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'[OT]:Refilling HP smart cartridges'
2001\11\12@150534 by Jinx

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I got into conversation with a customer and the owner of the local
printer shop yesterday. Both were frustrated by HP's new smart
printer cartridges (eg HP6578) that cannot be refilled. Somehow
the printer knows that it's been refilled and will not print. You have
to buy a new cartridge, at a price significantly more than a refilled
one. I've had a quick look around the web this morning and found
that people are aware of the "problem" but no sign of an easy hack
to get around it. Any suggestions or info ? My guess is perhaps a
float of some kind that locks into a position when the ink runs out
and connects/disconnects a wire that the printer needs

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2001\11\12@154727 by Tom Messenger

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This is the first I've heard about HP doing this. Having an Epson printer,
I'm on the epson inkjet discussion list and this has been a hot topic most
of this year since Epson has been making the carts on the newer printers as
'smart carts'. It looks like they simply have an nvram on the cart. The
printer keeps track of how much ink it "thinks" it has delivered and even
if you refill the cart, it will no longer let you continue using it.

There exist after-market special carts that allow you to defeat this.  With
my Epson, I now use a product from "NoMoreCarts"(.com) which is a bulk ink
setup.  The ink is around 100 times less expensive and because the bottles
are 4 ounces rather than 1/2 ounce, you don't have to worry so much about
running dry and clogging the print head.

No doubt, there exist enterprising entrepreneurs engaging in engineering
elegant excellent ersatz "work arounds" to the problem for the HP units. Or
one might guess...


At 09:02 AM 11/13/01 +1300, Jinx wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2001\11\12@164506 by Jinx

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> 'smart carts'. It looks like they simply have an nvram on the cart

Wouldn't be hard to bury an SMT IC in the case. But how would
the printer know that it was a refill ? Something must happen in
the refilling process to change the cartridge

I helped a friend defeat his Xerox (I think) copier that had a page
counter. It would stop when the "recommended" number of pages
had been printed using the current cartridge, even if there was still
oodles of toner left. The hack was to simply zero the page-counting
EEPROM in the copier. Eventually the toner would run out but he
was happy enough to get that 30% "extra" that he'd paid for

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2001\11\12@170759 by Jinx

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> No doubt, there exist enterprising entrepreneurs engaging in
> engineering elegant excellent ersatz "work arounds" to the
> problem for the HP units. Or one might guess...

Well, perhaps for homers but so far it seems not on the commercial
side. My refill lady says they are aware of the Epson method and
use a reprogrammer to clear the chip in the cartridge. Apparently
HP tried chips some time ago but found they were susceptible to
just that and have now come up with something more fiendish. She's
not exactly sure what. One day when she gets a spare empty one
she'll pass it over for dissection. One good thing to come out of
being a sticky-beak and engaging in counter chat is that she'll keep
an eye out for an HP cartridge I've been looking for. I was given a
Deskjet 400 minus cartridge. Great, I thought. Until I found out the
replacement cartridge will be $89.95 (robbers !!!! It's a bottle of ink
dammit !!). Huh, some gift. If I play my cards right and get her some
help with the refilling problem maybe I can score a discount

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2001\11\12@172450 by Russell McMahon

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> I got into conversation with a customer and the owner of the local
> printer shop yesterday. Both were frustrated by HP's new smart
> printer cartridges (eg HP6578) that cannot be refilled. Somehow
> the printer knows that it's been refilled and will not print. You have
> to buy a new cartridge, at a price significantly more than a refilled
> one. I've had a quick look around the web this morning and found
> that people are aware of the "problem" but no sign of an easy hack
> to get around it.

The long term answer, which won't help you this time is NEVER EVER again but
from manufacturers who do this.
Canon are offering refillable tank "technology". I have never considered
buying a Canon in the past but will do so from now on, as long as they
persist in this. It's also highly probably that, in NZ, this practice
violates the Commerce Act and the consumer guarantees act.

I have a superb HPG85 all in one printer/scanner/fax. It is a marvellous
printer and scanner. I am very happy with it. I will never buy another HP
again if they persist with the system they have on the G85 or the one's you
mention. The G85 has a cartridge damaging system which purposefully damages
the frangible contacts when you remove it after use. The refill people
provide a means to defeat this system. It works, at least for a number of
fills. The cost difference is extreme and shows that HP are making an
iniquitous profit on their disposables. All it needs is consumer awareness
and consumer action.




     Russell McMahon
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2001\11\12@180524 by Tom Messenger

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The printer does not know that you have refilled it. What it "knows" is
that the standard cart is good for 59,000 (or whatever) squirts of ink.
When it has dispensed that many, it says "Sorry! You are out of ink. Please
install a new cart" even if there is lots of ink leftover. If you pull the
cart and refill it, when you replace it in the printer, the printer reads
the chip and says, "Hey, this is the same cart that I just told you was
empty. Take a hike!"

With the Epsons, people have measured that the average amount of ink
delivered is about 2/3 of the ink in the cart before the light goes on and
you have to change out the cart.  The Epson standard ink at Epson
cart-prices is estimated to cost around $5,000 to $8,000 per gallon.

I have read folklore that the HP carts include the actual piezo print head.
Good: a brand new head every time you buy a new cart. Bad: heads expect to
get replaced after very short life and have not been designed to last long.
So refilling the cart means the head wears out after 3 or 4 refills. I
don't know for certain whether this is still the way things are though.

I have been *very* happy with my nomorecarts system.


At 10:41 AM 11/13/01 +1300, you wrote:
>> 'smart carts'. It looks like they simply have an nvram on the cart
>
>Wouldn't be hard to bury an SMT IC in the case. But how would
>the printer know that it was a refill ? Something must happen in
>the refilling process to change the cartridge

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2001\11\12@203049 by Gerhard Fiedler

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At 11:01 11/13/2001 +1300, Russell McMahon wrote:
>The cost difference is extreme and shows that HP are making an iniquitous
>profit on their disposables.

FWIW, the worst I've seen in this respect is a Lexmark printer. The printer
costs approx. 3 (original) cartridges...

On another, related note: there are these electric toothbrushes, which seem
to use a similar strategy. The funny thing was that I found those
replacement toothbrushes to be quite a lot cheaper in Brazil. This is a
strange thing because they are imported, and since Brazil has quite high
import taxes, imported goods are usually considerably more expensive than
in the origin country. My only explanation for this is that these
replacement parts are so cheap, that the final price is exclusively
determined by what they think they can charge -- and they seem to think
they can charge more in the US than in Brazil.

>All it needs is consumer awareness and consumer action.

Well said!

ge

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2001\11\12@203549 by Jinx

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> The printer does not know that you have refilled it. What it "knows" is
> that the standard cart is good for 59,000 (or whatever) squirts of ink.

FWIW HP cartridges come to the refiller bone dry. Epson's do have ink
left in them

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2001\11\12@204340 by Jinx

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> FWIW, the worst I've seen in this respect is a Lexmark printer. The
> printer costs approx. 3 (original) cartridges...

I came across some stats about how much you expect to pay for ink
over the lifetime of the printer - which could be 20 years if my old dot
printers are anything to go by. Makes you shudder. Even at home I'll
use a black and a colour in a year (especially if the kids get their mitts
on it !!) which at retail would cost around $160. 1/2 a printer. In even a
small office you might go through cartridges in 2-3 months, possibly
$3000+ a year just for ink

It seems outrageous in a way, but if you consider that you need to get
the car fuelled up or you can't use it...........

The difference seems to be that no one has successfully made a 3rd
party drop-in replacement for many HP printers (nomorecartridges
notwithstanding), which leaves you nowhere to go but the printer
company

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2001\11\12@205017 by dale

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> I came across some stats about how much you expect to pay for ink
> over the lifetime of the printer - which could be 20 years if my old dot
> printers are anything to go by. Makes you shudder. Even at home I'll
> use a black and a colour in a year (especially if the kids get their mitts
> on it !!) which at retail would cost around $160. 1/2 a printer. In even a
> small office you might go through cartridges in 2-3 months, possibly
> $3000+ a year just for ink

We've got a nice HP E-size plotter at work (drool, drool)...  takes four ink carts at a time at US$27 each.  They do seem to last a good while.  Maybe if you spend $7K on a plotter the hit doesn't seem as bad.  Vellum at $60 per 3x150' roll doesn't seem too bad though.

Dale
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On my desk I have a workstation...

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2001\11\12@205042 by David VanHorn

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>
>I came across some stats about how much you expect to pay for ink
>over the lifetime of the printer - which could be 20 years if my old dot
>printers are anything to go by. Makes you shudder. Even at home I'll
>use a black and a colour in a year (especially if the kids get their mitts
>on it !!) which at retail would cost around $160. 1/2 a printer. In even a
>small office you might go through cartridges in 2-3 months, possibly
>$3000+ a year just for ink
>
>It seems outrageous in a way, but if you consider that you need to get
>the car fuelled up or you can't use it...........

If my car worked this way, I'd be spending $600/gallon for gas.
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2001\11\12@205646 by David VanHorn

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HP might be a good stock to short.

A friend informs me that their whole focus (unless they dump Carly) is
going to be on maneuvers like this.  This is a far cry from the HP that I
grew up with.  You knew it would be expensive, but you knew that it would
be rock solid, and that there was tons of solid engineering behind it.

I'm so glad that Tek hasn't followed the same path.

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2001\11\12@205946 by Jinx

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> The printer does not know that you have refilled it. What it "knows" is
> that the standard cart is good for 59,000 (or whatever) squirts of ink.
> When it has dispensed that many, it says "Sorry! You are out of ink.


The example I gave of the copier is a little different. It measures pages,
not toner. So if you ran off 30,000 miniscule letterheads, that's still an
absolute 30,000 "average" pages as the copier reckons it, but in fact
you may used just a few percent of an "average" page

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2001\11\12@210732 by Jinx

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> If my car worked this way, I'd be spending $600/gallon for gas.
> --
> Dave

You still could - does NASA employ owner-drivers ?

Is this true ? Someone told me that NASA spent millions to develop
a ball-point pen that writes in space. The Russians use pencils

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2001\11\12@211122 by Dale Botkin

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On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, David VanHorn wrote:

> A friend informs me that their whole focus (unless they dump Carly) is
> going to be on maneuvers like this.

<cynic>
Because they see everyone else getting away with it, sadly...  Look at the
companies who tried to keep their integrity intact when entering the
consumer market, it reads like the obituaries.  Now look at the "success
stories" -- ah, there's where that stable floor residue ended up!
</cynic>

> This is a far cry from the HP that I grew up with.  You knew it would
> be expensive, but you knew that it would be rock solid, and that there
> was tons of solid engineering behind it.

<cynic>
But now you can sell millions to people with no technical comprehension
whatsoever just by investing enough into slick ads and market hype.  HP
doesn't *have* to care about technicians and engineers any more, they can
be a commodity consumer electronics company now.  It's so much easier when
you don't have to make things *good*, just "good enough" -- don't you
think?  8-P
</cynic>

> I'm so glad that Tek hasn't followed the same path.

If they start making PC peripherals, just give 'em time.

Dale

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2001\11\12@211540 by David VanHorn

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At 03:04 PM 11/13/01 +1300, Jinx wrote:
> > If my car worked this way, I'd be spending $600/gallon for gas.
> > --
> > Dave
>
>You still could - does NASA employ owner-drivers ?
>
>Is this true ? Someone told me that NASA spent millions to develop
>a ball-point pen that writes in space. The Russians use pencils

Yes, Fischer space pen, now sold to us mortals.

Millions isn't as big as you think though.
Developing even a trivial product is certainly in that arena, and
development for mass production is more expensive. You spend a kilodollar
up front to save pennies, but the pennies are multiplied 1000000 times in
production.

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2001\11\12@212354 by Kathy Quinlan

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From: "Dale Botkin" <RemoveMEdaleTakeThisOuTspamspamBOTKIN.ORG>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTspamspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: [OT]:Refilling HP smart cartridges


> > I'm so glad that Tek hasn't followed the same path.
>
> If they start making PC peripherals, just give 'em time.


Ummm Dale mate they do, they make a phaser <sp?> colour laser printer, they
are great, not sure on the consumable price though, I just used em, not
purchased the refills ;o)

Regards,

Kat.

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2001\11\12@213034 by David VanHorn

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At 08:09 PM 11/12/01 -0600, Dale Botkin wrote:
>On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, David VanHorn wrote:
>
> > A friend informs me that their whole focus (unless they dump Carly) is
> > going to be on maneuvers like this.
>
><cynic>
>Because they see everyone else getting away with it, sadly...  Look at the
>companies who tried to keep their integrity intact when entering the
>consumer market, it reads like the obituaries.  Now look at the "success
>stories" -- ah, there's where that stable floor residue ended up!
></cynic>

I agree completely. I hope the HP board fully appreciates that we engineers
now have no reason to trust that HP has a superior product, or indeed has
even an acceptable product.

In '95 or so, I had an interesting experience with HP. I forget the exact
model number, but we rented an EMC analyzer for about $3k. This was
necessary, because I had (gasp) failed part 15.

Never had THAT happen before!  So, of course I wanted to find out what went
wrong.

The HP analyzer was totally unable to even find the noise.  This was
puzzling, because when we did the open field test, the engineers from the
other test site came over and asked us to please turn ours off, as it was
making it impossible for them to make accurate measurements.  (When I blow
it, I blow it BIGTIME!)

It turned out that the board was radiating about 20mW near 160 MHz.

The funny part is that I was originally going to suggest that we simply buy
a decent wideband receiver, and troubleshoot it that way, but I figured
that I had just tanked my credibility on the subject, and I went with the
"classic" approach.

Well, we went back to the ham store, bought the receiver, and within
minutes of unpacking it, had located the spike, and within an hour we knew
where I had failed to make my ground impedance low enough.

The HP rep later admitted to me that their new DSP based units "don't pick
up pulsed noise very well"..  !@#!@$!#%%$%#

Now, I just use my receiver to do prescans, and saved the equivalent of a
loaded range rover.



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2001\11\12@213111 by Josh Koffman

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This happens with many products. For instance, you can expect to pay
about the same number of dollars for a halfway decent industrial safety
harness in the US as in Canada, but the US dollar is worth about 1.6
times as much as the Canadian dollar. Ropelight is also cheaper here, as
are printers, DVDs, and CDs. Odd isn't it? :)

Josh

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fools.
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> On another, related note: there are these electric toothbrushes, which seem
> to use a similar strategy. The funny thing was that I found those
> replacement toothbrushes to be quite a lot cheaper in Brazil. This is a
> strange thing because they are imported, and since Brazil has quite high
> import taxes, imported goods are usually considerably more expensive than
> in the origin country. My only explanation for this is that these
> replacement parts are so cheap, that the final price is exclusively
> determined by what they think they can charge -- and they seem to think
> they can charge more in the US than in Brazil.

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2001\11\12@213324 by David VanHorn

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At 10:26 AM 11/13/01 +0800, Kathy Quinlan wrote:
>From: "Dale Botkin" <KILLspamdalespamBeGonespamBOTKIN.ORG>
>To: <EraseMEPICLISTspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
>Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 10:09 AM
>Subject: Re: [OT]:Refilling HP smart cartridges
>
>
> > > I'm so glad that Tek hasn't followed the same path.
> >
> > If they start making PC peripherals, just give 'em time.
>
>
>Ummm Dale mate they do, they make a phaser <sp?> colour laser printer, they
>are great, not sure on the consumable price though, I just used em, not
>purchased the refills ;o)

High end wax printer.
Not meeting with a lot of success though, judging by the number on ebay for
essentially shipping costs.  Still, the Tek refills are just a stick of
wax, no tricky chips to make you think you're out of crayons when you're not.

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2001\11\12@214813 by Dale Botkin

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On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Kathy Quinlan wrote:

> From: "Dale Botkin" <spamBeGonedalespamKILLspamBOTKIN.ORG>
> To: <.....PICLISTspam_OUTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 10:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [OT]:Refilling HP smart cartridges
>
>
> > > I'm so glad that Tek hasn't followed the same path.
> >
> > If they start making PC peripherals, just give 'em time.
>
>
> Ummm Dale mate they do, they make a phaser <sp?> colour laser printer, they
> are great, not sure on the consumable price though, I just used em, not
> purchased the refills ;o)

Yes, but they have not yet decided to make that sort of thing their main
source of income, as HP did.

Dale

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2001\11\12@215845 by Kathy Quinlan

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I do not think they ever will, (I still say they should stick to making good
test equipment)

Although I am cracking the shits with tek atm. the software that comes with
the TDS220 Comms module is not fully functioning, ie you can not save
preferences, or wave forms, you have to cut and paste into paint :o( I do
not think the programming handbook describes how to download screen
captures, or I would write a decent app :o(

So I have to buy the new version, and that is like buying ink cartridges
(although I think it is more than the cost of the comms module for the
software :o((((

Regards,

Kat.
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{Original Message removed}

2001\11\13@010639 by uter van ooijen & floortje hanneman

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> I agree completely. I hope the HP board fully appreciates that we
engineers
> now have no reason to trust that HP has a superior product, or indeed has
> even an acceptable product.

I am using my second HP inkjet now (first was the good old 500) but I have
no complaints about the price of ink: a liter of refill ink I bought years
ago for maybe $25 (plus maybe 1 cartridge each year) still serves me well.
And the refill ink is sufficently UV dark to be used for coarse PCB work.

Wouter van Ooijen

Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
Jal compiler for PIC uC's:  http://www.voti.nl/jal

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2001\11\13@031903 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

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>The difference seems to be that no one has successfully made a 3rd
>party drop-in replacement for many HP printers (nomorecartridges
>notwithstanding), which leaves you nowhere to go but the printer
>company

       The nomorecarts system for HP printers would be a very very very interesting product, he he he ;o)))


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2001\11\13@031915 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

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>Ummm Dale mate they do, they make a phaser <sp?> colour laser printer, they
>are great, not sure on the consumable price though, I just used em, not
>purchased the refills ;o)

       Expensive, but reasonable. I had one, and was totally satisfied. Note this is not a "consumer's" printer, but only for good proofs and extremely special works. Not the kind of people you put in the bedroom of your 4 years' old kid ;o)


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.....taitospamRemoveMEterra.com.br
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2001\11\13@042303 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Now, I just use my receiver to do prescans, and saved the equivalent of a
>loaded range rover.

I take it you have bought a new company car out of the savings then ;)

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2001\11\13@051211 by Russell McMahon

picon face
Wouter,

I think you miss the point here.
With the LATEST HP printers you cannot use your refill ink as the cartridge
works hard to pretend it's empty after you refill it.


> I am using my second HP inkjet now (first was the good old 500) but I have
> no complaints about the price of ink: a liter of refill ink I bought years
> ago for maybe $25 (plus maybe 1 cartridge each year) still serves me well.
> And the refill ink is sufficently UV dark to be used for coarse PCB work.
>
> Wouter van Ooijen

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2001\11\13@053949 by Kathy Quinlan

flavicon
face
If HP does allow you to damage cartridges by putting them in and taking them
out, how do you use the printer ???

I have a Canon A3 printer, which I put a big black tank in for non colour
stuff IE A3 Schematic and PCB Panel drafts (I get the PCB house to photoplot
the final) a Photo tank for the photographic reproductions, a standard
colour tank for kids rubbish <grrrr they use to much ink ;o) >, I may change
each head tank assembly 20 times per life of the ink.

Regards,

Kat.

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2001\11\13@083719 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Alexandre Domingos F. Souza wrote:

> >Ummm Dale mate they do, they make a phaser <sp?> colour laser printer, they
> >are great, not sure on the consumable price though, I just used em, not
> >purchased the refills ;o)
>
>         Expensive, but reasonable. I had one, and was totally
> satisfied. Note this is not a "consumer's" printer, but only for good
> proofs and extremely special works. Not the kind of people you put in
> the bedroom of your 4 years' old kid ;o)

Yep...  I remembered after I responded to Kat's post that the Phaser is a
*really old* printer, as printers go, and was definitely NOT a consumer
grade product.  These suckers were quite expensive new, and I think the
cost per page when new (early 90's) was about US$1.  We were comparing
those at the time to an HP color laser for a customer, he HP won out due
to being far cheaper per page to print.  Tek has since sold the entire
line to Xerox, and as far as I can tell from their web site no longer
makes a single piece of consumer electronics.

Dale

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2001\11\13@085555 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Yep...  I remembered after I responded to Kat's post that the Phaser is a
>*really old* printer, as printers go, and was definitely NOT a consumer
>grade product.  These suckers were quite expensive new, and I think the
>cost per page when new (early 90's) was about US$1.  We were comparing
>those at the time to an HP color laser for a customer, he HP won out due
>to being far cheaper per page to print.  Tek has since sold the entire
>line to Xerox, and as far as I can tell from their web site no longer
>makes a single piece of consumer electronics.

Tektronix still make the Phasor range of colour printers - my work has just
installed a brand new one. They still seem to be the best colour printers
around without going to the high class inkjet plan printers that the
advertising guys use to do signs on photo quality roll paper.

The only problem with the Phasor printers is they only seem to do them in
A4/letter size that I am aware of.

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2001\11\13@090517 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
--
Hallo, this is Linus Torvalds and I pronounce Linux as Leennuks.
Hallo, this is Bill Gates and I pronounce 'crap' as 'Windows'.

On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Alan B. Pearce wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Odd...  I didn't see any mention of them on Tek's web site, other than a
link to the Xerox division that Tek says acquired the product line.  You
sure it still says Tektronix on it?  Xerox sells Phaser "solid ink" color
printers in up to B size.

Dale

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2001\11\13@094505 by Mark Skeels

picon face
(snip)


> The funny part is that I was originally going to suggest that we simply
buy
{Quote hidden}

(endsnip)

Now, exactly how do you go about doing this? I ghuess you scan with the
receiver and wait for the radio to stop on the carrier?

Mark

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2001\11\13@102545 by David VanHorn

flavicon
face
At 10:29 PM 11/13/01 +1300, Russell McMahon wrote:
>Wouter,
>
>I think you miss the point here.
>With the LATEST HP printers you cannot use your refill ink as the cartridge
>works hard to pretend it's empty after you refill it.

What happens if you refill it before it's empty, and without removing it
from the printer?

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2001\11\13@103402 by David VanHorn

flavicon
face
>
>Now, exactly how do you go about doing this? I ghuess you scan with the
>receiver and wait for the radio to stop on the carrier?

I use the large knob on the front, provided for that purpose. :)

The "scan" function isn't really very dependable, there are always lots of
emitters around that need to be ignored.  With a little practise, and a
convenient on/off switch, the parts that come from my product are easy to
determine.

I also built a screen box, which lets me make more deterministic measurements.
It's simply a box, of double sided PCB material, with all seams soldered.
The lid has inner and outer overlaps, and finger stock to assure solid
contact.

With all that being done, you'd expect easy measurements, but nothing
worked in a repeatable manner until I lined the inside with MOSfoam. Turns
out (and you knew this) that putting an emitter inside a tight shielded box
is like putting light in a box of mirrors.

I put mosfoam slabs now in my computer cases, inside ziplock bags, cuts way
down on the amount of hash in the office.  I've also used them in
transmitters and receivers.
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2001\11\13@105116 by Andrew E. Kalman

flavicon
face
Re:
>The only problem with the Phasor printers is they only seem to do them in
>A4/letter size that I am aware of.


Not only that, but these printers (e.g. Phaser 850) do only a very
limited range of paper sizes up to 8.5x11".

For example, you cannot do "custom" paper sizes -- only the sizes
that have been preprogrammed into the machine as acceptable -- about
7, as I recall.
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2001\11\13@130302 by Mark Skeels

picon face
> I also built a screen box, which lets me make more deterministic
measurements.
> It's simply a box, of double sided PCB material, with all seams soldered.
> The lid has inner and outer overlaps, and finger stock to assure solid
> contact.
>
That's pretty neat; do you have  a picture of it?

Mark

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2001\11\13@131426 by David VanHorn

flavicon
face
At 12:25 PM 11/13/01 -0600, Mark Skeels wrote:
> > I also built a screen box, which lets me make more deterministic
>measurements.
> > It's simply a box, of double sided PCB material, with all seams soldered.
> > The lid has inner and outer overlaps, and finger stock to assure solid
> > contact.
> >
>That's pretty neat; do you have  a picture of it?

Picture a box... 2' x 2' x 8"  :)

I used 1" stock to make the lid gasket. The trick is to do the lid before
you solder the sides to the bottom. Make some triangle gussets for the
corners to hold the box square.

I put the test subjects on a little microwave tray, and I have a loop
antenna, and some thru-bulknead signals using bulkhead wall BNC connectors.

I've been meaning to shoot one, but I don't have one yet.

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2001\11\13@135146 by Harold M Hallikainen

picon face
On Tue, 13 Nov 2001 14:40:33 +1300 Jinx <spamBeGonejoecolquitt@spam@spamspam_OUTCLEAR.NET.NZ>
writes:
>
> The difference seems to be that no one has successfully made a 3rd
> party drop-in replacement for many HP printers (nomorecartridges
> notwithstanding), which leaves you nowhere to go but the printer
> company
>

       HP's website has a press release about a settlement with a company that
DID make a compatible cartridge. HP sued them for patent infringement.
The company no longer makes the cartridge. The patent is on thermal ink
jet technology.

Harold


FCC Rules Online at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules
Lighting control for theatre and television at http://www.dovesystems.com

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2001\11\13@141753 by Jinx

face picon face
> > This is why I suspect the newest cartridges now have one of those
> > serial number chips in it. If it was an EPROM with the count in it,
>
> The refiller I've been talking about is a franchisee, and she and the
> others have sussed out the Epson cartridges and how to reset them
> after refilling. They have tried and failed to do the same with the HP
> cartridges, so an ID chip sounds likely
>
Hmmm, maybe there are two mechanisms. An ID chip would identify
the cartridge to the printer, but not the state of fill. And a refilled one
works perfectly well in any other printer, so it isn't damaged. I think I
should ask her to try and get a cartridge to go under the knife. Dare I
ask HP why my refilled cartridge doesn't work ?

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2001\11\13@153947 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> I was given a Deskjet 400 minus cartridge. Great, I thought. Until I
> found out the replacement cartridge will be $89.95 (robbers !!!! It's
> a bottle of ink dammit !!). Huh, some gift.

The manufacturers are in the business of making money. So having pared
down printers to the point where they last almost under 1 year (i.e.
warranty), the only way to lower customer price and still make $$ is to
mark up something that is not covered under warranty. This is not a new
idea, but I am surprised that customer lobbies are so slow reacting to
this ? They are not robbers, they have found a legal loophole in customer
rights laws (the ones that oblige them to publish prices in ads and stand
by them etc.), and are happily grazing in that pasture. Have been for a
while now.

Peter

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2001\11\13@154627 by uter van ooijen & floortje hanneman

picon face
> I think you miss the point here.
> With the LATEST HP printers you cannot use your refill ink as the
cartridge
> works hard to pretend it's empty after you refill it.

Did you do a good search for info on how this actually works? I recall an
article in the local computer magazine last month or so about defeating the
mechanism by scratching some trace at the bottom of the cartridge before it
considers itself empty. The were some more magical things needdad after the
refilling. But even if this howto is not available today - when this
particular printer becomes popular it will be available very soon - I just
love the internet!

Wouter

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2001\11\13@155835 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

flavicon
face
>Yep...  I remembered after I responded to Kat's post that the Phaser is a
>*really old* printer, as printers go, and was definitely NOT a consumer
>grade product.  These suckers were quite expensive new, and I think the
>cost per page when new (early 90's) was about US$1.  We were comparing
>those at the time to an HP color laser for a customer, he HP won out due
>to being far cheaper per page to print.  Tek has since sold the entire
>line to Xerox, and as far as I can tell from their web site no longer
>makes a single piece of consumer electronics.

       But in Brazil is more or less common to find an old Phaser II for about $200 and supplies for it cheaper than inkjet. Of course, NOS (new/old stock), but cheap as hell. (trrrimmm, telephone call) (back from the phone, falling in love...) I had one working Phaser, and another needing the paper cassete that's IMPOSSIBLE to find in Brazil (even in Tektronix distribuitors). BTW, the surplus market in Brazil is beginning to grow, how nice!

       Hmmm, back to the phone, I have some things to do... ;o)


---8<---Corte aqui---8<----

Alexandre Souza
TakeThisOuTtaitospamspamterra.com.br
http://planeta.terra.com.br/lazer/pinball/

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2001\11\13@161519 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

flavicon
face
>The manufacturers are in the business of making money. So having pared
>down printers to the point where they last almost under 1 year (i.e.
>warranty), the only way to lower customer price and still make $$ is to
>mark up something that is not covered under warranty. This is not a new
>idea, but I am surprised that customer lobbies are so slow reacting to
>this ? They are not robbers, they have found a legal loophole in customer
>rights laws (the ones that oblige them to publish prices in ads and stand
>by them etc.), and are happily grazing in that pasture. Have been for a
>while now.

       Peter, you will think it's strange, but I LOVE IT

       Look at the beneficials:

       1 - I can get a printer for CHEAP. Man, I said CHEAP. Did I said C H E A P???? An inkjet printer that costed about $500 now costs about $50. Cheap as hell, as americans say. In Brazil, even the poorest can afford an inkjet with photo quality print.

       2 - The carts CAN be refilled. Or as said in Brazil, "remanufactured". Some can't but there will be a way to do. http://www.nomorecart.com gave me a great idea - their product/idea can be adapted to every lovely printer in the world. I'm in process of modifying an old HP500 to use a BIG bottle of ink, and giving it to someone who prints a lot, like my neighbourhoods (wow, this is hard to spell, sorry if I got wrong). If it works, I'll do it in "some" tens of Epsons I have in my locker. And never mind changing carts again. Epson printers can even use the tube directly connected to the pins that sucks the ink from the cart, I THINK. Time for some experiences here.

       3 - Old printers are cheap sources of great parts. I got tens of Epsons 500, 600 and like, to scrap batteries, MOSFETs, EPROMs, small gears (robotics are a passion), motors, belts, screws, funny ICs, PSUs, LEDs and others that children love, and electronics' beginners need ;o) Maybe an "electronics 101" in the local comunity house, for poor people and small children - do you remember when you first energized a motor? And controlled the bright of a LED with a potentiometer? ;o)))

       4 - obsolescence - if I used the right word. I have an OLD (man, that's what I call OLD) Canon BJC 4100. Do you know why? Because IT WORKS. Every time. The inkheads doesn't gets clogged and the carts are cheap. Of course the printout compared with new printers is like comparing a 3DfX with an old MSX or Sinclair Spectrum. But I only need it, I seldom print anything. And when I print, is one or two pages. Just for reference. Now that I have a palmtop (man, Palm Vx RULEZ!), I don't even need to carry any piece of paper with me. Even photos I store on the palmtop. But if I want (and open my hand, and maybe taking off that old spider from my pocket), I CAN afford a brand new printer, with photo quality and like.

       5 - Experiences. Have you tried to use an inkjet printer to print a CD? It CAN be done and I DID! Of course, without alignment and quality. But only because I'm too lazy to build the entire mech necessary to draw the CD correctly thru the print mecha. Of course, a "PC Board Printer" is also in the works - change the ink of the cart by the acid-resistant one, and feed the board thru the mecha of the printer, modified to use a paper "something" thicker. Here you have your "Poor's man PC Board printer". Of course it can only be done because an HP500 costs around $10 nowadays. I even gave one 520 away to my lovely (hmmm, insert the female of "landlord" here, forgot the dictionary somewhere). As you see, now you can do lots of crazy experiences that bring knowledge and praticity (?) to your life.

       6 - Fun. You can do anything with printers - even smashing it with your new 6-kilos hammer. It's fun! Trust me!

       As you can see, why not have "discardable" printers? So bad we don't have discardable palmtops and digital cameras yet...wait...in Japan, there ARE discardable digital cameras! Oh my! ;o)))


---8<---Corte aqui---8<----

Alexandre Souza
taitoEraseMEspamterra.com.br
http://planeta.terra.com.br/lazer/pinball/

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2001\11\13@162900 by David VanHorn

flavicon
face
>
>         But in Brazil is more or less common to find an old Phaser II for
> about $200 and supplies for it cheaper than inkjet. Of course, NOS
> (new/old stock), but cheap as hell. (trrrimmm, telephone call) (back from
> the phone, falling in love...) I had one working Phaser, and another
> needing the paper cassete that's IMPOSSIBLE to find in Brazil (even in
> Tektronix distribuitors). BTW, the surplus market in Brazil is beginning
> to grow, how nice!

If you told some of your international buddies the part number, we might be
able to locate one for you.

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2001\11\13@163523 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
>         But in Brazil is more or less common to find an old Phaser II
> for about $200 and supplies for it cheaper than inkjet. Of course, NOS
> (new/old stock), but cheap as hell. (trrrimmm, telephone call) (back
> from the phone, falling in love...) I had one working Phaser, and
> another needing the paper cassete that's IMPOSSIBLE to find in Brazil
> (even in Tektronix distribuitors). BTW, the surplus market in Brazil
> is beginning to grow, how nice!

They were awesome printers, very nice, and I figured someone would really
love them some day when you could pick them up surplus/used for cheap.  I
wouldn't mind having one...  no, strike that, too much hassle at home, too
much power consumption, and the kids are the only ones who ever whine
about not having color printing.  Right now my old LJ4M is still hanging
in there.  We go through an $85 toner cart every couple of years.

Dale

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2001\11\13@164640 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

flavicon
face
>If you told some of your international buddies the part number, we might be
>able to locate one for you.

       Thanks ;o) But it was some 2 years ago, and I wasn't still connected to the piclist. Thanks for the offering anyway.


---8<---Corte aqui---8<----

Alexandre Souza
RemoveMEtaitoEraseMEspamspam_OUTterra.com.br
http://planeta.terra.com.br/lazer/pinball/

---8<---Corte aqui---8<----

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2001\11\13@185723 by Josh Koffman

flavicon
face
Interesting Dave. Do you use the black pourous stuff, or the pink sort
of closed cell kind?

Josh

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fools.
       -Douglas Adams

> I put mosfoam slabs now in my computer cases, inside ziplock bags, cuts way
> down on the amount of hash in the office.  I've also used them in
> transmitters and receivers.
> --
> Dave's Engineering Page: http://www.dvanhorn.org

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2001\11\13@193024 by David VanHorn

flavicon
face
At 07:09 PM 11/13/01 -0500, Josh Koffman wrote:
>Interesting Dave. Do you use the black pourous stuff, or the pink sort
>of closed cell kind?

The black stuff.
The pink isn't low enough impedance.

It's quite effective. Every bounce off a wall has to go through the foam
twice.
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Bi-directional read of UPC-A, UPC-E, EAN-8, EAN-13, JAN, and Bookland, with
two or five digit supplemental codes, in an 8 pin chip, with NO external parts.

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2001\11\13@205136 by Russell McMahon

picon face
> >With the LATEST HP printers you cannot use your refill ink as the
cartridge
> >works hard to pretend it's empty after you refill it.
>
> What happens if you refill it before it's empty, and without removing it
> from the printer?


I don't know YET but I intend to find out.
Fill holes in colour cart are on top.
On black they are underneath and you reseal after access.
Alternative fill mode on B&W may be possible.
On the G85 access is a little difficult.

   RM

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2001\11\13@205148 by Russell McMahon

picon face
> > > This is why I suspect the newest cartridges now have one of those
> > > serial number chips in it. If it was an EPROM with the count in it,
> >
> > The refiller I've been talking about is a franchisee, and she and the
> > others have sussed out the Epson cartridges and how to reset them
> > after refilling. They have tried and failed to do the same with the HP
> > cartridges, so an ID chip sounds likely
> >
> Hmmm, maybe there are two mechanisms. An ID chip would identify
> the cartridge to the printer, but not the state of fill. And a refilled
one
> works perfectly well in any other printer, so it isn't damaged. I think I
> should ask her to try and get a cartridge to go under the knife. Dare I
> ask HP why my refilled cartridge doesn't work ?


You could, but don't expect a useful answer.
It says something like "for single use" on the packaging :-(


       RM

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2001\11\13@205153 by Russell McMahon

picon face
> They are not robbers, they have found a legal loophole in customer
> rights laws (the ones that oblige them to publish prices in ads and stand
> by them etc.), and are happily grazing in that pasture. Have been for a
> while now.


They are robbers. But some forms of robbery is legal. In some countries
anyway. Arguably not here.
I appreciate well the need to be able to make a fair profit. And the right
to make an unfair one if the law allows. And the right of the consumer to
bypass the unfair methods if the law allows. Fun for all ! :-)



   RM

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2001\11\13@223221 by Ian Jordan

flavicon
face
One thing I haven't seen anyone discuss yet:

Would you rather pay $150 for the printer and $30 for ink carts, or $350 for
the printer and $8 for ink?

One look at companies like HP and Epson and you know they aren't making a
total mint. You guys act like these companies forced you to buy their
printers. They've just come to realize that the most effective way for them
to sell and attempt to make a profit is to be a loss leader on the actual
printers and make it up with the ink carts. Nothing wrong with that model.
It's exactly the same model as any buy now, pay later system.

How many people do you think would buy a $350 printer when there was just as
good of a printer sitting right next to it for $99? Not enough for that
company to stay in business...

--Ian

{Original Message removed}

2001\11\13@224957 by jim korman

flavicon
face
Ian Jordan wrote:

> One thing I haven't seen anyone discuss yet:
>
> Would you rather pay $150 for the printer and $30 for ink carts, or $350 for
> the printer and $8 for ink?
>
> One look at companies like HP and Epson and you know they aren't making a
> total mint. You guys act like these companies forced you to buy their
> printers. They've just come to realize that the most effective way for them
> to sell and attempt to make a profit is to be a loss leader on the actual
> printers and make it up with the ink carts. Nothing wrong with that model.
> It's exactly the same model as any buy now, pay later system.
>
> How many people do you think would buy a $350 printer when there was just as
> good of a printer sitting right next to it for $99? Not enough for that
> company to stay in business...
<snip>


Problem I have with that argument is,
"If I buy a Ford automobile, am I required to use only Ford
gasoline?" I'm sure people would get quite upset if the
engine stopped running after filling up with "Chevy" gas.

This is not the same kind of thing as disposable lighters
for example, where there could be a danger in refilling the
lighter. Just my $0.02 worth.

Jim

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2001\11\13@230449 by Kathy Quinlan

flavicon
face
Hi Jim on this idea, why has HP sued someone for making a replacement
cartridge, when companies like "repco" can manufacture parts for Ford cars
and not get sued ??/

Regards,

Kat.

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{Original Message removed}

2001\11\14@014546 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Kathy Quinlan wrote:

> Hi Jim on this idea, why has HP sued someone for making a replacement
> cartridge, when companies like "repco" can manufacture parts for Ford cars
> and not get sued ??/

Because Ford has not patented connecting rods and fuel pumps and fenders,
would be my guess.  I think HP sued for patent infringement because the
cartrige was covered by one or more patents.  Just a guess.

Dale

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2001\11\14@022427 by cdb

flavicon
face
Well Ian you have a point BUT, is it not silly when with one printer
manufacturer here in Aus, that its cheaper to buy a new printer from them
than two cartridges.

Admittedly its their bottom of the range printer and few people do the
calculations. I would suggest its the retailer who gains more from the
repeat business and at a slightly better mark up.

Colin

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2001\11\14@025610 by artstar

flavicon
face
Though many a printer tech have complained about people using
aftermarket inks in Epson printers, clogging print heads as a result.

Adios,
LarZ

---------------  TAMA - The Strongest Name in Drums  ---------------

{Original Message removed}

2001\11\14@025628 by artstar

flavicon
face
Actually, Calidad have released HP cartridges now for somme printers. It
surprised me considering that I always thought that since the print head
is part of the cartridge and is proprietary to the manufacturer, we
wouldn't ever see an aftermarket version.

Adios,
LarZ

---------------  TAMA - The Strongest Name in Drums  ---------------

{Original Message removed}

2001\11\14@030901 by Ian Jordan

flavicon
face
It's not silly if you don't assume the printer is only worth $99. Just
beacsue it sells for $99 doesn't mean it costs less than that to
manufacture. That could easily be a $250 printer that they sell for $99 to
get you hooked on their cartridges.

Many companies do this- the biggest one I can think of right now is the
Microsoft Xbox. Sells for $300, costs something like $450 to make. They make
it up when you buy their licensed software. The printers are no different.

Other loss-learder situations are things like the TiVo PVR, ISP rebates,
DirectTV recievers, Book/CD/DVD club intro offers, and just about any other
discount that is given for the first couple months of service. This is a
really common scheme just applied in a very creative way.

--Ian



> Well Ian you have a point BUT, is it not silly when with one printer
> manufacturer here in Aus, that its cheaper to buy a new printer from them
> than two cartridges.
>
> Admittedly its their bottom of the range printer and few people do the
> calculations. I would suggest its the retailer who gains more from the
> repeat business and at a slightly better mark up.
>
> Colin

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2001\11\14@044315 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

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>Would you rather pay $150 for the printer and $30 for ink carts, or $350 for
>the printer and $8 for ink?

       I pay 150 for the printer and 8 for the ink ;o)


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2001\11\14@045739 by Ian Jordan

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Jim,
   This is exactly what I am talking about. If you could buy a Ford Mustang
Cobra ($30K+ USD) that only runs Ford gas for $15K, would you do it? Or
would you rather spend the full $30K up front?

You pay Ford, HP, or Epson the same amount in the end. It just matters on
what day they get the dollars...

--Ian

{Quote hidden}

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2001\11\14@045806 by Cristian C.

flavicon
face
At 11/13/2001, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

No necessary, see below.

>Of course, a "PC Board Printer" is also in the works - change the ink of
>the cart by the acid-resistant one, and feed the board thru the mecha of
>the printer, modified to use a paper "something" thicker. Here you have
>your "Poor's man PC Board printer".

Seiko has a CDROM printer but the ink has to be protected with some plastic
coater after printing. They use normal water ink.
Do you know an acid-resistant ink good for 1200x1200 dpi?

What's about a modified laser printer, as their results are acid-proof?

{Quote hidden}

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2001\11\14@045818 by Mike Blakey

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A friend of mine looked into buying printer in bulk for his business, he was
offered hp 840 (budget model in the UK) for £5 each (GBP) thats about $10 USD each,
boxed, new with printer cartridges! only snag, was he would have to buy 100,000 of
them! but if they (hp) can make a profit on that, how much must it cost then to
make one?





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It's not silly if you don't assume the printer is only worth ¤99. Just
beacsue it sells for ¤99 doesn't mean it costs less than that to
manufacture. That could easily be a ¤250 printer that they sell for ¤99 to
get you hooked on their cartridges.

Many companies do this- the biggest one I can think of right now is the
Microsoft Xbox. Sells for ¤300, costs something like ¤450 to make. They make
it up when you buy their licensed software. The printers are no different.

Other loss-learder situations are things like the TiVo PVR, ISP rebates,
DirectTV recievers, Book/CD/DVD club intro offers, and just about any other
discount that is given for the first couple months of service. This is a
really common scheme just applied in a very creative way.

--Ian



> Well Ian you have a point BUT, is it not silly when with one printer
> manufacturer here in Aus, that its cheaper to buy a new printer from them
> than two cartridges.
>
> Admittedly its their bottom of the range printer and few people do the
> calculations. I would suggest its the retailer who gains more from the
> repeat business and at a slightly better mark up.
>
> Colin

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2001\11\14@045828 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>It's not silly if you don't assume the printer is only worth $99. Just
>beacsue it sells for $99 doesn't mean it costs less than that to
>manufacture. That could easily be a $250 printer that they sell for $99 to
>get you hooked on their cartridges.
>
>Many companies do this- the biggest one I can think of right now is the
>Microsoft Xbox. Sells for $300, costs something like $450 to make. They
make
>it up when you buy their licensed software. The printers are no different.
>
>Other loss-learder situations are things like the TiVo PVR, ISP rebates,
>DirectTV recievers, Book/CD/DVD club intro offers, and just about any other
>discount that is given for the first couple months of service. This is a
>really common scheme just applied in a very creative way.

It is the same model as used for cell phones as well. You get the phone at
somewhere between 10% and 25% of the manufacturing cost, and then pay over
the odds for access time. heaven help if you take your phone to another
country - international access charges will soon pay for the phone !!! Least
that is the way it currently is in Europe.

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2001\11\14@053045 by Russell McMahon

picon face
>     This is exactly what I am talking about. If you could buy a Ford
Mustang
> Cobra ($30K+ USD) that only runs Ford gas for $15K, would you do it? Or
> would you rather spend the full $30K up front?
>
> You pay Ford, HP, or Epson the same amount in the end. It just matters on
> what day they get the dollars...


Not so.
The present model is trying to make typical users pay more, possibly far far
more.
Work out a few examples.


   RM

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2001\11\14@054720 by Russell McMahon

picon face
> One thing I haven't seen anyone discuss yet:
> Would you rather pay $150 for the printer and $30 for ink carts, or $350
> for  the printer and $8 for ink?

That break even point occurs at about 11 cartridges - less than most users
would use in a printer's lifetime. Therefore the dearere printer cheaper ink
scenario is the better one.

> One look at companies like HP and Epson and you know they aren't making a
> total mint.

I see nothing to suggest that HP are not making a total mint on printers
overall.

>You guys act like these companies forced you to buy their
> printers. They've just come to realize that the most effective way for
them
> to sell and attempt to make a profit is to be a loss leader on the actual
> printers and make it up with the ink carts. Nothing wrong with that model.
> It's exactly the same model as any buy now, pay later system.
>
> How many people do you think would buy a $350 printer when there was just
as
> good of a printer sitting right next to it for $99? Not enough for that
> company to stay in business...

- They would if they had an honest presentation of the facts. Note that one
manufacturer does this with their "green" laser printers. Purchase price is
higher but total cost of ownership is FAR lower. People buy them.


- IMHO the prices charged for cartridges are gouging by any standard.
(In case anyone misses the point - it's plain (but possibly legal) theft
:-) ).

- For a moderate (not low) volume user the cost of ownership using the
disposable cartridge model is VERY much higher than if the printer was
several times dearer and ink was a fair price. Given that no equivalent
printers are several times dearer to buy, including those with refillable
tanks, something is aglae.

- Note that eg Canon are selling refillable tank printers at costs
comparable to those from eg HP.

- I very much doubt if the printers sell below cost - just at slim margins.
If the system is CL:EARLY a buy now pay later system and the user can make
an informed choice then fine. Choice by subterfuge is no choice at all. At
least, not the first time.

- You say that people are acting as if they are forced to buy their
printers. Effectively, until you discover the hard way that you have not
bought what you thought you had bought, then you are indeed being forced to
buy. NEXT time you are not - and as long as there is a choice I will never
again buy a printer whose cost of ownership is many times larger when used
as recommended than an equal performance alternative. Next purchase, if they
continue as they do now, Canon will have my close scrutiny. And I will
advise other buyers to look carefully as well.

- The fact that you "cannot" refill is largely hidden from buyers - its
certainly not advertised. I am usually a relatively (read VERY) careful
buyer of "technology" but I did not realise this before I bought.

- HP have been trying to stop refilling before now when prices were higher.
eg The HP500 cartridges were initially easily refilled but they "improved"
them with a spring system to make them leak when punctured. Refilling
methods had to be changed to cope.



           Russell McMahon

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2001\11\14@062737 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>- They would if they had an honest presentation of the facts. Note that one
>manufacturer does this with their "green" laser printers. Purchase price is
>higher but total cost of ownership is FAR lower. People buy them.

If you are talking about Kyocera, I understand that although their
replacement cartridges are expensive, they also last an extremely long time
compared to other manufacturers. This is what makes the cost of ownership
low.

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2001\11\14@143547 by Eric Smith

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face
Mike Blakey <RemoveMEmike.blakey@spam@spamspamBeGoneBAESYSTEMS.COM> writes:
> A friend of mine looked into buying printer in bulk for his business,
> he was offered hp 840 (budget model in the UK) for £5 each (GBP) thats
> about $10 USD each, boxed, new with printer cartridges! only snag, was
> he would have to buy 100,000 of them! but if they (hp) can make a
> profit on that, how much must it cost then to make one?

Seems very unlikely.  But if it's true, he should buy the printers,
resell the cartridges, and throw the printers away.  Or sell the
printers separately.

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2001\11\14@154538 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
Ian Jordan <.....ian@spam@spamEraseMETWINGLES.COM> wrote:
> Would you rather pay $150 for the printer and $30 for ink carts, or
> $350 for the printer and $8 for ink?

I'd buy a $600 and more printer assuming that they can prove that they
will have supplies for 5 years and that the total cost per page is
reasonable.

If you compute the cost per page for one of those 'cheap' printers, and
account for bad pages due to various causes, dirty pages, jammed pages,
and not-loaded pages you will end up with some really ugly numbers imho.
Numbers that will likely make you buy something good next time, even if
it costs double. Especially if you use it for work or if your clients see
what you print. And brand names don't seem to mean anything anymore.

Me I have my eyes on an old clunker Brother laser printer that does
300dpi^2 and weighs about a ton. It is an old refurbished unit a friend is
selling and I think I'll get it, for PCB and cabinet related work @home.
I'd expect it to last 5 more years with expert service. If anyone would be
selling something that solid now I'd try to buy it, but all you get is
plastic, plastic, plastic. I think that the only plastic part on that
Brother is the ink in the trade name on the box ;-).

Peter

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2001\11\14@164802 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

flavicon
face
>Seiko has a CDROM printer but the ink has to be protected with some plastic
>coater after printing. They use normal water ink.
>Do you know an acid-resistant ink good for 1200x1200 dpi?
>What's about a modified laser printer, as their results are acid-proof?

       But the Seiko printer costs around $1000 and my "modified-as-hell-printer" costs about $20 :o) A laser printer would dissolve the CD ;o)


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.....taitoRemoveMEspamterra.com.br
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2001\11\14@170149 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

flavicon
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>Me I have my eyes on an old clunker Brother laser printer that does
>300dpi^2 and weighs about a ton. It is an old refurbished unit a friend is
>selling and I think I'll get it, for PCB and cabinet related work @home.
>I'd expect it to last 5 more years with expert service. If anyone would be
>selling something that solid now I'd try to buy it, but all you get is
>plastic, plastic, plastic. I think that the only plastic part on that
>Brother is the ink in the trade name on the box ;-).

       HP Laserjet III. The battle tank of laser printers. Works like a charm, has a L O W cost per page, Postscript is cheap when not incluided from factory, has 1200 DPI Option (WinImage module), resolution enhancement (prints better than a dumb Xerox 600 DPI) and works for all your life. Is something to be inherited by your sons, and the sons of your sons. If HP did something well someday, surely the HP3 was THIS product.


---8<---Corte aqui---8<----

Alexandre Souza
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2001\11\14@181306 by Brent A. Crosby

flavicon
face
>Me I have my eyes on an old clunker Brother laser printer that does
>300dpi^2 and weighs about a ton. It is an old refurbished unit a friend is
>selling and I think I'll get it, for PCB and cabinet related work @home.
>I'd expect it to last 5 more years with expert service. If anyone would be
>selling something that solid now I'd try to buy it, but all you get is
>plastic, plastic, plastic. I think that the only plastic part on that
>Brother is the ink in the trade name on the box ;-).

Just bought a brand-new Minolta 1100L for $119 after rebate from CompUSA. Less than a toner cartridge for my other printer. It is only a "win" printer, and this model only has parallel, but the output seems great so far . . .

| Brent A. Crosby
| Crystalfontz America, Incorporated
| 15611 East Washington Road
| Valleyford, WA 99036-9747
| brentEraseMEspam@spam@crystalfontz.com http://www.crystalfontz.com
| voice (509) 291-3514 fax (509) 291-3345 US toll-free (888) 206-9720

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2001\11\14@184341 by Tom Handley

picon face
  Jinx, do you know if that lady has any experience with the Epson C80?
I just bought one last week and it looks like they use simple NVRAM
with the software making an assumption on how much ink has been used...
I do know that if one cartridge `appears' empty you have to replace it
before you can continue even if you are printing black and the cyan
`appears' empty... I would love to refill the black cart. One problem
for refillers will probably be the new Epson ink. Thanks,

  - Tom

At 08:14 14-11-01 +1300, Jinx wrote:
>> > This is why I suspect the newest cartridges now have one of those
>> > serial number chips in it. If it was an EPROM with the count in it,
>>
>> The refiller I've been talking about is a franchisee, and she and the
>> others have sussed out the Epson cartridges and how to reset them
>> after refilling. They have tried and failed to do the same with the HP
>> cartridges, so an ID chip sounds likely


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Handley
New Age Communications
Since '75 before "New Age" and no one around here is waiting for UFOs ;-)

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2001\11\14@192418 by Paul Hutchinson

flavicon
face
I think the HP840 is a discontinued model, so maybe the question isn't how
much it costs to make them but rather how much does it cost HP to dispose of
100,000 printers left in a warehouse in Europe.

My guess is that selling them for a million US$ gives HP a smaller loss than
paying to dispose of them. Especially if the disposal regulations across the
pond are as tight or tighter than here in Massachusetts, USA. Not to mention
there may be tax implications that only CFO's understand.

Paul

> A friend of mine looked into buying printer in bulk for his
> business, he was
> offered hp 840 (budget model in the UK) for #5 each (GBP) thats
> about $10 USD each,
> boxed, new with printer cartridges! only snag, was he would have
> to buy 100,000 of
> them! but if they (hp) can make a profit on that, how much must
> it cost then to
> make one?

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2001\11\14@223040 by Matthew Fries

flavicon
face
Funny you should say that....

I have over a dozen of those LaserJet III printers at work. All broken! All
with the same symptom: Fuser error or paper jam message. It sounds like the
capacitors in the AC power supply have dried out.

Days of swapping fusers and toner carts, and I would gladly trade them all
for a Deskjet 500!





>        HP Laserjet III. The battle tank of laser printers. Works like a
charm, has a L O W cost per page, Postscript is cheap when not incluided
from factory, has 1200 DPI Option (WinImage module), resolution enhancement
(prints better than a dumb Xerox 600 DPI) and works for all your life. Is
something to be inherited by your sons, and the sons of your sons. If HP did
something well someday, surely the HP3 was THIS product.

Remove the BALONEY from my email address.
-----------------------------------------------------
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2001\11\14@231618 by H. Carl Ott

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face
  I like the LJ-III. It is built like a tank, and the toner based print
engine allows me to make PCBs using transfer paper.
The most common problem I've experienced with LJ-IIIs is an error 50.
Sounds like half of your problems.
  The fix is to replace the triac that drives the fuser lamp. Sometimes
you have to also replace the opto coupler that drives the triac.
 At least these beasties are modular enough that you can repair them
yourself most of the time. Also, a lot of the parts from LJ-IIs are usable
in the III (making it easier to find those spare parts).
  The newer printers are way too integrated (at least for me) to find
replacement parts for them. But at the price you pay for the newer
generation printers, you might as well toss it, and buy a new one. Keeping
your old ink cartridge of course :-).

  For anyone trying to do repair on LJs, I've found the following site
very useful.
http://www.all-laser.com/

Regards,
 H. Carl Ott


At 09:28 PM 11/14/2001, you wrote:
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2001\11\15@033335 by Philip Pemberton

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Jinx <joecolquittspam_OUTspam@spam@CLEAR.NET.NZ> said:
> > FWIW, the worst I've seen in this respect is a Lexmark printer. The
> > printer costs approx. 3 (original) cartridges...
>
> I came across some stats about how much you expect to pay for ink
> over the lifetime of the printer - which could be 20 years if my old dot
> printers are anything to go by. Makes you shudder. Even at home I'll
> use a black and a colour in a year (especially if the kids get their mitts
> on it !!) which at retail would cost around $160. 1/2 a printer. In even a
> small office you might go through cartridges in 2-3 months, possibly
> $3000+ a year just for ink
Dare I suggest a mass-boycott? :-)
I've got a Canon BJC-4100 - only does 360dpi, but it does it well. UKP4.99
per black cartridge, UKP7.99 per colour cartridge, UKP40 for a printhead
module, a black cart and a colour cart. Need I say that this machine is
*very* cheap to run? :-)

> The difference seems to be that no one has successfully made a 3rd
> party drop-in replacement for many HP printers (nomorecartridges
> notwithstanding), which leaves you nowhere to go but the printer
> company
Have you seen the amount of paper HP are using to package their carts? Canon
and Epson use boxes that are scarcely bigger than the cartridge - HP use
hulking great things that could hold two cartridges!

Later.
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2001\11\15@051139 by Gerhard Fiedler

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At 08:34 11/15/2001 +0000, Philip Pemberton wrote:
>I've got a Canon BJC-4100 - only does 360dpi, but it does it well. UKP4.99
>per black cartridge, UKP7.99 per colour cartridge, UKP40 for a printhead
>module, a black cart and a colour cart. Need I say that this machine is
>*very* cheap to run? :-)

This is something that I've missed for a long time. I don't lke the HP idea
of exchanging the print head with each cartridge, and I don't like either
the Epson idea with a print head so integrated that an exchange usually
costs as much as a new printer. To have them separately exchangeable makes
perfect sense -- not only money-wise, also in terms of resource efficiency.
You bet that I have a very close look at Canon the next time I buy a
printer! :)

ge

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2001\11\15@054343 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>This is something that I've missed for a long time. I don't lke the HP idea
>of exchanging the print head with each cartridge, and I don't like either
>the Epson idea with a print head so integrated that an exchange usually
>costs as much as a new printer. To have them separately exchangeable makes
>perfect sense -- not only money-wise, also in terms of resource efficiency.
>You bet that I have a very close look at Canon the next time I buy a
>printer! :)

Not wanting to be derisive, but I can see you are someone who has not been
in the computer service trade dealing with gummed up print heads. The cost
of a service call to clean out an inkjet printer will cover the cost of
several cartridges with built-in printheads, believe me. There are very good
reasons manufacturers have gone this way in their supplies situation.

The same goes for integrated toner cartridge/print engine in laser printers.
The problems that get created because the toner has been allowed to run
right out, and the costs of replacing a scratched drum will soon outway the
extra expense of an integrated replacement cartridge.

This is not meant as a defence for the extremely high cost of some
replacement cartridges that are seen these days however, or the policies of
some manufacturers in the "you bought our printer, you must buy our
overpriced consumables" mentality. If the consumables were reasonably priced
the problem would be a non-problem.

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2001\11\15@055007 by P.J. McCauley

picon face
This Brother printer may well use the same printer engine (Canon LX) as the HP Laser Jet 3 which was
also used in many other printer brands. This engine is about 10 years old. There's lots of plastic
in there, but it is solid. I used a LJ3 for PCB prototyping work for many years until the formatter
board died. I "upgraded" to a HP 1100, but found the output accuracy very bad compared to the LJ3.
Parts from the LJ3 are still in service in my Brother laser printer (I forget the model number) If
the Brother printer you have your eye on uses the LX engine then it may be well worth getting. Lots
of repair info is on the net and lots of spare parts even if you do cannibalise from another
printer.
A good source for printer info is at http://fixyourownprinter.com/ . They exist to sell spare part
kits, but have some useful info as well.

Joe


{Original Message removed}

2001\11\15@065731 by Russell McMahon

picon face
> Have you seen the amount of paper HP are using to package their carts?
Canon
> and Epson use boxes that are scarcely bigger than the cartridge - HP use
> hulking great things that could hold two cartridges!


That is a purposeful move to make theft from displays harder.
As they are now such a valuable item they became attractive to steal.
Large size makes this harder.


       RM

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2001\11\15@085849 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

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>Funny you should say that....
>I have over a dozen of those LaserJet III printers at work. All broken! All
>with the same symptom: Fuser error or paper jam message. It sounds like the
>capacitors in the AC power supply have dried out.
>Days of swapping fusers and toner carts, and I would gladly trade them all
>for a Deskjet 500!

       This is the simplest problem I've ever seen in all printers I fixed, And the dumbest one. HP when doesn't do it in the entrance, does it in the exit ;o)

       This printer has the fuser controlled by an SCR. A BT136 or something. This BT is not heatsinked. So it fails. And gives this error you are seeing.

       Step by step to fix:

       1 - open the printer, and remove the external plastic "skirt", taking off 4 or 5 screws around it inside the printer
       2 - disconnect the control panel (only one IDC connector)
       3 - pull off the power supply - the big box on the down right
       4 - pull off the filter assembly - the black box with green tabs
       5 - pull off the AC unit, on the top right. That's where the AC enters
       6 - dismantle the AC unit, change the SCR (please, be gentle and put a small heatsink on it) and reassemble

       You have a new battletank ;o)

       I've fixed some 100s of HP2 and HP3 printers with the same problem. That's the only thing that happens on these printers, beyond fuser destruction. Nice printer to have! ;o)))

       BTW, I need the A4 paper cassete and the fuser assembly or only the fuser roller (the one covered with teflon) of the HP3. In USA it seems to be trash, in Brazil it is expensive to the hell! Maybe some friend from the list have a spare around ;o))) My HP3 became a dead brick, and I miss her working :o(((


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2001\11\15@090331 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

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face
>I've got a Canon BJC-4100 - only does 360dpi, but it does it well. UKP4.99
>per black cartridge, UKP7.99 per colour cartridge, UKP40 for a printhead
>module, a black cart and a colour cart. Need I say that this machine is
>*very* cheap to run? :-)

       Lucky you, the original carts in Brazil costs around UKP 30 for the black one and UK60 for the color one. :oP


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2001\11\15@123111 by Harold M Hallikainen

picon face
On Thu, 15 Nov 2001 07:07:27 -0200 Gerhard Fiedler
<.....gfiedlerspamRemoveMEGLOBO.COM.BR> writes:
> This is something that I've missed for a long time. I don't lke the
> HP idea
> of exchanging the print head with each cartridge, and I don't like
> either
> the Epson idea with a print head so integrated that an exchange
> usually
> costs as much as a new printer. To have them separately exchangeable
> makes
> perfect sense -- not only money-wise, also in terms of resource
> efficiency.
> You bet that I have a very close look at Canon the next time I buy a
> printer! :)
>

       Xerox also separates the ink tank from the print head. See their M940
and M950.

Harold

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2001\11\16@161141 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> That is a purposeful move to make theft from displays harder.
> As they are now such a valuable item they became attractive to steal.
> Large size makes this harder.

Do I detect a spot of paranoia ? (;-)

The boxes are larger for marketing reasons. You can't sell a small box for
more than a large box, no matter what's in it, for the majority of
consumers. See under Pentium CPU boxes and boxed software (w/o books). If
the size and flashiness is to reflect the price then by next X-mas you
will need a flatbed truck to take a PC video game box home ;-) Fortunately
the manufacturers quickly (within 1-2 years) realize that the volume
required for shipping increases roughly with the third power of the side
size of the boxes and color printing beyond a certain size is very
expensive ...

This is true twice over for products that have to compete on the shelf
with other makes, and thrice for products that are often bought as a gift
to a third party. Take an introductory marketing course ? It is an
eye-opener imho.

Peter

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2001\11\16@161236 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
1.) The Canon BJC-4100 and other printers does not seem to have separate
ink bottles marketed in all cuontries. Here you need to buy the whole head
because of that. There are also heads that have inseparable ink bottles.
A friend's is like this.

2.) I have looked at some discarded HP printers (HP495 or 695) and all I
can see is the usual gold/gold contacts for the head (prolly Rhodium
though). The contacts in the printer have sharp points and the head has
flat contacts. If the 'damaging' mechanism means the fact that the points
will make a small hole in the head pads when you pull it, thus destroying
the contacts, then know that most such heads are built like this. This is
not a damaging mechanism, it is the way to make good contacts between
flatcables of this kind. The thin plastic slip to be slid between before
removing makes sense now. I think that you can use mylar (Lexan?), or
carbonated drink bottle (plastic) or homemade carbonated d. bottle
(Lexan) to make one.

Peter

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2001\11\18@040928 by Bala Chandar

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face
I live in Bombay (now renamed Mumbai), India. Here, the cost of a 40ml black
ink HP cartridge is around Rupees 1400 (approximately US$23), which is close
to 30% of an entry level inkjet printer. As is well known, HP's marketing
strategy is to "Sell the printer cheap and make all the profit in
cartridges", which means that they really have to prevent the user from
finding a way to refill the cartridge and reuse it.

Here, many small shops have recently sprung up that provide the service of
refilling used cartridges of models like 690C, 670C and 640C. Refilling
costs 6% to 8% of the cost of a new cartridge and you get reasonably good
printouts if the cartridge is not completely dry and the minute pores on the
head are not clogged.

When the new models are introduced that make refilling almost impossible,
those people offering refilling services will have to come up with
counter-technology!

Regards,
Bala

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'[OT]:Refilling HP smart cartridges'
2003\01\14@205037 by Jinx
face picon face
> Tuesday, November 13, 2001 9:02 AM

Harking back to this old thread, I was told a couple of days
ago by someone in the industry that because of pressure from
large-volume commercial users (who obviously would rather
refill than buy new at twice the price), Canon, Epson et al are
allegedly in the process of abandoning smart cartridges

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2003\01\14@222221 by cdb

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face
On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:50:38 +1300, Jinx wrote:
rking back to this old thread, I was told a couple of days
ago by someone in the industry that because of pressure from
large-volume commercial users (who obviously would rather
refill than buy new at twice the price), Canon, Epson et al are
allegedly in the process of abandoning smart cartridges

There is a quango within the EEC (See I' m so old I'm not PC)
who are mounting a court action against the printer manufactures,
based on the idea of uncompetitive behaviour and restriction of
trade.

Colin
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2003\01\14@233626 by Jinx

face picon face
> There is a quango within the EEC (See I' m so old I'm not PC)
> who are mounting a court action against the printer manufactures,
> based on the idea of uncompetitive behaviour and restriction of
> trade.
>
> Colin

I've noticed ads like this appearing (full colour back page of this
week's NZ Listener - sorry, had to resize and reduce it to b/w)

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/epson.html

I wonder whether if this is coincidence or, because they're losing
the smart cartridge war, they're digging in and trying to just trash
the opposition. I'm surprised they didn't use "and OUR inks don't
cause cancer"

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2003\01\14@235325 by cdb

flavicon
face
On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:35:12 +1300, Jinx wrote:
I've noticed ads like this appearing (full colour back page of this
week's NZ Listener - sorry, had to resize and reduce it to b/w

To be fairish to the manufactures, their blurb isn't totally with out
fact. Some of the technology does require the ink to be of certain
specifications - mainly to stop gunging, but some do have added
extras. Plus of course the actual tone of the colours are specific to
the manufacturer - bit like Kodak colour film is slewed towards reds
and yellows, Fuji towards greens and 3M (hard to get) is neutral.

As the inks are proprietory it follows that the 3rd party
manufactures have to make educated/reversed engineered? guesses, and
if they were to have got the anti gunge factoring wrong then the
cartridge would go splat and I have seen a refillable cartridge that
leaked and did very nasty things to the printer.

Having said that they are of course not totally correct either, and
most refill kits cartridges these days are fine.

It should be noted that the manufactures make more profit out of
selling the consumables as does the retailer ,than selling the actual
printer.

colin
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2003\01\15@010650 by Jinx

face picon face
> Having said that they are of course not totally correct either, and
> most refill kits cartridges these days are fine.

I can understand their altruistic concern on our behalf (and it also
would reflect badly on their printer too - people don't always look
for the real reason - oh, it's that damn printer), but if you consider
a multinational franchise like Cartridge World, with their millions
of customers, it's not in CW's interest to cock it up. I've yet to have
a problem with their refills (40% or less of a new cartridge) and
they do seem to be up-to-date with ink developments

> It should be noted that the manufactures make more profit out of
> selling the consumables as does the retailer than selling the actual
> printer.

Exactly the grumble when the thread started. Knock-down h/w
price to hook you and then expensive ink to reel you in. Not an
unreasonable or unexpected strategy but is does ranckle

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2003\01\15@041638 by Vasile Surducan

flavicon
face
Colin, Joe,
Here there are many small firms which are living just refilling used
cardriges. However, HP color cargrige ( like 94A ) can be refilled only
onece, maybe twice times. A HP printer it costs about 50$ and a HP color
cardrige about 25$. Seems for me normal to refill it.

regards,
Vasile
http://www.geocities.com/vsurducan


On Wed, 15 Jan 2003, cdb wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2003\01\15@043504 by Jinx

face picon face
> Colin, Joe,
> Here there are many small firms which are living just refilling
> used cardriges. However, HP color cargrige ( like 94A ) can
> be refilled only onece, maybe twice times. A HP printer it
> costs about 50$ and a HP color cardrige about 25$. Seems
> for me normal to refill it.

For people not aware of the problem, this is what happens. If
you have a smart cartridge refilled, it may not work when you
put it back in the printer you took it from. However, it does work
in another printer. My refiller (Cartridge World) got around this
by swapping customers' refilled cartridges so that no one got
the same one back. It works until you run out of swaps, but having
several outlets in town means they trade them with other CW
branches. AFAIK they are still doing this quite successfully, but
sooner or later the bubble will burst and someone will have to start
buying new cartridges unless the anti-refill mechanism is defeated

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2003\01\15@043921 by Amaury Jacquot

flavicon
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On Wed, 2003-01-15 at 10:36, Jinx wrote:
> > Colin, Joe,
> > Here there are many small firms which are living just refilling
> > used cardriges. However, HP color cargrige ( like 94A ) can
> > be refilled only onece, maybe twice times. A HP printer it
> > costs about 50$ and a HP color cardrige about 25$. Seems
> > for me normal to refill it.
>
> For people not aware of the problem, this is what happens. If
> you have a smart cartridge refilled, it may not work when you
> put it back in the printer you took it from. However, it does work
> in another printer. My refiller (Cartridge World) got around this
> by swapping customers' refilled cartridges so that no one got
> the same one back. It works until you run out of swaps, but having
> several outlets in town means they trade them with other CW
> branches. AFAIK they are still doing this quite successfully, but
> sooner or later the bubble will burst and someone will have to start
> buying new cartridges unless the anti-refill mechanism is defeated

The EU is going after those manufacturers...


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2003\01\15@051521 by Claudio Tagliola

picon face
Hi all,

In a computer buyers guide in holland (Computer Totaal) was an article about
low budget printers. They stated that, with Lexmark printers, you got a
lower per-page price if you bought a new printer instead of a new cartridge.
Somehow, that doesn't make sense to me, I know the economics behind the high
cartridge price, but this reeks like something else.

Regards,
Claudio

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2003\01\15@053020 by Mike Harrison

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On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:15:50 +0100, you wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>In a computer buyers guide in holland (Computer Totaal) was an article about
>low budget printers. They stated that, with Lexmark printers, you got a
>lower per-page price if you bought a new printer instead of a new cartridge.
>Somehow, that doesn't make sense to me, I know the economics behind the high
>cartridge price, but this reeks like something else.
>
>Regards,
>Claudio

..except some manufacturers ship less-than-full carts with the printer.

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2003\01\15@053641 by Vasile Surducan

flavicon
face
On Wed, 15 Jan 2003, Claudio Tagliola wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> In a computer buyers guide in holland (Computer Totaal) was an article about
> low budget printers. They stated that, with Lexmark printers, you got a
> lower per-page price if you bought a new printer instead of a new cartridge.
> Somehow, that doesn't make sense to me, I know the economics behind the high

 The "live for buy" slogan has no sense for me either. This is the effect
of our  occidental societies which has learned the human being to
forget the real existence values and to criticize the orientals for some
things which they didn't forget yet.
So, let's buy, then threw to the garbage and buy again because we are
"democratic" and we can afford that things. The garbages from our world
are then imported and selled in some less rich worlds... and so on.
A simple thing it was to keep the cartdrige at a lower price ...
Vasile

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2003\01\15@053648 by hael Rigby-Jones

picon face
{Quote hidden}

And some ship slightly-more-than-empty ones...

Mike


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