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'[OT] Teaching driving'
2011\06\08@183803 by YES NOPE9

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>
>
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> I'm giving my son driving practice. Wide straight roads are no use at
> all as practice fot the test. I direct him around awkward parts of city
> with nasty hill start junctions, busy crossroads and roundabouts with no
> traffic lights etc.


I took my kids out in bad weather ( snowing ) in isolated areas and asked them to slam on the brakes and spin the tires and spin the steering wheel.  So they got used to how it feels.

I pointed out to them how you can 'read' other drivers and guess when they are going to make an announced move.  I told them that their job was to make moves that other drivers could see coming.  I said it was selfish to use turn signals and such since the driver is really trying to preserve their own life.

I would be interested in how other PIClisters teach driving.
99guspuppet    99drivin

2011\06\08@185658 by Michael Watterson

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On 08/06/2011 23:38, YES NOPE9 wrote:
> I would be interested in how other PIClisters teach driving.

I let the trained Driving instructor do it mostly. I just give some reversing round corner, clutch control and parallel parking instruction at disused industrial area to start and then just let the person practice on the road AFTER they have had 10 lessons. I offer minimal advice other than choosing awkward routes. If I think they are making too many mistakes they are "banned" from practice with me till they have had more lessons.

I have had many years ago lessons and now so many years driving I probably do most things unconsciously. Since I have not had lessons in giving lessons, nor experience teaching people to drive, I let the expert do it.

2011\06\08@190749 by Carl Denk

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Same thing, find difficult driving conditions, weather, traffic, terrain, whatever. Up and down steep winding hills, using OD lockout, lower gears, down hill. Turn around by backing into driveway so you have good vision and ability to accelerate quickly to match coming traffic. I will tell them if I say something like dog, animal ball (kid's rolling into street), they are to take some emergency type action, like brake hard, change lanes (make sure it is clear, of course should always know where near traffic is, and not have to look first), or whatever. Watch cross streets for someone not stopping at stop sign. Driving is a full time task, no other things including eating, drinking (well when traffic is light and organized, a quick), leave alone texting or dialing a phone, or even the distraction of talking on a hands free. Should sit in vehicle with owner's manual and memorize every control location by touch. Nothing like needing windshield washers at night in traffic, etc. I could go on for hours. Oh, one last, be able to change a tire in the dark quickly, especially a female. Number 1, is to get out of being a sitting duck for harm by doing it self. Both daughters, before taking a car alone, had to demonstrate changing a tire on a Ford Escort, and Ford Bronco full size SUV.

On 6/8/2011 6:38 PM, YES NOPE9 wrote:
>>
>>
>> I'm giving my son driving practice. Wide straight roads are no use at
>> all as practice fot the test. I direct him around awkward parts of city
>> with nasty hill start junctions, busy crossroads and roundabouts with no
>> traffic lights etc.
>>      
>
> I took my kids out in bad weather ( snowing ) in isolated areas and asked them to slam on the brakes and spin the tires and spin the steering wheel.  So they got used to how it feels.
>
> I pointed out to them how you can 'read' other drivers and guess when they are going to make an announced move.  I told them that their job was to make moves that other drivers could see coming.  I said it was selfish to use turn signals and such since the driver is really trying to preserve their own life.
>
> I would be interested in how other PIClisters teach driving.
>   99guspuppet    99driving
>

2011\06\08@195105 by Carl Denk

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I don't know, undoubtedly there are good instructors out there, but time is limited, and some of the conditions that experience is needed, just isn't there at lessons.
Was said:
> I have had many years ago lessons and now so many years driving I
> probably do most things unconsciously. Since I have not had lessons in
> giving lessons, nor experience teaching people to drive, I let the
> expert do it.
>    This is more about passing on the years of experience driving different vehicles to the next generation. The instructors can handle the book work, and basic skills. The fine tuning of the driving skills. Sometimes it takes some thinking to remember all the things you do by reflex without thinking. As you drive with the new driver, think how you might of handled a situation differently, discuss it. i.e. When merging onto a multilane highway, take possession (merge early as safely possible) of your lane as early a possible. Make it fun, explain why things are the way they are.

Teach to look at the vehicle every time as one walks up to it. Look for low tires, damage, leaking fluids, etc. I have with granddaughter recently, had someone spill water under car, and put a piece of yellow tape on a tire thread as examples. Under hood looks also, check fluids, etc..

2011\06\08@195541 by Bob Blick

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On Wed, 08 Jun 2011 16:38 -0600, "YES NOPE9"  wrote:

> I would be interested in how other PIClisters teach driving.

Driver's training in Finland:

In Finland, the car driver's training can be obtained either in a
private driving school or given by a near relative who has a driver's
license. If the person is trained by a relative, the relative must
obtain a special instructor's permit and have a car fitted and inspected
with an extra set of brake pedals for the front passenger. The training
for B class license requires 30 hours of instructed driving, including a
spell on a slippery driving course, and 20 theory lessons. After this,
the person must pass a computerized theory test and a driving test in
city traffic with a minimum length of 30 minutes. C class training is
similar, but longer.

from Wikipedia.

If you want to win, get a Finn :)

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web

2011\06\08@231758 by YES NOPE9

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I appreciate all the comments I have read since I am considering writing a booklet similar to what Bob Pease wrote.  I look forward to more comments from PIClisters.

Over the course of 47 years of driving ( I started at age 13 although I did not drive on a regular basis until I was 15.5 years old )....... I have gone through phases.  First I was fascinated with driving , then I got bored and was really bad at paying attention.  For the last 10 years I have regained my interest in driving ( although I drive much less than before ).  My interest now is in analyzing everything about my driving and those around me.

As I drive I imagine what I would do if the car in front of me suddenly stopped.... where would I go and at what speed.  What is the car next to me likely to do..... Am I in the blind spots of other cars.  How can I make life easier for other drivers ?  I notice that maybe 10% of the drivers are really nuts.  Then there is another 10% who are extremely congenial and will let you have space to change lanes and wave and seem to enjoy the process.

Often I let frustrated drivers go past me ..... I go out of my way to get them in front of me rather than on my rear.  I think it will be a really interesting experience to drive with "googlized" vehicles ..... what kind of driving strategies will they adopt ?
99guspuppet     99drivin

2011\06\09@021150 by Ruben Jönsson

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> I could go on for hours. Oh, one last, be able to change a tire in the
> dark quickly, especially a female. Number 1, is to get out of being a
> sitting duck for harm by doing it self. Both daughters, before taking a
> car alone, had to demonstrate changing a tire on a Ford Escort, and Ford
> Bronco full size SUV.
>
After having my tires (wheels) mounted by the shop, I had to use a 1m lever and a sturdy tire iron and even then had a hard time getting some of the nuts off, I thought to myself that I was lucky beeing in the back yard and not on the side of a dark road with a flat tire only equiped with the small tire iron that came with the car. Even with the much larger and stronger tire iron I could not have done it without some sort of lever (which I don't have with me in the car).

/Ruben
==============================
Ruben Jönsson
AB Liros Electronic
Box 9124, 200 39 Malmö, Sweden
TEL INT +46 40142078
FAX INT +46 40947388
spam_OUTrubenTakeThisOuTspampp.sbbs.se
==============================

2011\06\09@021223 by cdb

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:: Driver's training in Finland:

I thought Finland also included a basic mechanics course for car maintenance in case of a breakdown?

Colin
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2011\06\09@040411 by alan.b.pearce

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> and have a car fitted and inspected with an extra set
> of brake pedals for the front passenger.

According to our local consumer watchdog TV program the Citroen C3 comes with this as standard ...


-- Scanned by iCritical.

2011\06\09@083436 by Carl Denk

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A tip: Put the wrench on the nut (or bolt head) with the handle approximately horizontal, then put your foot on the end of the wrench handle, grasp the fender wheel opening top with hand, push down with foot, and pull up with hand. This puts your own weight plus the force of the arm into the force. I always check the bolts by hand if someone else has been near tightening them. And if they are overly tight, or loose (I am checking for loose! also), that's the last of my business they will see. Over tightening can distort wheels, brake discs or drums, and other parts, not to ignore the possibility of over stressing the bots to the point they may break in the future. It's not a good day when one of your own tires passes you at highway speeds. :(

On 6/9/2011 2:11 AM, Ruben Jönsson wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2011\06\09@083748 by Carl Denk

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On 6/8/2011 11:17 PM, YES NOPE9 wrote:
>
> As I drive I imagine what I would do if the car in front of me suddenly stopped.... where would I go and at what speed.  What is the car next to me likely to do..... Am I in the blind spots of other cars.  How can I make life easier for other drivers ?  I notice that maybe 10% of the drivers are really nuts.  Then there is another 10% who are extremely congenial and will let you have space to change lanes and wave and seem to enjoy the process.
>    This is part of what I eluded to, in passing experience on to the next generation. Many funny stories that may not be that funny, but could have been tragic

2011\06\09@091020 by alan.b.pearce

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> I always check the bolts by hand if someone else has been near
> tightening them. And if they are overly tight, or loose (I am
> checking for loose! also), that's the last of my business they will
> see.
My local 'national chain tyre shop' uses a torque wrench to finally tighten the wheel nuts after using an air gun to spin them on. I suspect they have the air gun set with its clutch low on its torque setting so the torque wrench does do the last bit, and not just click on an over tight nut.
-- Scanned by iCritical.

2011\06\09@102601 by PICdude

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I've always known (phrased that way since I can't remember where I  first learned that) that it's bad to use a pneumatic/ratcheting wrench  on wheel lugs (as the big chain shops do here in the U.S.) as it  over-tightens the lugs.  I've been unable to remove a wheel before and  thankfully I was a home where I could get a pipe on it.

Taught my sister to change a tire a couple decades ago, and not sure  how she would've managed, considering she's about 5ft and 100lbs.

Cheers,
-Neil.




Quoting Ruben Jönsson <.....rubenKILLspamspam.....pp.sbbs.se>:

{Quote hidden}

>

2011\06\09@103502 by PICdude

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Quoting YES NOPE9 <yesspamspam_OUTnope9.com>:

> ...  I  notice that maybe 10% of the drivers are really nuts.  Then  
> there is  another 10% who are extremely congenial and will let you  
> have space  to change lanes and wave and seem to enjoy the process.
> ...

Depends on where you're at.  I've lived in a number of different  places and can clearly see a difference between how people drive.   Here in South Florida, people are very rude.  I'd say 99% of the time  when I put on a turn signal to change lanes, the driver in the other  lane will rush up to ensure I can't get in front of them.  And a cop  recently did this to me too.

Another fear of mine is the traffic-signal cameras that have started  popping up everywhere.  I stopped at one recently (harder than normal  stop, but not like an emergency) and a huge truck behind me could not  stop -- he tried, then floored it and went around me, and hit the kerb  on the other side of the intersection.  It's only a matter of time  before I get rear-ended due to this.  I'd be willing to bet that the  yellow lights don't allow proper time for some heavy but legal-weight  and legally-maintained vehicles to stop in time.

Cheers,
-Neil.

2011\06\09@194829 by Antonio Benci

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My dad started my brother and myself off in a long wheel base courier van. Sitting way forward did not make it easier but much more difficult negotiating turns, parking and generally being aware of your surroundings.

After gaining our licences we both did CAMs accredited advanced driving courses as my brother decided to financially ruin himself by getting into rally sport :)

What we've learnt was invaluable when it came to negotiating difficult driving conditions.

When my younger sister was ready to start driving we both took turns to teach her the best practices BEFORE she even was allowed onto ANY public road. This involved learning how to "feel" the cars attitude and what to do when the car misbehaved.

After that it was into mid city peak how traffic as often as possible to learn how to "read" the traffic and other drivers.

After 20 years of driving she has never had an accident and has never had any traffic infringements.

Myself, after 30 years of driving "in all conditions", I've had three serious accidents but luckily I've walked away from each one and I believe what I have learn't and practised attributed to my survival. For each accident, each car was not resplendant with all of these new safety appointments such as ABS, ESC, and such.

The way I see it, driver education  must include not only the basic skills to pass the test but also advanced skills training. No new drive can possibly have the skills to react to an unplanned road situation.

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2011\06\13@070457 by Philip Pemberton

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On 09/06/11 15:34, PICdude wrote:
> Depends on where you're at.  I've lived in a number of different
> places and can clearly see a difference between how people drive.
> Here in South Florida, people are very rude.  I'd say 99% of the time
> when I put on a turn signal to change lanes, the driver in the other
> lane will rush up to ensure I can't get in front of them.  And a cop
> recently did this to me too.

Try Leeds sometime.

Drive around Harehills and parts of Roundhay and you might as well be writing a suicide note. Most people seem to treat driving as a "them vs. us" situation, and act accordingly. Jumping red lights, amber-jumping (accelerating when the light goes from green to amber), cutting in without signalling, and tailgating are all commonplace.

Last I heard, Harehills had the highest incidence of uninsured and/or unlicensed drivers in West Yorkshire... (no prizes for guessing where the main DSA driving test centre for Leeds is!)

Even had some little yob throw a bunch of carpet tacks on the road while I was in the middle of a driving test. Blew out the back near-side tyre... yeesh. "Test failed: vehicle unsuitable for driving test."

I haven't had much luck with driving tutors either. £6k in lessons and tests, four tutors, two theory tests, nine failed practical tests (plus the "vehicle failure") and I've called it a day. I think I'll stick to the trains...

> Another fear of mine is the traffic-signal cameras that have started
> popping up everywhere.

Geez, those things are evil. And the speed cameras. The contrast in statistics is quite amusing: the "Safety Camera Partnerships" are howling about how speedtraps are a good thing, and how they reduce accidents. Problem is, RTAs have been on a downward trend for years. Correlation != causation.

In some cases, the cameras have actually CAUSED accidents as people slam on the brakes just before reaching them.... Yes you can drop 20MPH in a couple of seconds, but God help the guy behind you!

I'm going to argue that there are plenty of circumstances where *speeding up* is the correct way to avoid a collision (usually with a vehicle behind you) or at least buy a few extra fractions of a second. Indeed, in some road conditions (IIRC ice is one of them) speeding up is the easiest way to regain control of the vehicle -- applying the brakes will make you spin out.

Dealing with tailgaters, however, is easy: slow down. WAY, WAY down. Somewhere around 20MPH is good :)

-- Phil.
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