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'[OT]:Hmmmmm'
2000\10\31@015033 by Jinx

face picon face
Big Brother Is Tracking You

New Law Requires Mobile Phones To Pinpoint Location
Handheld Devices, Car Navigation Systems Will Soon Track You
Microchip Monitors Vital Signs, Will Call 911

Imagine walking by a Starbucks in an unfamiliar city. Your cell phone rings,
and a coupon for coffee pops up on its screen, good only at that location.

How did your phone know you were even near that particular Starbucks ?
What else does it know about you ?

Enter location tracking, coming to a mobile device near you. Features
that one day can pinpoint your whereabouts to within the length of a foot-
ball field raise enormous privacy concerns, but they also offer enormous
benefits.

http://cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,245217-412,00.shtml

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2000\10\31@024708 by staff

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face
Wow. I don't like the sound of that much. I didn't vote for that law.
Hope it's only in the US, although all that means is a couple of years
respite until they get us too.

Suits the "powers that be" to keep all the peasants well tagged,
all actions monitored and in debt/servitude for life. Problem is I
don't see myself as one of those peasants. Do you?

I believe in democracy, ie; a law is just and should be obeyed if it
was voted in by majority of the population. If I can query a law with
all my peers, friends associates etc, and the majority do not approve
of that law, the law is unjust and should not be tolerated or obeyed.
As I am getting real political here I will shut up. :o)

But, I would like to pose a question, who here would vote for
*compulsory* location reporting from all mobile phones?

I vote NAY.
-Roman


Jinx wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2000\10\31@040805 by Jinx

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> Wow. I don't like the sound of that much. I didn't vote for that law.
> Hope it's only in the US, although all that means is a couple of years
> respite until they get us too.

The headlines are scary enough, the whole story is worse. It used
to be curfews and radio station commandeering

As an innocent citizen, of course, you know you have nothing to fear.
Until someone tries to make you guilty of something

More ammo ('scuse pun) for the New Militias and anti-federalists. UK
GCHQ already has overt powers to monitor content, who-knows-who
has covert or unpublicised powers. So now they can know where you
are, who you talk to, and what you say. And on top of that you'll get
spammed on the way to the cells

Anyone else remember peace of mind and peace and quiet ?

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2000\10\31@041019 by Dan Michaels

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Jinx wrote:
>Big Brother Is Tracking You
..........
>
>Enter location tracking, coming to a mobile device near you. Features
>that one day can pinpoint your whereabouts to within the length of a foot-
>ball field raise enormous privacy concerns, but they also offer enormous
>benefits.
>

But surely only in america. Right, Shirley?

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2000\10\31@044631 by Alan B. Pearce

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>Enter location tracking, coming to a mobile device near you. Features
>that one day can pinpoint your whereabouts to within the length of a foot-
>ball field raise enormous privacy concerns, but they also offer enormous
>benefits.

Time to remove the batteries from the mobile - just don't switch it off, there
is still a live micro in there.

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2000\10\31@071402 by J.Feldhaar

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Jinx schrieb:

{Quote hidden}

Hello Joe,

this feature is already in use in GSM mobile phones. When I drove through a
"county" (about 15*15 km) in Germany, I later found a text message telling
me how many cultural activities there would have been for me in that county,
had I taken the time to stop. So location-dependent advertising and
contacting is really possible today, GSM can locate you to a 500
meter-circle, and next year they will have augmented the system to an
uncertainty radius of 50 meters. All of this entirely without GPS, by the
way....

Best Greetings

Jochen Feldhaar

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2000\10\31@072651 by Jinx

face picon face
> Dan Michaels wrote :

> But surely only in america. Right, Shirley?

If only.

It's enough to get you worried. ("I guess I picked the wrong week
to stop sniffing glue")

You explain, Dan

Seriously, it's one of those pieces of legislation that's bad enough
in itself, but then you find there's previous legislation it ties in with.
For example, if you happen to be traced to a particular place that
maybe you shouldn't be (perhaps harmlessly and otherwise not
noticed), would that give law enforcement probable cause to take
more interest in you ? Maybe a crime took place in that area - could
you expect to be hauled in as a suspect ? Government departments
thrive on increasing their budgets, staff and powers. Machiavelli is
alive and well

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2000\10\31@073303 by Jinx

face picon face
> this feature is already in use in GSM mobile phones

'triffic  :-(((

> When I drove through a "county" (about 15*15 km) in Germany,
> I later found a text message telling me how many cultural activities
> there would have been for me in that county, had I taken the time
> to stop. So location-dependent advertising and

Am I being mean to advertisers and their mouths-to-feed or is this
just spam ? At least trees don't die for it like junk mail I guess

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2000\10\31@081317 by staff

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Have you noticed the price of decent power 2metre handheld
transcievers has come right down?? Looking in my catalogue here I
see an assortment of 6m, 2m, 70cm band handhelds for about $200 US
to $350 US. 5 watts of power. Good quality Yaesu brand.
Hmmm, no phone bill ever again. Can talk as long as you want.
Nobody keeping track of your location, or who you called.
And I only ever call a couple of friends anyway.
Starting to sound like mobile phones are for the stupid peasants
and I need to examine better solutions to my communication
needs... (Just a bit of fun, but maybe a grain of truth in there)
-Roman




Jinx wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2000\10\31@091836 by Mark Skeels

picon face
Interesting.

Now, I have been struggling with this whole idea of globalism and big
brother recently.

For 43 years I went along blindly minding my own business and now I read
things like this cell phone location thing.

I used to really poo-poo these "conspiracy theorists" even the name evokes
disdain, but now I am wondering if I should start taking them seriously. It
is interesting that others on this list, intelligent people, and not
mindless idiots, would take note of it. Perhaps I am not the only one
concerned? I would be greatly interested in your opinions. Off list, if
desired.

Mark

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2000\10\31@094107 by Werner Soekoe

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Yes, yes...

This is a serious problem. Why do you think did they drop selective
availability? SA on GPS's was there to make location readings inaccurate, so
that the USA's enemies couldn't use it against them. Now they dropped it,
because their enemies have found ways around it. Secondly, if you have a car
with a GPS Navigation System that gives your position feedback, they can
find you within 5 meters!!!

The USA and other countries are 10 to 1 trying to protect themselves against
"the outside", but I think they should stop fussing with law obiding
citizens and start worrying about their own government conspiracies. Like
who killed JFK? Conspiracy? I don't know. But I'm almost certain that it
wasn't a civilian.

So maybe I'm starting to wander of the topic, but I am glad I live in South
Africa. Here, techlology is lacking so far behind, that it will take at
least 5-10 years before they even start thinking about personal tracking via
mobile electronic devices. I mean, when Intel launches a new processor, it
takes me 3 moths before I can get my hands on it. And new PICs like the
16F627, I'll only be able to find next year or so.

Life sucks in SA, but at least we still have our freedom of movement.

Werner Soekoe
spam_OUTWernerSTakeThisOuTspamfsl.gov.za


{Original Message removed}

2000\10\31@095358 by dre Domingos F. Souza

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>So maybe I'm starting to wander of the topic, but I am glad I live in South
>Africa. Here, techlology is lacking so far behind, that it will take at
>least 5-10 years before they even start thinking about personal tracking via
>mobile electronic devices. I mean, when Intel launches a new processor, it
>takes me 3 moths before I can get my hands on it. And new PICs like the
>16F627, I'll only be able to find next year or so.
>Life sucks in SA, but at least we still have our freedom of movement.

       Sux? Or Rox? You are lacking behind, but you can use this to earn money! You can bring technology to your country and get rich. Think about it.


--------------8<-------Corte aqui-------8<--------------

       All the best!!!
       Alexandre Souza
       .....xandinhoKILLspamspam@spam@interlink.com.br

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2000\10\31@101426 by J.Feldhaar

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Werner Soekoe schrieb:

> Yes, yes...
>
> This is a serious problem. Why do you think did they drop selective
> availability? SA on GPS's was there to make location readings inaccurate, so
> that the USA's enemies couldn't use it against them. Now they dropped it,
> because their enemies have found ways around it. Secondly, if you have a car
> with a GPS Navigation System that gives your position feedback, they can
> find you within 5 meters!!!
>

Hello Werner,

to tell you all the truth about this GSM position thing, the cellphone provider
uses this feature regularly to be able to get maps about the RF propagation and
the user preferences. They also monitor how many times a call in a specific
location will break down, and so forth. So originally this was a maintenance
measure, but it can also be used in another way. It doesn't pay to be overly
concerned....IMHO.
I learned this when I was applying for a job with the German cellphone provider
D2 (now spelled VODAFONE...), in their infrastructure department. No Secret
Service guys there....

Greeting Jochen Feldhaar


{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2000\10\31@112606 by Mark Walsh

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> Interesting.
>
> Now, I have been struggling with this whole idea of globalism and big
> brother recently.
>
> For 43 years I went along blindly minding my own business and now I read
> things like this cell phone location thing.
>
> I used to really poo-poo these "conspiracy theorists" even the name evokes
> disdain, but now I am wondering if I should start taking them
> seriously. It
> is interesting that others on this list, intelligent people, and not
> mindless idiots, would take note of it. Perhaps I am not the only one
> concerned? I would be greatly interested in your opinions. Off list, if
> desired.
>
> Mark
>

Several years ago I noticed spikes in the targeted junk mail I was receiving
after certain credit card purchases.  I have since quit using them except
when I travel.  (If you try to buy an airline ticket with cash, you may
match part of the drug courier profile and will find some goon following you
around in the airport.)  I never give my name and address on any purchase
that isn't delivered.  I work hard all day and feel no need to carry my work
around with me in a PDA or cell phone when I leave in the evening.  I
suspect most of the data collected is harmless and used for inane, if
annoying, purposes.  But there is no guarantee and I can see no good reason
to help someone swell the database that defines my profile whether it's
harmless or not.

This week in Denver, the district attorney's office issued a subpoena for
the sales records at a local bookstore.  If I had used a credit card to buy
my copy of "The Dummies Guide to Thermo-nuclear Terrorism" or "The Pervert's
Guide to Leather and Lace", who knows what they might have done with the
information.

Whether I'm a terrorist, a pervert, or just another gray face in the crowd
is my business.  And I intend to keep it that way.

Mark

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2000\10\31@114852 by Simon Nield

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> It
>is interesting that others on this list, intelligent people, and not
>mindless idiots, would take note of it.

mindless idiots lack the imagination to be paranoid.

Regards,
Simon

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2000\10\31@115931 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>is interesting that others on this list, intelligent people, and not
>mindless idiots, would take note of it.

>mindless idiots lack the imagination to be paranoid.

Or have nothing to be worried about as noone will be interested in them anyway.

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2000\10\31@115939 by Mark Skeels

picon face
> mindless idiots lack the imagination to be paranoid.
>
> Regards,
> Simon
>
You know, I shouldn't have used those words. Fear of criticism leads to
denigration of people who question the status quo.

Mark

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2000\10\31@121006 by Bill Westfield

face picon face
> Life sucks in SA, but at least we still have our freedom of movement.

We're not talking about "freedom of movement."  We're talking about "privacy
of movement."  Places were movement is actually restricted tend to have much
lower-tech means to that end.  People with guns.  Or rocks and clubs.  The
current mid-east situation comes to mind :-(

I went through some of the thought process when our local grocery store
replaced coupons with one of those magnetic stripe cards (so in theory
at least they know every item I *personally* have purchased...)  On the
one hand, there goes my anonyminity.  On the other hand, it was technology
that provided that anonyminity in the first place - go to pre-tech small
town existance, and SOMEBODY will notice when the pregnant Mrs Adam's
husband suddenly buys a dozen condoms...

:-)
BillW

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2000\10\31@124123 by Dan Michaels

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Jochen Feldhaar wrote:
........
>
>this feature is already in use in GSM mobile phones. When I drove through a
>"county" (about 15*15 km) in Germany, I later found a text message telling
>me how many cultural activities there would have been for me in that county,
>had I taken the time to stop. So location-dependent advertising and
>contacting is really possible today,


Sorry for my cellular ignorance, but do you have to pay to
"receive" those advertisements? [if yes, then very bad, if no,
then worse still]

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2000\10\31@131236 by Bond Peter S-petbond1

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> to tell you all the truth about this GSM position thing, the
> cellphone provider
> uses this feature regularly to be able to get maps about the
> RF propagation and
> the user preferences. They also monitor how many times a call
> in a specific
> location will break down, and so forth. So originally this
> was a maintenance
> measure, but it can also be used in another way. It doesn't
> pay to be overly
> concerned....IMHO.

Depending on the manufacturer of the equipment.

The GPS signal is generally rather more useful as a timing synch for the
network.  As far as position of the basestation goes, a cheap and cheerful
handheld is adequate - the base stations are (hopefully?) not terribly
mobile, so the location tends not to change all that much.

There is also a technique of triangulating a (GSM) mobile handset that has
been harped on about in various publications - the idea being that you can
get directions to the nearest pub/restaurant/station through a quick call to
a provider.

A number of people seem unaware that whilst a mobile is turned on, it is
intermittently transmitting to the basestation so the network is aware which
cell the equipment is in.  Tie this up with the previous paragraph, add one
suspicious and cynical mind and you have a recipe for instant paranoia <G>

HTH

Peter

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2000\10\31@134011 by Nigel Goodwin

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In message <003901c04345$56ada980$8d5dfea9@markslaptop>, Mark Skeels
<.....meskeelsKILLspamspam.....EARTHLINK.NET> writes
>I used to really poo-poo these "conspiracy theorists" even the name evokes
>disdain, but now I am wondering if I should start taking them seriously. It
>is interesting that others on this list, intelligent people, and not
>mindless idiots, would take note of it. Perhaps I am not the only one
>concerned? I would be greatly interested in your opinions. Off list, if
>desired.

I can't say it really bothers me, by the vary nature of cell phones your
location is already known with reasonable accuracy. Personally I don't
do anything that is likely to attract the attention of the authorities,
and if I was going to I wouldn't use my own mobile phone!.

Of more concern (for us in the UK) is the recent legislation, which I
believe has now being passed, which makes it a criminal offence not to
provide the authorities with the password to an encrypted E-mail. If
someone on this list sent me an encrypted E-mail, and for some reason
this person was being watched by the authorities, I am legally obliged
to provide the password. If I don't, I can be jailed until I do so, even
if I have no idea what the password is, and have never heard of the
person sending the E-mail. The same legislation allows the authorities
to read all electronic mail, without a court order, and all ISP's are
required to have extra systems in place to allow this!.
--

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2000\10\31@143539 by Russell McMahon

picon face
>this feature is already in use in GSM mobile phones. When I drove through a
>"county" (about 15*15 km) in Germany, I later found a text message telling
>me how many cultural activities there would have been for me in that
county,
>had I taken the time to stop. So location-dependent advertising and
>contacting is really possible today, GSM can locate you to a 500
>meter-circle, and next year they will have augmented the system to an
>uncertainty radius of 50 meters. All of this entirely without GPS, by the
>way....



While I am aware of people using GSM for position location I am surprised
that it is possible.
My GSM phone displays the name of the cellsite it is working through and
even while stationary in my kitchen the phone will transfer to and fro
between the local site some 400 m away and several others up to some 10 km
away.

While driving the site used changes continually and quite often and the
effects of topography can be clearly seen. Driving into a valley will often
force a more distant cell site with line of sight along the valley.


RM

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2000\10\31@145425 by Mark Willis

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Bond Peter S-petbond1 wrote:
> > to tell you all the truth about this GSM position thing, the
> > cellphone provider
> > uses this feature regularly to be able to get maps about the
> > RF propagation and
> > the user preferences. They also monitor how many times a call
> > in a specific
> > location will break down, and so forth. So originally this
> > was a maintenance
> > measure, but it can also be used in another way. It doesn't
> > pay to be overly
> > concerned....IMHO.
>
> Depending on the manufacturer of the equipment.

At least some cell co's drive a van around with multiple cell phones
wired up, making calls, monitoring cell call quality, and so on, so they
know what quality service they're providing - Good sign IMO <G>

> The GPS signal is generally rather more useful as a timing synch for the
> network.  As far as position of the basestation goes, a cheap and cheerful
> handheld is adequate - the base stations are (hopefully?) not terribly
> mobile, so the location tends not to change all that much.

Many cell sites I've seen are set up in trailers, self-sustained and
fairly portable, so a GPS signal is a good idea;  In a disaster, any
site can be unplugged and moved to where it has to be, a temp. antenna
raised, and they're online to provide EMS people with cell service, in a
hurry.  They usually keep spare trailers around, quite logically, in
case of fire or other disaster etc., a wise idea.  (Not all, mind you,
but 60% or so of those I've seen.  Then they also can RENT a storage
location instead of having to BUY it - then sell that location and buy
another later etc. - It probably makes even better sense from inside the
company, of course.)

> There is also a technique of triangulating a (GSM) mobile handset that has
> been harped on about in various publications - the idea being that you can
> get directions to the nearest pub/restaurant/station through a quick call to
> a provider.

Worked on such a project for (then called) US West Cellular for a time
<G>

> A number of people seem unaware that whilst a mobile is turned on, it is
> intermittently transmitting to the basestation so the network is aware which
> cell the equipment is in.  Tie this up with the previous paragraph, add one
> suspicious and cynical mind and you have a recipe for instant paranoia <G>

I'm sure there are people who carry their cell phone with the battery
removed, for that reason.

They're also interested in determining location for those 911 calls
where the EMS people want to know where someone is, and they don't /
cannot say;  Someone kidnapped and stuck in a trunk, for example, could
call on a cell phone and not KNOW where they were at.  The tighter
search zone, the faster results, on searches!  (Probably poor call
quality, but in that circumstance, take what you can get.)

> HTH
>
> Peter

 Mark

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2000\10\31@151859 by David VanHorn

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>
>At least some cell co's drive a van around with multiple cell phones
>wired up, making calls, monitoring cell call quality, and so on, so they
>know what quality service they're providing - Good sign IMO <G>

Making sure they degrade analog service enough to force people to switch to
digital.


>They're also interested in determining location for those 911 calls
>where the EMS people want to know where someone is, and they don't /
>cannot say;  Someone kidnapped and stuck in a trunk, for example, could
>call on a cell phone and not KNOW where they were at.  The tighter
>search zone, the faster results, on searches!  (Probably poor call
>quality, but in that circumstance, take what you can get.)

GPS dosen't work in a trunk.
Nor even indoors.

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2000\10\31@152313 by Don Hyde

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If we're all lucky, the standard will be GPS for the mobile phone tracking.
There seems to be no hope of dissuading Big Brother from putting it in the
field (and making us pay for it), so the best we can hope for is that they
will settle for a somewhat user-controllable solution.

Right now, there is a technical debate between a system that uses the time
delays between arrival of the signal at different cell towers, and having a
GPS receiver in each mobile phone.  All the GPS suppliers are salivating
over the prospect of every cell phone user being forced to buy one of their
receivers.  The prospect has also opened their R&D money spigots.  We just
got preproduction samples of a GPS receiver that's just over 1" square, and
that's expected to be "well under $50 in production quantities."  It's
pretty cool, and I want them for several of my own projects -- it just
bothers me knowing why it exists.

The time-of-flight system is technically more difficult to achieve,
especially in urban canyons, where cell phone signals do things like
diffracting around the edges of buildings that make for weird multipath
conditions.  GPS is pretty difficult, too, but it has been solved by a
number of vendors.  Its weakness is that a GPS receiver needs a pretty good
view of the sky.  If you've ever used one, it doesn't work indoors, and
doesn't even work very well in forested areas.  If you don't want it to
work, all it takes is a little bit of aluminum foil over the antenna.

So, if we're lucky, the more-easily-circumvented one will prevail.  But
don't get your hopes up very much, there's already a lot of location
information just in knowing which cell you're in.  Cells are pretty small,
especially in urban areas, so just knowing what cell you're in tells them
within a few blocks where you are.  That works even with the oldest analog
cellphone technology.

For criminal purposes, it is simplest to steal a cell phone and only use it
for a few days.  If you select a tourist, kill them and hide the body, it
will probably remain useful for a little longer.

> {Original Message removed}

2000\10\31@161941 by dre Domingos F. Souza

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>Making sure they degrade analog service enough to force people to switch to
>digital.

       Here in brazil is the opposite - Digital service is SO BAD I'll never switch to digital :o)




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       All the best!!!
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2000\10\31@184056 by Russell McMahon

picon face
>So maybe I'm starting to wander of the topic, but I am glad I live in South
>Africa. Here, techlology is lacking so far behind, that it will take at
>least 5-10 years before they even start thinking about personal tracking
via
>mobile electronic devices. I mean, when Intel launches a new processor, it
>takes me 3 moths before I can get my hands on it. And new PICs like the
>16F627, I'll only be able to find next year or so.
>
>Life sucks in SA, but at least we still have our freedom of movement.
>
>Werner Soekoe
>@spam@WernerSKILLspamspamfsl.gov.za


Have I got news for you ! :-)
Tjaart van der Walt who was a one-time -me PICList guru makes a living in SA
AFAIK developing and selling (amongst other things) equipment to locate
vehicles. Extension to personal location would be relatively trivial.


Russell McMahon

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2000\10\31@221124 by Jinx

face picon face
> * My father bought land, then a built a house, slowly and surely with
> the EXCESS income from his wage and scrimping and saving. We
> didn't have the latest trendy shoes, but as an old man my dad had a
> nice house and no debts. The banks have benefitted little from his
> working wage and the benefits have gone to my dad.
>
> * Now people buy houses pre-made. The value adding/wealth goes
> to the building firm (usually a big building firm

Last night there was a 10min TV piece on a sizeable NZ outfit called
Hire A Hubby, who are professional oddjobbers. Their first year they
got 9000 callouts, then 20000, maybe 40000 next year. It seems people
(ie men particularly) don't get stuck in like they used to. As for building
your own home, part of the reason seems to be the amount of red
tape. A professional builder explained that for example there could
be four types of gib board (drywalling ?) to be used in a house and if
you want the guarantee to stand up they have to be installed properly.
Similarly for the floor, the insulation, the roof, the framing etc etc. He
said that building your own is now so fraught with difficulties and
minutiae that people just say the hell with it and pay for it to be done
for them. As for kids, unfortunately handyman tools aren't as sexy as
surfing the web or Playstation and there's a whole generation who
just aren't interested in making things, they'd rather get it out of a box

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2000\10\31@225946 by staff

flavicon
face
Bond Peter S-petbond1 wrote:
> add one
> suspicious and cynical mind and you have a recipe for instant paranoia <G>

Ha ha! I like it. When I catch myself getting paranoid I ask the
question;
"What is the opposite of paranoia??"
I think the best answer I have found is "gullibility" or even
"stupidity"
:o)
-Roman

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2000\10\31@231023 by staff

flavicon
face
Nigel Goodwin wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Now let me see... are the peasants getting more power, or being
further enslaved? You got a British passport Nigel? Go and live
in the Bahamas or something. ;o)
-Roman

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2000\10\31@232111 by staff

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Jinx wrote:
{Quote hidden}

So when the "red tape" takes away your ability to "do it yourself"
who benefits? Again the long term benefits flow uphill to the banks.
So *who* would be in favour or more red tape, ie less rights/power
for the peasants?
"Please sir, may I have some more?"
-Roman

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'[OT]:Hmmmmm'
2000\11\01@002905 by Dan Michaels
flavicon
face
Roman Black wrote:
>Bond Peter S-petbond1 wrote:
>> add one
>> suspicious and cynical mind and you have a recipe for instant paranoia <G>
>
>Ha ha! I like it. When I catch myself getting paranoid I ask the
>question;
>"What is the opposite of paranoia??"
>I think the best answer I have found is "gullibility" or even
>"stupidity"
>:o)

Strictly speaking, yes - but from a practical viewpoint, the
viable word is "conformance". There are 3 major means to
accomplish this:

- force [medieval and dictatorial societies]
- economics [modern "free" societies]
- brain washing [examples too numerous to cite]

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2000\11\01@022637 by staff

flavicon
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Dan Michaels wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Even better still! So our society is a good example of
"Economic force by brain washing" - I think you summed it
up perfectly, ha ha! ;o)
-Roman

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2000\11\01@024541 by Jinx

face picon face
> So when the "red tape" takes away your ability to "do it yourself"
> who benefits? Again the long term benefits flow uphill to the banks.
> So *who* would be in favour or more red tape, ie less rights/power
> for the peasants?
> "Please sir, may I have some more?"
> -Roman

Red tape obviously doesn't take away your physical ability to do
something, but I wonder if, even in this so-called information age,
whether people are any better at comprehending or coping with
the amount of paperwork, regulations, codes of practice, consents,
material choices, budgets and so on than their forebears. One
other reason for Do-it-for-me given in the news story yesterday
was that people seem anxious to grab all the leisure time they can
and so haven't also time to do their own handiwork. I don't do a 9-5
and can't comment on the stresses of that. Is more stressful these
days or do people only think it is and react accordingly, ie is it
self-fulfilling behaviour ?

These might be two small examples, but they're symptomatic of the
"What ?" 's you come across every day

I was trying to explain to a friend how to tune a channel on her
VCR. This is a VCR that her flat has owned for 3 years and the
time is and probably always will be 12:00 (flash) 12:00 ...........
Apart from playing rentals they never use it, yet they complain
that they miss programs on other channels. After patiently going
through it with them for almost 15 minutes they then tried to do
a channel themselves and failed miserably. Just couldn't grasp
what was written in front of them, and they aren't unintelligent at
all. Almost unbelievably, what they said, just about in chorus, was
"can't do this, too stressed out". It was like they had no attention
span at all, not unusual it seems these days

I was asked by a neighbour to erect a pergola last year. No big job
and it was all set to go ahead. IIRC the materials came out somewhere
under $300. Then the council stepped in. Needs the plans looked at.
Over 2m tall - needs a building permit. Needs Resource Management
Consent. Needs the plans looked at again. Needs the house plans
looked at. Needs consent from the other neighbour. Needs inspecting.
etc etc etc etc. The cost of all these bits of paper, some of which
were reasonable asks, was over $800. Forget it they said, and it
never got built. Being honest folk they wouldn't put one up illegally (I
would have). Apart from the obvious, building it soundly so it doesn't
fall over and clobber some poor barbecuer, what the hell threat
does a pergola pose ?

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2000\11\01@032915 by D Lloyd

flavicon
face
part 1 1892 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi,

Of course no one lives in a free society; the West's proud democracies are
far from "free", as has been discussed, already. It was interesting to see
this comment:

- force [medieval and dictatorial societies]

....just following the note about legislation change in the UK where the
authorities can put you in jail until you decide to decrypt a message for
them. God help you if you ever simply forget the private key.....then
again, I'm sure you would be serving far less time than necessary in the
end, just like if you and your friend killed someone's child. We all know
what that one is about.

Gotta go and count my Groats...
Dan




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Subject:  Re: [OT]:Hmmmmm

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Roman Black wrote:
>Bond Peter S-petbond1 wrote:
>> add one
>> suspicious and cynical mind and you have a recipe for instant paranoia
<G>
>
>Ha ha! I like it. When I catch myself getting paranoid I ask the
>question;
>"What is the opposite of paranoia??"
>I think the best answer I have found is "gullibility" or even
>"stupidity"
>:o)

Strictly speaking, yes - but from a practical viewpoint, the
viable word is "conformance". There are 3 major means to
accomplish this:

- force [medieval and dictatorial societies]
- economics [modern "free" societies]
- brain washing [examples too numerous to cite]

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2000\11\01@051258 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Its weakness is that a GPS receiver needs a pretty good
>view of the sky.  If you've ever used one, it doesn't work indoors, and
>doesn't even work very well in forested areas.  If you don't want it to
>work, all it takes is a little bit of aluminum foil over the antenna.

Some company in the UK is looking at fitting GPS receivers into cars, and it
will know the speed limit of the road you are on. You will then not be able to
travel over the speed limit if they have their way. A demonstration vehicle has
been shown on TV. At the time I figured the Duct Tape over the Antenna was the
way to go, but then maybe the car will not!!!

Another problem with GPS is if you are in a deep valley, so you can only see a
couple of satellites which are orbiting in line with the valley, you can get
very inaccurate position readings.

The other GPS "solution" that has been postulated is for companies to know where
their "on the road" personnel are at all times, so they can send the nearest
person to a service call. Time for the Duct tape again...

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2000\11\01@074133 by Andrew Kunz

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Maybe the Luddites are right!

Andy









Jinx <RemoveMEjoecolquittKILLspamspamCLEAR.NET.NZ> on 10/31/2000 04:09:12 AM

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Subject: Re: [OT]:Hmmmmm








> Wow. I don't like the sound of that much. I didn't vote for that law.
> Hope it's only in the US, although all that means is a couple of years
> respite until they get us too.

The headlines are scary enough, the whole story is worse. It used
to be curfews and radio station commandeering

As an innocent citizen, of course, you know you have nothing to fear.
Until someone tries to make you guilty of something

More ammo ('scuse pun) for the New Militias and anti-federalists. UK
GCHQ already has overt powers to monitor content, who-knows-who
has covert or unpublicised powers. So now they can know where you
are, who you talk to, and what you say. And on top of that you'll get
spammed on the way to the cells

Anyone else remember peace of mind and peace and quiet ?

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2000\11\01@094825 by Scott Stephens
picon face
>Jinx wrote:

>For example, if you happen to be traced to a particular place that
>maybe you shouldn't be (perhaps harmlessly and otherwise not
>noticed), would that give law enforcement probable cause to take
>more interest in you ? Maybe a crime took place in that area - could
>you expect to be hauled in as a suspect ?

The NY subway uses smart cards, and police have already requested and
received electronic records of the time riders have used the subway. Most
people think "I'm not guilty I have nothing to fear". But the fault of that
logic just became more real to me yesterday. The Libertarian Party
(http://www.lp.org) wrote me and requested donation for a lawsuit to fight for
unlimited anonymous campaign contributions.

Now I thought John McCain had the right idea, that both parties are addicted
to greed and beholden to corporations rather than citizens, so contributions
should be limited and contributors disclosed. But then I realized, that by
having rich corporate interests bribing BOTH parties, any contributions to a
third party (especially one that would reduce influence and power of
corporations and government) would summon the wrath of the IRS and regulator
agencies and require big lawyer and legal expenses (more indirect taxation).
With anonymous contributions, certain rich and shut-out companies may decide
to anonymously contribute to alternatives, without fear of retaliation, to
end the bribery and corruption. Then when enough dumb Americans saw enough
TV commercials, they might not give in to the fear the less evil party says
we should feel about the more evil party.

'Dirty Harry' has learned to ignore inconvenient formalities such as court
orders; but rather bug a phone, bust a car tail-light and use a traffic stop
to exploit illegal information and confiscate drug assets for fun and
profit. We'll see if you've been attending that church that causes problems
for the politically powerful women's advocacy group, or you go to an
environmental group, or an anti WTO meeting, or the union meeting, or the
incumbent's opposition, well you get the idea. Anyone remember Cointelpro?
Hillery's FBI files?

I could rant for pages and hours about how information from IRS, FBI,
banking, credit, medical records have been used to intimidate and oppress,
but I'm sure we all get the idea. To bad the police, politicians and
bureaucrats don't, because they think they can handle the power, being the
angelic creatures they are. Or they're so selfish they just want to abuse
the system today and get their loot, and not worry about the tyranny it will
lock future generations into, until the system reset.

Scott

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2000\11\01@100205 by Scott Stephens

picon face
>Wow. I don't like the sound of that much. I didn't vote for that law.


Your representatives did. Democrat and Republican alike (with few exceptions
such as Ron Paul) favor concentration of power. You'd think the after Hoover
and Reno's use of FBI files they would realize their folly. We engineers
don't dare design systems without taking into account component SOA's,
tolerances and system stability. But politicians and parties naively trust
in their own good intentions and integrity, creating an unstable police
state that a Hilter, Stalin or Orwell couldn't dream of.

Sortware crashes require system resets. When you put a chip in SCR latchup,
you need to remove power. What happens to a nation when you have corrupt
officials, or worse, a corrupt system?

>Roman Black wrote:
>Suits the "powers that be" to keep all the peasants well tagged,
>all actions monitored and in debt/servitude for life. Problem is I
>don't see myself as one of those peasants. Do you?


Certainly a potential difference of perceptions and self image will result
in reactive forces and flux of some kind, sooner or later.

>But, I would like to pose a question, who here would vote for
>*compulsory* location reporting from all mobile phones?
>
>I vote NAY.


Certainly its a feature with legitimate uses but one that should be capable
of being disabled by the user. We need somebody to tell us how to 'hack'
this feature. If it really bothers you, you might see if you can find the
cell phones of your local commisars, and tip the press (Larry Flint, et.) so
they can be followed. Giving the pigs a good dose of their own slop might
bring them around to reason.

Another consoling thought is that those that depend on technology become
dependant on it, leaving them vulnerable to those who control it 8^)
What did Star Trek's "Scotty" say? "The more elaborate the plumbing, the
more ways to plug up the drains".

Scott

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2000\11\01@100844 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>What happens to a nation when you have corrupt
>officials, or worse, a corrupt system?

I do not want to incense any Australians on the list, but at one stage sections
of the police force there were known as the best police money could buy, such
was the corruption. That was several years ago, I believe they have managed to
sort a lot of it out now.

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2000\11\01@101659 by Don Hyde

flavicon
face
Hmmmmm.  Boy, I sure can see some nice money-making opportunities tapping
into the personal-location-tracking data stream.  I bet I could get good
money supplying the location of certain individuals to, say, Paparrazi,
gossip columnists, political rivals, or maybe terrorists?

OTOH, a well-publicized example where a wealthy and powerful individual was
put at risk of embarrassment or even injury might kill the idea outright...

> {Original Message removed}

2000\11\01@103843 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>OTOH, a well-publicized example where a wealthy and powerful individual was
>put at risk of embarrassment or even injury might kill the idea outright...

Just try selling a CDROM version of a telephone directory and watch the outcry.

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2000\11\01@125112 by Bruce Cannon

picon face
Have you seen the new NEAR magazine, a trade journal for the "location
industry"?  Interesting study asking teen cell-phone users whether they
liked knowing where their friend was more than they hated their parents
knowing where they were.

Bruce Cannon
Style Management Systems
http://siliconcrucible.com
(510) 787-6870
1228 Ceres ST Crockett CA 94525

Remember: electronics is changing your world...for good!

> Hmmmmm.  Boy, I sure can see some nice money-making opportunities tapping
> into the personal-location-tracking data stream.  I bet I could get good
> money supplying the location of certain individuals to, say, Paparrazi,
> gossip columnists, political rivals, or maybe terrorists?
>
> OTOH, a well-publicized example where a wealthy and powerful
> individual was
> put at risk of embarrassment or even injury might kill the idea
> outright...

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2000\11\01@135611 by David VanHorn

flavicon
face
>
>The other GPS "solution" that has been postulated is for companies to know
>where
>their "on the road" personnel are at all times, so they can send the nearest
>person to a service call. Time for the Duct tape again...

There's two sides to that..
We looked at doing exactly that here, for ambulance service.
Often, there's a unit in the area which is returning from a call that could
make the call, rather than send another unit.  However, the union that the
EMS people work under won't have it.  They insist that unit A must return
to the dispatch point before being sent on another call, even if it means
that people die

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2000\11\01@185624 by Nigel Goodwin

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face
In message <079001c04419$8b5d42b0$.....5dbdf682spamRemoveMEssdwkiwi.AG.rl.ac.uk>, Alan
B. Pearce <RemoveMEA.B.PearcespamspamBeGoneRL.AC.UK> writes
>>OTOH, a well-publicized example where a wealthy and powerful individual was
>>put at risk of embarrassment or even injury might kill the idea outright...
>
>Just try selling a CDROM version of a telephone directory and watch the outcry.

That's just in the UK, unlike many other countries, British Telecom have
copyright on the phone book. The American ones were sent out to China
and manually typed in and the results sold on CD-ROM.
--

Nigel.

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2000\11\01@191559 by Chris Carr

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I have watched this string and the temptation to throw in some
reality has finally overcome prudance. (I am so close to an Echelon
Station that I am restricted on my Amateur Radio Activities, but then
like the rest of the population I believe what politicians tell me so this
is untrue and I am paranoid)

> If we're all lucky, the standard will be GPS for the mobile phone
tracking.
> There seems to be no hope of dissuading Big Brother from putting it in the
> field (and making us pay for it), so the best we can hope for is that they
> will settle for a somewhat user-controllable solution.
>
Sorry, that has already been thought of

> Right now, there is a technical debate between a system that uses the time
> delays between arrival of the signal at different cell towers, and having
a
> GPS receiver in each mobile phone.  All the GPS suppliers are salivating
> over the prospect of every cell phone user being forced to buy one of
their
> receivers.  The prospect has also opened their R&D money spigots.  We just
> got preproduction samples of a GPS receiver that's just over 1" square,
and
> that's expected to be "well under $50 in production quantities."  It's
> pretty cool, and I want them for several of my own projects -- it just
> bothers me knowing why it exists.
>
Err, there is no technical debate, both techniques have their strengths and
weaknesses and therefore will be incorporated (eventually when technology
allows (it can be now but the beancounters insist it doesn't make sense))

> The time-of-flight system is technically more difficult to achieve,
> especially in urban canyons, where cell phone signals do things like
> diffracting around the edges of buildings that make for weird multipath
> conditions.  GPS is pretty difficult, too, but it has been solved by a
> number of vendors.  Its weakness is that a GPS receiver needs a pretty
good
{Quote hidden}

it
> for a few days.  If you select a tourist, kill them and hide the body, it
> will probably remain useful for a little longer.
>
Why bother, just get a pre-paid fone then ditch it.

> > {Original Message removed}

2000\11\02@020754 by Dr. Imre Bartfai

flavicon
face
Hi,
I would not be so sure in your place. Live sucks also in here in Hungary,
but I am sure if one of politicians would be informed about the
possibility of personal tracking and IF he would be understand it
(normally, this is not the case, bcus they only talks about the importance
of religion and the greatness of our - their - heroes), he would
immediately order/prescribe it - of course, for fighting against organized
criminality. The New Law against Crime would contain exceptions like
politicians, their family members etc. The poverty of the country does not
count.

Orwell let greet himself.

Regards,
Imre

On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Werner Soekoe wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2000\11\02@030844 by staff

flavicon
face
Alan B. Pearce wrote:
>
> >OTOH, a well-publicized example where a wealthy and powerful individual was
> >put at risk of embarrassment or even injury might kill the idea outright...
>
> Just try selling a CDROM version of a telephone directory and watch the outcry.


Huh? UK must be like a police state or something. I have bought a number
of good cdrom phone books, great for sending a direct mail to every
business
in a set area, or finding out who lives at number 27 up the street, or
finding the name/address of 555 1234 that keeps breathing heavy on your
phone.
And, yes, I make sure my number is unlisted. :o)
-Roman

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2000\11\02@042434 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>That's just in the UK, unlike many other countries, British Telecom have
>copyright on the phone book. The American ones were sent out to China
>and manually typed in and the results sold on CD-ROM.

The outcry I remember was not from BT, but the public in general who were
worried about marketing people doing demographic searches on the information
that was on the CD. In retrospect it may have been more than just a phone book
on CD.

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2000\11\02@151009 by Nigel Goodwin

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In message <018201c044ae$7ba17130$EraseME5dbdf682spam@spam@ssdwkiwi.AG.rl.ac.uk>, Alan
B. Pearce <@spam@A.B.Pearcespam_OUTspam.....RL.AC.UK> writes
>>That's just in the UK, unlike many other countries, British Telecom have
>>copyright on the phone book. The American ones were sent out to China
>>and manually typed in and the results sold on CD-ROM.
>
>The outcry I remember was not from BT, but the public in general who were
>worried about marketing people doing demographic searches on the information
>that was on the CD. In retrospect it may have been more than just a phone book
>on CD.

I thought it was BT, and the CD-ROM was just the UK phone book, you can
still buy a CD-ROM that includes more than the phone book, the details
were obtained elsewhere than the BT directories - voting lists, mailing
lists etc.

Basically BT want you to buy THEIR! CD-ROM, not someone else's!.
--

Nigel.

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2000\11\03@032346 by McMeikan, Andrew

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is any offlist discussion is happening.

> concerned? I would be greatly interested in your opinions. Off list, if
> desired.


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2000\11\03@050759 by Bond Peter S-petbond1

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> The outcry I remember was not from BT, but the public in
> general who were
> worried about marketing people doing demographic searches on
> the information
> that was on the CD. In retrospect it may have been more than
> just a phone book
> on CD.

I do remember BT selling the phone book, which was unable to perform reverse
lookups.  The outcry that I recall was from BT when people hacked the format
so they could...

Peter

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2000\11\03@051704 by staff

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Bond Peter S-petbond1 wrote:
>
> > The outcry I remember was not from BT, but the public in
> > general who were
> > worried about marketing people doing demographic searches on
> > the information
> > that was on the CD. In retrospect it may have been more than
> > just a phone book
> > on CD.
>
> I do remember BT selling the phone book, which was unable to perform reverse
> lookups.  The outcry that I recall was from BT when people hacked the format
> so they could...
>
> Peter

"reverse lookup"?? I assume you mean the ability to search/order
the data based on any field? I wouldn't purchase any database product
that didn't offer at least that level of functionality.
I'm British by birth, but still seems to me the British have
a very "stuffy" attitude towards many aspects of freedom. Shame
for such an intelligent country?
-Roman

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2000\11\03@062756 by John Lawton Electronics

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Roman wrote:

>I'm British by birth, but still seems to me the British have
>a very "stuffy" attitude towards many aspects of freedom. Shame
>for such an intelligent country?

Freedom?
I value the the "freedom" from junk mail, and especially unsolicited
telephone calls.
I would rather that commercial organizations were not able to look up my
address from my telephone number.  I suppose that sadly the cat is well out
of the bag on that now.

John

-----------------------------------------------
John Lawton Electronics
Custom Electronics Design & Development
RemoveMEdesign@spam@spamspamBeGonejle.co.uk   http://www.jle.co.uk
-----------------------------------------------

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2000\11\03@090332 by staff

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John Lawton Electronics wrote:
>
> Roman wrote:
>
> >I'm British by birth, but still seems to me the British have
> >a very "stuffy" attitude towards many aspects of freedom. Shame
> >for such an intelligent country?
>
> Freedom?
> I value the the "freedom" from junk mail, and especially unsolicited
> telephone calls.
> I would rather that commercial organizations were not able to look up my
> address from my telephone number.  I suppose that sadly the cat is well out
> of the bag on that now.
>
> John


Oops! I offer my apology re any offense I may have caused.
I meant that the "phone book CD" products I have bought have been
very useful both for business marketing and personal security.
They were promoted as functional database products here in
Australia, with all the advantages of a database product that
can search/order on any field.

When Peter from UK used the term "reverse" lookups I found it
curious that this seemed to be some sort of buzzword representing
a "bad thing" and I instantly assumed that this had to be a
cultural thing like people in UK have been trained that "reverse"
phone book is a bad thing. To me the products I have bought and
used were simply phone book database products that have a number
of uses. No more "criminal" than a carving knife although obviously
both may be used by criminals.

I had never really heard the term "reverse" phone book or thought
why it might be "bad". :o)

For example, I recently organised a mail out to Australian shops
for our motorcycle related pic product. Yes, its "junk mail" but
tests have shown me that the majority of shops are interested and
happy to hear about this product. I don't consider sending them
a brochure because they are a motorcycle shop to be a bad thing.
I used the "reverse" CD sorted by industry category to select
these shops.

Also, owning a shop myself, I have experienced people ringing
often and then just hanging up. We have caller ID here in
Australia so I had the persons phone number. Being able to look
up who that person was enhanced my privacy and security. For the
record caller ID is user selectable, so you can turn yours off
if you like.

I really didn't mean to insult British people with the "stuffy"
comment, simply commenting on the attitude that what i thought
to be a useful and friendly product, the would be seen by another
person/culture as a threat. Also for the record I don't think I
have ever received an unsolicited phone call at my home. Another
difference between countries i guess!! :o)
-Roman

PS. John, if you have an unlisted number (which is free) you
are not in the phone book and obviously not on the CD. Is the
UK different in this regard?

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2000\11\03@105847 by John Lawton Electronics

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At 14:04 03/11/00, Roman wrote:
>Oops! I offer my apology re any offense I may have caused.

None taken - don't worry!

>...I instantly assumed that this had to be a cultural thing like people in
>UK have been trained that "reverse" phone book is a bad thing.

My business gets many phone calls and mailings, which are fine in the
commercial field.  As a householder I feel differently about being
identified from my phone book records. I seem to recall that BT's attitude
reflected their subscribers wishes for privacy in that they might not wish
to be found by "reverse lookup".

>Also, owning a shop myself, I have experienced people ringing
>often and then just hanging up. We have caller ID here in
>Australia so I had the persons phone number. Being able to look
>up who that person was enhanced my privacy and security. For the
>record caller ID is user selectable, so you can turn yours off
>if you like.

It's the same here in the UK.

>I really didn't mean to insult British people with the "stuffy"
>comment, simply commenting on the attitude that what i thought
>to be a useful and friendly product, the would be seen by another
>person/culture as a threat.

But if you started to get unwanted calls, then you might see the reverse
lookup facility  as not so desirable!

>Also for the record I don't think I have ever received an unsolicited
>phone call at my home. Another difference between countries i guess!! :o)

You wait, you will...!

>PS. John, if you have an unlisted number (which is free) you
>are not in the phone book and obviously not on the CD. Is the
>UK different in this regard?

No.  But then my friends wouldn't be able to find my number :-)

Regards,

John
-----------------------------------------------
John Lawton Electronics
Custom Electronics Design & Development
.....design@spam@spamEraseMEjle.co.uk   http://www.jle.co.uk
-----------------------------------------------

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2000\11\03@112005 by Arthur Brown

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Nice Thing about being on cable
is that as well as caller id we also have withheld numberblocking.
so if the caller is a doubleglazing salesman we don't get the call.

Regards Art

{Original Message removed}

2000\11\08@035028 by George Tyler

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Us mindless idiots are not stupid! We know that paranioa on it's own does
not solve
anything!

----- Original Message -----
From: Alan B. Pearce <.....A.B.PearceRemoveMEspamRL.AC.UK>
To: <.....PICLISTSTOPspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]:Hmmmmm


> >is interesting that others on this list, intelligent people, and not
> >mindless idiots, would take note of it.
>
> >mindless idiots lack the imagination to be paranoid.
>
> Or have nothing to be worried about as noone will be interested in them
anyway.
>
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>
>
>

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2000\11\08@035040 by George Tyler

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----- Original Message ----- From: Alexandre Domingos F. Souza <xandinhoEraseMEspam@spam@INTERLINK.COM.BR>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]:Hmmmmm


>So maybe I'm starting to wander of the topic, but I am glad I live in South
>Africa. Here, techlology is lacking so far behind, that it will take at
>least 5-10 years before they even start thinking about personal tracking via
>mobile electronic devices. I mean, when Intel launches a new processor, it
>takes me 3 moths before I can get my hands on it. And new PICs like the
>16F627, I'll only be able to find next year or so.
>Life sucks in SA, but at least we still have our freedom of movement.
.
       Sux? Or Rox? You are lacking behind, but you can use this to earn money! You can bring technology to your country and get rich. Think about it.
One thing we do not lack here is S.A. is our behinds. Where else would we keep our brains! seriously, I thing we actually do well for the resorces in the country. There is an Afrikaans saying:
   'n boer maak a plan  (a farmer improvises), and this attitude has filters down to all so that  we have become a nation of entraponeers. It would be interesting to know the ratio of South Africans using this discussion list to the total population, I suspect it would show that a higher percentage of people are doing  development in S. A. that many other countries. consider the Microchip "keeloq" products, Baygen wind-up radios etc, even barbed wire was invented here. We have a profusion of 2 or 3 man businesses doing development work. If we need a spring, we nip up the road to the spring shop and say " hey Jim, make me a spring like so-and-so, i'll pick it up this afternoon.
   We need to develop the industry here, but people do not have money to pay, it would be great
to be able to get work from people overseas as with our exchange rate we could do it profitably.
Prices, once translated into dollars, would be dirt cheep.


George Tyler
Tyler electronics,
Durban

--------------8<-------Corte aqui-------8<--------------

       All the best!!!
       Alexandre Souza
       spamBeGonexandinhoKILLspamspam@spam@interlink.com.br

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