enough to transform the data into midi
and send it to a pc or sequencer -- and back.)

ge

1999\02\25@161502 by Mark Willis

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Paul B. Webster VK2BZC wrote:
> <snipped>
>   The next trick is to convert the signal data to something recordable
> on a PC using presumably, a PIC, and of course vice versa.  The PIC has
> too little memory as I see it, to remember the whole organ "state" and
> interchange data with, say MIDI format, which would of course be really
> neat.
> <snipped>
>   The concept of a "reproducing organ" rather amuses me.
> --
>   Cheers,
>         Paul B.

 Fun project!  Look at the Atmel AT45D081 et al, a megabyte of pretty
fast flash RAM, might help you do this...

 Mark

1999\02\25@162506 by paulb

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Mark Willis wrote:

>   Fun project!  Look at the Atmel AT45D081 et al, a megabyte of pretty
> fast flash RAM, might help you do this...

 Ummm, "flash RAM"?  Is this not an oxymoron?  Is it serial?
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\02\25@163127 by paulb

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Gerhard Fiedler wrote:

> what do you mean by "organ state"? the sounds selected (i don't know
> the proper english word, in german it would be "register")?

 That's exactly what I mean.  It comes out to about one bit per key,
one bit per stop.  I am thinking of the versatile PIC; the 16F84 of
course.  You are probably right insofar as it probably *does* have just
enough registers = 68.  OK, you win.

> neither to transmit nor to store (eg. in the internal eeprom),

 I don't think that's a goer!  Re-writing EEPROM for every key hit
would I expect, wear it out.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\02\25@165346 by Mark Willis

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Paul B. Webster VK2BZC wrote:
>
> Mark Willis wrote:
>
> >   Fun project!  Look at the Atmel AT45D081 et al, a megabyte of pretty
> > fast flash RAM, might help you do this...
>
>   Ummm, "flash RAM"?  Is this not an oxymoron?  Is it serial?
> --
>   Cheers,
>         Paul B.

 Yep, serial clock rate of 10 MHz (AT45D081) and now 15 MHz for the
D161's.  $10 USD for the D081 part, last I priced 'em.  See
www.atmel.com/atmel/cgi/locator5.cgi/atmel/products/locator5.tab
for access to various AT45D161 information <G>  I'll stay on the D161
here:

 There are 2, 528-byte data buffers in the chip (4096 pages of 528
bytes), and only 9 pins total:  Vcc, Gnd, !Chip Select, Serial Clock,
Serial Input, Serial Output, !Write Protect, !Reset, Ready/!Busy.
SOIC-28 form factor.

 You can connect Serial Input and Serial Output together, I'm told
(Trying it pretty soon on my AT45D081's).

 !CS can be hard wired on/off, same for !WP.

 !Reset, connect to your PIC's !MClr pin.

 Leaves you with 3 active pins and some programming to do - Serial
Clocking, Serial Data, and "Hang on, I'm writing to the chip still" for
a max of 15 (Just page write) or 20 (page erase & write) mSec.  I need
to get wired to mine & start coding...

 So you can get near 512 bytes, plus some ECC bits, written at around a
40 pages/second rate, I'd guess, i.e. 20 k bytes/second record rate, for
up to 100 seconds (2 Megabytes.)  Have to be a really *fast* organ
player to need MIDI data stored at 20 kbytes/second (and you could
parallel several IIRC and use !CS addressing off a shift register or
whatever to address several of these chips, IIRC.)

 The 24LC65 is another possibility (those can be paralleled up to 8 on
different addresses easily enough.)

 Mark

1999\02\25@190850 by leo.perretti

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I'm sorry for contributing to an off topic discussion, but I'm seeing
that the discussion about pipe organ valves is growing. I am a pipe
organ restorer, with 20 years of experience, so I believe I can share
some of my experience; in the end, I am on this list because I try to
use PICs for pipe organ applications   ;-).


John Payson wrote:

.........

{Quote hidden}

That's right, but usually the only electrical valves that are in action
are the "actuator per key" and the "actuator per rank". There are
several ways to build a wind-chest; I wouldn't go into details, there
has been a long evolution through the ages, particularly  from the
middle of XIX century on; anyway, the valves that open the air to each
pipe are usually of mechanic or pneumatic type; only relatively few
organs have one electric valve per pipe. This does not signify that the
valves in action are necessarily few when the organ is playing; often,
particularly in large organs, pipe ranks are splitted in several chests,
so, as John righly affirms, when couplers are inserted, each pressed key
causes a number of valves to be actuated.

>BTW, the
>Austin chest is probably the only design I've seen which allows for
>maintenance and repair without removing pipes; the organ I saw had a
>large hatch in the bottom of the chest, and if an organ repairman was
>sufficiently small, they could probably climb entirely inside the
>thing!
>

This is not completely true; all well-done wind chests allow the
repairman to access all of the internal stuff; usually, there is a need
to remove pipes only when they must be dusted, or if the toe board (the
table on which the pipes are placed) is defective.


>Another couple interesting notes about pipe organs:
>
>[1] Many organs have some rather large relays [e.g. each coupler
>    between manuals controls a 61-pole relay!]  From what I've seen,
>    most of these use a small electrically-operated air valve to
>   switch a pneumatic actuator which in turn operates the contacts.
>

Old organs, built before the diffusion of transistors and solid-state
components, may have hundreds of multi-pole relais, arranged in a number
of large metal boxes. One of the problems with those relays is that
their contacts become dirty or fuse because of the blazing when they
open and close. Today's organs use microcontrollers to perform all logic
operations; in fact, the action of the electrical part of an organ is
nothing more than a series of logic operations based upon the dynamic
state of the controls (keys, pedals, stops, knobs); proper signals are
then output to solid state drivers which command the valves. PICs are
well suitable to build organ controllers, because they are quick and
light, and they are able to perform easily operations on bits.

.............

>> I don't know whether any organ makers would sell you the solenoid
>> valves they use, but it might be a starting point...
>
>|  The only ones I've seen are relay-like ones which live *inside* the
>|plenum and lift a little lid from the outlet hole to the pipe.  They
>|are a very "raw" solenoid or armature assembly, quite dissimilar to
the
>|valves used in, say, a car engine control system.
>
>True, but for some applications they might be useful.

Going back to the original query of this thread, the magnets used in
pipe organs generally work as in the following scheme:


                                      /|\
                          C            |
       |     ___________________________
       |    /  ___________!\          B
      \|/  | _|           | \
          A | |   coil    |  \
            |_|           |  pivot
              |___________|



The coil, having a metal core, moves a bent lever A-C-B shaped as in
figure, pivoted in the point C. When the coil is actuated, it attracts
the lever in the point A; being pivoted in the point C, the A end of the
lever moves as the arrow shows, so the B end moves accordingly, and
usually opens (or closes) a pneumatic valve.
The smallest magnets used in pipe organs usually work at 12-18 V, with a
current consumption of more or less 180 mA.The typical dimensions are:
90mm.in length, 20mm. in width and 60mm. in height (comprising some
structures not shown in the scheme).

There are several suppliers in the world, who are happy to sell them if
you pay ;-))
I usually buy the magnets from an Italian supplier, Daminato; there is
also a world renowned supplier in Germany, A. Laukhuff; they have no web
site. I don't know about American suppliers.

Drop an e-mail if you think I can help.

Leonardo Perretti
.....leo.perrettiKILLspamspam@spam@projectpp.it

1999\02\26@010936 by Gerhard Fiedler

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At 08:26 02/26/99 +1000, Paul B. Webster VK2BZC wrote:
>> what do you mean by "organ state"? the sounds selected (i don't know
>> the proper english word, in german it would be "register")?
>
>  That's exactly what I mean.  It comes out to about one bit per key,
>one bit per stop.  I am thinking of the versatile PIC; the 16F84 of
>course.  You are probably right insofar as it probably *does* have just
>enough registers = 68.  OK, you win.
>
>> neither to transmit nor to store (eg. in the internal eeprom),
>
>  I don't think that's a goer!  Re-writing EEPROM for every key hit
>would I expect, wear it out.

i guess i don't understand what you want to do. if you want to store organ
setups (that's what i meant you meant with "state" :), the keys are
irrelevant, and the setups change rarely enough to be stored in eeprom
(even if you accompany the player's actions with the stops in "real time").

if you want to store play sequences, that is everything the player does,
stops and keys (including time information), you of course need a different
and much bigger memory -- that would be almost something like a (midi)
sequencer. but in this case i'd probably go with an off-the-shelf midi
sequencer (or a pc) and use the pic only for translation of the
organ-internal signals into midi. which needs no storage at all in the pic
(except for some buffer). without a rather complicated user interface you'd
be limited to record a sequence and then play it back, and that's it...
which doesn't seem very useful to me. a midi interface for the organ, on
the other hand, seems to be something much more interesting.

(i used to play organ, even a "real" one, many years ago. since then i've
been almost only on the piano and on midi keyboards... like fake hammonds :)

ge

1999\02\26@062247 by paulb

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Gerhard Fiedler wrote:

> I guess I don't understand what you want to do.  If you want to store
> organ setups (that's what I meant you meant with "state" :), the keys
> are irrelevant, and the setups change rarely enough to be stored in
> eeprom (even if you accompany the player's actions with the stops in
> "real time").

 That's the "piston" memory, performed in the console itself and
entirely separate from the MUX between console and loft.  Curiously
enough (it is quite recent) it uses what I consider a "serious"
microcomputer - a 6809!

> if you want to store play sequences, that is everything the player
> does, stops and keys (including time information), you of course need
> a different and much bigger memory -- that would be almost something
> like a (midi) sequencer.  But in this case i'd probably go with an
> off-the-shelf midi sequencer (or a pc) and use the pic only for
> translation of the organ-internal signals into midi. which needs no
> storage at all in the pic (except for some buffer).

 That's exactly what I am describing.  The first buffer has to store
the instantaneous "state" of the organ as it appears down the serial
interface, comparing the current to the last and encoding changes as
they are seen.

 It may however be that more than one key/ stop alters from one "sweep"
or "strobe" to the next, so that you are faced with either accepting
only one change per "sweep", which would be very poor, or storing a
"current" and a "previous" sweep and using a separate process to
compare the two, encoding differences to MIDI and updating "previous" to
match "current" as these are interpreted.

 Very much like a debounce algorithm.

 In "conversation" with John Payson, he has suggested that there may be
300 or so (305 in his example) bits of data representing the organ.
This feels about right to me - I haven't actually counted the pins on
the MUX - and at the 8 kbit/S data rate I believe I measured on the CRO,
would be 26 sweeps per second, perhaps 20 or so allowing for synch.

 In 1/20 second, you can fit quite a few MIDI commands, so this would
seem the way to go.  A FIFO buffer for MIDI output data would probably
not be necessary.

 The reverse would probably need only one buffer, written by MIDI on-
the-fly, and simultaneously read back to the serial datastream.

> without a rather complicated user interface you'd be limited to record
> a sequence and then play it back, and that's it...

 As I said, a "reproducing organ"!

 BTW, there are auxiliary control lines in the MUX-DEMUX set, eight of
these presently control the swell gate servo in "bargraph" mode.
Obviously could be expanded/ lines reclaimed by conversion to 4-bit
Gray code in a PIC!
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

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