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'[OT] 'K' vs 'k''
1999\03\22@215538 by Dwayne Reid

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face
>Um, kilo Watts would be kW, as in kHz, kA, kPascals etc.
>Same form as dB (deci-Bells)
>

I realise that I was probably taught wrong, but *ALL* course notes that I've
looked at (from long ago) *always* refered kilo as 'K'.  This is gonna be a
hard thing to unlearn!  If I remember correctly, the rational was that if
the letter was a multiplier, use upper case; if the letter was a divider,
use lower case.  I certainly remember being bit on a first year exam
question by the M(omega) vs m(omega) difference.

How many magazine articles has anyone seen where they talk about 'kHz' vs
'KHz'?  I mostly see 'KHz'!

Where might one go to find an 'official' usage guide?  I'm really not sure
and would like to find out.

dwayne


Dwayne Reid   <spam_OUTdwaynerTakeThisOuTspamplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
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1999\03\22@223847 by Mike Keitz

picon face
>How many magazine articles has anyone seen where they talk about >'kHz'
vs 'KHz'?  I mostly see 'KHz'!


All the AM/FM radios I have here are labeled "kHz" and "MHz."  Apparently
the people who design the front panels of them are aware that the
recently [OT] discussed international standard is indeed small "k" for
kilo (or at least that every radio they've ever seen says "kHz" at the
end of the AM dial.)  Although "Kohm" isn't correct, it's pretty clear
from the context what you're talking about.  It's not like you've mixed
up mV with MV.  Many people in this world love to nitpick.

EE's also abuse the big K for Kelvin by using "degrees K".  The noise
figure of an amplifier, especially for microwave / satellite reception,
can be described in terms of "noise temperature" in Kelvin.

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1999\03\22@231439 by Gerhard Fiedler

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At 19:54 03/22/99 -0700, Dwayne Reid wrote:
>I realise that I was probably taught wrong, but *ALL* course notes that I've
>looked at (from long ago) *always* refered kilo as 'K'.

you might have been taught "right" (for canada at that time, i don't know
about that), but today it's just simply wrong -- i know that for europe and
the usa, and i'm pretty sure canada is in the train.

>Where might one go to find an 'official' usage guide?  I'm really not sure
>and would like to find out.

a few days ago i posted here a message with links to the official (usa)
nist site with all you ever wanted to know about (officially correct)
quantities and units -- and probably more... :) a simple search for "si"
and "unit" brought it up in yahoo. maybe if you include "canada" you get a
canadian official site more to the top, but for starters the nist site
should do it :)

ge

1999\03\23@085654 by Myke Predko

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My two cents worth...

In my books, I use the convention of upper case "K" for "kilo" to be
consistent with "Mega" and "Giga" simply because when the value is greater
than the base unit, I use an upper case character and when it's lower than
the unit, I use the lower case character.

In the text of the books, I use "K" for "kiloOhms" rather than "kOhms".
Personally, I think that "degrees K" should be used for "Kelvin" simply
because it is less prevalent than "kiloOhms".

Looking at the three microcontroller books, I can see that I didn't do a
great job of explaining this.

Actually, looking over McGraw-Hill's "Author Guide", the convention that I
use is the recommended one (sometimes you get lucky).  The "Chicago Manual
of Style" indicates that it is lower case "k" for "kilo" and upper case for
"M"ega and "G"iga.

I think the important thing is that you are consistent throughout your text
and there is no ambiguity about what you are describing (which I probably
miss on both counts).

myke

PS.  Gerhard, it's "Canada", "USA" and "Europe".  ;^)

1999\03\23@104311 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Try the universal only one rule about it:
SI - International System

Since it was created, the unit kilo is lower case, while all the
physical units, exception for some, are all upper case.  There is
nothing to do with multiplication or division.  V (Volt), A (Ampre), C
(Coulomb), Hz (Hertz), H (Henries), S (Siemens), Pa (Pascal), K
(Kelvin), N (Newton), W (Watt), J (Joule), and others are just
uppercase, while quantification is always lower case, except M from MEGA
to not create confusion with "m" from milli, and G from GIGA about to
avoid problems with "g" from grams.

By the way, if you see KHz in a magazine, you have the obligation to
email them and call their attention to correct it.  They must print it
right. Something that makes a magazine editor turns red of shame is when
you point him a printing error, mostly gramatical or technical.  It
shows how much they really know about what they are printing, and how
much can you trust them. Try to find KHz in any official publication.

It will be the same as write your name dWAYNE rEID, it is just not
right.

take a look at;
http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/units.html

Wagner

Dwayne Reid wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\03\23@105943 by Wagner Lipnharski

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Mike Keitz wrote:
> Although "Kohm" isn't correct, it's pretty clear
> from the context what you're talking about.  It's not like you've mixed
> up mV with MV.  Many people in this world love to nitpick.

Accept Kohms as right is just propagate the error to the future, and
this is the same as if you wrote it wrong.  You will not teach your kids
to write Kohms if they can learn to write kOhms.  You have two ways to
write it, right or wrong, cost the same typing time.

Well, revolution is something that always changed the World, but you
need to justify why Kohms is better than kOhms, so probably they will
change SI.  We use to start sentences in upper case as well proper
names, and we use period at the end of sentences. We don't do this in
any other way, except if we want to show that we never learned that.

Write Kohms instead kOhms, and I am very sorry for those who write this
way, it is a plain and simple ignorance that a simple look at the
following url can correct. Please don't confuse ignorance with
stupidity, ignorance means not know something (can be fixed), while
stupidity means insist in the error.

http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/units.html

Wagner

1999\03\23@112137 by Nuno Pedrosa

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BTW, in German all Nouns start with Capitals.

This got Me confused at First, as You may imagine. 8)

Anyway, I agree that Standards exist to be used (most of them, anyway),
and the SI should be used.

Now, let's got to the next stage!
Stop this nonsense of miles, feet, ounce, pint, driving in the wrong
side of the road and similars!
(Can you believe that they have earth miles and sea miles? With
different values???)

Let's get Metric! Let's get decimal! Let's get Standard! 8)

People change. They just need the right motivation!

Bye,
Nuno.

Wagner Lipnharski wrote:

> Well, revolution is something that always changed the World, but you
> need to justify why Kohms is better than kOhms, so probably they will
> change SI.  We use to start sentences in upper case as well proper
> names, and we use period at the end of sentences. We don't do this in
> any other way, except if we want to show that we never learned that.


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=======================================================================

1999\03\23@120140 by Stefan Sczekalla-Waldschmidt

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Hi,

Myke Predko wrote:
> Actually, looking over McGraw-Hill's "Author Guide", the convention that I
> use is the recommended one (sometimes you get lucky).  The "Chicago Manual
> of Style" indicates that it is lower case "k" for "kilo" and upper case for
> "M"ega and "G"iga.

Thats right, because "m" is for milli ... did u ever had the idea to use
a
"U" for "5" ??

And it's SI standard.

> I think the important thing is that you are consistent throughout your text
> and there is no ambiguity about what you are describing (which I probably
> miss on both counts).

That's important too...

>
> myke
>
> PS.  Gerhard, it's "Canada", "USA" and "Europe".  ;^)

I would suggest to use the SI system because it's makes live more
don't care to where you live.

Kind regards,

       Stefan

1999\03\23@124330 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
> Myke Predko wrote:
> Actually, looking over McGraw-Hill's "Author Guide", the
> convention that I use is the recommended one.

You mean that McGraw-Hill's Author Guide recommend to use upper case "K"
for kilo representation?  I thought that a big company like that always
follow conventions.  Is there any way to see this on the net?

> I think the important thing is that you are consistent
> throughout your text and there is no ambiguity about what
> you are describing.

I am sorry, but consistently wrong doesn't make it right.  kHz will be
thousand Hertz all over the World, anyplace, anytime, at any engineering
room or school, company, magazine or book, while KHz will always be an
infringing to the international standards, also recommended everywhere
via IS, ISA or NIST.

For sure everyone is free to create his own convention in written text,
if a legend is used to the correct interpretation, as for example the
Ohms symbol difficult to reproduce (some authors use @ as Ohms), but if
you can write it correctly why do it otherwise?

Try to get approval from WECC laboratories or NIST or ISA for a device
that measures "KHz"... they will laugh, because how someone can produces
a reliable equipment to measure some signal, if for start, it is wrote
wrong...

Wagner

1999\03\23@124745 by Nigel Orr

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At 16:09 23/03/99 +0000, you wrote:
>Let's get Metric! Let's get decimal! Let's get Standard! 8)

The European Commission have just announced an agreement whereby English
will be the official language of the EU rather than German, which was the
other possibility. As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government
conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has
accepted a 5 year phase in plan that would be known as "EuroEnglish".

In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c".. Sertainly, this will
make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in
favor of the "k". This should klear up konfusion and keyboards kan have 1
less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the
troublesome "ph" will be replaced with the "f". This will make words like
"fotograf" 20% shorter.

In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to
reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible.  Governments
will enkorage the removal of double letters, which have
always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the
horible mes of the silent "e"'s in the language is disgraceful, and they
should go away.

By the 4th yar, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing  "th" with
"z" and "w" with "v". During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd
from vords kontaining "ou" and similar changes vud of kors be
aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.

After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl.  Zer vil be no
mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech ozer.

                          ZE DREM VIL FINALI KUM TRU!!

;-)

Nigel (quite happy with miles, nautical miles, pints, feet and inches... or
all the new-fangled metric stuff)

1999\03\23@132707 by Wagner Lipnharski

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To read a bit more about the subject;

http://physics.nist.gov/Document/sp811.pdf

here a piece of the document:

4.4 Decimal multiples and submultiples of SI units: SI prefixes

Table 5 gives the SI prefixes that are used to form decimal multiples
and submultiples of SI units. They allow very large or very small
numerical values (see Sec. 7.1) to be avoided. A prefix attaches
directly to the name of a unit, and a prefix symbol attaches directly to
the symbol for a unit. For example, one kilometer, symbol 1 km, is equal
to one thousand meters, symbol 1000 m or 10^3 m. When prefixes are
attached to SI units, the units so formed are called ÎÎmultiples and
submultiples of SI unitsââ in order to distinguish them from the
coherent system of SI units. (See footnote 2 for a brief discussion of
coherence. The rules and style conventions for printing and using SI
prefixes are given in Secs. 6.2.1 to 6.2.8. The special rule for forming
decimal multiples and submultiples of the unit of mass is given in Sec.
6.2.7.)

Note : Alternative definitions of the SI prefixes and their symbols are
not permitted. For example, it is unacceptable to use kilo (k) to
represent 2^10 = 1024, mega (M) to represent 2^20 = 1 048 576, or giga
(G) to represent 2^30 = 1 073 741 824.

Table 5. SI prefixes

Factor      Prefix        Symbol
------  ----------------- ------
10^24 = (10^3)^8    yotta  Y
10^21 = (10^3)^7    zetta  Z
10^18 = (10 3)^6    exa    E
10^15 = (10 3)^5    peta   P
10^12 = (10 3) 4    tera   T
10^9  = (10 3) 3    giga   G
10^6  = (10 3) 2    mega   M
10^3  = (10 3) 1    kilo   k
10^2                hecto  h
10^1                deka   da
10^-1               deci   d
10^-2               centi  c
10^-3  = (10^3)^-1  milli  m
10^-6  = (10^3)^-2  micro  µ
10^-9  = (10^3)^-3  nano   n
10^-12 = (10^3)^-4  pico   p
10^-15 = (10^3)^-5  femto  f
10^-18 = (10^3)^-6  atto   a
10^-21 = (10^3)^-7  zepto  z
10^-24 = (10^3)^-8  yocto  y


At the end of this pdf document there are useful conversion tables.

Even that rocket scientists use correctly those multiple and submiltiple
of the SI units, it is not only their privilege, you can use them too.
 
Wagner

1999\03\23@142939 by Andy Kunz

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>Now, let's got to the next stage!
>Stop this nonsense of miles, feet, ounce, pint, driving in the wrong
>side of the road and similars!

Well, let's start by getting everybody to drive on the Right side of the
road.  Then we'll discuss changing the cowboy.

>(Can you believe that they have earth miles and sea miles? With
>different values???)

Can you believe they have mountains and mountains with different concepts
of the same.  They're a big difference between the Appalachians and the
Rockies.

>Let's get Metric! Let's get decimal! Let's get Standard! 8)

OK.  The US has established a standard and we've been using it for 200+
years.  What's holding up the rest of the world! <G>

Andy
  \-----------------/
   \     /---\     /
    \    |   |    /          Andy Kunz
     \   /---\   /           Montana Design
/---------+   +---------\     http://www.montanadesign.com
| /  |----|___|----|  \ |
\/___|      *      |___\/     Go fast, turn right,
                              and keep the wet side down!

1999\03\23@145429 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Metric system is not only accepted in US, as well all the scientific
notations are in metric already. It is known that a long time would be
necessary to substitute the standard by metric, something that began
many years ago. It needs at least a complete generation of people and
machinery / concepts / tools.  Several genuine US car manufacturers
already use metric, as well it is almost impossible to find a single
bolt or hose at NASA in the old standard measurement system, even the
huge doors at the assembly building, blueprints in metric.

Some tools manufacturers are producing tools that can be used at metric
and standard system, and right now in US you can find metric tools as
easy as the standard ones. Any hardware store offers screws and bolts in
all sizes of metric as well standard. It shows that we are in the middle
of the conversion process.

Wagner

Andy Kunz wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\03\23@151058 by Gerhard Fiedler

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At 17:10 03/23/99 +0000, Nigel Orr wrote:
>                           ZE DREM VIL FINALI KUM TRU!!

once again, the usa are miles (or is that kilometers? california is happily
converting :) ahead... you can read stuff like this everywhere :))

ge

1999\03\23@153810 by Nick Taylor

picon face
The NIST has a publication, "Guide for the Use of the
International System of Units (SI)".  This booklet should
be within easy reach of every person who uses written
language to communicate quantities.  The product number
is "SP 811" and it is *FREE*.  It may be requested at:

 http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/postalorder.html

As well as specifying appropriate symbols, spelling,
abbreviations, etc., SP 811 also has over twenty pages
of conversion factors just in case you can't remember
how to convert from faradays to coulombs.

I suggest that if you work (or write) for a company or
organisation the requires or requests that units or symbols
other than the SI units or symbols be used, you point
them toward SP 811.  For many U.S. companies it is the law.

It is good to be consistent, but it is even better if
your consistency is correct.

- - - Nick - - -

Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\03\23@153817 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Here in Orlando (FL), several traffic signs are already showing
distances in kilometers with miles in parenthesis.

All car's speedometer use both scales, and it is very difficult to find
an office supplier store selling school rulers just in inches, they are
all produced in inches and centimeters.

Scholars are learning that it is much easier to add 10 mm + 3 mm
resulting in 13 mm, rather then 1/2" + 1/16" = 9/16", and that an area
of 10 mm x 3 mm is just "30 sq.mm", or divided by 100, it is just 0.3
sq.cm, instead of 1/2" x 1/16" to be ... hmmm... how much? 1/32 sq.inch?

Questions:
If one liter of distilled water weights 1 kg, how much grams weights 200
ml?
If one gallon of distilled water weights 8.345 lb, how much ounces
weights a pinch?
If one liter has 10 cm^3 of water, how much grams weights 1 cm^3?
How much ounces weights 1 in^3 of the same water?

... electronic chips still being produced in standard system...

Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
>
> At 17:10 03/23/99 +0000, Nigel Orr wrote:
> >                           ZE DREM VIL FINALI KUM TRU!!
>
> once again, the usa are miles (or is that kilometers? california is happily
> converting :) ahead... you can read stuff like this everywhere :))
>
> ge

1999\03\23@154032 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 14:25 03/23/99 -0500, Andy Kunz wrote:
>OK.  The US has established a standard and we've been using it for 200+
>years.  What's holding up the rest of the world! <G>

i don't know... maybe the fact that the usa adopted the SI standard is
holding up the rest of the world? ask any of the usa's top notch
scientists, governmental or not, what they use.

then, what standard are you referring to? for starters, "kilo=1000" seems
to be abbreviated with both "k" and "K" in the usa. is that the "standard"?
then i personally doubt that "Kohm" for "1000 Ohm" has been used as a
standard for "200+" years. Mr. Ohm was born in 1789, so "200+" years for
that "standard" seems a bit exaggerated :)    BTW, did you know that "Ohm"
is a unit for liquids, too? approx. 140 liter (or 37 us gallons, for the
"metrical challenged" :). i know why i don't use it in this sense and
rather stick to the SI definition... :)


the ease of conversion from, say, electrical units (V, A, W) to mechanical
units (W, Nm, N) or thermal units (ever felt the desire to have a heat
sink's thermal resistance specified in ¡F/(Btu/h)? :) without conversion
factors is something really useful. so useful, that it actually didn't need
much to convince the usa's scientists and government officials to adopt
this standard.

the old, traditional units had their use and their time -- that was when
the disciplines were strictly separated. but that's not the case anymore
(for some, at least -- there will always be black-box mentalities :), and
for everybody who calculates over boundaries of different disciplines,
discipline-specific measures (such as feet, kcal, gal, kp, Torr) become a
burden sooner or later.


this is not a process that's like "the usa adapting to somebody other's
standards." in germany, non-SI units like kcal, kp, Torr (and Ohm :) were
widely (in some areas, exclusively) used before the adoption of the SI; my
father still used to work with them when i was young. but they've been
phased out quicker than the old units in the usa. the SI is not
"somebody's" standard, it is simply the world standard.

now you may think that this is enough reason =not= to follow it :), but i
guess it's just a matter of time. it will happen, you can delay it and stay
longer in the confusing transition period, or you can get it over with
quickly and take advantage of it.

ge

1999\03\23@155026 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 08:54 03/23/99 -0500, Myke Predko wrote:
>Actually, looking over McGraw-Hill's "Author Guide", the convention that I
>use is the recommended one (sometimes you get lucky).  The "Chicago Manual
>of Style" indicates that it is lower case "k" for "kilo" and upper case for
>"M"ega and "G"iga.

mcgraw-hill seem to have some problem with standards... "k" for "kilo" is
an official usa standard, adopted by the nist (NIST :).

>I think the important thing is that you are consistent throughout your text
>and there is no ambiguity about what you are describing

that's probably very important. but also important is that a community uses
consistent standards of communication (if we leave the small universe of
one author's books). that's why most of the scientifically and
technologically relevant countries adopted the "SI" (including the usa,
despite its french name :).

>PS.  Gerhard, it's "Canada", "USA" and "Europe".  ;^)

yep, i know. pure lazyness. but i try to be consistent and use proper
capitalization when any chance of ambiguity exists (includes most if not
all units -- go have a look at my posts :) -- which sometimes with acronyms
is not very obvious ("nist" :).  i just have a hard time understanding why
somebody would be too lazy to write "k" instead of "K". must be a different
form of laziness... :)

ge

1999\03\23@164719 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>all sizes of metric as well standard. It shows that we are in the middle
>of the conversion process.

It's a shame.  I feel sorry for our grandchildren.

Andy

  \-----------------/
   \     /---\     /
    \    |   |    /          Andy Kunz
     \   /---\   /           Montana Design
/---------+   +---------\     http://www.montanadesign.com
| /  |----|___|----|  \ |
\/___|      *      |___\/     Go fast, turn right,
                              and keep the wet side down!

1999\03\23@164723 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
At 11:58 AM 3/23/99 -0800, you wrote:
>At 17:10 03/23/99 +0000, Nigel Orr wrote:
>>                           ZE DREM VIL FINALI KUM TRU!!
>
>once again, the usa are miles (or is that kilometers? california is happily
>converting :) ahead... you can read stuff like this everywhere :))

You're just biased Gerhard <G>

They don't call it the "Left Coast" for no reason.

Andy

  \-----------------/
   \     /---\     /
    \    |   |    /          Andy Kunz
     \   /---\   /           Montana Design
/---------+   +---------\     http://www.montanadesign.com
| /  |----|___|----|  \ |
\/___|      *      |___\/     Go fast, turn right,
                              and keep the wet side down!

1999\03\23@164727 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>All car's speedometer use both scales, and it is very difficult to find
>an office supplier store selling school rulers just in inches, they are
>all produced in inches and centimeters.

My Volkswagen Rabbit doesn't have a metric odometer or speedometer, though!

>sq.cm, instead of 1/2" x 1/16" to be ... hmmm... how much? 1/32 sq.inch?

WHich again points that the US educational system lags.  I suppose we
should change over to decimal math for our computer systems now, too.  I
knew my timestables as a kid up through 19, so thinking in hex is no problem.

>If one gallon of distilled water weights 8.345 lb, how much ounces
>weights a pinch?

Depends on how big your fingers are.  I can pinch a heck of a noogie on you.

>... electronic chips still being produced in standard system...

Amen!

Andy
  \-----------------/
   \     /---\     /
    \    |   |    /          Andy Kunz
     \   /---\   /           Montana Design
/---------+   +---------\     http://www.montanadesign.com
| /  |----|___|----|  \ |
\/___|      *      |___\/     Go fast, turn right,
                              and keep the wet side down!

1999\03\23@164732 by Andy Kunz

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>At 14:25 03/23/99 -0500, Andy Kunz wrote:
>>OK.  The US has established a standard and we've been using it for 200+
>>years.  What's holding up the rest of the world! <G>
>
>standard for "200+" years. Mr. Ohm was born in 1789, so "200+" years for

Oh, no.  I was referring to the miles, feet, etc reference that I quoted.

>"somebody's" standard, it is simply the world standard.
>
>now you may think that this is enough reason =not= to follow it :), but i

Yes, this is true.

>guess it's just a matter of time. it will happen, you can delay it and stay
>longer in the confusing transition period, or you can get it over with
>quickly and take advantage of it.

Andy
  \-----------------/
   \     /---\     /
    \    |   |    /          Andy Kunz
     \   /---\   /           Montana Design
/---------+   +---------\     http://www.montanadesign.com
| /  |----|___|----|  \ |
\/___|      *      |___\/     Go fast, turn right,
                              and keep the wet side down!

1999\03\23@164735 by Andy Kunz

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>>PS.  Gerhard, it's "Canada", "USA" and "Europe".  ;^)
>
>yep, i know. pure lazyness. but i try to be consistent and use proper
>capitalization when any chance of ambiguity exists (includes most if not

No, it's America, Canada, and Europe.  Just ask Yuengling's!  (For the
challenged, Molson's (I believe) just law a lawsuit trying to force
Yuengling to stop using the "Oldest Brewery in America" trademarked slogan
because their brewery in Canada was older.  The courts threw it out because
everybody knows that "America" means "USA" (in Olympic-ease).  How many
Canucks are going to claim to be Americans when some nut with a gun
highjacks their airplane?!)

Andy

  \-----------------/
   \     /---\     /
    \    |   |    /          Andy Kunz
     \   /---\   /           Montana Design
/---------+   +---------\     http://www.montanadesign.com
| /  |----|___|----|  \ |
\/___|      *      |___\/     Go fast, turn right,
                              and keep the wet side down!

1999\03\23@173055 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
> The courts threw it out because everybody knows that "America"
> means "USA" (in Olympic-ease).

I thought that America was a continent that is separated in North,
South, and Central, not a specific country identification. A person
born in Uruguay, USA, Mexico or Canada has the same right to be
recognized as an "american", as well British, Portuguese, French
or German as an "european".  Just to make sure, I went to my big
wall World map and it doesn't show a country named "America",
instead it shows that several states at the continent "America"
are grouped in a country named "United States of America".

It may happens because the expressive participation of US athletes
at the Olympics as the "americas continent" representative. Soviet
athletes are expressive too, but in any way they changed the
european designation exclusively to who was born soviet, so I
don't understand why "america" means USA.  I don't recollect the
other american countries had sold their legitimate continent name.

1999\03\23@174404 by Nick Taylor

picon face
I wonder why the pejorative "ugly American" came into popular
usage?  We are all "Americans", from the southern tip of Cape
Horn to the northern most reaches of Ellesmere Island.

Andy Kunz wrote:
<snip>
> No, it's America, Canada, and Europe.  Just ask Yuengling's!  (For the
> challenged, Molson's (I believe) just law a lawsuit trying to force
> Yuengling to stop using the "Oldest Brewery in America" trademarked slogan
> because their brewery in Canada was older.  The courts threw it out because
> everybody knows that "America" means "USA" (in Olympic-ease).  How many
> Canucks are going to claim to be Americans when some nut with a gun
> highjacks their airplane?!)

How many intelligent people anywhere would claim to be "American" if
there
was any other option.  Bill Clinton is about to drop bombs on Kosovo
because
they are fighting there.  Fighting for peace is analogous to fucking for
virginity!

- - - Nick - - -

1999\03\23@193306 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 16:40 03/23/99 -0500, Andy Kunz wrote:
>>it is simply the world standard.
>>
>>now you may think that this is enough reason =not= to follow it :)
>
>Yes, this is true.

if this is your only reason: i consider it a poor reason. just because
somebody else found something good is =not= a good reason for me not to use
it. but maybe i'm "biased"... :)  (but then so is the usa's nist, which
adopted exactly this standard. maybe you should talk to your congress rep... :)

what's your unit for torque, BTW (i hope you don't use the devilish "Nm" --
maybe "lbf inch")?   how do you convert this torque in work (don't use SI
units here, either -- i suggest "Btu" or "kcal", or maybe "hph"), and
subsequently in power (maybe in "hp")?   and how do you compare this power
to the electrical power on the other side of the motor (do you =really=
have to use watt here? after all, this =is= an SI unit)?

three simple questions with three simple answers in the SI. (now, there are
actually people who think simple is only for stupid and like to make it
complicated to show that they =can=... :)


how would you like the unit "Ohm" if it was defined as 3.86V/A? doesn't
look very attractive to me...


and why on earth would you calculate electrical power in watt ("W") to
begin with, a unit from the SI, new, outlandish, when there is a perfect
traditional standard unit like "hp"? i tell you why: because the people who
introduced electricity and the calculations and units around it had the
insight to recognize the superiority and ease of a system like the SI. if
they hadn't, they would've used "hp" for power and defined:

"Power is measured in "horse powers" (in short "hp"). The unit "hp" is
defined as follows: It is the power delivered by a standard horse in fron
of a standard carriage at noon after a standard feeding at 8am by a
standard stable boy. The electrical unit for voltage ("volt") is exactly
the voltage at a resistive load with a current flow of 1 ampere and a
dissipated power of 0.336 hp."

i guess we prefer to stay with the SI (1 W = 1 A * 1 V = 1 N m/s; 1 V = 1 A
* 1 Ohm; 1 J = 1 A * 1 V * 1 s = 1 W s; 1 C = 1 A * 1 s = 1 J/V; 1 H = 1 V
* 1 s / 1 A = 1 Ohm s), don't we? so why not do the same with mechanics and
thermodynamics and all the other disciplines? what's the problem with all
the "1"s as "conversion factors"? do we actually need hp, kcal, inches Hg,
Btu, and, for that matter, imperial and us gallons and inches and all the
related conversion factors?


so if you can convince me that in your actual work you do =not= use SI
units (and instead use traditional units where available, as outlined
above), i might concede that you have a point. but i guess you're too smart
not to take advantage of the ease of the SI units in your work :)  -- which
makes your defense of the traditional system a bit weak... :)


as a side note: the decimal system and the SI are two completely different
matters. the only thing that points to a decimal system in the SI are the
multipliers. (and i bet you =do= use "kilo ohm" -- however abbreviated --
for "1000 ohm" and not much else, despite it being defined internationally
as such.) the units don't have anything to do with whether you calculate in
binary fractions or decimal ones or use a number system with a base of 19.
(the funny thing with the binary fractions is that probably most people do
the math with them in decimal anyway... like 17/32 + 1/128 = (17*4)/128 +
1/128 -- how do you think normal people calculate (17*4)? in binary?  note
that i said "most" and not "all": i guess there may be some who used this
system a lot and just have it memorized as well as decimal numbers, so that
"1/32" is not anymore the decimal fraction of 1/32 but a symbol of its own,
such as "the fifth position after the binary decimal point." but that for
sure doesn't apply to the "common american" here around me -- they're
mostly lost with the traditional system, whereas they don't have much
trouble calculating with the metric system of using the same number system
for numbers as for measures :)

ge



PS before anybody asks, "0.336 hp" is purely arbitrary, just as is the
relationship between inches and watt or hp and volt.

1999\03\23@203005 by Anthony Buckwell

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All new found Metric stuff?  Most of the world has been metric for years
and years.

tony

At 17:10 23/03/99 +0000, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Anthony Buckwell                        E-Mail: .....a.buckwellKILLspamspam.....cat.csiro.au
Electronic Engineer
Exploration and Mining, QCAT
CSIRO Australia

2643 Moggill Road, Pinjarra Hills QLD 4069
PO Box 883 Kenmore QLD , 4069 Australia
PH: +61 7 3212 4769     Mobile 0419 783 109
FAX:+61 7 3212 4455
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

1999\03\23@203628 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
> if this is your only reason: i consider it a poor reason. just because
> somebody else found something good is =not= a good reason for me not to use
> it. but maybe i'm "biased"... :)  (but then so is the usa's nist, which
> adopted exactly this standard. maybe you should talk to your congress rep... :
)

I agree with you Gerhard, and more, the interesting point here is that
USA is changing to use SI and Metric system, while no other country in
the whole World that uses SI (and metric) is changing back to Imperial
and old systems... it at least means something, huh?

I believe that all of this happens just because people are afraid of
changes, mainly because changing represents the acceptance of something
from somebody else, much worse when this somebody else is from another
company, city, country, and then to see that the thing you are being
doing for years is not accepted anymore... this is easy to understand,
and sometimes is painful, but changes make part of our life, starting by
the fact that we get older every day.

Sometimes we need to accept some changes that become to our benefit, if
not, we would still living in caves and using candles at night.

Sometimes I think and get fascinated that I only can type this text upon
energy generated by a Nuclear Power Plant, 15 miles from here.  We don't
have rivers in Florida enough to generate power in a hydroelectric
plant, coal is too much expensive, solar conversion is not so economic
yet, so what would be the other solution?  People discussed a lot the
use of Nuclear power, but it is here, being used for millions, at low
cost, and nobody complains anymore, people just accepted it, and don't
even remember anymore from where their nice cheap energy comes to feed
their AC at the hot Florida's summer, or the fridge or their 60"
surround sound TV, or their swimming pool filter system. My house
consumes lots of energy, I pay no more than $70 a month, I am glad we
have the power plant. I am glad decision people did it for a long shot
economy system. I am glad some people had vision.
People die from drugs in much bigger astronomical rate than from nuclear
radiation accidents, it is incomparable, and they have the option to
never start it, it is a consciously death.

So, what is the reason to still using the old measurement systems, if we
have the possibility to migrate fast, to an easier and better system (as
it is already happening), why we would fight against it? Why would you
still using star navigation when it is possible to purchase a GPS at any
K-Mart for only $90?

It is natural that we need to live with several conversion tables, but I
believe it is only temporary. Is there anybody using teaspoons or ounces
in chemical laboratories yet? No, they all use milliliters and grams.
Again, it at least means something, huh? If it is good for accuracy and
information exchange between high tech people, why it would be not good
for common people? Just show me one reason why not.

I am curious about chemical plants in UK, what system they use there?
The glass pippets to measure liquid volume, what reads at the glass
scale? milliliters or ounces? anybody from UK that knows that?

Wagner.

1999\03\23@205227 by Anthony Buckwell

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I agree with you Gerhard,  in australia in the sixties they converted
straight to the metric system complete with govenment advertising and nifty
jingle.  Now the old timers talk in Inches etc, but they all know how to
use metric.

If you are Working as a professional engineer you have to use SI units no
ifs no buts.  If you are in electronics for a hobbie i guess it dont mater
only that you may be teaching someone else in correctly.  And from my
understanding electronics is an exact science (except RF, but that another
topic(joke that one)).

Just check out the scene in "This is Spinal Tap" where they get a 12inch
model of Stone Hedge instead of a 12ft model.  It produced the best line of
the movie though "there was a model of stone hedge in danger of being
stepped on by a dwaff".

Go SI and most of the world will be happy.

At 12:33 23/03/99 -0800, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Anthony Buckwell                        E-Mail: EraseMEa.buckwellspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTcat.csiro.au
Electronic Engineer        
Exploration and Mining, QCAT        
CSIRO Australia

2643 Moggill Road, Pinjarra Hills QLD 4069
PO Box 883 Kenmore QLD , 4069 Australia
PH: +61 7 3212 4769     Mobile 0419 783 109
FAX:+61 7 3212 4455
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

1999\03\24@122525 by John Payson

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|Note : Alternative definitions of the SI prefixes and their symbols are
|not permitted. For example, it is unacceptable to use kilo (k) to
|represent 2^10 = 1024, mega (M) to represent 2^20 = 1 048 576, or giga
|(G) to represent 2^30 = 1 073 741 824.

Table 5. SI prefixes

Factor      Prefix        Symbol
------  ----------------- ------
10^-6  = (10^3)^-2  micro  ?

Is there any official standard which permits usefulness of a lowercase
"u" in character sets where the "mu" is not available?  Certainly, there
is no linguistic relationship between the characters, but the "u" is the
one that looks most like a "mu" and I've seen it used for that purpose
an awful lot...

1999\03\24@124757 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
For sure we need to try to follow SI as close as possible, but sometimes
keyboard limitations just force us to use some close representation, as
for example "u" for micro, even that I can type ALT+0181 ==> µ <=== and
it appears at my email text as the micro symbol, probably you can't see
it between the arrows, right?... then we just use "u".

John Payson wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\03\24@140254 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 12:46 03/24/99 -0500, Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
>type ALT+0181 ==> µ <===

<right alt>m = µ (windows us international)

1999\03\24@160927 by Reginald Neale

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>For sure we need to try to follow SI as close as possible, but sometimes
>keyboard limitations just force us to use some close representation, as
>for example "u" for micro, even that I can type ALT+0181 ==> µ <=== and
>it appears at my email text as the micro symbol, probably you can't see
>it between the arrows, right?... then we just use "u".

Wagner:

For what it's worth, I saw the "micro" character in your message just fine.
I'm using a Mac with Eudora Pro. But I have used special characters in
messages to other people and had them corrupted into something else.

Reg Neale

1999\03\24@170443 by paulb

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Wagner Lipnharski wrote:

> I can type ALT+0181 ==> µ <===

 I am much lazier.  Alt-230.  ==> µ <===

 Who sees a difference?
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\03\24@170443 by paulb

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Wagner Lipnharski wrote:

> I can type ALT+0181 ==> µ <===

 I am much lazier.  Alt-230.  ==> µ <===

 Who sees a difference?
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\03\24@170725 by paulb

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Gerhard Fiedler wrote:

> At 12:46 03/24/99 -0500, Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
>> type ALT+0181 ==> µ <===

> <right alt>m = µ (windows us international)

 Only on my German keyboard, not a US international version.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\03\24@181812 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
I am too lazy to look for the difference, but I know that if you
type (on a very idle time) all the 255 combinations using
ALT + 0nnn (four digits number starting with zero), it shows
a different character set from ALT + nnn (without the zero).
Wagner

Paul B. Webster VK2BZC wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\03\24@190252 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 09:04 03/25/99 +1000, Paul B. Webster VK2BZC wrote:
>Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
>> <right alt>m = µ (windows us international)
>
>  Only on my German keyboard, not a US international version.

i have a usa made keyboard (but that shouldn't matter), keyboard layout
"United States-International" (control
panel|keyboard|language|properties|keyboard layout) and win98 (works the
same on all versions at least since 3.11). this kb driver has the exact
same keys as the normal usa keyboard, except that the keys ' " ^ ` ~ modify
the following key and that you have many alternate key functions with the
right alt key. for programming i have the normal usa layout alternatively
(switches on-the-fly through the tray).

ge

1999\03\24@190259 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 18:16 03/24/99 -0500, Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
>I am too lazy to look for the difference, but I know that if you
>type (on a very idle time) all the 255 combinations using
>ALT + 0nnn (four digits number starting with zero), it shows
>a different character set from ALT + nnn (without the zero).

alt+nnn uses extended ascii (oem), alt+0nnn uses ansi. use a table, it's
faster :)

ge

1999\03\24@224438 by paulb

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part 0 980 bytes content-type:application/octet-stream; name="Asc.com"> alt+nnn uses extended ascii (oem), alt+0nnn uses ansi. use a table,
> it's faster :)

 The table for IBMSCII is attached.  It's a TSR to run behind DOS
programs.  Activates by Alt-A (for "Ascii")  It has a strange behaviour
under Win95 but - "Don't Panic!" Just be patient and it fixes itself!

 Ordinarily you should not run executables obtained by e-mail.  Use at
your own risk therefore.  Most people should however be able to reassure
themselves by inspection of the binary, whether it is dangerous or not.

 Copyright?  Good question.  It's from a magazine and is quite old.

 Attachment?  Object code is 1169 bytes.  Hardly a worry.

 For Ansi-type codes, the program is built into Windoze, called
"Charmap".
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Asc.com"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Asc.com"

Attachment converted: wonderland:Asc.com (????/----) (0002CF11)

1999\03\24@225941 by paulb

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Gerhard Fiedler wrote:

> I have a usa made keyboard (but that shouldn't matter),

 Nothing to do with the keyboard, to be sure!

> this kb driver has the exact same keys as the normal usa keyboard,
> except that the keys ' " ^ ` ~ modify the following key and that you
> have many alternate key functions with the right alt key.

 Begorrah!  It does too.  Are there any instructions?  (Is it
documented?!)

 First try of ALtGr-M on this (non-German) keyboard brought up File
Manager.  That was a shortcut (Ctrl-Alt-M) I have put in many years ago
on Win 3.1 which somehow got into Win98!  When removed, it works as you
say.  I love it!  (Trouble is, I have many other such shortcuts set!)

> for programming i have the normal usa layout alternatively (switches
> on-the-fly through the tray).

 Can you be a bit more specific about this?

 OK, anyone know how a fix for the demented behaviour of the shift key
in the Gr layout?
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\03\25@014903 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 14:58 03/25/99 +1000, Paul B. Webster VK2BZC wrote:
>  Begorrah!  It does too.  Are there any instructions?  (Is it
>documented?!)

the last documentation about microsoft keyboard layouts i saw was from dos
5. i am not aware of any docs for the different layouts they offer. the few
keys i use i memorized with time :)

those double function keys are most useful before vowels for roman
languages and german and the like (for accents, umlauts and those letters
with ~ above). <shift-altgr-;> is '¡', <altgr-7> is '¸', <altgr-c> is © and
<altgr-r> is ¨...

>> for programming i have the normal usa layout alternatively (switches
>> on-the-fly through the tray).
>
>  Can you be a bit more specific about this?

it's easy once you have figured out that you have to install a second
"language" in order to get a second keyboard layout. install "English (New
Zealand)" (or "English (Ireland)", or aboriginal, or whatever -- i have
"Portuguese (Brazilian)"; it doesn't matter much :) and give it your
preferred second layout (i have "United States 101" and "United
States-International"), which will then appear on the right hand side in
the list in the "Language" tab of the keyboard properties. then you can
activate one of two keyboard shortcuts to switch layouts and optionally the
tray icon (which shows you the activated language and allows you to switch
the language, which will switch the associated keyboard layout).

oh, another english language might not be a good idea, because probably all
of them have a tray icon like "En". you'll see and find a way around...
(isn't windows wonderfully full of adventures? almost like a game :)

the behaviour is not 100% consistent, it tends to depend a bit on the
application when exactly it switches and where it applies to. it's usually
safer to switch when you're not in any particular app, and even safer when
no app is open at all. (like i said, adventures...)


>  OK, anyone know how a fix for the demented behaviour of the shift key
>in the Gr layout?

what do you mean?

ge

1999\03\25@052922 by paulb

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Actually, we«ve been here before.

Gerhard Fiedler wrote, quoting me:

>>  OK, anyone know how a fix for the demented behaviour of the shift
>> key in the Gr layout?
> what do you mean?

 I mean whoever wrote it (way back then) seemed to think that all
Germans still use 1940s typewriters with a *shift* lock key attached to
the arm of the left Shift key, shifting *all* keys and released by the
Shift key itself, rather than an Alpha lock affecting only alphabet
keys.

 It«s absolutely useless and I can«t imagine anyone actually using the
Lock key on a German keyboard at all as a result, but I suppose you get
used to it to *some* extent.

 Actually, the "R-S" rather than "Toggle" function is quite good, but
Shift Lock is execrable.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

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