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'[OT]: why are Atmels so cheap vs. PICs'
2001\10\22@225001 by Peter Crowcroft

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In my kit business we are rapidly using general microcontrollers for alot
of kits.

Currently in Hong Kong the PIC16F84A-04/P cost me $US1.92 in lots of
several 100 while the Atmel AT89C2051-24PC costs me $US0.63 and
AT90S1200-12PC are $US1.26.

Consequently, in my current projects I am telling former PIC developers
that I want an Atmel uC. If they cannot do it, sorry.

Why are general PIC uC's so expensive?


regards,

Peter Crowcroft
           DIY Electronics (HK) Ltd
     PO Box 88458, Sham Shui Po, Hong Kong
Voice: 852-2720 0255,  6273 2049(m)   Fax: 852-2725 0610
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2001\10\22@230157 by Tony Nixon

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Peter Crowcroft wrote:
>
> In my kit business we are rapidly using general microcontrollers for alot
> of kits.
>
> Currently in Hong Kong the PIC16F84A-04/P cost me $US1.92 in lots of
> several 100 while the Atmel AT89C2051-24PC costs me $US0.63 and
> AT90S1200-12PC are $US1.26.
>
> Consequently, in my current projects I am telling former PIC developers
> that I want an Atmel uC. If they cannot do it, sorry.
>
> Why are general PIC uC's so expensive?

Try designing with the 16F627 in mind instead of the 16F84.

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2001\10\22@234837 by Brent Brown

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> > Currently in Hong Kong the PIC16F84A-04/P cost me $US1.92 in lots of
> > several 100 while the Atmel AT89C2051-24PC costs me $US0.63 and
> > AT90S1200-12PC are $US1.26.
> >
> > Consequently, in my current projects I am telling former PIC
> > developers that I want an Atmel uC. If they cannot do it, sorry.
> >
> > Why are general PIC uC's so expensive?
>
> Try designing with the 16F627 in mind instead of the 16F84.

I second that. I use the AT89C2051 and PIC16F84 in some projects
and I like them both, but the PIC16F627 blows them away for
hardware features, and as someone else pointed out recently, is
around half the cost of the F84.

Which raises another question: why are the PIC16F627 and
PIC16F628 so much cheaper than the PIC16F84 which they can
easily replace?

Brent Brown
Electronic Design Solutions
16 English Street
Hamilton, New Zealand
Ph/fax: +64 7 849 0069
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2001\10\22@235911 by Kathy Quinlan

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I would say that Microchip is manipulating the market, as I can not see
weather 1million or 1.5million being produced would alter cost to the
manufacturer.

Is it that the 16F628 had a shorted design cycle (because most of the work
was done on the F84?) than the 16F84 ?? I do not know.

My biggest gripe is why their is no medium level suppliers around, I can go
local and buy 1-25 at a reasonable price, but the price sucks for say 100 -
500, and microchip will not touch me with A a decent order, or B a Credit
Card, which as a pensioner I can not get as I do not make much money, and
most of the stuff I build is for personal use, or supplying kits for courses
I was running as a volunteer teacher to "kids at risk"

Regards,

Kat.
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{Original Message removed}

2001\10\23@010157 by David VanHorn

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>
>I second that. I use the AT89C2051 and PIC16F84 in some projects
>and I like them both, but the PIC16F627 blows them away for
>hardware features, and as someone else pointed out recently, is
>around half the cost of the F84.
>
>Which raises another question: why are the PIC16F627 and
>PIC16F628 so much cheaper than the PIC16F84 which they can
>easily replace?

Die shrink. Less silicon, more chips per wafer.

Have you looked into (literally) the AVR?  It's not the same as the 2051.

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2001\10\23@010219 by Ned Konz

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On Monday 22 October 2001 08:43 pm, Brent Brown wrote:

> Which raises another question: why are the PIC16F627 and
> PIC16F628 so much cheaper than the PIC16F84 which they can
> easily replace?

Progress:
Chip yield: better process control and smaller chips mean a higher percentage
of good chips per wafer
Wafer size: bigger wafers (300mm for many processes now) mean many more chips
per wafer (edges of wafers are lost)
Process geometry: smaller transistors mean smaller chips, which mean higher
probability of good devices, and more per wafer.
Faster processes: better tools and processes mean cheaper production in some
cases

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2001\10\23@020507 by Brent Brown

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Dave VanHorn wrote:
> Die shrink. Less silicon, more chips per wafer.
>
> Have you looked into (literally) the AVR?  It's not the same as the
> 2051.

Not literally as they are all Flash types and don't have windows. I
have looked into the data sheets etc, and yes they are way different
to the 2051. Very comparable to PIC's in terms of features, good
pricing too I beleive.

I did an in depth comparison between the PIC16F876/877 and the
AT90S8535/somethingorother for a project about 18 months ago.
They were very close but I chose the PIC because I didn't need to
shell out for new development tools. At the time my conclusions
were that the PIC has as little lower power consumption
(considering clock/instruction ratios) and that the PIC had a more
generous amount of Flash (8K words vs 4K words).

The feeling I got at that time, from comments from other people,
was that generally the AVR was more hungry at using it's code
space. I usually program in C. In practice I have now done quite a
few PIC projects using Hi-Tech C and I have been very happy with
way the amount of code that I can fit into a chip. Typically my PIC
projects have been around 2-3K words, so I can use a 4K or 8K
part, and to date the 8K parts have been easier to get with very little
price difference anyway.

Don't get me wrong, the AVR is a very capable chip. I will probably
use one someday, just a matter of having a good enough reason to
set myself up for another micro family with compiler, programmer
etc.

Back to the subject for a moment: the PIC16F84 has been around
for a while now (starting with the PIC16C84) and I think it has
acheived a good following due to it being Flash amongst a world of
mask or OTP parts, ideal for small users. The price probably
reflects it popularity in a supply vs demand marketplace.

Brent Brown
Electronic Design Solutions
16 English Street
Hamilton, New Zealand
Ph/fax: +64 7 849 0069
Mobile/text: 025 334 069
eMail:  spamBeGonebrent.brownspamBeGonespamclear.net.nz

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2001\10\23@021823 by David VanHorn

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>
>The feeling I got at that time, from comments from other people,
>was that generally the AVR was more hungry at using it's code
>space. I usually program in C. In practice I have now done quite a
>few PIC projects using Hi-Tech C and I have been very happy with
>way the amount of code that I can fit into a chip. Typically my PIC
>projects have been around 2-3K words, so I can use a 4K or 8K
>part, and to date the 8K parts have been easier to get with very little
>price difference anyway.


This may be what's holding the traffic.
I work in assembler, and find the PIC's internals unbearable.
In code where I am using a given pin for input and output, the bank
swapping is awful.
I cringe at each bank swap, thinking of the four AVR instructions that
would have gone there, all to do a port operation that is much more
complicated (the read-mod-write) than on the AVR.

I would expect that C should be more efficient on the AVR, as it seems well
designed for it, but I'm not a "C guy" yet. Too busy making a living in
assembler. :)


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2001\10\23@045628 by Bob Barr

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Kathy Quinlan wrote:
>
<snip>
>...or B a Credit
>Card, which as a pensioner I can not get as I do not make much money, and
>most of the stuff I build is for personal use, or supplying kits for
>courses
>I was running as a volunteer teacher to "kids at risk"
>

Rather than trying to get a credit card, you may want to inquire at your
bank regarding getting a Visa Check Card. If you already have an ATM card
for your account, it should be quite easy to get.

The card is actually a debit card that's linked to your checking account. It
can be used just as if it were any other credit card.

Since your checking account provides the funds directly, there shouldn't be
any specific income level required to qualify. (Of course, you can't
'charge' more than you have in your account any more than you could write a
check for that amount.)


Regards, Bob


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2001\10\23@065927 by Milan Pavlica (YU7AEC)

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part 0 44 bytes
his is a multi-part message in MIME format.
part 1 649 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=koi8-r (decoded 7bit)



Brent Brown wrote:

> Which raises another question: why are the PIC16F627 and
> PIC16F628 so much cheaper than the PIC16F84 which they can
> easily replace?

Maybe F84 will run out of production, and they want to keep them long on
market..

{Quote hidden}


part 2 201 bytes content-type:text/x-vcard; charset=koi8-r;
(decoded 7bit)

begin:vcard
n:Pavlica;Milan
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
org:SuperSonic Systems
adr:;;;;;;
version:2.1
email;internet:RemoveMEmpavlicaspam_OUTspamKILLspamptt.yu
title:Chief
fn:Milan Pavlica
end:vcard


part 3 105 bytes
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2001\10\23@071815 by Jean-Michel Howland

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>Kathy Quinlan wrote:
><snip>
>>...or B a Credit
>>Card, which as a pensioner I can not get as I do not make much money, and
>>most of the stuff I build is for personal use, or supplying kits for
>>courses
>>I was running as a volunteer teacher to "kids at risk"
>
>Rather than trying to get a credit card, you may want to inquire at your
>bank regarding getting a Visa Check Card. If you already have an ATM card
>for your account, it should be quite easy to get.
>
>The card is actually a debit card that's linked to your checking account. It
>can be used just as if it were any other credit card.
>
>Since your checking account provides the funds directly, there shouldn't be
>any specific income level required to qualify. (Of course, you can't
>'charge' more than you have in your account any more than you could write a
>check for that amount.)

LOL.  Unfortunately the good old banks here in Perth are not very friendly
at all to pensioners.  I'm on an in-valid pension and I had to be a little
sneaky to obtain my Visa card.  With my previous application I told the
truth and asked for a debit only Visa card but was rejected because of my
pensioner status. :(

Regards
Jean-Michel.

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2001\10\23@073524 by mike

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>I did an in depth comparison between the PIC16F876/877 and the
>AT90S8535/somethingorother for a project about 18 months ago.
>They were very close but I chose the PIC because I didn't need to
>shell out for new development tools. At the time my conclusions
>were that the PIC has as little lower power consumption
>(considering clock/instruction ratios) and that the PIC had a more
>generous amount of Flash (8K words vs 4K words).
With the Atmel parts, the power consumption comparison varies a LOT
depending on whether you run at 3 or 5V. Atmels really gobble power at
5V, but get more sensible at 3V.
A couple of things I would add :  that AVR is way better for
interrupt-intensive apps as it has seperate vectors for each source,
and you can reserve registers for use by int code for fast context
switching. PICs generally have beefier output drive, especially on the high side,
and the eeprom is more reliable - with Atmels you absolutely must use
good brownout protection, otherwise you can trash the eeprom at
powerdown even when not accessing it.

In many apps there's little to choose between them - I default to PICs
as they're what I'm used to.

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2001\10\23@083239 by Kathy Quinlan

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----- Original Message -----
From: "David VanHorn" <dvanhornSTOPspamspamspam_OUTCEDAR.NET>
> I would expect that C should be more efficient on the AVR, as it seems
well
> designed for it, but I'm not a "C guy" yet. Too busy making a living in
> assembler. :)


Dave, if you read the stuff from atmel (I know we assembler guys do not read
the junk on C as we never use it) they say the AVR was designed and
instructions were implemented or left out to make the AVR better under C, in
fact the AVR was designed for C :o)

Regards,

Kat.

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2001\10\23@083643 by Kathy Quinlan

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Hi Bob,

Are you in the USA ?

If you are in Au what bank offers them and I will switch, as the ANZ say
they have no debit card accounts :o( (I had one under Town and Country, but
it was axed when the ANZ took over from ANZ)

Regards,

Kat.

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{Original Message removed}

2001\10\23@083844 by David VanHorn

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At 08:34 PM 10/23/01 +0800, Kathy Quinlan wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "David VanHorn" <KILLspamdvanhornspamBeGonespamCEDAR.NET>
> > I would expect that C should be more efficient on the AVR, as it seems
>well
> > designed for it, but I'm not a "C guy" yet. Too busy making a living in
> > assembler. :)
>
>
>Dave, if you read the stuff from atmel (I know we assembler guys do not read
>the junk on C as we never use it) they say the AVR was designed and
>instructions were implemented or left out to make the AVR better under C, in
>fact the AVR was designed for C :o)

I know, but I can't really evaluate the truth of it, since I'm not a C guy.
What they say seems reasonable though.

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2001\10\23@084322 by Kathy Quinlan

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Hey Jean-Michel, where abouts in Perth are you ??  a few of us from David's
AVR list are talking of a get together soon :o)

I would love to meet all these ppl I talk to daily online :o)

I live in Kensington (a very short walk (by WA standards) to Worldwide
Electronics (My second home, just ask mike lol))

Regards,

Kat.
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2001\10\23@084544 by cdb

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Kath but have you tried the Heritage or Suncorp Metway? I'm in Qld so I
don't know if they have branches in WA, just thought Bendigo have (I think)
an online account which comes with a Visa debit card.

Colin

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2001\10\23@084751 by myke predko

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David Van Horn wrote:
>
> This may be what's holding the traffic.
> I work in assembler, and find the PIC's internals unbearable.
> In code where I am using a given pin for input and output, the bank
> swapping is awful.
> I cringe at each bank swap, thinking of the four AVR instructions that
> would have gone there, all to do a port operation that is much more
> complicated (the read-mod-write) than on the AVR.

I guess it's a difference in how we think, but I found the AVR to be
needlessly complicated in how it implements the 32 GPRs to be totally
non-logical.

The 1200 is even worse than a "full" AVR, like the 8515 or 8535 - I would
consider the 1200 to be more of a competitor to a PIC16C505 than a PIC16F84
(and the PIC16F62x is *much* better).

> I would expect that C should be more efficient on the AVR, as it seems
well
> designed for it, but I'm not a "C guy" yet. Too busy making a living in
> assembler. :)

I think this is where the AVR shines - although I think the PIC18C/Fxxx will
really have some impressive compilers written for it.


I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the reason why I won't consider using
them - when PC Flash was on allocation, Atmel stopped making
microcontrollers.  They were impossible to get for eighteen months - and a
number of companies were scrambling to find loose tubes of parts.

It doesn't matter how cheap parts are if the search results at Digi-Key says
that production has stopped and new parts are expected in nine months (which
is what you would have gotten this time last year when you searched for
AVRs).

I suspect that the pricing reflects an effort on Atmel's part to regain
market share and customers that were lost over the previous two years.

myke

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2001\10\23@090200 by David VanHorn

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At 08:48 AM 10/23/01 -0400, myke predko wrote:
>David Van Horn wrote:
> >
> > This may be what's holding the traffic.
> > I work in assembler, and find the PIC's internals unbearable.
> > In code where I am using a given pin for input and output, the bank
> > swapping is awful.
> > I cringe at each bank swap, thinking of the four AVR instructions that
> > would have gone there, all to do a port operation that is much more
> > complicated (the read-mod-write) than on the AVR.
>
>I guess it's a difference in how we think, but I found the AVR to be
>needlessly complicated in how it implements the 32 GPRs to be totally
>non-logical.

I don't get what you mean here.
I really dislike having to funnel everything through the W register.


You get three pointer pairs, a register for the LPM instruction, and the
rest are GP registers.
There are a few instructions that only work on the upper half, but that's
seldom an issue.


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2001\10\23@091923 by Douglas Wood

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The AVR's instruction set does things like zero-flag propagation, etc.
There's a white paper in the ATMEL web site that discusses these very
issues. (http://www.atmel.com)

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Software Engineer
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{Original Message removed}

2001\10\23@092812 by David VanHorn

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At 08:24 AM 10/23/01 -0500, Douglas Wood wrote:
>The AVR's instruction set does things like zero-flag propagation, etc.
>There's a white paper in the ATMEL web site that discusses these very
>issues. (http://www.atmel.com)

Is this a good thing? :)


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2001\10\23@095722 by Bob Barr

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Kathy Quinlan wrote:
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>Are you in the USA ?
>

Yes,I am. I'm afraid my parochial world-view is showing, isn't it? :=)


>If you are in Au what bank offers them and I will switch, as the ANZ say
>they have no debit card accounts :o( (I had one under Town and Country, but
>it was axed when the ANZ took over from ANZ)
>

Sorry to hear that. Debit cards are quite common over here. I had expected
that they'd be common elsewhere in the world as well.
Many banks (and other credit companies) here offer secured credit cards as
well. You make a cash deposit to secure the company's risk and they issue
you a card with a limit based on the amount of that deposit. Are those used
in Au or is that another US thing?


Regards, Bob


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2001\10\23@100439 by Kathy Quinlan

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Hi Bob,


> Sorry to hear that. Debit cards are quite common over here. I had expected
> that they'd be common elsewhere in the world as well.
> Many banks (and other credit companies) here offer secured credit cards as
> well. You make a cash deposit to secure the company's risk and they issue
> you a card with a limit based on the amount of that deposit. Are those
used
> in Au or is that another US thing?


 Are you kidding, most of the banks here want you to use their money so
they can shaft you with their interest rates (I am cynical) I am going to
try a few building societies and community banks tomorrow (as I want to buy
stuff over the net from suppliers and not use their AU rip off agents)

Regards,

Kat.

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2001\10\23@154745 by steve

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> David Van Horn wrote:
> >
> > I cringe at each bank swap, thinking of the four
> > AVR instructions that would have gone there, all to do a port
> > operation that is much more complicated (the read-mod-write) than on
> > the AVR.

But then you'd use those four instructions to do a single bit
manipulation. Before this degenerates into a flame war for your
favourite uC, I'll confess to being a bit of a microcontroller slut. I'll
go with whatever fits the particular job.

> I guess it's a difference in how we think, but I found the AVR to be
> needlessly complicated in how it implements the 32 GPRs to be totally
> non-logical.

That is pretty restrictive on the low end parts like the 1200 and the
2313. Maybe inconvenient is a better word than restrictive.

> > I would expect that C should be more efficient on the AVR, as it
> > seems well designed for it

> I think this is where the AVR shines

That's what I thought too, but I have tried the experiment a few
times and haven't had any results that agree.

Here are some numbers for a real embedded application that is in
production. The original was done on a 8535. This has multiplexed
LEDs, keyboard scanning, beeper frequency generation, SPI
peripherals, pin bashed clocked serial comms and some setup info
stored in EEPROM. A lot of the code is decoding messages, doing
boolean operations on the data and acting accordingly. It's a pretty
good benchmark for this range of micro.

In the 8535 it took 81% of 4k words and 131 bytes of ram. ($4.10)
In a 16F874 it took 60% of 4k words and 123 bytes of ram ($5.15)
In a 89C52 it took 54% of 8k bytes and 158 bytes of ram. ($2.33)
Add $0.50 for external EEPROM for the 89C52.
Prices are US$ retail 100 of.

The AVR was compiled with AVR-GCC, the PIC with HiTech-C and
the 8052 with Keil-C.

Clear winner here is 8x51. Not only is it the best bang for buck but
it is multi-sourced and the application can grow to 64k in the same
footprint.

In very broad, general terms, (and IMHO) PIC ranks the best in
peripherals per dollar. The interrupts, combined with the execution
speed, make the AVR stand out for some applications. For general
push-beep-blink applications, the good old 8051 will still put the
most $$ in your back pocket.

Then there's the EM for low power, the M16C if you want one of
everything, the MPC555 if you want several of everything, the HCxx
if you want none of anything and anything Intel if you want your
batteries to go flat. There's something out there for everyone. :-)

Steve.



======================================================
Steve Baldwin                Electronic Product Design
TLA Microsystems Ltd         Microcontroller Specialists
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2001\10\23@155824 by David VanHorn

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At 08:41 AM 10/24/01 +1200, Steve Baldwin wrote:
> > David Van Horn wrote:
> > >
> > > I cringe at each bank swap, thinking of the four
> > > AVR instructions that would have gone there, all to do a port
> > > operation that is much more complicated (the read-mod-write) than on
> > > the AVR.
>
>But then you'd use those four instructions to do a single bit
>manipulation. Before this degenerates into a flame war for your
>favourite uC, I'll confess to being a bit of a microcontroller slut. I'll
>go with whatever fits the particular job.

Read, Mask, Write, still only 75% of a pic instruction, and I don't have to
deal with the read-mod-write problem, or flop pages to get there.



>In the 8535 it took 81% of 4k words and 131 bytes of ram. ($4.10)
>In a 16F874 it took 60% of 4k words and 123 bytes of ram ($5.15)
>In a 89C52 it took 54% of 8k bytes and 158 bytes of ram. ($2.33)
>Add $0.50 for external EEPROM for the 89C52.
>Prices are US$ retail 100 of.
>
>The AVR was compiled with AVR-GCC, the PIC with HiTech-C and
>the 8052 with Keil-C.

Which is why we can never get a head-to-head comparison :)

I'm with you on that though, if you can get the job done in a cheaper box,
then by all means.

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2001\10\23@190906 by steve

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> >In the 8535 it took 81% of 4k words and 131 bytes of ram. ($4.10) In
> >a 16F874 it took 60% of 4k words and 123 bytes of ram ($5.15) In a
> >89C52 it took 54% of 8k bytes and 158 bytes of ram. ($2.33) Add $0.50
> >for external EEPROM for the 89C52. Prices are US$ retail 100 of.
> >
> >The AVR was compiled with AVR-GCC, the PIC with HiTech-C and
> >the 8052 with Keil-C.
>
> Which is why we can never get a head-to-head comparison :)

It seems to me that the example is a head-to-head comparison as
it is exactly what any benchmark is trying to simulate.

Of course, if a real comparison means compiling for all three parts
using say, AVR-GCC, then AVR would clearly win because the
other targets failed to compile. Therefore, AVR is the better part
and a job awaits you at Atmel's marketing department. :-)

Steve.

======================================================
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TLA Microsystems Ltd         Microcontroller Specialists
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2001\10\23@210037 by Douglas Wood

picon face
Yes. I implemented zero-flag propagation in EPICIS, but it added a couple of
instructions generated per EPICIS instruction (translation: slows things
down a bit). The AVR instruction does this for you, thus reducing the amount
of assembly code you (or the compiler) has to generate.

Douglas Wood
Software Engineer
EraseMEdbwoodspam@spam@kc.rr.com

Home of the EPICIS Development System for the PIC and SX
http://epicis.piclist.com

{Original Message removed}

2001\10\23@221407 by Peter Crowcroft

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Subject: Re: [OT]: why are Atmels so cheap vs. PICs
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

{Quote hidden}

>
>Which raises another question: why are the PIC16F627 and
>PIC16F628 so much cheaper than the PIC16F84 which they can
>easily replace?


Unfortunately, neither the 627 or 628 are available in Hong Kong. Maybe
this is because the Microchip office here is very poor (my two dealings
with them recently showed them to be uninterested in any business), or it
is just that so little original work is done in Asia that new designs from
north America/Europe have not filtered thru to here yet.

Certainly it is my impression that Atmel is more 'popular' here than
Microchip, and the prices I quoted show why.

regards,

Peter Crowcroft
           DIY Electronics (HK) Ltd
     PO Box 88458, Sham Shui Po, Hong Kong
Voice: 852-2720 0255,  6273 2049(m)   Fax: 852-2725 0610
Web:  http://kitsrus.com     Email: @spam@peterspam_OUTspam.....kitsrus.com
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2001\10\23@234156 by steve

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> Unfortunately, neither the 627 or 628 are available in Hong Kong.
> Maybe this is because the Microchip office here is very poor (my two
> dealings with them recently showed them to be uninterested in any
> business), or it is just that so little original work is done in Asia
> that new designs from north America/Europe have not filtered thru to
> here yet.

Peter,

I don't know if you enjoy a bit of irony, but some time ago you this
to say on the very same subject:

> You know this type of complaining really gets to me!
> By being on this list YOU are face to face with the exponentially
> increasing explosion in knowledge happening today. Yet you
> want the world in new Zealand to stay as it was in the 1960's
> with a fully equiped DSE/Jaycar down the street with 104
> monoblocks in a choice of .1" or .2" pitch.  Get real.  If you want
> to live in a backwater for electronic hardware development then
> accept that there is an increasing cost.

Welcome to the collective (ie. anywhere but the US) backwater. :-)

Steve.

======================================================
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TLA Microsystems Ltd         Microcontroller Specialists
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2001\10\24@060359 by Jean-Michel Howland

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>Hey Jean-Michel, where abouts in Perth are you ??  a few of us from David's
>AVR list are talking of a get together soon :o)

I'm over in Innaloo.

>I would love to meet all these ppl I talk to daily online :o)

Sounds good to me and as long as the place is wheelchair friendly I'll be
there.  Where do I find this AVR list?

>I live in Kensington (a very short walk (by WA standards) to Worldwide
>Electronics (My second home, just ask mike lol))

I was there a couple of weeks ago, bought a Z80 and a few support chips for
a small CP/M system I'm trying to build. :)  If I was closer I'd ask Mike
if I could move in!

Regards
Jean-Michel.

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2001\10\24@062922 by Kathy Quinlan

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Hi Mate,

I will make sure of that, cause if they are not, they are not worth
anybody's patronage :o)

Unfortunately we are all helping David VanHorn, to get his mail server back
up and running so we can have our fun place back.

Kewl if it works out let me know, I used to use industrial S100 buss systems
in the security industry with (8" disk drives) and they were all CPM based
:o)

Regards,

Kat.


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{Original Message removed}

2001\10\24@122656 by Jean-Michel Howland

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Hi Kat,

>I will make sure of that, cause if they are not, they are not worth
>anybody's patronage :o)

Oh I don't know about that, if they have a good drop of red inside I'll
find a way in. :o)

>Unfortunately we are all helping David VanHorn, to get his mail server back
>up and running so we can have our fun place back.

When the list is back up and running could you let me know so I can
subscribe please?

>Kewl if it works out let me know, I used to use industrial S100 buss systems
>in the security industry with (8" disk drives) and they were all CPM based
>:o)

Ahh, the good old days!  Actually if you don't mind I would like to pick
your brains offlist as I need help and you might be able to help seeing
your so close?

Regards
Jean-Michel.

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2001\10\25@051113 by Kathy Quinlan

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Hi Jean-Michel,

I wish I could drink lol, just most alcohol has a high sugar content and
that is a no no :o(

Sure hon, email away, somewhere I still have all the old manuals for S100
CPU, Memory, multi IO serial and a Floppy disk controller, unfortunately my
S100 system hit the tip when the 8" floppy drives bit the dust and I had not
software to run :o(

Regards,

Kat.

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