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PICList Thread
'[OT]:Great Opportunity'
2001\02\13@233250 by David Huisman

flavicon
face
Hi all,

I notice there is a huge pool of talented people that participate in this
group. I would like to tap into these resources with a view for a win
situation for both Orbit Communications and those interested in being part
of this exciting venture.

In line with the culture of our business (community and team work), I would
like to offer an opportunity to anyone that is interested in being involved
with product development ...

We will pay a royalty on products sold that are either your design or use
part of your design. The % will be dependant on how much of the complete
product is your design.

Please look at http://www.orbitcoms.com  for an idea of the type of products
we are producing.

In addition to the RF modules, we would like to produce a larger range of rf
module controller boards (current versions are PIC based) - new hardware and
firmware, software utilities and development tools , as well as complete
applications using the existing products.

In addition to receiving a royalty from sales, you will become part of a an
egroup of resources that we will refer third party developments to. How this
will work is that third parties who require development in certain areas
will supply us with details of the work to be undertaken. We will then send
a copy of the spec to all people on the list. Those interested can then
reply to the third party with details of relevant specialty and references.

If you are interested, please email spam_OUTofferTakeThisOuTspamorbitcoms.com

Regards

David Huisman

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2001\02\13@234957 by Jim Paul

picon face
David,

With your blessing, I'd like to be included in the list of 3rd party
developers.
This does sound like an interesting and exciting opportunity.  Thanks for
the
chance.


Regards,


Jim
{Original Message removed}

2001\02\14@003925 by David Huisman

flavicon
face
Hi Jim,

Could you please respond by email to .....offerKILLspamspam@spam@orbitcoms.com

Thanks

Regards

David Huisman

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2001\02\14@130608 by Dan Michaels

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>I notice there is a huge pool of talented people that participate in this
>group. I would like to tap into these resources with a view for a win
>situation for both Orbit Communications and those interested in being part
>of this exciting venture.


David,

I was just looking at the signup form for the "discussion group
on Wireless, Analog and Digital electronic topics" on your site.
Looks interesting, and I am sure it would be of interest to
other piclisters besides myself -

BUT don't you think the questions asked on the form are a little
too "personal" just to join a discussion group?

- danM

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2001\02\14@195028 by David Huisman

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Dan,

Thank for your comments regarding the Electronics discussion group joining
form at http://www.orbitcoms.com

The list uses LISTBOT as the server for the group. The questions posed are
the standard form supplied by LISTBOT and as far as I can understand at
present, cannot be modified.

If you take a look at the marks next to the boxes, you should see that only
a few fields are actually required to join the group. I have tried to mark
fields as REQUIRED only if they were not too personal.

Any information given on this form is STRICTLY confidential and will not be
passed on to any other party. I would suggest only entering details that are
required or you feel comfortable with.

It would be great if there was a way to not show all those other fields at
all, I have no personal interest in marital status etc of users.

I find that their name and general location (city/country), age and net
experience is helpful information.

This helps me understand how I need to phrase my answers etc to best suit
the user.

If I know that the person I am chatting with is inexperienced on the net
etc, then I will try and make my answer simpler and avoid jargon etc.

If anyone else here interested in joining the Wireless,Analog and Digital
electronics discussion feels that the REQUIRED information on the join form
is too invasive, please let me know and I can the fields that are
problematic.

Thanks again for the feedback.

Best regards

David Huisman

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2001\02\14@205621 by Dan Michaels

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face
At 11:40 AM 2/15/01 +1100, you wrote:
>Dan,
>
>Thank for your comments regarding the Electronics discussion group joining
>form at http://www.orbitcoms.com
>
>The list uses LISTBOT as the server for the group. The questions posed are
>the standard form supplied by LISTBOT and as far as I can understand at
>present, cannot be modified.
>
>If you take a look at the marks next to the boxes, you should see that only
>a few fields are actually required to join the group. I have tried to mark
>fields as REQUIRED only if they were not too personal.
>


Hi David, I'm not sure how others feel about it, but my general feeling
is that american society is already "greatly" too invasive, and soon as
I see something like your form, my first inclination is to simply exit
right. Adios muchacho.

Whether some fields are or are not "required" doesn't really matter to
me in this case. When there is a line for "income" [not required] and
another for age [*=required], etc, as shown below, the ole RED FLAG just
goes right up the pole --> who are these people and why do they need
to know this stuff anyways?

Mr/Ms:
*First Name:
*Last Name:
Address:
*City:
State or Province:
ZIP or Postal Code:
*Country:
Phone
* Age:
Gender:
*Occupation:
Income:
*Company Name:
*Organization Type:
*Company Size:
Web Site Type:
Primary Net Connection:
Home Ownership:
Internet Experience:
Education:
Marital Status:
Children in Household:


Company size [required], home ownership, children in household
- [give me a friggin break].

Maybe I'm just being an overly sensitive american - but personally I'd
get rid of the damn thing completely. It also doesn't help that ListBot
comes from Micro$oft, this sounds like something they would create for
a lawyer or insurance company.

I would be interested to know if I am the only person around these
parts to feel this way  ???????????????????????
=================


>Any information given on this form is STRICTLY confidential and will not be
>passed on to any other party. I would suggest only entering details that are
>required or you feel comfortable with.
>

Also, on the internet circa 2001, these kinds of guarantees probably
won't assuage many people's anxieties re privacy.
===================


>It would be great if there was a way to not show all those other fields at
>all, I have no personal interest in marital status etc of users.
>

If I did keep this thing, I would make essentially EVERY field, beyond name
and email address, "optional".
=============


>I find that their name and general location (city/country), age and net
>experience is helpful information.
>
>This helps me understand how I need to phrase my answers etc to best suit
>the user.
>
>If I know that the person I am chatting with is inexperienced on the net
>etc, then I will try and make my answer simpler and avoid jargon etc.
>

Regarding this, you can usually tell what most people know [and also
whether or not they have any semblance of a sense of humor] just as
soon as they open their mouths :(0).
===================


{Quote hidden}

I'd like to hear some other opinions about this sort of thing too.

regards,
- dan michaels
http://www.oricomtech.com
==================

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2001\02\14@214933 by mmucker

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face
Folks,

Can this thread please be taken private?  There appears to be nothing new in
this thread of interest to the group.

-Matt

> {Original Message removed}

2001\02\15@005250 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
That's why it's labelled [OT]: Matthew.

Personally, I would like to hear some other people's input
regarding use of such forms on websites, before it takes the
deep 6. Otherwise, it's just 2 opinions. Maybe some of us with
websites can learn something useful.




At 08:49 PM 2/14/01 -0600, you wrote:
>Folks,
>
>Can this thread please be taken private?  There appears to be nothing new in
>this thread of interest to the group.
>
>-Matt
>
>> {Original Message removed}

2001\02\15@012312 by Anthony Bussan

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face
Even our dear piclist.com has that membership form (for the archive, not the
mailing list) that asks for more information than I care to give.  That's
why I haven't signed up yet.  From what I can tell these both are services
of a third party, of whom I have no way to know if they will abuse me or my
personal information.

Tony




{Original Message removed}

2001\02\15@022233 by Bill Westfield

face picon face
>> Whether some fields are or are not "required" doesn't really matter to
>> me in this case. When there is a line for "income" [not required] and
>> another for age [*=required], etc, as shown below, the ole RED FLAG just
>> goes right up the pole --> who are these people and why do they need
>> to know this stuff anyways?

They are people who want to sell advertising space, either on their website,
or in their messages, or in messages you post (which I personally find
really annoying.)  People who might advertise want to know the demographics
of the users of the service, so they can properly target their ads (which
THEY pay for.)  The questions you're answering are VERY standard for
consumer-oriented things.

It's the same "scam" as all those free engineering magazines - advertisers
pay the costs so you don't have to, and in return they get to know that
there ad ends up in front of xxx thousand engineers who have some say in
purchasing the parts that they're advertising.  (Engineering magazines have
slightly different standard questions than consumer services, of course.)

You have to decide for yourself whether the value you receive from the
service is worth the value you provide to the advertisers.  The privacy
issues are PROBABLY not serious, but you have to trust the provider on that;
for all you know they could be matching ip addresses to income levels to
figure out where to concentrate cracking attempts...

BillW

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2001\02\15@034125 by Roman Black

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Dan Michaels wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I'm with you Dan. I hate that information gathering
crud. Just tattoo a number on all our forearms I think
and give all the numbers to Microsoft and the tax
department.

Statistically forums/mailing lists have a very low
success rate unless joining is totally non-invasive.
Invasive membership forms activate my browser's
"back" button. :o)
-Roman

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2001\02\15@060605 by uter van ooijen & floortje hanneman

picon face
> If I did keep this thing, I would make essentially EVERY field, beyond
name
> and email address, "optional".

And a plea from non-US/CAN : State should always be optional or left out or
grayed out once you have said that you do not live in a country that is
divided in states!

For those who do not want to give away information: just fill in some random
junk.....

PS I did not find this particular request form too intrusive, especially
because the optional fields were marked as such (which is much better than
having to go back to the form 10 times..).

Wouter

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2001\02\15@061800 by Russell McMahon

picon face
> Even our dear piclist.com has that membership form (for the archive, not
the
> mailing list) that asks for more information than I care to give.  That's
> why I haven't signed up yet.  From what I can tell these both are services
> of a third party, of whom I have no way to know if they will abuse me or
my
> personal information.


Why not put eg zzz into irrelevant but essential fields?


RM

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2001\02\15@110341 by David P. Harris

picon face
Hi-
Canada doesn't have states either, we have provinces :-)
David

wouter van ooijen & floortje hanneman wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2001\02\15@114119 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
Roman Black wrote:
........
>> Maybe I'm just being an overly sensitive american - but personally I'd
>> get rid of the damn thing completely. It also doesn't help that ListBot
>> comes from Micro$oft, this sounds like something they would create for
>> a lawyer or insurance company.
>>
>> I would be interested to know if I am the only person around these
>> parts to feel this way  ???????????????????????
>
>
>I'm with you Dan. I hate that information gathering
>crud. Just tattoo a number on all our forearms I think
>and give all the numbers to Microsoft and the tax
>department.
>

Yeah, "Would #'s 22223331118 thru 22223331199 please report
to the West-end Soylent Green Gate". [course, "they" would
never go that far].
===============


>Statistically forums/mailing lists have a very low
>success rate unless joining is totally non-invasive.
>Invasive membership forms activate my browser's
>"back" button. :o)

My first inclination also, Roman. I got as far as the form
in joining David's analog discussion group, then "plop" into
the circular barrel.

I hope these and the responses from several others who in joined
in help to answer both David's and [especially] Matthew's
considerations.

I think anyone short of the IRS and your bank should be very
leary of using these forms [and I'm not too sure about those
guys either].

best regards,
- dan michaels
http://www.oricomtech.com
===================

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2001\02\15@115333 by Simon Nield

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rm:
>Why not put eg zzz into irrelevant but essential fields?

my favourite is to use the contact details of the webmaster and tick all the "please send me spam"
boxes.
it's not so much the invasion of privacy that annoys be, but being forced to waste my time for
someone else's convenience.

Regards,
Simon

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2001\02\15@120550 by Mitch Miller

picon face
And ... don't forget the two territories! <g>

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of David P. Harris
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 10:07 AM
To: RemoveMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [OT]:Great Opportunity


Hi-
Canada doesn't have states either, we have provinces :-)
David

wouter van ooijen & floortje hanneman wrote:

> > If I did keep this thing, I would make essentially EVERY field, beyond
> name
> > and email address, "optional".
>
> And a plea from non-US/CAN : State should always be optional or left out
or
> grayed out once you have said that you do not live in a country that is
> divided in states!
>
> For those who do not want to give away information: just fill in some
random
{Quote hidden}

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2001\02\15@122013 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 11:06 AM 2/15/01 -0600, you wrote:
>And ... don't forget the two territories! <g>

Three, IIRC. Don't forget Nunavut!

Best regards,
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
speffSTOPspamspamspam_OUTinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at: http://www.bluecollarlinux.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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2001\02\15@133634 by James Newton

face picon face
The piclist.com archive membership form is NOT a service of a third party.
That data goes from your machine, over the internet (unsecured until
somebody wants to donate a secure certificate for the server) to the server
and gets saved in a database. It doesn't get accessed or reported on any web
page (except the members "home page" as indicated on the form and that is
minimal and optional). Its for my use only. I wrote the form and I feel that
it is important to know what I ask for in order to protect the rights of the
piclist members.

Your going to ask "why?" so here it is.

The archive will have email addresses in it. I've done what I could to trap
and lockout addresses mining bots but what one man does, another can undo. I
can see from the log files (which I review regularly and have programs that
look for and warn me of access patterns that are probably mining) when a
particular IP address is mining the archive, but with only that information,
I have to have full cooperation from the ISP who controls that IP address to
take any action. With the membership form, I have at least an email address
that I know is valid, and probably a good telephone number and address. If
the phone number and address don't pass verification, that account is
watched more closely. So YOUR email address and other information is more
protected because the access to it is better followed.

So why the years experience, productive hours, etc...? because it helps me
to know if the person who I'm dealing with is a newbie, new to the list or a
crusty old steely eyed rocket man. You can always lie about that, but if you
are crusty and you list your self as a newbie, expect to get an email like
"Now I know you are new at this, and I don't mind teaching people, but you
really must understand that...." rather than "Hey, man, I know you must have
done this before, could I ask you to..."

Also, it helps when somebody tries 5 times to subscribe with a dud email
address and I can call them on the phone and say "hey, your ISP is bouncing
that email address, are you sure you have it right?" as a few of you know I
have done.

I would never ask age or income or race or sex or anything like that. I
agree that those parameters are an invasion of personal information.

I'm open to discussion of the issue.

James Newton, PICList Admin #3
KILLspamjamesnewtonspamBeGonespampiclist.com
1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Bussan <EraseMETBUSSAspamEraseMEWOODWARD.COM>
To: <@spam@PICLIST@spam@spamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 22:22
Subject: Re: [OT]:Great Opportunity


Even our dear piclist.com has that membership form (for the archive, not the
mailing list) that asks for more information than I care to give.  That's
why I haven't signed up yet.  From what I can tell these both are services
of a third party, of whom I have no way to know if they will abuse me or my
personal information.

Tony




{Original Message removed}

2001\02\15@150844 by Djurre de Jong

flavicon
face
come one people, there are so many free services on the internet. Why can't you just look at banner some times? The people who make the sites must also eat!
Great,
Djurre

{Quote hidden}

Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping!
http://www.shopping.altavista.com

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2001\02\15@151713 by James Newton

face picon face
I also hate the time loss, so I wrote in some JavaScript that attempts to
look up the contact information (name, address, etc..) from an online phone
number lookup database (anywho.com) and insert it into the form for you if
it is correct.

If there was some other way to make it easier, I would have included it as
well.

James Newton, PICList Admin #3
TakeThisOuTjamesnewton.....spamTakeThisOuTpiclist.com
1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com

{Original Message removed}

2001\02\15@170031 by David Huisman

flavicon
face
The subscription form has now been modified at http://www.orbitcoms.com

I found that the unwanted fields were removable and have removed them. Most
of the remaining fields are now optional.

I am committed to promoting a sense of community and team work and therefore
do not want people to feel let out because of unnecessary details on a
subscription form.

You may now like to take another look and subscribe to this group.

Thanks for the feedback, and helping us to perfect our business system and
better understand how people feel about these issues.

Best regards

David Huisman
Orbit Communications

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2001\02\15@205709 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
David Huisman wrote:
>The subscription form has now been modified at http://www.orbitcoms.com
>
>I found that the unwanted fields were removable and have removed them. Most
>of the remaining fields are now optional.
>

David, I think you made a good choice here.

Despite whatever questionnaire may be present on techref [which IIRC,
I entered age=3 and development_time=24hr/day], I firmly believe that
piclist has the perfect enrollment procedure: SUBSRIBE PICLIST.

best regards,
- dan michaels
http://www.oricomtech.com
==================

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2001\02\15@212412 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
> And ... don't forget the two territories! <g>

What about Nunavit?

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

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2001\02\15@214953 by James Newton

face picon face
The techref (or piclist archive) membership application form does NOT ask
for age. It asks how many years you have been working with computers and how
involved you are. The idea is that when one of the members posts something
onto the site or accesses the archive in a way that looks like its being
mined, I can respond in a way that is appropriate to the persons level of
experience.

Bogus answers get you service that doesn't match your actual experience.

Also notice that the only thing the application form really requires is the
email address. Just like the PICList.

P.S. add it to the t-shirt <GRIN>

James Newton, PICList Admin #3
spamBeGonejamesnewton@spam@spamspam_OUTpiclist.com
1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com


{Original Message removed}

2001\02\15@221123 by severson

flavicon
face
> Despite whatever questionnaire may be present on techref [which IIRC,
> I entered age=3 and development_time=24hr/day], I firmly believe that
> piclist has the perfect enrollment procedure: SUBSRIBE PICLIST.

SUBSRIBE?

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2001\02\15@233504 by Mitch Miller

picon face
That must be new since I went to school!

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[PICLISTEraseMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Bob Ammerman
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 8:23 PM
To: RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [OT]:Great Opportunity


> And ... don't forget the two territories! <g>

What about Nunavit?

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

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2001\02\16@042331 by Nick Taylor

picon face
Hi Mitch ... here in the hills of California we have access to
newspapers that keep us posted on what's happening.  ;-)

 -Nick

Mitch Miller wrote:
>
> That must be new since I went to school!
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\02\16@081908 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
----- Original Message -----
From: Mitch Miller <@spam@mdmiller2spam_OUTspam.....HOME.COM>
To: <spamBeGonePICLISTEraseMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 11:35 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]:Great Opportunity


> That must be new since I went to school!
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\02\19@114645 by uter van ooijen & floortje hanneman

picon face
> piclist has the perfect enrollment procedure: SUBSRIBE PICLIST.
sorry, if my memory serves me right it is SUBSCRIBBLE PUKELIST
Wouter

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