Searching \ for '[OT]:Refilling HP smart cartridges - The Answer!' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: www.piclist.com/techref/index.htm?key=refilling+smart
Search entire site for: 'Refilling HP smart cartridges - The Answer!'.

Exact match. Not showing close matches.
PICList Thread
'[OT]:Refilling HP smart cartridges - The Answer!'
2001\11\12@184501 by Russell McMahon

picon face
> I got into conversation with a customer and the owner of the local
> printer shop yesterday. Both were frustrated by HP's new smart
> printer cartridges (eg HP6578) that cannot be refilled. Somehow
> the printer knows that it's been refilled and will not print. You have
> to buy a new cartridge, at a price significantly more than a refilled
> one. I've had a quick look around the web this morning and found
> that people are aware of the "problem" but no sign of an easy hack
> to get around it. Any suggestions or info ? My guess is perhaps a
> float of some kind that locks into a position when the ink runs out
> and connects/disconnects a wire that the printer needs



STOP PRESS

I CAN help here.
I thought Jinx's reference was to a specific printer and only subsequently
realised it was to a HP cartridge.
This is one of the types used in the HP G85 that I use.

The printer has a built in "damaging mechanism" that destroys the contacts
when the cartridge is removed so that it is no longer electrically useable.
There IS a way around this but it has to be done from the start.

CALIDAD make ink refills. These are sold at Dick Smith stores in NZ.
They include detailed directions for each type of printer and refill
instructions are customised accordingly.

The refill for these particular cartridges includes a patented anti-HP tool.
It consists of a simple piece of thin plastic (Mylar?) which is as wide as
the cartridge and slightly taller.  BEFORE you remove the cartridge for the
first time you undo the latch and slide the plastic down behind the
cartridge.This stops the damaging mechanism getting at the cartridge. After
refilling you MUST have the plastic in place as you reinsert the cartridge.
(Actually it may be that you only need it on removal but they say do it both
ways and its easy so I do).

This system works, but not forever.
I refilled one cartridge about 5 times (+/1 1 ? )before it stopped working.
As the refill cost is far far lower than the cartridge cost the wasted ink
from the final refill is still acceptable. The enthused may remove the ink
and use it in another cartridge :-).

CALIDAD provide quaint circular 3 piece pack that breaks into  3 separate
bottles. The provided filling needles and bottle seals are low cost and leak
badly and are not overly easy to use. Using 4 standard medical syringes
instead (3 colours and black) is FAR easier and less messy.

I inspected the non-functional cartridge briefly and couldn't see where the
damage was. Some time when I have more time than sense I may go back and see
if I can locate the damage mechanism and damaged contacts and see if the
cartridge can be easily repaired by raising the contact surfaces with eg
conductive epoxy blobs or similar.

Shame on you HP! What started as a company making superb world beating
products has largely degenerated into just another mass market maker of
commodity products with after market rip-off pricing for consumables. The
results are still superb and leading edge but the true intended cost of
ownership is iniquitous. I make any prospective HP owners aware of this
scurrilous practice - by all means buy HP if you like the product but be
aware of the true cost of ownership (and potential ways of reducing it).

Note that the printer continues to claim that the cartridge is empty, even
after a refill, but allows you to continue to use the "empty" cartridge.






     Russell McMahon
_____________________________

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
spam_OUTpiclist-unsubscribe-requestTakeThisOuTspammitvma.mit.edu


2001\11\12@223021 by Jinx

face picon face
> The printer has a built in "damaging mechanism" that destroys the
> contacts when the cartridge is removed so that it is no longer
> electrically useable.

Ah, but - if you try a refilled cartridge in the printer it came from it
won't work. Pop it in another printer and it will. True, I saw it myself
yesterday. Refill Lady says the cartridge she has has no apparent
damage

So there must be something that identifies a cartridge to the printer,
implying (no, I'm not an imp lying ;-))  there's some electronic skull-
duggery

The printers/cartridges I know about that this affects are, amongst
others, - G55, G85, G95, K60 K80, 930C, 950C, 955C, 970Cxi,
990Cxi, 1220C, HP6578, P1000, P1100, P1215, P1218

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
.....piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspamspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu


2001\11\12@232635 by Jinx

face picon face
> > The printer has a built in "damaging mechanism" that destroys the
> > contacts when the cartridge is removed so that it is no longer
> > electrically useable.
>
> Ah, but - if you try a refilled cartridge in the printer it came from it
> won't work

btw, she did discuss with the customer the setting up of a cartridge
"dating agency", as she's in a position to be able to co-ordinate a
refilled cartridge not going back to customer1 who brought it in,
but instead to customer2, customer3 gets customer2's cartridge
and so on

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
piclist-unsubscribe-requestspamKILLspammitvma.mit.edu


2001\11\12@233301 by Josh Koffman

flavicon
face
I wonder if the printer companies are going to start cracking down on
stuff like this. I wonder what the legalities of this is...is it like
pirating software? Refilling a cartridge is one thing, but deliberately
defeating mechanisms might be something else. Remember what happened
with defeating the copy protection on DVDs :) Don't get me wrong, I
don't support the printer companies at all in this, I just don't want
the entreprenuring businesspeople to get screwed in the end.

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

Jinx wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
.....piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspamspam.....mitvma.mit.edu


2001\11\12@234648 by dale.botkin

picon face
> with defeating the copy protection on DVDs :) Don't get me wrong, I
> don't support the printer companies at all in this, I just don't want
> the entreprenuring businesspeople to get screwed in the end.

And that would differ from the present situation in what way?  8-)

Dale

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu


2001\11\13@005112 by Jinx

face picon face
> I wonder if the printer companies are going to start cracking down
> on stuff like this. I wonder what the legalities of this is...

I reckon if you've paid for a cartridge, you own the bugger. How could
a printer company stop you swapping it for another ? I'm sure they'll
try, but it would be so easy to send the practice underground. And look
how brazen modchippers are now, once they used to be very shy and
shadowy. Aren't they complicit in the distribution of hacked Playstation
software ?

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\11\13@042118 by Russell McMahon

picon face
> > The printer has a built in "damaging mechanism" that destroys the
> > contacts when the cartridge is removed so that it is no longer
> > electrically useable.
>
> Ah, but - if you try a refilled cartridge in the printer it came from it
> won't work. Pop it in another printer and it will. True, I saw it myself
> yesterday. Refill Lady says the cartridge she has has no apparent
> damage
>
> So there must be something that identifies a cartridge to the printer,
> implying (no, I'm not an imp lying ;-))  there's some electronic skull-
> duggery
>
> The printers/cartridges I know about that this affects are, amongst
> others, - G55, G85, G95, K60 K80, 930C, 950C, 955C, 970Cxi,
> 990Cxi, 1220C, HP6578, P1000, P1100, P1215, P1218

Seems to be several things happening here.
My G85 does allow refilling multiple times when using the Calidad strip.
After multiple times it stopped working.

If what you say is correct then it may be that there is NO damaging
mechanism (contrary to what is claimed by Calidad) and my printer may work
with the old cartridge if I try it again subsequently - provided that the
printer doesn't keep a list of all the cartridges it has known :-). This
would be easy enough for it to do. However, if there is NO damaging
mechanism (and Calidad are wrong) then what does their piece of plastic
do? - it manifestly does something as the cartridge can be reused. As the
plastic is inserted after the clamp is undone and removed before the clamp
is done up again, it should not do anything electrical.

Thoughts?

   Russell

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\11\13@042129 by Russell McMahon

picon face
> I wonder if the printer companies are going to start cracking down on
> stuff like this. I wonder what the legalities of this is...is it like
> pirating software? Refilling a cartridge is one thing, but deliberately
> defeating mechanisms might be something else. Remember what happened
> with defeating the copy protection on DVDs :) Don't get me wrong, I
> don't support the printer companies at all in this, I just don't want
> the entreprenuring businesspeople to get screwed in the end.

A typical arms race.As far as I understand it, from the wording of the
licence, overcoming DVD zone limitations is not ILLEGAL - just a mechanism
that "they" put in place to try to make you do their will. As they are
entitled to do. Similarly the printer cartridge makers are allowed to do
really stupid things to rip you off. I would be surprised if it was illegal
for you in turn to do stupid things to try and stop them. I also suspect
that in my country at least the schemes used by printer makers are actually
illegal. But we will have to see.


       Russell McMahon

.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\11\13@042734 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>> The printer has a built in "damaging mechanism" that destroys the
>> contacts when the cartridge is removed so that it is no longer
>> electrically useable.
>
>Ah, but - if you try a refilled cartridge in the printer it came from it
>won't work. Pop it in another printer and it will. True, I saw it myself
>yesterday. Refill Lady says the cartridge she has has no apparent
>damage
>
>So there must be something that identifies a cartridge to the printer,
>implying (no, I'm not an imp lying ;-))  there's some electronic skull-
>duggery

My pick would be that there is a serial number rom in the cartridge (perhaps
a chip version of an I-Button serial number device) and the printer
recognises it has seen that serial number before, possibly storing the
serial numbers seen in a database using a hashing algorithm. It would
probably not need to store many numbers to make most people believe there is
some magic smoke somewhere in the cartridge that makes the printer know it
is finished, and unusable, so they give up on trying refills.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\11\13@045932 by Russell McMahon

picon face
> >> The printer has a built in "damaging mechanism" that destroys the
> >> contacts when the cartridge is removed so that it is no longer
> >> electrically useable.
> >
> >Ah, but - if you try a refilled cartridge in the printer it came from it
> >won't work. Pop it in another printer and it will. True, I saw it myself
> >yesterday. Refill Lady says the cartridge she has has no apparent
> >damage
> >
> >So there must be something that identifies a cartridge to the printer,
> >implying (no, I'm not an imp lying ;-))  there's some electronic skull-
> >duggery
>
> My pick would be that there is a serial number rom in the cartridge
(perhaps
> a chip version of an I-Button serial number device) and the printer
> recognises it has seen that serial number before, possibly storing the
> serial numbers seen in a database using a hashing algorithm. It would
> probably not need to store many numbers to make most people believe there
is
> some magic smoke somewhere in the cartridge that makes the printer know it
> is finished, and unusable, so they give up on trying refills.


That idea fits Jinx's model and experience but not mine (which I got from
the leaflet in the refill package).
Mine DEFINITELY allow multiple refills in the same printer if you use the
supplied antidamage strip.
MAYBE they would have anyway ???

One that finally died does show damage to the contacts consistent with what
you would expect from plugging into a sharp object such as a contact.
Nothing is obviously "frangible" - more research needed.



   R




.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\11\13@051632 by Jinx

face picon face
> One that finally died does show damage to the contacts consistent
> with what you would expect from plugging into a sharp object such
> as a contact. Nothing is obviously "frangible" - more research needed

If you find someone with one of the other models try your supposedly
dead cartridge in it. No idea what to say about Calidad

I've needed to pull the cartridge from my HP a couple of times and it
still works when put back in. HP wouldn't be dumb enough to damage
a working cartridge - their retailers wouldn't stand for p'd off customers
for one thing

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\11\13@114517 by Sean H. Breheny

face picon face
Why couldn't there be an EEPROM in the cart which is written to by the
printer after every actuation of the printhead? In other words, the EEPROM
could contain a number, say 1 million, and it would be decremented after
each "squirt" from the printhead and when it reaches zero, the printer no
longer accepts the cart? This would mean that the cart couldn't be reused,
even in another printer.

Sean

At 10:59 PM 11/13/01 +1300, you wrote:


{Quote hidden}

----------------------------------------------------
Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today
Only $9.95 per month!
http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\11\13@123719 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Why couldn't there be an EEPROM in the cart which is written to by the
>printer after every actuation of the printhead? In other words, the EEPROM
>could contain a number, say 1 million, and it would be decremented after
>each "squirt" from the printhead and when it reaches zero, the printer no
>longer accepts the cart? This would mean that the cart couldn't be reused,
>even in another printer.

The normal way of doing this is to have a low current fuse in the cartridge
which is blown, sometimes on insertion of the cartridge, and the printer has
a sensor that knows when the cartridge has been removed (sometimes a hall
effect sensor rather than a microswitch) and then keeps a running total in
its own memory, or else keeps the running total and then blows the fuse when
the cartridge is empty, possibly again with a removal sensor.

Fitting a cartridge with a good fuse then causes the printer to reload the
"full cartridge" values into the running total registers.

A colleague of mine used to have a cartridge that had been fitted with a
polyfuse to reset printers where the cartridge had been removed at the wrong
time by operators, just to get around this system, and I believe the
refillers just fit another fuse.

This is why I suspect the newest cartridges now have one of those serial
number chips in it. If it was an EPROM with the count in it, then the
refillers would very soon wake up to it, and reload the data themselves.
With the serial number chip there is nothing in the cartridge electronics to
reload, because it cannot be altered, but is uniquely identifiable.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\11\13@135950 by Jinx

face picon face
> This is why I suspect the newest cartridges now have one of those
> serial number chips in it. If it was an EPROM with the count in it,
> then the refillers would very soon wake up to it, and reload the data
> themselves. With the serial number chip there is nothing in the
> cartridge electronics to reload, because it cannot be altered, but
> is uniquely identifiable

The refiller I've been talking about is a franchisee, and she and the
others have sussed out the Epson cartridges and how to reset them
after refilling. They have tried and failed to do the same with the HP
cartridges, so an ID chip sounds likely

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\11\13@172650 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> Ah, but - if you try a refilled cartridge in the printer it came from it
> won't work. Pop it in another printer and it will.

Serial number in cartridge remembered by printer. Try to pop in another
(empty) cartridge, then put the refilled one in. If it starts working, it
has a short memory. If not, there may be that the printer remebers *all*
the cartridges it ever saw and *counts* them. Whether it will refuse to
operate after a number of them is another question.

Peter

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\11\15@161709 by brandon

flavicon
face
The 'destroying' mechanism could be a high power voltage spike that just kills all the internal contacts. Lots of little fuses maybe.

You have to realise that HP loses money for every printer that they sell. To make up for the loss and to make a profit, they sell the ink.

_____________________________________________________________
Get your free email here at http://www.e-ha.com

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\11\15@191216 by Russell McMahon

picon face
> You have to realise that HP loses money for every printer that they sell.
To make up for the loss and to make a profit, they sell the ink.


I have heard numerous people say this but have not seen anything that
supports it and I do not believe it is true. At a slim profit maybe. HP are
utterly expert in producing volume products at low cost and "what the market
will bear" selling prices. Compare their prices to those for similar spec
equipment from companies who support refillability - the differences are not
great.



   Russell McMahon

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\11\16@121649 by Harold M Hallikainen

picon face
       Seems like the heaters in the cartridge might just blow themselves out
when there's no ink to cool them off...

Harold

On Thu, 15 Nov 2001 13:16:08 -0800 Brandon Irwin <brandonspamspam_OUTE-HA.COM>
writes:
{Quote hidden}

FCC Rules Online at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules
Lighting control for theatre and television at http://www.dovesystems.com

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
dl.http://www.juno.com/get/web/.

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email @spam@listservKILLspamspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2001\11\16@134809 by Jinx

face picon face
> > You have to realise that HP loses money for every printer that they
> > sell. To make up for the loss and to make a profit, they sell the
> > ink.

If HP want to sell printers below cost, that's their problem. When the
local supermarket has loss leaders, I don't buy one and then insist on
paying what it's really worth. It is not compulsory to be in any business.

HP have chosen their line of business and their marketing tactics. If I
can find a hack to re-use expensive cartridges then I'll do it guiltlessly

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email KILLspamlistservKILLspamspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 2001 , 2002 only
- Today
- New search...