Post by thread:[OT]:Terraforming (was water or Mars)

If we send humans to Mars, there WILL be life on mars as soon as a few human hairs or skin flakes fall on the surface. Humans are crawling with bacteria, even if they take regular baths. Humans cannot survive without bacteria in their gut and skin and mouths. Each of us walks around with a few billion of our closest friends. These bugs may not be adapted to Mars NOW, however they are found in every possible niche on Earth from the coldest Arctic to boiling hot springs and subterranean mines, one or two of the little devils will find a way to adapt. And then, watch out! We will then immediately loose the chance to ever know if there was native life on Mars as soon as we leave a footprint. I think this is a strong argument against sending people to Mars immediately. Let's probe around there with nice, clean robots for a few more decades and find out what is actually there, deep under the martian soil. Once we send a bacteria-infested human there, how will we tell the Natives from the superadapted Escherica Coli? Maybe they were there, maybe not? As soon as a human steps on the surface of Mars we will have effectively begun the process of terraforming Mars. Earth was a wasteland of carbon dioxide and methane atmosphere before microbes began producing Oxygen. Think "Jupiter" before it "bulked up". Algae and bacteria (and recently plants) are the reason Earth has an oxygen atmosphere in the first place. The first life, as far as we know, would have actually been poisoned by oxygen and was killed off after a wave of oxygen producing bacteria and algae swept over the planet. We still find the descendants of those original Oxygen-phobic bacteria living in deep ocean mud, producing methane burps. This is the process that will inevitably happen on Mars as soon as we contaminate it with Earth bacteria. It will take aeons, of course, but we will have begun it without thinking it through, without a plan. I would argue that, in a generation or two, we should seriously consider terraforming Mars, but only after our understanding of gigantic planet-wide processes has deepened tremendously. I would argue that it is foolhardy to introduce random bacteria into the Martian environment without fully considering the consequences. Eventually, we may even engineer bacteria specifically to survive Martian extremes, survive on the meager resources available, and produce oxygen and greenhouse gasses in quantities that could render the planet habitable. Finding subsurface moisture pockets and seeding them with engineered bacteria may be how we decide to start. It is fully possible that an oxygen atmosphere combined with the right greenhouse gasses would produce a chilly, but livable environment. If there ever was liquid water on Mars, then this happened at one time. We may augment the changes with industrial processes not dreamed of yet, but ultimately terraforming will involve introducing life specifically designed to multiply and thrive and produce the desired atmosphere. Today Mars is pretty formidable: temperature lows dwarfing the coldest antarctic winter on record, winds rivaling the fastest tornado, dust storms with dust as fine as cigarrette smoke that engulf the planet. It is a rough place, but it is the most hospitable planet besides our own that we know of. Terraforming a planet might be a project that would take 10,000 years, who knows, maybe millions? Surely if we are eventually to consider such a vast project, or even leave the possibility open, we can afford to wait a couple of decades to think about it some more. We are like teenagers, launching off into the unknown with no plan nor clue. A Manned mission to Mars is a fool's game, IMHO. -- Lawrence Lile "Gustaf J. Barkstrom" <spam_OUTgustaf.bTakeThisOuTCOX.NET> Sent by: pic microcontroller discussion list <.....PICLISTKILLspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU> 03/02/2004 05:54 PM Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list To: PICLISTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU cc: Subject: Re: [OT]: Nasa finds evidence of Water on Mars "Rover finds Mars was Wet Enough for Life". The key word in the headline is "was". I hope they find some fossil evidence, that would be cool. I can see the re-inauguration speech of Bush now, "we're going to liquiferate the Martian polar ice caps to make Mars inhabitable for humans." ;-) Gustaf > {Original Message removed}

Hi Lawrence: As far as I know, it would be unadvisable for even American earthlings to trample around Mars without a pretty tight space suit. Or did I miss something, like the gravity is about half that of earth, and that there is no atmosphere (save slight CO2) and no oxygen, etc. But to tell you the truth, I got a kick out of your humorous satire :-) Also, what you say about our close friends is true, but I think some people are really friendly and have a lot more close friends that others. :-)) ----- Original Message ----- From: <@spam@llileKILLspamSALTONUSA.COM> To: <KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [OT]:Terraforming (was water or Mars) {Quote hidden}> If we send humans to Mars, there WILL be life on mars as soon as a few > human hairs or skin flakes fall on the surface. Humans are crawling with > bacteria, even if they take regular baths. Humans cannot survive without > bacteria in their gut and skin and mouths. Each of us walks around with a > few billion of our closest friends. These bugs may not be adapted to Mars > NOW, however they are found in every possible niche on Earth from the > coldest Arctic to boiling hot springs and subterranean mines, one or two > of the little devils will find a way to adapt. And then, watch out! > > We will then immediately loose the chance to ever know if there was native > life on Mars as soon as we leave a footprint. I think this is a strong > argument against sending people to Mars immediately. Let's probe around > there with nice, clean robots for a few more decades and find out what is > actually there, deep under the martian soil. Once we send a > bacteria-infested human there, how will we tell the Natives from the > superadapted Escherica Coli? Maybe they were there, maybe not? > > As soon as a human steps on the surface of Mars we will have effectively > begun the process of terraforming Mars. Earth was a wasteland of carbon > dioxide and methane atmosphere before microbes began producing Oxygen. > Think "Jupiter" before it "bulked up". Algae and bacteria (and recently > plants) are the reason Earth has an oxygen atmosphere in the first place. > The first life, as far as we know, would have actually been poisoned by > oxygen and was killed off after a wave of oxygen producing bacteria and > algae swept over the planet. We still find the descendants of those > original Oxygen-phobic bacteria living in deep ocean mud, producing > methane burps. > > This is the process that will inevitably happen on Mars as soon as we > contaminate it with Earth bacteria. It will take aeons, of course, but we > will have begun it without thinking it through, without a plan. > > I would argue that, in a generation or two, we should seriously consider > terraforming Mars, but only after our understanding of gigantic > planet-wide processes has deepened tremendously. I would argue that it is > foolhardy to introduce random bacteria into the Martian environment > without fully considering the consequences. Eventually, we may even > engineer bacteria specifically to survive Martian extremes, survive on the > meager resources available, and produce oxygen and greenhouse gasses in > quantities that could render the planet habitable. Finding subsurface > moisture pockets and seeding them with engineered bacteria may be how we > decide to start. It is fully possible that an oxygen atmosphere combined > with the right greenhouse gasses would produce a chilly, but livable > environment. If there ever was liquid water on Mars, then this happened > at one time. We may augment the changes with industrial processes not > dreamed of yet, but ultimately terraforming will involve introducing life > specifically designed to multiply and thrive and produce the desired > atmosphere. > > Today Mars is pretty formidable: temperature lows dwarfing the coldest > antarctic winter on record, winds rivaling the fastest tornado, dust > storms with dust as fine as cigarrette smoke that engulf the planet. It > is a rough place, but it is the most hospitable planet besides our own > that we know of. > > Terraforming a planet might be a project that would take 10,000 years, who > knows, maybe millions? Surely if we are eventually to consider such a > vast project, or even leave the possibility open, we can afford to wait a > couple of decades to think about it some more. We are like teenagers, > launching off into the unknown with no plan nor clue. A Manned mission > to Mars is a fool's game, IMHO. > > > -- Lawrence Lile > > > > > > "Gustaf J. Barkstrom" <RemoveMEgustaf.bTakeThisOuTCOX.NET> > Sent by: pic microcontroller discussion list <spamBeGonePICLISTspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU> > 03/02/2004 05:54 PM > Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list > > > To: TakeThisOuTPICLISTEraseMEspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU > cc: > Subject: Re: [OT]: Nasa finds evidence of Water on Mars > > > "Rover finds Mars was Wet Enough for Life". The key word in the > headline is "was". I hope they find some fossil evidence, that would > be cool. I can see the re-inauguration speech of Bush now, "we're going > to > liquiferate the Martian polar ice caps to make Mars inhabitable for > humans." > ;-) > > Gustaf > > > > {Original Message removed}

llile@SALTONUSA.COM wrote: <snip> > Today Mars is pretty formidable: temperature lows dwarfing the coldest > antarctic winter on record, winds rivaling the fastest tornado, dust > storms with dust as fine as cigarrette smoke that engulf the planet. It > is a rough place, but it is the most hospitable planet besides our own > that we know of. > > Terraforming a planet might be a project that would take 10,000 years, who > knows, maybe millions? Surely if we are eventually to consider such a > vast project, or even leave the possibility open, we can afford to wait a > couple of decades to think about it some more. We are like teenagers, > launching off into the unknown with no plan nor clue. A Manned mission > to Mars is a fool's game, IMHO. > > > -- Lawrence Lile > Quoting from zebu.uoregon.edu/~soper/Mars/atmosphere.html <quote> Where did the atmosphere go? * Presumably it started out something like Venus. * Put most of CO2 in rocks (using rainfall), as on Earth. * Then the weaker gravity of Mars wasn't able to hold the rest of the atmosphere. * Ultraviolet light helps by breaking up molecules so that they are light enough to escape. * Not enough volcanos to replenish the atmosphere. * No plate tectonics. </quote> I guess you could crash a few comets in every once in a while, but the fact remains that Mars is just a little too small to hold a a warm atmosphere. I wonder if it could even hold oxygen to form an ozone layer? Lot of good (and bad) science fiction down the drain. I think that (if we last long enough to find out) the Earth is a very, very special place for life. Jim -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

Russell, On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 23:16:01 +1300, Russell McMahon wrote: > Terraforming of Venus has been examined at length (as may well be imagined). > The problems are intractably hard in the foreseeable future. >...< > Initial practising must be done on Mars :-) Indeed, let's just do one planet at at time, eh? :-) On the other hand, why not try to improve this one first? The problems should be smaller, and the airfare is a lot cheaper! Surely if we can't sort out where we are, a place that already supports life in abundance, why do we think we can in a place which is currently uninhabitable (subject to further survey :-) where it's many orders of magnitude more difficult? Or is this just a manifestation of the "Not Invented Here" syndrome, where most designers / engineers / programmers / whatever would prefer to build something from scratch to their own design, than to upgrade / improve / augment / debug someone else's design, even if it's "almost" working? Cheers, Howard Winter St.Albans, England -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

Hear Hear! Terraform Earth! The heck with those other planets! Actually I started this thread hoping to get a lively discussion about terraforming in general. -- Lawrence Lile Senior Project Engineer Toastmaster, Inc. Division of Salton, Inc. 573-446-5661 voice 573-446-5676 fax Howard Winter <RemoveMEHDRWTakeThisOuTH2ORG.DEMON.CO.UK> Sent by: pic microcontroller discussion list <PICLISTEraseME.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU> 03/04/2004 05:58 AM Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list To: EraseMEPICLISTMITVMA.MIT.EDU cc: Subject: Re: [OT]:Terraforming (was water or Mars) Russell, On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 23:16:01 +1300, Russell McMahon wrote: > Terraforming of Venus has been examined at length (as may well be imagined). > The problems are intractably hard in the foreseeable future. >...< > Initial practising must be done on Mars :-) Indeed, let's just do one planet at at time, eh? :-) On the other hand, why not try to improve this one first? The problems should be smaller, and the airfare is a lot cheaper! Surely if we can't sort out where we are, a place that already supports life in abundance, why do we think we can in a place which is currently uninhabitable (subject to further survey :-) where it's many orders of magnitude more difficult? Or is this just a manifestation of the "Not Invented Here" syndrome, where most designers / engineers / programmers / whatever would prefer to build something from scratch to their own design, than to upgrade / improve / augment / debug someone else's design, even if it's "almost" working? Cheers, Howard Winter St.Albans, England -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

Some of the martian dust storms engulf the entire planet in a blanket of dust. Think Hurricane Floyd's big brother. They can see dust devil tracks in some of the satellite photos. Yeah and with all those asteroids flinging around (or better yet comets - they contain lots of water and greenhouse gasses like methane) what if they miss with one? Goodbye New York City? maybe........ However bashing the planet with something big and wet would certainly create an ocean, at least for a little while until everything froze again. Might wet down all that dust too. Might also liberate the subsurface permafrost. Maybe you could nudge the planet a little closer to the sun, too. Oops - might fling the Earth out of orbit, and then we'd have a REAL problem. -- Lawrence Lile "Peter L. Peres" <RemoveMEplpEraseMEEraseMEACTCOM.CO.IL> Sent by: pic microcontroller discussion list <RemoveMEPICLISTspam_OUTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> 03/09/2004 02:02 PM Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list To: RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU cc: Subject: Re: [OT]:Terraforming (was water or Mars) > Hear Hear! Terraform Earth! The heck with those other planets! From the little I know about this just about the only valid technology for starting terraforming a place like Mars would be to start sending small probes to suitable asteroids and change their orbits so they impact (after a couple of years at least). Assuming the asteroids contain some water this may start a process of heating (from dust in the lower atmosphere) or greenhouse effect and bring conditions closer to what is needed for 'real' life over a couple of hundred years. I think that this is pure science fiction for now. I find it interesting that on the pictures from Mars there seems to be a lot of dust around. I would have expected there to be very little with that thin atmosphere and Mars's gravity. Peter -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

> From the little I know about this just about the only valid technology for > starting terraforming a place like Mars would be to start sending small > probes to suitable asteroids and change their orbits so they impact (after > a couple of years at least). Assuming the asteroids contain some water > this may start a process of heating (from dust in the lower atmosphere) or > greenhouse effect and bring conditions closer to what is needed for 'real' > life over a couple of hundred years. I think that this is pure science > fiction for now. Read Red Mars / Green Mars / Blue Mars for a serious and utterly superb (although obviously fictional) account of processes for Martian terraforming. I thought for a long time that the amount of water that he had available on Mars sub-surface for release for terraforming purposes was orders of magnitude greater than liable to be the case BUT ongoing and latest discoveries infer a vast amount of water present - some on the surface as water ice. Maybe not as much as he had but well up to small ocean status. > I find it interesting that on the pictures from Mars there seems to be a > lot of dust around. I would have expected there to be very little with > that thin atmosphere and Mars's gravity. Winds are often cyclonic in nature AFAIK - equivalent in nature to an earthly hurricane. Energy in dust is very small due to thin atmosphere - storms peak at many hundreds of kph apparently but you could probably still walk in such a wind - if you can keep the super fine dust out of your suit. Force is proportional to density, velocity squared and area, so a 400 kph wind with an atmosphere 1% as dense as earth's would have about the same force as a 40 kph wind on earth. RM -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.