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'[OT]:GOTO'
2000\09\12@161024 by M. Adam Davis

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Dan Michaels wrote:
>
> Harold M Hallikainen wrote:
> >        Though use of a macro or an include file would allow this multiple
> >insertion of the code without the insertions diverging. The problem of
> >two copies of code and not knowing which is right is like the person with
> >two watches never knows what time it is, but the person with one watch
> >does. On the watch problem... If we average all the times on all the
> >clocks in a time zone, do we end up with the correct time, or is an error
> >introduced because my wife always sets some of the clocks (I never know
> >which ones) 5 to 10 minutes ahead?
> >
>
> That's why they invented the median.

So those strips of vegitation between parallel inverse lanes of road actually
help keep correct time?

-Adam

So /that's/ what that big red button does...

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2000\09\12@162858 by Dan Michaels

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Adam Davis wrote:
>> >        Though use of a macro or an include file would allow this multiple
>> >insertion of the code without the insertions diverging. The problem of
>> >two copies of code and not knowing which is right is like the person with
>> >two watches never knows what time it is, but the person with one watch
>> >does. On the watch problem... If we average all the times on all the
>> >clocks in a time zone, do we end up with the correct time, or is an error
>> >introduced because my wife always sets some of the clocks (I never know
>> >which ones) 5 to 10 minutes ahead?
>> >
>>
>> That's why they invented the median.
>
>So those strips of vegitation between parallel inverse lanes of road actually
>help keep correct time?
>


Close, but not quite. The median is meant to help reject "outliers",
either those people who set their watches 10 minutes ahead, those
who cross over the centerline while talking on their cell phones,
[and/or the just plain rich].

I remember years ago driving in Rochester, where the median was the
center lane of a 3-lane high-speed highway. Traffic in both directions
could use it as a passing lane. It was great fun to roar into the median
lane, pass 10 or 12 cars at 60+ mph, and then try to find a hole back
into the slow lane before the guy passing from the opposite direction
at 65 mph got to the same spot. You can imagine how many outliers this
thing rejected.

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2000\09\12@163939 by Lance Allen

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On 12 Sep 2000, at 16:09, M. Adam Davis wrote:


> > >
> >
> > That's why they invented the median.
>
> So those strips of vegitation between parallel inverse lanes of road actually
> help keep correct time?
>
> -Adam

No... silly

The strip of vegetation is the 'average' of the parallel inverse lanes of
road.

(I might not be too smart but I can lift heavy things!)
- Lance

He who laughs last... thinks the slowest
_____________________________

Lance Allen
Technical Officer
Uni of Auckland
Psych Dept
New Zealand

http://www.psych.auckland.ac.nz

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2000\09\12@170112 by James Paul

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 All,

 What's the big deal with GOTO?  After all GOTO, GOSUB, CALL, etc.,
 are all just different ways of accomplishing the same ultimate goal.
 And that is to change the current flow of the program based on the
 value of some register, variable, test, etc.  I couldn't care less
 which one of those methods I use, provided it gives me the results
 and stability I want and need.  And I know someone (or someones?)
 will argue up and down that they are NOT the same, but in essence
 they are.  They all accomplish the same end goal.

 The argument about it being easier or more proper to maintain a
 program using one over the other is ludicrous at best.  Why is it
 easier to use a CALL for instance than a GOTO?  Or a GOSUB in place
 of a CALL?  This seems rather dumb to me.  Most of the programs I
 have written, regardless of language, I get to maintain.  No problem
 there right?  But if I had to give that responsibility to someone
 else, they could do the same thing I do with very little trouble,
 and the GOTO's GOSUB's, CALL's, etc wouldn't be the cause of any
 of that trouble.  So, consequently, what is the argument?

 Now whether it is or isn't good programming practice to use one
 over the other I believe is determined by the current FAD.  Yes FAD.
 Someone out there has to say that this is the way it should be done,
 and that method stays in effect until someone else comes along and
 says, "No No, that's not the way it should be done at all.  It
 should be done this way.  Now a different philosophy is in effect.
 So, it all boils down to politics in the end.   And since it isn't
 a good idea to discuss politics here, this is where I will end it.

                                               Regards Y'all

                                                    Jim







On Tue, 12 September 2000, Lance Allen wrote:

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2000\09\13@070551 by Andy Howard

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Nice trawl Jim...  :>



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Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]:GOTO


{Quote hidden}

actually
> > > help keep correct time?
> > >
> > > -Adam
> >
> > No... silly
> >
> > The strip of vegetation is the 'average' of the parallel inverse lanes
of
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2000\09\13@085604 by Jamie Dainton

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Hello Andy,

Wednesday, September 13, 2000, 12:00:20, you wrote:

>>   The argument about it being easier or more proper to maintain a
>>   program using one over the other is ludicrous at best.  Why is it
>>   easier to use a CALL for instance than a GOTO?  Or a GOSUB in place
>>   of a CALL?  This seems rather dumb to me.  Most of the programs I
>>   have written, regardless of language, I get to maintain.  No problem
>>   there right?

Because when a called sub or function gets to the end or return
statement it returns to the line after it was called. This can *not*
be guaranteed with GOTOs. Also how big are these programs. Most of us
programmers find it hard enough to go back to a 10000 line, well coded
and commented procedural program after a few months of not looking at
it. The other point is a professional programmer should always write
code as if they're going to be graded on it or someone else will have
to maintain the software. Then there is the team programming where
more that one programmer will be working on the project. How does your
sloppy, spaghetti logic code fit in then? When using small processors
such as pics with a shallow stack GOTOs are acceptable. In proper
systems they should never be used at all. VB programmers among you
will think of VBs terrible error handling. On Error Goto Errohandler.
Well done M$, perfect bit of thought.


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Wednesday, September 13, 2000 13:42:21
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2000\09\13@180032 by James Paul

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Jamie,

I'm not Andy, but I am the author.  Your points are well taken, but
due to the fact that this is a PICLIST and not an IBM CLONE LIST, I
naturally assumed we were talking about PIC programs.  Most of the
programs I have written are less than a hunderd lines or so.  And
I wouldn't call it spaghetti code at all.  They are rather logical
and coherent, and most importantly, they do the job they were
designed to do.  And they are stable and well behaved.  As far as
maintaining them, the changes are minimal.  But the point is that
if I need to divert from the mainline, it makes little difference
what method I use to get there and back, as long as I get there and
back correctly.

In a program for an IBM CLONE or other such machine, by all means
the choice of detour from the mainline is important, and has to be
chosen carefully to maintain effeciency and continuity, especially
with tens of thousands of line of code to concern yourself with.
And in PIC programs, with the PIC's limited resources, this choice
is somewhat open.  Which proves my point that it makes little
difference which method you choose, as long as you get the results
that you are looking for, and the stability to maintain those
results.

About professional programmers.. I'm not one by trade or confession.
I do some PIC programming on a professional level as a coincidental
part of my employment, and I do some for relatives, and friends, and
for my own projects, but I don't do it as my main source of income
or my main occupation.  So, therefore, the ethics and code of good
programming conduct for professional programmers is mostly
unimportant to me.

So, bottom line from my point of view.....

1) We are talking about PIC's here, with limited resources.
   Especially Memory (Program Store and RAM)

2) With line #1 in mind, it seem easy for me to stay with my
   original assesment of there not being much difference which
   detour method is chosen to perform a given task, providing
   the method you choose can give you the results and stability
   you are looking for.

3) The points you make about professional programmers and programs
   of tens of thousands of line of code are well taken, and I agree
   with the importance you have placed with them.

4) I believe I do good work, and my superiors apparently think so
   too, (Some of which ARE professional programmers BTW),as they
   are often telling me so.  And I'm sure you, as a professional
   programmer, do a good job too in the code that you write.  It
   is important for the author of a given piece of code to be able
   to go away from it for a while, and at some later date, come
   back to it and understand what he (she) was trying to do when it
   was written.  But for PIC programs, there is less of a chance of
   the author of a piece of code not remembering what it was
   supposed to accomplish, and how it was supposed to accomplish
   it's job or function.   At least for me, this is the case.
   Of course, I do quite extensive documentation as I go.  And this
   in fact may be the reason that other people could pick up from
   where I left off and not have much trouble in maintaining the
   code I have written.  This and the fact that the code is
   typically one hundred lines or less.

   I don't mean to step on anyones toes with my rants and raves on
   this list, but I honestly don't understand some of the arguments
   that people here present to substantiate their point of view.
   And don't anyone think for a minute that I think I'm infallible.
   I'm probably high on the list of fallible (?) people.
   But, from my point of view, some of the arguments on this list
   are so petty, that I sometimes get irritated beyond belief.
   That's when I start ranting and raving.  And by all means, if
   you have what you believe are good justifications for what it is
   you say, , let me know.  I'd be more than happy to listen.
   Jamie did, and he makes good points with what he says.
   How else can we grow intellectually unless we have a dialog about
   some mutual subject from time to time?

   Anyway, thats my take on it.   I'm done again.


                                          Regards,

                                            Jim










So any arguments about professional
programming, directed to me, are basically wasted because by not
being a professional programmer, I



On Wed, 13 September 2000, Jamie Dainton wrote:

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