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'[OT] A plea for focus. . .'
1999\09\25@062649 by Michael Lee

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----- Original Message -----
From: Randy Brumbaugh <spam_OUTbrumbaugTakeThisOuTspamPACBELL.NET>
To: <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, September 24, 1999 5:40 PM
Subject: A plea for focus. . .


> 1.  Only send to the list things related to PIC processors, support tools
> and projects.  Ignore anything not related.
>
> 2.  Try to be concise -- remember people have to read it, and most of us
> are busy.  Put something descriptive on the subject line. If you are
> sending a follow-up in a thread, include the original subject so people
can
> easily see if it is a thread of interest.
>
> 3.  Thanks for all those who have sent relevant and useful PIC info -- it
> makes the list worth reading.
>

Randy,

I quite agree with your comments.  Both usenet groups and lists such as this
tend to get hi-jacked by the more 'vocal' clique who see it as their place
to abuse the forum as a kind of chat room.  Anyone who dares to call this
practice into question is then publically ridiculed.    Still, empty vessels
make the most noise, don't they?

To avoid further spurious postings, please send all flames to me personaly.

Mick

1999\09\25@111124 by Nick Taylor

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Michael Lee wrote:
[snip]
> Randy,
> I quite agree with your comments.  Both usenet groups and lists such as this
> tend to get hi-jacked by the more 'vocal' clique who see it as their place
> to abuse the forum as a kind of chat room.  Anyone who dares to call this
> practice into question is then publically ridiculed.    Still, empty vessels
> make the most noise, don't they?
> To avoid further spurious postings, please send all flames to me personaly.
> Mick

You're way out of line, Mick ... the large majority of the responses
defending
the occasional off topic post were from the very people who contribute
the
most to the technical content of the PIC List.  I suggest you look at
the
list archives for the posting history of the "empty vessels" whom you
seem
to think are publicly ridiculing the original post.

- Nick -

1999\09\25@124010 by Bob Blick

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------- private message -------
Hi Mick,

No flames here, I agree with you completely. However, I've given up trying
to change things. There are some good minds here, but also a lot of the "in
the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king". Example: Wagner's post
about magnetic shielding. Clearly the man is quite uneducated, but lots of
people will defend his right to clog the list(clearly he has no life)
including Andy Kunz, who has written some good code but is too lazy to
share it, instead he chooses to be grumpy and unhelpful.  oops, please
don't repeat anything I've said here!

Best regards,
Bob

http://www.bobblick.com/

1999\09\25@130050 by Jim Paul

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To All,

I have sat back and listened to all this dialog about what should and
shouldn't be sent to this list.
Now I have to interject my 2 cents worth.  From my point of view and as far
as I'm concerned, I
get enough value from the WHEAT of this list, that all the CHAFF in
inconsequential.  I usually
enjoy reading the OT posts.  Sometimes, a post will go on adnausiam, but
for the most part,
they peter out shortly.  And, I believe I contribute to this list
constructively when I post a response
to a valid question.  Otherwise, generally I sit back and listen.  Most of
the time, the OT posts are
interesting enough for me to pay to attention anyway.  So, the bottom line
from me is OT posts are
okay.  The general value of the questions and answers to valid questions
more than make up
for the noise in the signal.  And if you have a valid question, where else
but here can you get a
quicker and more accurate answer, not to mention that if there isn't a clear
answer, you get a list
of possible answers that you can pick and choose from, or implement all of
until your problem
is solved.    So, if OT post aren't your cup of tea, you can either endure
them or go somewhere else.
This IS NOT A FLAME.  Just a bit of fact and some opinion from me and me
alone.  I'm done now.
Have a good day.


Regards,


Jim




{Original Message removed}

1999\09\25@214253 by Wagner Lipnharski

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In all my professional training and teaching, the most valuable
information exchange happened (probably) during the coffee break, not
during the classroom section itself, when people had the opportunity to
level questions and answers without interrupting a speech or
presentation.

I already participated in a training section based on that factor, when
coffee breaks were induced every hour and they last 30 minutes each...
it was served in another room, and other than juices, cakes, cookies and
milk they served plenty of paper, pencil, literature and a black (white)
boards for drawings and fast explanations.  I don't need to say that
lots of people never return from the break to the main room, since the
discussions and technical stuff being explained there were much more
interesting and useful.

I think about [OT] as the coffee room, where no obligation to the
subject is imposed, and you can listen (or read) if you want, but in
general everybody pays attention and learn something.  The best example
of that was when a well internationally known IBM visionary scientist
went to our building to talk to 200 people about the new age of light
communication mainframes (S/390), it took one hour, then the coffee
break took another hour talking about the new tag identification chips
(it was in 1994 or 95) to be used widely and substitute bar codes,
automate stores and tremendously speed up inventories, help to locate
lost things even in your house.  Everybody returned (non-programmed
section) to the main room for another 2 hours to talk about this new
chip and its future applications (widely used during the last 4 years in
the Orlando's highways tolls, hospital badges, etc.)... which section do
you believe was more productive?.. which one do you believe ended up
with almost 30% more audience?

Now, why am I talking about it? just because I lost the count of how
many long [OT] thread I started here, and I feel responsible for them
completely.  Unfortunately one of them, months ago, turned and ended up
in a nasty religion discussion, not my fault, but I feel guilty anyway.
You can not imagine how many "silent" this-list-readers did learn
something about magnetism and moto-continue machines last week, I don't
need them to raise their hands, I know they are there, how? because I
did it by myself for so many years, invisible, reading, listening and
learning, still doing it.  Fortunate are those who did born with all the
universe knowledge in their brains, I was not one of them, even my poor
English still very hard as a third language.

As I already said before, I believe that [OT] is as much important as
the main subject at *any* discussion list, while the main subject is the
back bone that holds the list. [OT]s should be related to the main
subject somehow, you can scan the archives and try to find about fishing
or sports... Of course you can not agree, it is your choice and right,
but try to live and practice only what you did learn in school,
including personal hygiene (that you need to wash your hands before to
eat, brush your teeth, take a daily shower, comb your hair, and so on)
and you will ended up with your toilet paper in your hands without
knowing how to use it, and *that* is so much important to know, isn't?

:)
Wagner.

1999\09\28@172741 by Randy Brumbaugh

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Ahhh . . . Wagner sees the light (or at least we agree on some points).  .
. I apologize for snipping so much of Wagner's posting below, but wanted to
minimize the bandwith usage and don't think I have misrepresented the context.

>coffee breaks were induced every hour and they last 30 minutes each...
>it was served in another room,
[SNIP]
Yes, in ANOTHER ROOM.  That is what I meant -- these discussions are
valuable, perhaps interesting, and have their place -- in ANOTHER ROOM.

>  I don't need to say that
>lots of people never return from the break to the main room, since the
>discussions and technical stuff being explained there were much more
>interesting and useful.
Probably true, but the point is people could choose -- one or both rooms.
Imagine if everybody was in one room.  Little discussion clusters would
form where topics were discussed.  But then some people start discussing
unrelated things.  The room becomes crowded and noisy.  Would it be crazy
to ask those discussing unrelated things to step into the new room next
door, free to return whenever they wished?

>I think about [OT] as the coffee room, where no obligation to the
>subject is imposed
[OT] as another room-- what a good idea!  My point is that there are
hundreds (maybe thousands) of mail lists around.  Instead of one huge list
with topics seperated by subject lines, similar interests are grouped to
help manage the traffic.
My plea was not to stop all the OT discussions (and yes some are pretty
interesting), but to give them enough importance to merit their own list.
Any of us could subscribe to one or both.

>Of course you can not agree, it is your choice and right,
>but try to live and practice only what you did learn in school,
>including personal hygiene (that you need to wash your hands before to
>eat, brush your teeth, take a daily shower, comb your hair, and so on)
>and you will ended up with your toilet paper in your hands without
>knowing how to use it, and *that* is so much important to know, isn't?
>
hmmm. . I think Wagner has just said that if you disagree with him, you
probably can't wipe your own butt.. . maybe. :-)

Randy

1999\09\28@230302 by Wagner Lipnharski

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Randy Brumbaugh wrote:
>
> Ahhh . . . Wagner sees the light (or at least we agree on some points).  .
> . I apologize for snipping so much of Wagner's posting below, but wanted to
> minimize the bandwith usage and don't think I have misrepresented the context.
>
> >coffee breaks were induced every hour and they last 30 minutes each...
> >it was served in another room,
> [SNIP]
> Yes, in ANOTHER ROOM.  That is what I meant -- these discussions are
> valuable, perhaps interesting, and have their place -- in ANOTHER ROOM.
[snip]

Randy, I agree with you, another room was used because unfortunately the
"sound space" was unique, different from your computer email that can be
selective and programmed to automatically delete some messages... *IF*
people used the [OT] correctly.

Think with me... splitting the list in a regular PICLIST and another
OTPICLIST will render in nothing different... most of the same 1800
listed member will sign both lists and will receive the same posts from
both lists. I for one would sign both lists immediately.  Well, one can
choose not to receive from OTPICLIST, it will save him 3 to 5 minutes a
day deleting unwanted [OT] messages, but again, it can be programmed to
be done automatically, the only thing that changes is the email
downloading time.
The only immediate action with two lists would be a strong and
exhaustive job to Mark and Jory.

The big result in splitting the list is a natural reduction of the
list(s) effectiveness.  Ok, lets understand this point;  How many
members actually receive email from more than one list? even considering
that exist some other electronic lists around.  My guess is that this
number is very small, probably less than 2%.  Then, what means that?
People are lazy (no offense), but would you go to buy milk and bread in
two different stores? nahhh, you will choose one that has both, probably
the one close to that nice gas station, that has a video store close
by.  This is reflected in the "mall" shopping centers all around USA,
where lots of offerings try to attract more customers to the site.

The peculiarity of the list is based on the PIC uC, a unique device that
by Microchip marketing strategy (since the beginning), developed this
kind of consumers that in great part doesn't even want to migrate to
another competitors. It automatically create this unique discussion
center, completely different from any other electronic related list,
based on the high focus on a single platform, directed to the beginner
that doesn't understand so well the art of electronics (no offense, no
kissing ass, not generalizing, no nothing, just the way I see it
comparing with another groups). This "first love" is so strong, that so
many people already migrated to another chips but stay in this list,
Microchip was master in creating this loyalty.

This is why, I think, those debates are indivisible.

---------------
One suggestion, and here counts the system programmability, is to allow
list members to program at the listserv if he wants or not to receive
[OT] posts, with a [YES] as default.
---------------

You know what is my guess about it?  Again, very few members will
program a [NO] at that option.

What happens here, what is pestering our lifes is not the [OT] messages,
but its non appropriated contents and lack of common sense (that is
somehow normal in humans during 23.9 hours a day).

Today I read a nice post about it, if everyone that dislike some abusive
[OT] just send an email directly to the abuser, that guy will understand
it... receive more than 400 emails complaining about his behavior should
make some sense, isn't?

The magic of the computers allow us even to fight digitally... of course
it should also offers a lot of solutions to this kind of problems... it
is just a matter to understand and deal with, adding instead of
subtract.

Lets make this list stronger than what it is already, and lets try to
write and read messages with our brains instead our *foot*.  It is
difficult, our "animal inside" try to takeover, but one day we will do
it nicely.

Lets just avoid strong and high flammable topics as Religion, Politics,
and some material that is clearly way unrelated to PIC or at least
electronics around it, as the majority already stated.

Wagner.

1999\09\29@100654 by V sml

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Have to add my $0.02 below.

When I first joined the list, I skipped all the OTs.  Once, I had some
time to spare and so clicked on one of the OTs.  There I discovered
another treasure of PIClist, for the next few days I started to
revisit all the OTs in the past digests that I kept.

Though the ratio of OT and non-OT is getting a little unhealthy, but I
would still treasure most of the OTs as long as they are technically
related.

PICListers, I think is larger than PIC.  This quality of PICListers
justifies the OT they put up (except the social, political and
religion stuff).  Partly I think the OT reflects the PIC spirit when
it first came out to take on Intel and Motorola chips.

Ling SM

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