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'[OT][PETROCHEMICAL]Train Rockets'
1999\10\13@211256 by Sean H. Breheny

face picon face
At 09:11 AM 10/14/99 +1000, you wrote:
Well, I didn't mean that we would stop SO quickly as to propel the crew
through bulkheads! I was thinking that there is now a maximum of about 1G
of breaking power (due to relying on friction). With the rocket, you could
achieve 5G without injury to people (provided they braced themselves).

Also, Mark's idea sounds good: distribute the rockets to make the force
more even.

I can see many problems with it, too (mostly financial and things like
"When do I push the emergency rocket button?"<G>) BUT, I just always
wondered why I had never seen it suggested at all. Surprising, considering
all the other wacko ideas that get tossed around.

Sean

{Quote hidden}

| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
.....shb7KILLspamspam@spam@cornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174

1999\10\13@215902 by Dennis Plunkett

flavicon
face
At 21:10 13/10/99 -0400, you wrote:
>At 09:11 AM 10/14/99 +1000, you wrote:
>Well, I didn't mean that we would stop SO quickly as to propel the crew
>through bulkheads! I was thinking that there is now a maximum of about 1G
>of breaking power (due to relying on friction). With the rocket, you could
>achieve 5G without injury to people (provided they braced themselves).

Nope!
5G eh That aint no tinny rocket in my book do the sums for a typical train
of 30 carrages each with 30 000Kg and an engine of 150 000 (Not a small
one) Kg hooning along at 60Kph. Total curb mass of 1,050,000 Kg slightly
more than a moonshot <VBG> (Not much in fact if I recall from my jet days
600 000 for a Saturn 2, may be wrong some one will know). An ICBM is a
solif fuel rocket and quite large to lift a payload of 5000Kg, OK so it
goes a bit faster, just attempting to get a grip on size. Also I think that
it is a bit hard to control the burn of a soild fuel rocket, all or
nothing, so a nice jolty shock.


Well WAY OT but fun!

PS Note that the name is not 400 characters long. I must practice my
english as much as possible, so sorry for it I seem to ramble on and on and
on. I think that I have mastered 10 000 of the 830 000 words including the
double meanings like:-

Engaged
Occupided
Bar
The difference between Bad and Not Good
The way that NOT does not always negate a sentance and how it can be loaced
at the end eg. Why not, When not, If not, Because not
The way the so many words sound the same but as spelt differntly:-
Not, Knot. Which witch is which. Weather, whether. There, thier. Its' it's
And that great one of when letters for differnt sounds than you would think:-
gh == f etc..

Wow, tough!


Dennis




>
>Also, Mark's idea sounds good: distribute the rockets to make the force
>more even.

Noting like frying the homeless people on the side of the track, or buring
the people to a crisp waiting at the RR crossing <G>


>
>I can see many problems with it, too (mostly financial and things like
>"When do I push the emergency rocket button?"<G>) BUT, I just always
>wondered why I had never seen it suggested at all. Surprising, considering
>all the other wacko ideas that get tossed around.
>

I think that it was at the last Christmas party (Woops religoious) <ROFL>


Dennis


{Quote hidden}

1999\10\13@221508 by bowman

flavicon
face
From: Sean H. Breheny <EraseMEshb7spam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTCORNELL.EDU>
>
> "When do I push the emergency rocket button?"<G>)

That question comes up with the existing systems. Maximum braking skids the
wheels,  quickly wearing flatspots on them. So, the engineer is thinking,
"I'm going to hit that idiot parked on the crossing anyway? Why screw up
several hundred railcars in the bargain?"

1999\10\13@232206 by W. Sierke

picon face
> From: Sean H. Breheny <shb7spamspam_OUTCORNELL.EDU>
> >
> > "When do I push the emergency rocket button?"<G>)
>
> That question comes up with the existing systems. Maximum braking skids
the
> wheels,  quickly wearing flatspots on them. So, the engineer is thinking,
> "I'm going to hit that idiot parked on the crossing anyway? Why screw up
> several hundred railcars in the bargain?"

Aha! So the real task for the PIC is in the ABS!

1999\10\14@015826 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
> > 5G eh That aint no tinny rocket in my book do the sums for a typical
train
> > of 30 carrages each with 30 000Kg and an engine of 150 000
> >
>
>
Why do you think I want to buy some when the project gets canned :)

You'd have to do it per car, of course, if you put all that on the front,
the rest would derail. Messy.

That's a whole lotta newtons though, even for one car's worth.
Actually, you could control the thrust curve fairly well by how the grain
is
cored.

It would be really amusing if the rockets went off with load of pigs
instead
of a load of steel! That would be "When pigs fly!".. Backwards!

1999\10\14@020246 by Sean H. Breheny

face picon face
If you think that it would be funny under the usual circumstances, you
should hear my idea for what to do if the burn lasts too long: jettison the
rockets. :-D

Can you immagine 30 or so POWERFUL rocket engines flying off with no
stabilization!!

Sean

At 12:56 AM 10/14/99 -0500, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
@spam@shb7KILLspamspamcornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174

1999\10\14@020708 by Dave VanHorn

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face
> Can you immagine 30 or so POWERFUL rocket engines flying off with no
> stabilization!!


I've been there for a single M-motor loose. Actually they're not so bad, but
if it is on the ground, it's stable, at least in two dimensions..
"LANDSHARK!!!"

1999\10\14@022819 by Sean H. Breheny

face picon face
LOL! Some of the funniest experiences of my life have been at a high school
rocket contest that I participated in for two years in a row. First off,
people would try almost anything-including rockets made out of two-liter
soda bottles,with added gunpowder to cause an explosion intentionally!

I have a friend who used to use really cheap E engines in rockets designed
for D engines. The engines often wouldn't ignite with the off-the-shelf
ignitor,so he would add a little gunpowder to the engine to help it start
<G>. One time, the news people showed up to cover the event. When he
launched his rocket, it started out fine, and the camera stayed on his face
as he watched his rocket climb. At one point, he busts out in hysterical
laughing,and the news people never explained to their audience why he did
that. AS it turned out, his rocket had exploded spectacularly at about 400
feet!

Another time, there was a groundskeeper doing something on the athletic
field that the contest was held at. He was standing under a telephone pole
at one end of the field. My friend once again took a rocket designed for a
D engine (which had balsa fins which weren't glued on well) and loaded up
his E engine. When he launched it, it lost its fins at about 20 feet, went
horizontal, accelerated to probably >600 knots, and slammed straight into
the telephone pole with a BANG that was loud even where we were 200 ft
away. That groundskeeper probably needed an underwear change!

Sean

At 01:04 AM 10/14/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> Can you immagine 30 or so POWERFUL rocket engines flying off with no
>> stabilization!!
>
>
>I've been there for a single M-motor loose. Actually they're not so bad, but
>if it is on the ground, it's stable, at least in two dimensions..
>"LANDSHARK!!!"
>
|
| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
KILLspamshb7KILLspamspamcornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174

1999\10\14@024103 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
> ignitor,so he would add a little gunpowder to the engine to help it start
> <G>. One time, the news people showed up to cover the event. When he
> launched his rocket, it started out fine, and the camera stayed on his
face
> as he watched his rocket climb. At one point, he busts out in hysterical
> laughing,and the news people never explained to their audience why he did
> that. AS it turned out, his rocket had exploded spectacularly at about 400
> feet!

Not caused by the extra ignition.. E engines have a SERIOUS problem with
cracked grains, resulting in explosion.


> horizontal, accelerated to probably >600 knots, and slammed straight into
> the telephone pole with a BANG that was loud even where we were 200 ft
> away. That groundskeeper probably needed an underwear change!

600's a BIT optimistic. 300 I'd believe.

My toys start with H engines, and I'm certed through J. I've broken mach,
but it took a few more logs on the fire than an E engine will give.

The mos hideous question we get is for a "schematic for a radio controlled
launcher" or a "computer controlled launcher"...  It always sounds like a
cool idea, until you understand the penalties for one wrong ignition.

I was at the meet here in muncie when AFAIK the first injury directly
related to model rocketry occurred. A fellow was prepping his bird, and had
his head over/inside the body, when the computer-controlled ejection malfed,
blowing at least a gram of FFFF powder in his face.  We had an optometrist
on him in seconds (damn good luck!) and an ambulance rolling in a few more
seconds. His sunglasses saved his eyes.

This computer controlled recovery system is commonly used, but apparently
his safety interlocks weren't functional, and it blew.  They sense by
barometric sensor, and it may be that a drop of sweat or conductive debris
hit the controller board.

1999\10\14@094448 by Sean H. Breheny

face picon face
At 01:39 AM 10/14/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Not caused by the extra ignition.. E engines have a SERIOUS problem with
>cracked grains, resulting in explosion.

Ah, I see. We had speculated that the gunpowder he added had actually not
gone in the engine, but had accumulated elsewhere in the rocket. I guess
your explanation is more likely.

>600's a BIT optimistic. 300 I'd believe.

Again, you are probably right. My guess was based on #1) I thought that
normal,light D-engined rockets reach nearly 340 kts vertically. #2) This
one had an E in a D body #3) It lost its fins -> much less drag #4) It went
horizontal -> no gravity to beat (not a big factor, I realize)

SO,I knew it was unlikely that it went supersonic,but I felt that it would
have reached lower transonic region.

>
>My toys start with H engines, and I'm certed through J. I've broken mach,
>but it took a few more logs on the fire than an E engine will give.

Where do you get the money? Doesn't that get expensive REAL fast?

>
>The mos hideous question we get is for a "schematic for a radio controlled
>launcher" or a "computer controlled launcher"...  It always sounds like a
>cool idea, until you understand the penalties for one wrong ignition.
>

Yeah, but it does seem to me that there would be ways to make it every bit
as safe (i.e., actually preventing power from reaching the unit until you
turn a key,etc.)

>I was at the meet here in muncie when AFAIK the first injury directly
>related to model rocketry occurred. A fellow was prepping his bird, and had
>his head over/inside the body, when the computer-controlled ejection malfed,
>blowing at least a gram of FFFF powder in his face.  We had an optometrist
>on him in seconds (damn good luck!) and an ambulance rolling in a few more
>seconds. His sunglasses saved his eyes.

I don't know what FFFF powder is,but this definately doesn't sound good!
I have never gotten into serious rockets,but I'd like to. (non-sequitor to
previous comment!)

>
>This computer controlled recovery system is commonly used, but apparently
>his safety interlocks weren't functional, and it blew.  They sense by
>barometric sensor, and it may be that a drop of sweat or conductive debris
>hit the controller board.
>

Sounds like we're talking some serious altitude! How high have you gone?

I think the US is one of the few countries that allows people to launch J
engined rockets to Mach 1 and 30,000 feet!!! (of course, you need clearance
first for such an altitude. Shound need clearance for anything over 18,000
(lower end of mandatory IFR airspace) right?

Sean

|
| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
RemoveMEshb7TakeThisOuTspamcornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174

1999\10\14@152430 by Mark Willis

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face
Sean H. Breheny wrote:
> At 01:39 AM 10/14/99 -0500, you wrote:
> <snipped>
> >I was at the meet here in muncie when AFAIK the first injury directly
> >related to model rocketry occurred. A fellow was prepping his bird, and had
> >his head over/inside the body, when the computer-controlled ejection malfed,
> >blowing at least a gram of FFFF powder in his face.  We had an optometrist
> >on him in seconds (damn good luck!) and an ambulance rolling in a few more
> >seconds. His sunglasses saved his eyes.
>
> I don't know what FFFF powder is,but this definately doesn't sound good!
> I have never gotten into serious rockets,but I'd like to. (non-sequitor to
> previous comment!)

FFFF is Black Powder, F is cannon grain (coarse), FF Rifle grade, FFF
Pistol grade (fairly fine), FFFF is "primer pan" (for flintlocks)
typically.  It burns really fast (appears to "explode", darn near!),
that was a pretty serious accident - GLAD it turned out so well.  (I've
always seen these as FFG, FFFG, locally, IIRC.)

> >This computer controlled recovery system is commonly used, but apparently
> >his safety interlocks weren't functional, and it blew.  They sense by
> >barometric sensor, and it may be that a drop of sweat or conductive debris
> >hit the controller board.

Can you say "Conformal Coating", chorused, folks?  <G>  Saving weight's
one thing, even a tissue paper thin conformal cover on that PCB would
have prevented this, probably.  Or powering off the ignition battery
before sticking his head in the unit.  (I've thought of making such a
system, with a "G" sensor like a sprung small weight being used to arm
the system, no power for ignition until (Switched on) && (Parachute is
present above sensor) && (waitfor: (G force > 2G), present for 1/4
second or more), or something like that.  Used to be heavily into model
rockets, no time lately, darnit!  Safety in design issue here, far as
I'm concerned - Anything that actuates something that can hurt/damage
someone, or any device designed to prevent injury, needs to be
well-thought-out with regards to not CAUSING injury...

 Mark

1999\10\14@154124 by Anne Ogborn

flavicon
face
>That question comes up with the existing systems. Maximum braking skids the
>wheels,  quickly wearing flatspots on them. So, the engineer is thinking,
>"I'm going to hit that idiot parked on the crossing anyway? Why screw up
>several hundred railcars in the bargain?"
>

No, the engineer is usually far more worried about:

a) psychological impact (terrible situation - to be supposedly in control,
but
actually able to do nothing - great guilt maker)

b) post crash investigation - My experience is, most RR employees could
care less about cost to RR compared to cost to their own career.

1999\10\14@193221 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
> 5G eh That aint no tinny rocket in my book do the sums for a typical train
> of 30 carrages each with 30 000Kg and an engine of 150 000
>


Why do you think I want to buy some when the project gets canned :)

You'd have to do it per car, of course, if you put all that on the front,
the rest would derail. Messy.

That's a whole lotta newtons though, even for one car's worth.
Actually, you could control the thrust curve fairly well by how the grain is
cored.

It would be really amusing if the rockets went off with load of pigs instead
of a load of steel! That would be "When pigs fly!".. Backwards!

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