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'[OT] [TECH] What are game consoles hacked for?'
2010\12\13@142327 by Vitaliy

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Carlos Marcano wrote:
>I had some spare time after lunch and took a look at this very nice blog:
>
> <http://www.pagetable.com/>
>
> Very interesting stuff. There was a particular post that got my attention:
>
> <http://www.pagetable.com/?p=376>
>
> So, hacking for fun and/or  "freeing" the hardware you pay for does
> not apply to the game consoles?

I believe it is the author's point ("Linux is Inevitable") that people hack game consoles in order to "free" them, in other words to run their own homebrew code or Linux apps. According to him, piracy is "collateral damage". Some commenters argued that piracy is not a symptom, but the primary motivator in most cases.

Vitaliy

2010\12\13@143225 by Carlos Marcano

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I also believe that piracy is the big motivator, specially for such
high priced games as PS3 games. But I would like to believe that
interest on experimenting, unleashing and/or improving has a major
role... But, according to the author, "black hat" companies play
bigger than thought parts on the whole scene.

Regards,

Carlos.


2010/12/13 Vitaliy <spam_OUTpiclistTakeThisOuTspammaksimov.org>:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\12\13@143931 by Carlos Marcano

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Sorry, I meant to say "... But, according to OTHER authors, "black
hat" companies play bigger than thought parts on the whole scene."

Regards,

Carlos.


2010/12/13 Carlos Marcano <.....c.marcanoKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com>:
{Quote hidden}

>> -

2010\12\14@031248 by Moreira, Luis A

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I don't know about this piracy thing, I just bought a PS3 just to take apart and have a look at it. I bought it with a faulty BlueRay drive which I am in the process of fixing, but really not being that interested in gaming (until now :-)) I find the console really boring and I am itching to get some other OS in it. I suppose that after getting something else to run on it, I probably would, I guess for curiosity sake, explore the collateral effect, but really until this posts I really never even thought about it.
What I always think, although more often than not I never do anything with it, is that I bought the device, and I should be able to do what I like with it and it as a processor and other goodies that makes for a very good embedded system hence I want to be able to use it if I chose to do so. Case in point is my iPhone, beautiful piece of kit, but a bit restricted on developing your own Apps for it, that really annoys me, that's why I am keeping an eye on the Android devices.
Best Regards
           Luis
 
{Original Message removed}

2010\12\14@155042 by Carlos Marcano

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2010/12/14 Moreira, Luis A <.....Luis.MoreiraKILLspamspam.....ccfe.ac.uk>:
> I don't know about this piracy thing, I just bought a PS3 just to take apart and have a look at it. I bought it with a faulty BlueRay drive which I am in >the process of fixing,

That's what I did. It was so easy and cheap to replace the drive that
the system ended up costing me next to nothing!

>but really not being that interested in gaming (until now :-))

My main use for it is as a Media Center. I hardwired it to my Gb lan
and stream HD movies from my server using a tiny great piece of
software (really a java wrapper) called PS3 Media Server*. Besides
that,I am an occasional gamer. mostly sports games which I don't do in
"real life" :)

>I find the console really boring and I am itching to get some other OS in it.

Althought I don't find it boring at all (think about it, it is a Cell
system for the masses - supercomputers, anyone?) I agree that the
Other OS feature is a must.

>I suppose that after getting something else to run on it, I probably would, I guess for curiosity sake, explore the collateral effect, but really until this posts I really never even thought about it.

I had not got too much thinking about it either...

> What I always think, although more often than not I never do anything with it, is that I bought the device, and I should be able to do what I like with it >and it as a processor and other goodies that makes for a very good embedded system hence I want to be able to use it if I chose to do so.

I am big supporter of those ideas too but I have to admit that I did
not pay too much attention to the gray zones - I think homebrew is a
right but this right usually (well mostly always) ends conflicting
with the IP owner's rights because of the Pandora box it opens
(piracy).

>Case in point is my iPhone, beautiful piece of kit, but a bit restricted on developing your own Apps for it, that really annoys me, that's why I am >keeping an eye on the Android devices.

It should be interesting to know if "open" systems (Android, etc)
restrict more the piracy than "closed" systems (iOS, etc).

Regards,

Carlos.


> Best Regards
>            Luis
>

2010\12\14@190155 by Joseph Bento

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On Dec 13, 2010, at 11:41 AM, Carlos Marcano wrote:

>
> So, hacking for fun and/or  "freeing" the hardware you pay for does
> not apply to the game consoles?
>
> Regards,
>
> Carlos.

Does it come down to the ability to do something that was not intended?

Apparently someone has already figured out how to load Ubuntu on an Amazon Kindle and claiming that it makes 'quite a splendid little Linux machine'.

Joe

2010\12\14@192738 by Michael Watterson

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Almost all game console Hacking is to aid piracy.

The original PS2 can take a Network adaptor and 40G drive and Linux. An official Sony package

The PS3 DID have Linux, officially. It was disabled because it made the regular console software able to be "rooted" for Piracy.

The Xbox is only hacked for piracy.

If you want cheap linux there are FAR better cheap solutions.

The consoles are not sold as general purpose computers, They are appliances to play media & games.

When was the last time someone rooted the software on a VHS, Microwave oven, Washing machine, TV set?

Guess why Satellite/Cable boxes with card readers are hacked to run open versions of Linux? Card Sharing. Or even soft cams and cardless pay TV theft. (In Irish law it's not copyright violation alone, but theft of service. But Copyright violation is getting sued and may have $200,000 damages. Criminal conviction is maybe $7,000)

I'm all for hacking stuff. But the reality is that Console and Set-box modding/hacking is mostly about organised piracy.

It means it's harder to "hack" an Archos PMP or Nintendo Ds to add your own HW & SW for a neat application. It means if HDD dies on an Archos 605, only Archos can replace it (unless you have gear to read Firmware serial code from an HDD and write it to a new one).

It means an Apple Classic ZIF PATA 1.8" is paperweight for anything else cos they had to get Toshiba make the fiirmware so you can write the MBR (OS protected to stop you disabling iTunes DRM).

So the piracy hacking creates "electronic warfare" and escalating protection (i.e. loss of Linux on PS3), harder to do "legitimate" hacking (make a PMP into a storage scope, logic analyser, BT GPS logger etc...

2010\12\14@195048 by Bob Blick

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On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 00:27:19 +0000, "Michael Watterson" said:

> When was the last time someone rooted the software on a VHS, Microwave
> oven, Washing machine, TV set?

How about a refrigerator? That'd be me :) I can make custom ice now, and
stats come out the serial port.

But never a game console.

Plenty of xbox hacking is to run Linux to be a front end to MythTV, but
that is the earlier xbox, not the new one.

I think the reason a lot of stuff gets tinkered with is just kids with
plenty of spare time working on something challenging. And being a hero
to the ones that want the "free" games.

Cheers,

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be

2010\12\15@023304 by Ruben Jönsson

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>
> The Xbox is only hacked for piracy.
>
The (original) Xbox was also hacked to run XBMC and actually made it a good and cheap media console.

/Ruben
==============================
Ruben Jönsson
AB Liros Electronic
Box 9124, 200 39 Malmö, Sweden
TEL INT +46 40142078
FAX INT +46 40947388
EraseMErubenspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTpp.sbbs.se
==============================

2010\12\15@085743 by Carlos Marcano

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2010/12/14 Joseph Bento <josephspamspam_OUTkirtland.com>:

> Does it come down to the ability to do something that was not intended?

Not intended but nevertheless capable of doing? I feel riped off when
I buy something intentionally crippled, I mean, there are sometimes
that there is even effort done to make it not work at full potential.
It is not like they are saving man hours by not implementing
something, they are expending man hours to not aloud things to work at
it's best! (I am not saying this is the case with PS3).

In the specific case for PS3, I don't know if its been done but the
whole "Other OS" thing smells to class action to me: "Hey buy my
system, it offers this and this... Hey wait, thanks for buying it but
we want to take this and this out cause it is not safe... for us."

> Apparently someone has already figured out how to load Ubuntu on an Amazon Kindle and claiming that it makes 'quite a splendid little Linux machine'..

Hey, just in time! I got a Kindle as a gift and I love it, Linux
tinkering would be a plus.

Regards,

Carlos

2010\12\15@090448 by Carlos Marcano

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2010/12/14 Bob Blick <@spam@bobblickKILLspamspamftml.net>:


> I think the reason a lot of stuff gets tinkered with is just kids with
> plenty of spare time working on something challenging. And being a hero
> to the ones that want the "free" games.

So in the end the "bad" guys always win (There is no way to define bad
in this context but sounded like a nice punch line.)

I just wanted to bring something else to attention: I would put my
money to bet that most (as in "not all") of the hacking to gaming
consoles come from places out of the US and other highly policing IP
copyrights laws. I have read that, as an example, the PSP and PS3
hacking scene is prominent in places like Spain, Brazil and a land
down under. This might be only accidental but could be important.

Regards,

Carlos

2010\12\15@100119 by Michael Watterson

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On 15/12/2010 14:04, Carlos Marcano wrote:
> 2010/12/14 Bob Blick<KILLspambobblickKILLspamspamftml.net>:
>
>
>> I think the reason a lot of stuff gets tinkered with is just kids with
>> plenty of spare time working on something challenging. And being a hero
>> to the ones that want the "free" games.
> So in the end the "bad" guys always win (There is no way to define bad
> in this context but sounded like a nice punch line.)
>
> I just wanted to bring something else to attention: I would put my
> money to bet that most (as in "not all") of the hacking to gaming
> consoles come from places out of the US and other highly policing IP
> copyrights laws. I have read that, as an example, the PSP and PS3
> hacking scene is prominent in places like Spain, Brazil and a land
> down under. This might be only accidental but could be important.
>
> Regards,
>
> Carlos.
I seriously doubt the local IP law has any influence on Hacking/Piracy. It might affect where the results are sold

2010\12\15@103620 by M.L.

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On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 7:27 PM, Michael Watterson <RemoveMEmikeTakeThisOuTspamradioway.org> wrote:
> The Xbox is only hacked for piracy.
>

All hyperbole is bad.

-- Martin K

2010\12\15@104215 by alan.b.pearce

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> I seriously doubt the local IP law has any influence on
Hacking/Piracy.
> It might affect where the results are sold.

I believe that Microsoft tried to shut down the hacking of the Kinect
interface, and got laughed at. Their efforts promptly caused a large
team of hackers all over the USA to discover everything they could and
post it on the 'net as soon as possible.
-- Scanned by iCritical.

2010\12\15@105143 by Michael Watterson

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On 15/12/2010 15:35, M.L. wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 7:27 PM, Michael Watterson<spamBeGonemikespamBeGonespamradioway.org>  wrote:
>> The Xbox is only hacked for piracy.
>>
> All hyperbole is bad.
>
I meant mostly. Sorry

Doesn't the XBox 360 do video Streaming client happily without hacking

2010\12\15@105250 by Kerry Wentworth

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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times:  Don't exaggerate!

Kerry


M.L. wrote:
{Quote hidden}

-- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 267.11.13 - Release Date: 10/6/05

2010\12\15@121535 by Kerry Wentworth

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I thought it was a joke, so I replied with a joke.

Like:  All generalizations are false.

It's not an optical illusion, it just looks like one.

etc.

I was NOT lecturing!  Although "All hyperbole is pure evil" might be funnier.

Kerry


Michael Watterson wrote:
{Quote hidden}

-- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 267.11.13 - Release Date: 10/6/05

2010\12\15@123934 by Carlos Marcano

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2010/12/15  <alan.b.pearceEraseMEspam.....stfc.ac.uk>:
>> I seriously doubt the local IP law has any influence on
> Hacking/Piracy.
>> It might affect where the results are sold.
>
> I believe that Microsoft tried to shut down the hacking of the Kinect
> interface, and got laughed at. Their efforts promptly caused a large
> team of hackers all over the USA to discover everything they could and
> post it on the 'net as soon as possible.

There was even a bounty for an open source driver:

<http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2010/11/10/we-have-a-winner-open-kinect-drivers-released-winner-will-use-3k-for-more-hacking-plus-an-additional-2k-goes-to-the-eff/>

Regards,

Carlos

2010\12\15@131845 by Olin Lathrop

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Kerry Wentworth wrote:
> All generalizations are false.

But conversely, never make absolute statements.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\12\16@100314 by Gerhard Fiedler

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Michael Watterson wrote:

> Guess why Satellite/Cable boxes with card readers are hacked to run
> open versions of Linux? Card Sharing.
I have a TiVo-like device from SKY (in Brazil) and I'd /really/ like to
hack it. Not for piracy, but because for one a bigger disk would be
nice, and maybe I can also set it so the disk powers down when not in
use -- it makes a considerable noise in an otherwise quiet living room.
If I had a bit more spare time on my hands I probably would have tried
already.
Gerhar

2010\12\16@155946 by William \Chops\ Westfield

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On Dec 15, 2010, at 7:41 AM, EraseMEalan.b.pearcespamstfc.ac.uk wrote:

> I believe that Microsoft tried to shut down the hacking of the Kinect
> interface, and got laughed at. Their efforts promptly caused a large
> team of hackers all over the USA to discover everything they could and
> post it on the 'net as soon as possible.

This is not an accurate description of events, not that the press has  been very careful about their terms.  http://www.adafruit.com/blog?s=kinect   It was more like:

Adafruit (an electronics kit company and open source evangelist)  offers the "OK prize" ($1000) for anyone who publishes open source  drivers for the the Kinect (11/4: http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2010/11/04/the-open-kinect-project-the-ok-prize-get-1000-bounty-for-kinect-for-xbox-360-open-source-drivers/   )  (I vaguely recall the original announcement headline being a bit  more provocatively worded; something like "hack the kinect"; hard to  tell now...  Maybe it was just that "Hack the Kinect for Xbox 360 and  claim the $1,000 bounty!" in the first paragraph.)

This is somewhat widely reported on the net as "bounty offered for  hacked Kinect."  Microsoft responds with legal boilerplate (“Microsoft  does not condone the modification of its products,” a company  spokesperson told CNET. “With Kinect, Microsoft built in numerous  hardware and software safeguards designed to reduce the chances of  product tampering. Microsoft will continue to make advances in these  types of safeguards and work closely with law enforcement and product  safety groups to keep Kinect tamper-resistant.”)  Adafruit doubles the  "bounty."  (http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2010/11/04/microsoft-isnt-taking-kindly-to-the-bounty-offer/   )

Evidence of success starts to appear.  More legal boilerplate from  Microsoft (uh, that's not what WE meant by hacking, but ... buy an  xBox)  Adafruit thing microsoft is silly; bounty up to $3k. (http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2010/11/08/the-bounty-is-now-3k-software-giant-says-engineers-linking-of-camera-based-system-to-windows-7-pc-does-not-constitute-hacking/   )

The first successful driver author gets greedy and doesn't publish  first.  Another author takes less than 12 hours from purchase to hack,  DOES publish, and collects the $3k: http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2010/11/10/we-have-a-winner-open-kinect-drivers-released-winner-will-use-3k-for-more-hacking-plus-an-additional-2k-goes-to-the-eff/   (pretty short contest!)

Numerous instances of "neat hacks" appear for various non-xbox  hardware, using Kinect.   Widespread publicity for the whole thing.   Microsoft does damage control in the press ("this is neat stuff and  we're perfectly OK with it": http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2010/12/07/microsoft-is-perfectly-comfortable-with-hobbyists-taking-advantage-of-that-raw-data/   )

A major (IMO) success for the hacking community, the open source  community, and probably for Microsoft.   No piracy is involved and  lots of people look good...

BillW

2010\12\17@033942 by RussellMc

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Gentlemen (and anyone else).

Please ensure that all posts have only ONE tag.
In this case [OT] is the better choice as this is (arguably) more
about philosophy than  hardware.

I note that the thread started dual-tagged but that someone turned it
into solely OT on one threadlet but it didn't stick.

I'll send this post dual tagged still so it reaches all concerned.



           Russel

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