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PICList Thread
'piclist admin test...'
1999\02\08@180320 by jvd

flavicon
face
got it

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[spam_OUTPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of jory bell
Sent: Monday, February 08, 1999 3:52 PM
To: .....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: piclist admin test...


testing

'PICLIST Administrativa'
1999\02\08@233730 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
(Posted on Jory's behalf to help things work better.)

 People, we know there's problems - PLEASE, Please don't keep posting
again and again with different subjects, the same post.  Your posts are
GETTING THROUGH.  And it confuses people as to which post you want us to
reply to.

 Just post once, accept that you'll quite possibly get a (spurious)
error message, and expect that likely as not the mail server will post
your message twice anyways (We got prollems, but sending MORE messages
won't do anything but make this worse, changing the subject line will
just cause another error message to come to you - if you want umpteen
error messages & a annoyed bunch of engineers on the PICList, so be it
<G>)

 CC'ing this to Jory for his info, hoping it gets solved soon <G>

 Mark

1999\02\09@004930 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 20:34 02/08/99 -0800, Mark Willis wrote:
>  People, we know there's problems - PLEASE, Please don't keep posting
>again and again with different subjects, the same post.  Your posts are
>GETTING THROUGH.

i don't remember the exact command, but there is a command you can send to
the list server which enables that your own messages get sent back to you
(by default this is disabled). as long as this is going like it does, you
might want to enable this option -- then you get a confirmation that your
message got through despite the "rejected" messages.

ge

1999\02\09@021406 by Larry Dewey

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face
At 09:48 PM 2/8/99 -0800, you wrote:
>At 20:34 02/08/99 -0800, Mark Willis wrote:
>>  People, we know there's problems - PLEASE, Please don't keep posting
>>again and again with different subjects, the same post.  Your posts are
>>GETTING THROUGH.
>
>i don't remember the exact command, but there is a command you can send to
>the list server which enables that your own messages get sent back to you
>(by default this is disabled). as long as this is going like it does, you
>might want to enable this option -- then you get a confirmation that your
>message got through despite the "rejected" messages.
>
>ge
>
>

It's SET PICLIST REPRO

Larry

1999\02\09@022027 by erik

flavicon
face
Here is a portion of the PIC list confirmation notice I received when I
signed on.
As seen below, the command would be "SET PICLIST REPRO" or "SET PICLIST
ACK NOREPRO"


You may leave the list at any time by sending a "SIGNOFF PICLIST"
command
to LISTSERVspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU (or .....LISTSERVKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.BITNET). You can also
tell
LISTSERV how you want  it to confirm the receipt of  messages you send
to
the list.  If you  do not trust  the system, send  a "SET  PICLIST
REPRO"
command and LISTSERV will  send you a copy of your  own messages, so
that
you can see that  the message was distributed and did  not get damaged
on
the  way. After  a while  you  may find  that this  is getting
annoying,
especially if  your mail program  does not tell  you that the  message
is
from you when it  informs you that new mail has  arrived from PICLIST.
If
you send  a "SET PICLIST ACK  NOREPRO" command, LISTSERV will  mail you
a
short acknowledgement instead, which will  look different in your
mailbox
directory. With most mail programs you will know immediately that this
is
an  acknowledgement  you  can  read  later. Finally,  you  can  turn
off
acknowledgements completely with "SET PICLIST NOACK NOREPRO".

Following  instructions from  the list  owner, your  subscription
options
have been set to "MIME" rather than the usual LISTSERV defaults. For
more
information about subscription options, send a "QUERY PICLIST" command
to
EraseMELISTSERVspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU (or LISTSERVspamspam_OUTMITVMA.BITNET).

Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\02\09@083630 by paulb

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face
Gerhard Fiedler wrote:

> I don't remember the exact command, but there is a command you can
> send to the list server which enables that your own messages get sent
> back to you (by default this is disabled).

 As others have said, SET PICLIST REPRO

 But this must be sent to the listserver, *not* the list.  What's the
bet we get half a dozen postings of this to the list?

> as long as this is going like it does, you might want to enable this
> option -- then you get a confirmation that your message got through
> despite the "rejected" messages.

 I see no reason whatsoever to do so.  As best I can see, *No-one* is
getting "rejected" messages, they are *already* getting *confirmatory*
replies.

 What is so absolutely, awfully infuriating about the problem is the
stubborn refusal of people to *read* the messages they get.  They look
at them briefly and presume, but don't actually read them.  That said,
it's understandable given the awful "block" (Justified) format of the
message, 8 or 9 solid lines of apparently conflicting information.

 You may actually receive either or *both* of two sorts of message,
*neither* of which makes any suggestion you should post again!

 The error-message from the list-server *DOES NOT SAY* that your
message wasn't transferred, or didn't "get through".  Those who actually
*read* it find what it actually says is that your posting was received
by the list-server *more than once* and was distributed the first time.

 Of course, you didn«t post it more than once to start with, so it was
obviously not your fault, but must have been an "echo" somewhere and of
course this matter is still under investigation.  The list is telling
you it has a *safety feature* to prevent messages being sent out more
than once.

 Therefore, as it *has* distributed it already, you shouldn«t post it
*again*.  This message goes on to say if you *really, really, really*
want to subject the list to *extra* copies of your posting, you have to
change it around to get past its protective function.  But you *don«t*
want to do this!

 The second sort of message says that a posting couldn«t be delivered
somewhere, *because the recipient no longer exists*.

 This message is *not* from the listserver, but from some long-forsaken
spot in the wilds of the Internet, not even remotely connected with the
listserver.  It's impossible your message would need to stop off at this
site to arrive at the listserver, so it's obviously been passed on and
*everyone else* on the list has received the posting, so you don«t need
to send it again.

 Not only that, but the message is telling you explicitly that no
matter *how many* times you send, it will *never* get to this particular
recipient because ... they no longer exist!  It«s not fair to spam the
rest of the list just to test that out.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\02\09@182315 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 00:03 02/10/99 +1000, Paul B. Webster VK2BZC wrote:
>Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
>
>> I don't remember the exact command, but there is a command you can
>> send to the >>> list server <<< which enables that your own messages get
sent

>  But this must be sent to the listserver, *not* the list.  What's the
>bet we get half a dozen postings of this to the list?

haven't seen a single one, so far :)  

>  I see no reason whatsoever to do so.

so feel free not to do so. i have it set up like that because i like it.
and i don't see how this could possibly bother anyone.

>  Therefore, as it *has* distributed it already, you shouldn«t post it
>*again*.

i guess i never posted twice to the list, did i?

i may have sent one or another message to both the list and the author to
whom i replied though, because i use the "reply to all" function in order
to get the name of the person to whom i respond in the message (as above),
and i may have forgotten to delete the additional recipient once in a
while. sorry for that, if that's the case and it bothered you.

ge

1999\02\10@042743 by paulb

flavicon
face
Gerhard Fiedler wrote:

>>  But this must be sent to the listserver, *not* the list.  What's the
>> bet we get half a dozen postings of this to the list?
> haven't seen a single one, so far :)

 Now *that* worries me!  Suggests no-one, or no-one who actually needs
to, reads messages entitled "PICLIST Administrativa"! :)

 (Regarding SET PICLIST REPRO)
> so feel free not to do so.  I have it set up like that because I like
> it.  And I don't see how this could possibly bother anyone.

 I have no problem with that whatsoever.  My point was simply that the
occurrence of these spurious "delivery error" messages is in no way,
shape or form, an indication of any shortcoming of the listserver in
delivering messages.

 The listserver and the whole forwarding structure is in fact doing
absolutely fine, distributing the list messages with the utmost
reliability.  Whilst the listserver may be *generating* supervisory
messages, all the "delivery error" messages are *caused* by an
infinitessimal minority of dysfunctional (but possibly deliberately)
systems which are *quite* peripheral to the orderly distribution of the
list.

 The point is then that nothing about the "delivery error" messages
indicates *any* need for reassurance, temporary *or* long-standing, that
posted messages are getting through the list.  Correctly seen, they are
themselves temporary acknowledgements of messages passing correctly.

 You or anyone may certainly choose to SET PICLIST REPRO for your
curiousity and it certainly bothers no-one, but the "delivery error"
messages should play *no* part in that decision.  That's all. (Whew! :)

> I guess I never posted twice to the list, did I?

 I made, nor wished to make, no suggestion that Gerhard did any such
thing.

 Pointless it likely is, as I suspect new users or new posters
are probably too single-minded on their current problem to read very
much in the way of how-to.s or read-me.s, but I wished to clarify the
true significance of the messages under discussion and to say "Don't
Panic!", the list is working 100% effectively and correctly, there is no
need whatsoever to take any evasive or corrective action, just
understand what they mean, and then do no more than delete them.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.


'piclist admin changes'
1999\03\02@170615 by Tom Handley
picon face
At 04:38 PM 3/1/99 -0800, Jory Bell wrote:
[New Policy Update snipped]

  Jory, I would just like to pass on a long overdue "THANKS" for all your
hard work in providing us with this list. This has become much more than a
discussion of Microchip's PIC's processors. It has become an international
exchange of ideas between engineers as well as students. The `wealth' of
expertise here is absolutely incredible.

  I appreciate your policy and I will support both you and Mark. I don't
think we need to resort to a moderated group which imposes a great burden
on the moderators. I use to be a moderator in McGraw-Hill's Byte Information
Exchange (BIX), in the Amiga area.

  - Tom Handley

New Age Communications. Since 1975, before `New Age', and no one around
here is waiting for UFOs...

1999\03\03@094332 by Engineering Department

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face
<Tom Handley wrote in part>
>
>   Jory, I would just like to pass on a long overdue "THANKS" for all your
>hard work in providing us with this list. This has become much more than a
>discussion of Microchip's PIC's processors. It has become an international
>exchange of ideas between engineers as well as students. The `wealth' of
>expertise here is absolutely incredible.
>
>   I appreciate your policy and I will support both you and Mark. I don't
>think we need to resort to a moderated group which imposes a great burden
>on the moderators
<snip>

I definitely agree.  THANKS Jory.

Win Wiencke


'PICList Administration: What we're trying to do he'
1999\04\14@084328 by Mark Willis
flavicon
face
Trying to do, you notice, not MANAGING to do <G>  Up sorta late
tonight (and in a quite weird sense of humor), finally getting to
posting something to the list about the recent travails of the list.
Get Jory to fire me if you hate my humor <G>  I speak for myself & my
understanding of the list, but think I mostly understand Jory's wants
here.

 ---

 Problem as it exists today:

 (a)  People on the PICList are very well-practiced in posting way
off-topic posts to the PICList;  These not only consist of reports of
Viruses [that upon just opening, will make your parents retroactively
sterile - since before you were born; that'll dial overseas to the most
expensive "Time" signal in the world relative to you, and keep your
phone locked onto that signal for hours, every night, despite your
turning LD service off and unplugging the modem at night; that'll erase
your laptop's hard drive - even though the laptop's turned off; that'll
cause the crews of black helicopters/UFO's to try to abduct and "Probe"
you; and that will definitely make your pets hate you - and indicate
their displeasure with you in unpleasant, yet creative, ways] - but also
such off-topic commentaries as:

 CAUTION:  Do Not Look Into Laser Beam With Remaining Eye.
 and
 Comparisons of sub-Megaton Explosive yields of Tantalum, versus low
ESR Electrolytic, Caps.

 (b)  People on the PICList are even BETTER at replying in creative
ways to posts from (a) above, than at originating them.  This is scary,
frankly <G>  And we're all VERY good at arguing about what IS, or is
NOT, "On Topic".

 (c)  It's easier to continue an off-topic thread, than to start a new
off-topic thread, apparently.  This probably is Murphy's doing.

 (d)  There's a great breadth and depth of knowledge and experience on
the PICList;  You name it, several of us have done it for a living - or
fun - once if not several times.  Probably.  And the rest of us have
figured out at least 3 or 4 good ways to start planning to do it <G>

 (e)  Jory and I aren't getting paid to manage the list;  We don't even
get free coffee.  Those long nights of reading e-mail instead of
sleeping tend to warp our brains, frustrate us, and get us pretty tired
- and THEN we start on reading PICList mail.  Fortunately, all our
work's already been done for us - by those people who already told every
other poster that their posts were off topic <G>  Where's that order of
IV caffeine I sent for, darnit?  <G>

 (f)  Thought experiment:  Define "On Topic" with regards to the
PICList.  Compare your definition with that from a fellow PICLister
whose opinion you regard highly.  Expect to see "some" differences in
opinion.

 (g)  The denizens of the PICList have been through a lot of "crud"
lately - The Troll Wars, The Middle-East Jihad, and now the Mid-Life
Mutation crisis.  We're all a little cranky & busy, and just a little
ready to flame someone who "gets our goat".  (And we forget that our
goat's easily gotten, some days.)

 ---

 4:00AM-5:30AM humor aside, the PICList can be a good place to help
each other, to learn from each other, to teach each other, and to
practice PIC-related skills.  We have some problems in managing the list
- Jory & I need to spend our time taking the people who fight on the
list, or abuse the list, off the list - yet if we build an automated
tool, and people who aren't listening to what we post are affected by
that tool, they complain widely to the list.  If we spend all our time
sending notes to people who stray - who post replies to way off-topic
threads, etc. - then Jory and I end up with no time to plan what'd be
better to try next, to improve the list.  It's frustrating me, and I
imagine it frustrated Jory.

 Something I know:  Clearly nobody can FORCE you to reply to a PICList
post;  You & only you can choose TO or NOT to respond, to repond
appropriately, etc.  This is where the problem's at - one members' ON
topic is anothers' OFF topic, then we descend into arguments about what
IS or IS NOT on topic.  And we then miss the humor that can be here,
that can make it more fun to be here.

 What we'd like for now, as we try to get things figured out, is for
any "Way way OT posts" that someone does mistakenly post to the list -
however compelling or blatantly wrong or stupid they may be - to not get
*any* replies, so we can deal with just the originator, as appropriate.
Feel free to post to me if you see something, let's just not upset the
whole list if there's a problem, they're already upset enough.  Let Jory
and I do our job, and get things improved here.

 I don't have a problem with a reasonable amount of topic drift - nor
does Jory.  As I mentioned in (d) and (f) above, it's darn hard to
determine what IS on topic or off topic, in this list!  And it's
subjective - Your laser pen that you buy as a PIC remote sender to a
photodiode, is the same toy that I exercise my cat with <G>  I sorta use
an activity/intent based filter here - is the post, about or intended to
help fellow list members?

 Summary of General categories to posting in the PICList:

 (A)  Anything that helps or supports more than ONE, PICList member,
belongs in the PicList - the more the merrier, of course - Where you can
find parts for your project, coding help, how to wire an emitter
follower, what an emitter follower IS, etc., those're NEEDED for some of
us to use PICs, it'd be silly to object to those.  Sensors, Math, etc.,
are fine as well.  Safety tips (Remember the "Explosion" thread?)
definitely will HELP Piclist members keep their sight - that's a good
thing!  Though maybe make that [OT] just to forestall gripes?

 (B)  If you have something more off topic, but still PIC-related, I
don't have a problem (and I don't think Jory does either.)  Put [OT] on
the start of the subject, if you remember to - and try to remember to
<G>  Things like how to use or download Eval copies of various PCB CAD
tools, Op Amp slew rates needed for some project, huffman coding, FFT's,
and so on - probably belong here.  (It's subjective, I go on "is it
going to help, or be of interest, to more than one PICList member?" and
"Is it at least somewhat pertinent to a PIC-related project, learning
electronics, or the like", basically.)  If you post 47k of PIC code, or
some oddball .OCX file repeatedly, expect me to at least grumble at you,
but probably just that.

 (C)  If you have something like sales for your personal electronics
goodies, where to buy a laser pen (even tho it's for a PIC project), job
offers made or job availability announced, Ads for your electronics/PICs
company's services, announcements of real-world happenings, and so on -
or something you personally want to share with the whole list - these
should probably be considered to be getting "more" off topic - PLEASE
put [OT] in the Subject line, and PLEASE set the Reply-To address to
your own e-mail address, so replies automatically go to you & *not* the
whole list.  I'd definitely consider (think about) deleting people who
reply to the whole list on these (as they'd have to intentionally CHANGE
the reply-to address.)  Unless their post convinces me otherwise, or
it's a special case - We'll stay flexible as possible, AND, we want to
minimize list strife - if you're acting positively to support the list
and/or list members, you're not going to be in trouble with me, and I
doubt you'll be in trouble with Jory.  (If an automated tool takes you
off the list anyways, Jory's the "court of last resort" - it's HIS
list.  <G>)

 A post like "Joe Blow's post dated yymmdd subject "blah" contains the
xyzzy virus as it's enclosure" can fit here, it's OT but intended to
save PICList members from the misery of getting a virus.

 In my book: "Happy Easter, I'm happy" is OK, as it's positive in the
sender's eye.  If sender has no intent to harm, it's all right.  (As
judged by Jory's/My reading their post, probably.)  Religious press
releases aren't personal, though;  Attacks as replies, just don't belong
here, in the PICList.  That's free speech - best I can do.  If you want
to reply list-wide, clear it with Jory or I, then zero problems.)

 If you share something with the list & someone bugs you off-list about
it, not much I can do (even for the worst offenders, at least they're
off list - people will have THEIR own opinions.  And you are putting
yourself in front of lots of people if you post this way, so be
considerate of them, or don't expect consideration in return.)

 (D)  If you post "Random topics" such as religious press releases or
urban legends, pick a fight with someone, or otherwise act
destructively, OTOH, I'll kick you off soon as I can - You can appeal to
Jory, of course.  Good LUCK there, though <G>  You'll NEED it.

 ---

 We're going to probably try a "Penalty Box" situation in the future
instead of unsubscribing lesser abusers, I think (We're talking about
it.)  This would stop people stuck "in the box" from posting TO the
list, they'd still be subscribed and able to receive list mail, but
would have a time to think.  Might start short & get longer with each
offense, we're thinking/talking - and trying to remember what we said
last <G>

 Trying to (again) clarify where things are at, and where we want to
go, hope this helps.  Now, I'm going to go to bed...  3 hours of sleep
is plenty, right?  <G>

 Mark

1999\04\15@052246 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
{Re-sending this as it doesn't seem to have made it to the list and
back to me, nor to the PICList Archive?!}

Trying to do, you notice, not MANAGING to do <G>  Up sorta late
tonight (and in a quite weird sense of humor), finally getting to
posting something to the list about the recent travails of the list.
Get Jory to fire me if you hate my humor <G>  I speak for myself & my
understanding of the list, but think I mostly understand Jory's wants
here.

 ---

 Problem as it exists today:

 (a)  People on the PICList are very well-practiced in posting way
off-topic posts to the PICList;  These not only consist of reports of
Viruses [that upon just opening, will make your parents retroactively
sterile - since before you were born; that'll dial overseas to the most
expensive "Time" signal in the world relative to you, and keep your
phone locked onto that signal for hours, every night, despite your
turning LD service off and unplugging the modem at night; that'll erase
your laptop's hard drive - even though the laptop's turned off; that'll
cause the crews of black helicopters/UFO's to try to abduct and "Probe"
you; and that will definitely make your pets hate you - and indicate
their displeasure with you in unpleasant, yet creative, ways] - but also
such off-topic commentaries as:

 CAUTION:  Do Not Look Into Laser Beam With Remaining Eye.
 and
 Comparisons of sub-Megaton Explosive yields of Tantalum, versus low
ESR Electrolytic, Caps.

 (b)  People on the PICList are even BETTER at replying in creative
ways to posts from (a) above, than at originating them.  This is scary,
frankly <G>  And we're all VERY good at arguing about what IS, or is
NOT, "On Topic".

 (c)  It's easier to continue an off-topic thread, than to start a new
off-topic thread, apparently.  This probably is Murphy's doing.

 (d)  There's a great breadth and depth of knowledge and experience on
the PICList;  You name it, several of us have done it for a living - or
fun - once if not several times.  Probably.  And the rest of us have
figured out at least 3 or 4 good ways to start planning to do it <G>

 (e)  Jory and I aren't getting paid to manage the list;  We don't even
get free coffee.  Those long nights of reading e-mail instead of
sleeping tend to warp our brains, frustrate us, and get us pretty tired
- and THEN we start on reading PICList mail.  Fortunately, all our
work's already been done for us - by those people who already told every
other poster that their posts were off topic <G>  Where's that order of
IV caffeine I sent for, darnit?  <G>

 (f)  Thought experiment:  Define "On Topic" with regards to the
PICList.  Compare your definition with that from a fellow PICLister
whose opinion you regard highly.  Expect to see "some" differences in
opinion.

 (g)  The denizens of the PICList have been through a lot of "crud"
lately - The Troll Wars, The Middle-East Jihad, and now the Mid-Life
Mutation crisis.  We're all a little cranky & busy, and just a little
ready to flame someone who "gets our goat".  (And we forget that our
goat's easily gotten, some days.)

 ---

 4:00AM-5:30AM humor aside, the PICList can be a good place to help
each other, to learn from each other, to teach each other, and to
practice PIC-related skills.  We have some problems in managing the list
- Jory & I need to spend our time taking the people who fight on the
list, or abuse the list, off the list - yet if we build an automated
tool, and people who aren't listening to what we post are affected by
that tool, they complain widely to the list.  If we spend all our time
sending notes to people who stray - who post replies to way off-topic
threads, etc. - then Jory and I end up with no time to plan what'd be
better to try next, to improve the list.  It's frustrating me, and I
imagine it frustrated Jory.

 Something I know:  Clearly nobody can FORCE you to reply to a PICList
post;  You & only you can choose TO or NOT to respond, to repond
appropriately, etc.  This is where the problem's at - one members' ON
topic is anothers' OFF topic, then we descend into arguments about what
IS or IS NOT on topic.  And we then miss the humor that can be here,
that can make it more fun to be here.

 What we'd like for now, as we try to get things figured out, is for
any "Way way OT posts" that someone does mistakenly post to the list -
however compelling or blatantly wrong or stupid they may be - to not get
*any* replies, so we can deal with just the originator, as appropriate.
Feel free to post to me if you see something, let's just not upset the
whole list if there's a problem, they're already upset enough.  Let Jory
and I do our job, and get things improved here.

 I don't have a problem with a reasonable amount of topic drift - nor
does Jory.  As I mentioned in (d) and (f) above, it's darn hard to
determine what IS on topic or off topic, in this list!  And it's
subjective - Your laser pen that you buy as a PIC remote sender to a
photodiode, is the same toy that I exercise my cat with <G>  I sorta use
an activity/intent based filter here - is the post, about or intended to
help fellow list members?

 Summary of General categories to posting in the PICList:

 (A)  Anything that helps or supports more than ONE, PICList member,
belongs in the PicList - the more the merrier, of course - Where you can
find parts for your project, coding help, how to wire an emitter
follower, what an emitter follower IS, etc., those're NEEDED for some of
us to use PICs, it'd be silly to object to those.  Sensors, Math, etc.,
are fine as well.  Safety tips (Remember the "Explosion" thread?)
definitely will HELP Piclist members keep their sight - that's a good
thing!  Though maybe make that [OT] just to forestall gripes?

 (B)  If you have something more off topic, but still PIC-related, I
don't have a problem (and I don't think Jory does either.)  Put [OT] on
the start of the subject, if you remember to - and try to remember to
<G>  Things like how to use or download Eval copies of various PCB CAD
tools, Op Amp slew rates needed for some project, huffman coding, FFT's,
and so on - probably belong here.  (It's subjective, I go on "is it
going to help, or be of interest, to more than one PICList member?" and
"Is it at least somewhat pertinent to a PIC-related project, learning
electronics, or the like", basically.)  If you post 47k of PIC code, or
some oddball .OCX file repeatedly, expect me to at least grumble at you,
but probably just that.

 (C)  If you have something like sales for your personal electronics
goodies, where to buy a laser pen (even tho it's for a PIC project), job
offers made or job availability announced, Ads for your electronics/PICs
company's services, announcements of real-world happenings, and so on -
or something you personally want to share with the whole list - these
should probably be considered to be getting "more" off topic - PLEASE
put [OT] in the Subject line, and PLEASE set the Reply-To address to
your own e-mail address, so replies automatically go to you & *not* the
whole list.  I'd definitely consider (think about) deleting people who
reply to the whole list on these (as they'd have to intentionally CHANGE
the reply-to address.)  Unless their post convinces me otherwise, or
it's a special case - We'll stay flexible as possible, AND, we want to
minimize list strife - if you're acting positively to support the list
and/or list members, you're not going to be in trouble with me, and I
doubt you'll be in trouble with Jory.  (If an automated tool takes you
off the list anyways, Jory's the "court of last resort" - it's HIS
list.  <G>)

 A post like "Joe Blow's post dated yymmdd subject "blah" contains the
xyzzy virus as it's enclosure" can fit here, it's OT but intended to
save PICList members from the misery of getting a virus.

 In my book: "Happy Easter, I'm happy" is OK, as it's positive in the
sender's eye.  If sender has no intent to harm, it's all right.  (As
judged by Jory's/My reading their post, probably.)  Religious press
releases aren't personal, though;  Attacks as replies, just don't belong
here, in the PICList.  That's free speech - best I can do.  If you want
to reply list-wide, clear it with Jory or I, then zero problems.)

 If you share something with the list & someone bugs you off-list about
it, not much I can do (even for the worst offenders, at least they're
off list - people will have THEIR own opinions.  And you are putting
yourself in front of lots of people if you post this way, so be
considerate of them, or don't expect consideration in return.)

 (D)  If you post "Random topics" such as religious press releases or
urban legends, pick a fight with someone, or otherwise act
destructively, OTOH, I'll kick you off soon as I can - You can appeal to
Jory, of course.  Good LUCK there, though <G>  You'll NEED it.

 ---

 We're going to probably try a "Penalty Box" situation in the future
instead of unsubscribing lesser abusers, I think (We're talking about
it.)  This would stop people stuck "in the box" from posting TO the
list, they'd still be subscribed and able to receive list mail, but
would have a time to think.  Might start short & get longer with each
offense, we're thinking/talking - and trying to remember what we said
last <G>

 Trying to (again) clarify where things are at, and where we want to
go, hope this helps.  Now, I'm going to go to bed...  3 hours of sleep
is plenty, right?  <G>

 Mark

'PICList Admin: New members options change'
1999\04\30@043622 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Hi, all.  Tomorrow fairly early in the day, I will be implementing one
minor change for new users, thought I'd tell everyone, though this will
only affect NEW members that join after I do this.

 Asked Jory & he agreed that the current setup on this seems to violate
the "Principle of least astonishment", as I call it.  New members of the
PICList will be soon joining with their REPRO option initially set ON,
instead of OFF;  This should reduce the number of "Test" posts from new
members who post to the list & cannot figure out why they don't get a
copy of their first few posts back, which is a good thing <G>

 If you're reading this you're already a member so your REPRO options
will not be affected, mainly anyone writing FAQ information or HTML
pages will want to know this.

 I'm waiting until tomorrow to prevent possibility of really messing up
& mangling the list <G>  I'll re-read the huge manual before I do it,
too, it's time I did one of these changes instead of leaning on Jory.
It's been a long, good day.

 Mark, assistant PICList Admin.


'[PICList Admin] The "No such User!" message some h'
1999\05\04@005044 by Mark Willis
flavicon
face
Well, folks, I tracked the cause down, and am about to ask that the
sitation be fixed.  (CC'ed it to Jory.)

 Fortunately this was only affecting a few people;  If you were one of
the few who received these "No such user: {something} @ winnt.mail", I
predict that the reason you received such an error message was that you
sent a message to the PICList with parentheses () in the subject line,
and that the error you received back had all or part of what you typed
in that subject line, as the e-mail address that was a non-existent user
at winnt.mail - I couldn't get anyone to send full headers my way, but
once I tested this scenario, I got full headers myself, so I can write a
note to the source of the problem.

 (In plainer english, if your subject line was "[OT] Weather!
(foobar)", you would have received an error back that said
"@spam@foobarKILLspamspamwinnt.mail - no such user here.", in the body, with "No such
user!" as a subject line.)

 Probably just a broken internal mailing Daemon or something, I'll let
the person talk with their ISP about fixing it!

 Mark

'PICLIST Administrator: UNSUBCRIBE ME!!!! PLEASE!!!'
1999\05\12@041640 by Manuel Molina Rojas

flavicon
face
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 13:50:20 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Manuel Molina Rojas <i42morom@lucano>
To: KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspammitvma.mit.edu
Subject: PICLIST Administrator: UNSUBCRIBE ME!!!! PLEASE!!!


I cant unsubscribe on my own. Could you please unsubscribe me  please?


Thank you

1999\05\12@044137 by Manuel Molina Rojas

flavicon
face
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 13:50:20 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Manuel Molina Rojas <i42morom@lucano>
To: RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspammitvma.mit.edu
Subject: PICLIST Administrator: UNSUBCRIBE ME!!!! PLEASE!!!


I cant unsubscribe on my own. Could you please unsubscribe me  please?


Thank you


'[PICList ADMIN] Someone's bouncing messages back i'
1999\06\22@195112 by Mark Willis
flavicon
face
And I am pretty sure I know who it is, if you get a "Rejected posting
to the PICList" message, it's from this person's copy of your message
being re-directed back to the PICList through fate or a mistake or
whatever.  Thanks for the patience.

 Mark


'[PICList Admin] Mail routing problems (Was Re: Mai'
1999\07\12@192208 by Mark Willis
flavicon
face
Other People seem to be having this problem, Ruben, you're NOT the only
one.  I'm getting list mail just fine, myself, and your posting got to
the mail server just fine...  One other person who was having the same
problem had things get "Stuck" enroute for 4 days, I'd assume that
somewhere a mail server's not sending temporarily, just receiving,
temporarily.

 Mark

Ruben Jšnsson wrote:
{Quote hidden}


'[PICList Administritiva]: e-mail address change fo'
1999\08\30@144515 by Mark Willis
flavicon
face
I'll be at TakeThisOuTmwillisEraseMEspamspam_OUTfoxinternet.net, starting Wednesday (2 days from
now.)  The current NWLink address will be forwarded to that account for
a month;  The account at foxinternet.net exists now, I'll start fetching
mail tomorrow, from there.

Also, I'm about to change the list's default to Repro, for new users;
somehow thought I'd done that, well, it'll be installed in a minute.

 Mark


'PICList Administrativa: Small weirdness, and a fix'
1999\09\09@030825 by Mark Willis
flavicon
face
Hi, folks.  People have been getting a message acknowledging each post
to the list, suddenly.  IF you're getting this type of message, each
time you post to the PICList:

 Your message dated Thu, 09 Sep 1999 06:35:13 +1000 with
 subject "{whatever}"  has been successfully distributed to the
 PICLIST list (1598 recipients).

I should be able to fix that shortly, I know the cause, and the cure,
but will have to see if the list's behaving itself so I can FIX it.
Worst case, I should have it fixed tomorrow early.  We'll see!

 Mark

'[PICList Admin] possible service problems?'
1999\09\21@101343 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
I've heard a lot of reports of people having problems getting their
e-mail;  I'm sure they won't see this, of course, but apparently a mail
machine or packet router or 10 are having problems.  Everything's
working just fine HERE, fortunately.  (Which is good, I'm sorta cranky
from filling a 27' U-Haul with boxes of computer parts yesterday...)

Patience, if you're affected, and please pass error messages to me if
you get some ("Could not deliver mail" reports tell a lot about what's
wrong on the Internet.)  Now, what was that Internet Traffic Report URL,
I should go look there <G>

 Mark

'[PICList Admin] False "Rejected" messages...'
1999\09\29@005311 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
One person's ISP is generating these from sirius.com;  If you get one,
you'll see two x-comment lines, in the headers, the upper one being from
mail1.sirius.com (or mail2.sirius.com or some other server there.)

Ignore them, for now;  I've asked them to solve it, if not done soon
I'll possibly solve the problem another way.

 Mark


'[PICList Admin] Coming soon, perhaps: "Pretty Park'
1999\10\03@183526 by Mark Willis
flavicon
face
I'm not sure when or if it'll come to this list, but...  There's a
"c:\coolprogs\Pretty Park.Exe" Win9x virus out, making the rounds, just
like Happy99.Exe did a short while ago.  Be forewarned, not infected!

If you run it, "enjoy" the results;  I am not sure if this one wipes
your HDD or not, but it certainly passes itself as an e-mail to everyone
you know - so we'll know you messed up...

"Let's not and say we didn't", though, folks!

 Mark, "Practice safe Hexadecimal"  (or Octal <G>)

'[PICList Admin] "Houston, we have a problem."'
1999\10\09@031723 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
We seem to be having doubling of PICList messages, due to some account
or another.  Both my & Jack Shidemantle's 12C50x posts have doubled,
among others I'm sure.  We'll try to track that down & solve it.  If
some of you get "Rejected posting" posts & can pass headers (the
'unreadable junk' in the body of the message) to me, it'll help me
figure out where this is coming from.

 Mark

'[OT] Re: [PICList Admin] "Houston, we have a probl'
1999\10\09@115114 by Richard Martin

picon face
Gee, Mark I thought it was that you and  Jory had a program that
'doubled' all posts that included the word 'PIC' < or anything
vaguely related> in an effort to jack up the SNR on the list.

R.Martin

Mark Willis wrote:

> We seem to be having doubling of PICList messages, due to some account
> or another.  Both my & Jack Shidemantle's 12C50x posts have doubled,
> among others I'm sure.  We'll try to track that down & solve it.  If
> some of you get "Rejected posting" posts & can pass headers (the
> 'unreadable junk' in the body of the message) to me, it'll help me
> figure out where this is coming from.
>
>   Mark

1999\10\09@115118 by Richard Martin

picon face
Gee, Mark I thought it was that you and  Jory had a program that
'doubled' all posts that included the word 'PIC' < or anything
vaguely related> in an effort to jack up the SNR on the list.
Duhh... must be a S/W gremlin afterall. Shucks.

R.Martin

Mark Willis wrote:

> We seem to be having doubling of PICList messages, due to some account
> or another.  Both my & Jack Shidemantle's 12C50x posts have doubled,
> among others I'm sure.  We'll try to track that down & solve it.  If
> some of you get "Rejected posting" posts & can pass headers (the
> 'unreadable junk' in the body of the message) to me, it'll help me
> figure out where this is coming from.
>
>   Mark


'[Admin] PICList Administrativa'
1999\11\06@231059 by Mark Willis
flavicon
face
Folks, please refrain from HTML posts on the PICList;  Many people on
the list cannot read your posts (their browser won't READ HTML!), and
others such as myself end up squinting to try to read 2-point micro
fonts that are essentially unreadable.  Most browsers that CAN send
HTML, can be configured to send text-only messages in your address book
etc., HTML's for web pages, not really for text e-mail, I've always
thought <G>

 Mark

1999\11\07@010726 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Interesting point is that Netscape defaults to send in HTML format... as
if everyone would choose to use that way.

On Netscape:
To change it, on the main MAIL screen, go to EDIT menu, Preferences,
Mail & Newsgroup, Formating, and at MESSAGE FORMATING, select the "Use
Plain Text Editor to Compose Messages".  Then at the block below, click
"Ask me what to do if the message is in HTML format, otherwise send
plain text".  Note that these changes would only being in effect at the
*next* email you send.

Or, if you want to leave it in HTML settings (only you would know the
reason, because I don't), you can temporarily set NO HTML (plain text)
for that particular message: While composing messages, you can click
OPTIONS menu and select "Plain Text Only".

Now no more excuses why still sending in HTML under Netscape... :)

Wagner Lipnharski
Free Electronics Classifieds:  http://www.ustr.net/classifieds.shtml

Mark Willis wrote:
>
> Folks, please refrain from HTML posts on the PICList;  Many people on
> the list cannot read your posts (their browser won't READ HTML!), and
> others such as myself end up squinting to try to read 2-point micro
> fonts that are essentially unreadable.  Most browsers that CAN send
> HTML, can be configured to send text-only messages in your address
book
> etc., HTML's for web pages, not really for text e-mail, I've always
> thought <G>
>
>   Mark

1999\11\07@024645 by William J. Kitchen

flavicon
face
On 6 Nov 99, at 20:08, Mark Willis wrote:

> Folks, please refrain from HTML posts on the PICList;  Many people on
> the list cannot read your posts (their browser won't READ HTML!), and
> others such as myself end up squinting to try to read 2-point micro
> fonts that are essentially unreadable.  Most browsers that CAN send
> HTML, can be configured to send text-only messages in your address book
> etc., HTML's for web pages, not really for text e-mail, I've always
> thought <G>
>
>   Mark
>

What is the <G> tag supposed to do?  It seems to be incompatible with
my mail reader's implementation of HTML. ;)


---
                                       Peace,
                                       William Kitchen
The future is ours to create.

1999\11\07@034821 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
William J. Kitchen wrote:
{Quote hidden}

The answer is, that it stands for, "Get a Rope!"  <VBEG>

 Mark

1999\11\09@004842 by Alfred Siu

flavicon
face
part 0 842 bytes content-type:text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; (decoded 7bit)

Thanks.


Alf

Mark Willis wrote:

> Folks, please refrain from HTML posts on the PICList;  Many people on
> the list cannot read your posts (their browser won't READ HTML!), and
> others such as myself end up squinting to try to read 2-point micro
> fonts that are essentially unreadable.  Most browsers that CAN send
> HTML, can be configured to send text-only messages in your address book
> etc., HTML's for web pages, not really for text e-mail, I've always
> thought <G>
>
>   Mark

Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
name="baodiao.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for Alfred Siu
Content-Disposition: attachment;
filename="baodiao.vcf"

Attachment converted: wonderland:baodiao.vcf (TEXT/CSOm) (0000F447)


'[PICLIST] [OT] piclist Admin #3'
2001\02\26@040945 by Vasile Surducan
flavicon
face
James, there is a history in managing Piclist ? You are the THIRD Admin
like Ludovic XV was a king ?
Sorry for this question but who are the others ?
Vasile

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\02\26@043637 by James Newton

face picon face
The current (active) list admins, in order of appearance are:
Jory, who started the list and who provides us with the list server.
Mark, who understands and solves most problems related to members
subscriptions
James, (me) who polices the list and is webmaster of the piclist.com site.
Mike, who manages out account on the list server. Which is no small thing.
The list server is a monster.

You see me most often because I police the list (handle content, personality
issues... moderator if you like) and do the web site. I can't do any of that
with out the other guys.

The "admin #3" is a reminder (to me and to others) of that fact. I came
around after Mark and I recruited Mike.

James Newton, PICList Admin #3 (and darn proud to be a part of it)
RemoveMEjamesnewtonspamTakeThisOuTpiclist.com
1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com


{Original Message removed}


'[PIC] PICLIST admin stuff'
2008\07\12@192657 by Dan Smith
face picon face
I'd like to welcome Bob Blick and Russell to the admin team as list
moderators :-)

We've set up another topic tag called [TECH] which Russell has agreed
to police (along with [OT]).  Bob will be helping to police the [PIC]
and [EE] tags.  This will allow us to refocus some of the other tags.

** Please note that if you want to receive [TECH] posts and you don't
receive the daily digest version of the Piclist, you will have to
visit <http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist> and opt in. **

The new topic definitions effective immediately are:

[PIC]
Should be at the start of the subject line for most postings to the
PICList. This says that a PIC microcontroller (or clone) is directly
involved, connected or the entire subject of the post. Any person who
works with PICs would want to read it...

[SX]
Items specific to the Scenix SX microcontrollers

[AVR]
Items specific to the Atmel AVR microcontrollers

[ARM]
Items specific to ARM microcontrollers

[EE]
The doing of Electrical/Electronic Engineering that you can do
yourself. Power stations go into TECH unless it's a power station that
you can build. So too eg Magnetohydrodynamics etc. Windmill
alternators and related systems and alternate energy at the doing
level go into EE. Windfarms into TECH. etc

[TECH]
About technology, Engineering other than EE, science hard stuff. NOT
the philosophy of science in any depth. New discoveries in QM,
cosmology etc are fine. Almost anything that gets a long thread that
diverges can probably evolve into OT once people know it exists. Those
who care can follow it. eg Global Warming is TECH at the latest
discoveries level but not discussions of "An inconvenient truth" or
"The great global warming swindle" etc. This may rate an occasional
mention in TECH but long ramblings can go to OT.

[BUY]
People looking for parts, equipment, or consultants will use this topic.

[AD]
This is for advertisements of a commercial product or service. Don't
spam, do post [AD]!

[OT]
This label is for posts that are completely off the topic of
engineering/technology. The only things we don't ever want to see are
religious/metaphysical, sex, hate, or political messages.

Hopefully, these definitions are pretty clear, but if you have any
questions please ask away and the admin team will do our best to
answer :-)

Dan

2008\07\12@211240 by Dr Skip

picon face
The EE and TECH division are not clear, at least to me. I suggest a long list,
based on the topic headings recently  written (generalized a little perhaps)
over the last few months and post an example list. Since this topic division
obsession tends to create near-online-violence at times, I fear posting unless
there are concrete examples. My Venn diagram of tech and EE overlap quite a bit.

Specifically, what EE topics are TECH and what PC topics go where? Software?
CAD software Q's? Backup software Q's? Engineering software suggestions?
Writing software vs using software? USB design? USB software? USB usage? You
get the idea...


Dan Smith wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\07\12@215555 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
It's actually pretty easy. If it's something I'd object to seeing in
[EE], then it goes in [TECH]

That was supposed to get a chuckle, c'mon!

I don't particularly enjoy seeing "using PC software" posts. Some of
them are clearly [EE] though, such as CAD footprints and file formats
for PC board houses. Backup software and "Fedora 9 first impression" are
pretty far from [EE] and bore me intensely and probably Russell too.
That's what Linux mailing lists are for.

Don't try to out-think it, we will see how it shakes out, and probably
flesh out the guidelines as the days and weeks progress.

Cheerful regards,

Bob


Dr Skip wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\07\12@222100 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
I'll leave this in PIC as Dan started it there and it seems
appropriate that all see it. No doubt future fine tuning of
the OT/TECH/EE divide can be posted on a non-PIC tag.

{Quote hidden}

There will be no violence in [TECH] !!!! :-).
I suggest that you post any EE/TECH uncertain material in
[TECH] and we see what evolves. If something seems to belong
in EE I'll suggest accordingly and we'll see what Bob and co
decide.

At the EE end of TECH there will be no reason for any
'violence'. Anything that strays from EE into TECH will be
most welcome (as I perceive what it's all about) but may be
gently returned to its true home if it seems in the
interests of the majority to have it happen.

At the bottom end OT/TECH it may get a tiny bit rougher but
only marginally so. As I see it (and while I am now named as
an admin (moderator?) I don't see myself largely doing more
than acting as a guiding hand) anything with a GENUINELY
technical content can get at least a start in TECH. Anything
that gets long and wandering or controversial can be ushered
gently into OT. Examples that may go that way include
Cosmology, Global Warming, possibly (possibly) even
Evolution/Intelligent Design. I say 'possibly' for the
latter as, while the subject SHOULD be able to be discussed
rationally and logically, this is almost never what happens,
so if any flame appears then it's off to OT with it.

> Specifically, what EE topics are TECH and what PC topics
> go where?
> CAD software Q's? Backup software Q's? Engineering
> software suggestions?
> Writing software vs using software? USB design? USB
> software? USB usage? You
> get the idea...

IMHO:
I'd say most of that is TECH. I'd be happy for eg Bob to
indicate otherwise.

TECH
CAD software Q's?
Backup software Q's?
Engineering software suggestions?
Writing software vs using software?

EE                   USB design?
EE probably    USB software?
???                   USB usage?



               Russell


2008\07\12@222534 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
> It's actually pretty easy. If it's something I'd object to
> seeing in
> [EE], then it goes in [TECH]

Or that I object to :-).
I'm as keen as Bob to see a good EE list now that we have
the capability.

> That was supposed to get a chuckle, c'mon!

Chuckle.


       Russell


2008\07\12@232318 by Jinx

face picon face
> Specifically, what EE topics are TECH and what PC topics go where?
> CAD software Q's? Backup software Q's? Engineering software
> suggestions? Writing software vs using software? USB design? USB
> software? USB usage? You get the idea...
>
> IMHO:
> I'd say most of that is TECH. I'd be happy for eg Bob to
> indicate otherwise.

I'd suggest that anything to do with Eagle for example would be [EE],
and anything CAD that helps make better PCBs for eg PICs to go on,
or enclosures, machining, milling etc

Not directly related to PICs, soldering, components, etc - [TECH]. If
there is or could be a schematic - [EE]

USB at the electrical level - [EE] or [PIC]. USB as a back-up strategy
for a PC - [TECH]. Unless maybe it's got a PIC in it or it's an [EE] hack
for example, then it could get 'promoted'

Software - hmmm. Directly related to better engineering - [EE]. Win or
Linux as general OS's IMO don't qualify as [EE]. A particular part of
an OS might be appropriate in [EE] or even [PIC], for example specific
s/w, drivers, interfacing (as per USB above), that sort of thing. But
otherwise, probably [TECH]

2008\07\12@235011 by Dr Skip

picon face
This would mean the latest "parallel USB" thread would have moved through Ee,
then tech, then pic... Is that the intent? Even through its evolution, it still
had tie-back to the original idea, which was generally, pulling power from a
second port (is it legal, how do you do it, why you do it, can a pic do it).

I found the evolution informative, and the peripheral discussion (not to be
confused with discussions of peripherals ;) very enlightening. It all involved
the same genesis, and from a knowledge management perspective, should probably
stay together. This way, it gets split up as some sort of set of database
entries, without any relations. And with variations in subscriptions to the
various topics, participation would get fragmented.

Perhaps we stay in the original group, even if content evolves? Even though
that wasn't mentioned.



Jinx wrote:
>
> USB at the electrical level - [EE] or [PIC]. USB as a back-up strategy
> for a PC - [TECH]. Unless maybe it's got a PIC in it or it's an [EE] hack
> for example, then it could get 'promoted'
>

2008\07\13@002236 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face


Dr Skip wrote:
> This would mean the latest "parallel USB" thread would have moved through Ee,
> then tech, then pic... Is that the intent? Even through its evolution

The intent is to keep the quality of the posts high, and allow people to
opt-out of content they don't want.

If you keep the quality high, there won't be complaints about "thread
(de)evolution".

All you have to do is draw parallels in your mind to the [PIC] tag and
how it is not a dumping ground for random thoughts or chit-chat.

Let's wrap this up or take it [OT], OK? This doesn't belong under the
[PIC] tag any more. Thanks.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

2008\07\13@002833 by Forrest W. Christian

flavicon
face
Let me suggest a better clarification:  At least in my mind... although
I'm obviously not the moderator:

If one is building or designing an *electronic circuit* - from concept
through design and production (where applicable), then questions related
to this operation, in my mind belongs in [EE].  That is, it has to do
with the actual engineering.   Electronics CAD/CAM would be [EE],
circuit board design would be [EE], soldering techniques would be [EE],
selection of components would be [EE] and so on.    Or perhaps, put
another way, would this topic be something that an EE would either need
to know, or should know, or has to do to make a circuit or electronic
product work.   I would think of [EE] as the generic workhorse of the
piclist, where people can ask an electronics-related question, and get
an answer.

[PIC], [AVR], etc are more strict interpretations of [EE]... that is,
[EE] to do with a pic or avr processor.  

If the topic does not relate to the actual building or design of an
*electronic circuit*, then this is either [TECH] or [OT].   I have
little desire to try to help define the line between [TECH] and [OT] so
I won't.   Instead, here are a few things I would expect people might
think were EE, but in my mind weren't:  

Not EE: New technology developments, even if they are electronics
related:  X releasing a new processor, Y having some breakthrough which
will affect electronics, etc..  
Not EE: General world news and events
Not EE: Global warming
Not EE: Space events, even that which is electronics related (unless you
are building a satellite or similar)
Not EE: Solar systems, except specific solar system projects (someone
trying to build a charger is [EE], news story about someone building a
new solar charger, not EE).

And perhaps a few grey areas the other way:

[EE] : Sources of Enclosures
[EE] : Adhesives for electronics

And so on...

-forrest

2008\07\13@010619 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
> I'd suggest that anything to do with Eagle for example
> would be [EE],
> and anything CAD that helps make better PCBs for eg PICs
> to go on,
> or enclosures, machining, milling etc

OK

> Not directly related to PICs, soldering, components, etc -
> [TECH]. If
> there is or could be a schematic - [EE]

Um.
I went to disagree and then realised that the statement was
ambiguous.
If you mean "not releated to any of ..." then OK.

> USB at the electrical level - [EE] or [PIC]. USB as a
> back-up strategy
> for a PC - [TECH]. Unless maybe it's got a PIC in it or
> it's an [EE] hack
> for example, then it could get 'promoted'

Yes. A bit vague. It will self clarify.
If in doubt throw into EE and Bob will rule on it ;-).

> Software - hmmm. Directly related to better engineering -
> [EE]. Win or
> Linux as general OS's IMO don't qualify as [EE]. A
> particular part of
> an OS might be appropriate in [EE] or even [PIC], for
> example specific
> s/w, drivers, interfacing (as per USB above), that sort of
> thing. But
> otherwise, probably [TECH]

Largely agree.


   R

2008\07\13@011700 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
"Forrest W. Christian" said

> Let me suggest a better clarification:
... snip ...

That whole list of examples looked quite good.
Worth looking at as a guide for anyone feeling bemused.

I was amused to note that

> Not EE: Space events, even that which is electronics
> related (unless you
> are building a satellite or similar)

Meant that probably only Alan Pearce can post on satellites
in [EE].



       R

2008\07\13@033344 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 9:55 AM, Bob Blick <bobblickEraseMEspam.....ftml.net> wrote:
> I don't particularly enjoy seeing "using PC software" posts. Some of
> them are clearly [EE] though, such as CAD footprints and file formats
> for PC board houses. Backup software and "Fedora 9 first impression" are
> pretty far from [EE] and bore me intensely and probably Russell too.
> That's what Linux mailing lists are for.

So at least it will be qualified as [OT], right?

I will continue to opt in [EE] and [OT] thanks to the creation of [TECH]
which I would not opt in.

Xiaofan

2008\07\13@044814 by Dan Smith

face picon face
With the recent changes to the list, I thought it would be good to
clarify who the members of the admin team are :-)

In no particular order,

Josh Koffman
Herbert Graaf
Alexandre Guimarães
Mauricio Jancic
Bob Blick
Russell McMahon
Dan Smith

If you need to contact us, please email EraseMEpiclist-ownerspammit.edu and your
email will be distributed to the whole team.  With us being spread
around the globe, chances are at least one of us will be awake at any
one time!

Dan

2008\07\13@062922 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
>> I don't particularly enjoy seeing "using PC software"
>> posts. Some of
>> them are clearly [EE] though, such as CAD footprints and
>> file formats
>> for PC board houses. Backup software and "Fedora 9 first
>> impression" are
>> pretty far from [EE] and bore me intensely and probably
>> Russell too.
>> That's what Linux mailing lists are for.

> So at least it will be qualified as [OT], right?

Maybe not.

They will be welcome in TECH to start and we will see what
people think once the new "sub community" establishes. Just
because something bores me doesn't mean it doesn't belong
:-).

Tag subscription choices are of course up to each member
*BUT* if you get EE and OT now then it will be a really
really really really good idea [tm] to subscribe to TECH for
a while to see how things work out. Failing to do this may
leave you less informed than you wish to be. Your choice &
YMMV.


           Russell


2008\07\13@064259 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 6:25 PM, Apptech <RemoveMEapptechEraseMEspamEraseMEparadise.net.nz> wrote:
>>> I don't particularly enjoy seeing "using PC software"
>>> posts. Some of
>>> them are clearly [EE] though, such as CAD footprints and
>>> file formats
>>> for PC board houses. Backup software and "Fedora 9 first
>>> impression" are
>>> pretty far from [EE] and bore me intensely and probably
>>> Russell too.
>>> That's what Linux mailing lists are for.
>
>> So at least it will be qualified as [OT], right?
>
> Maybe not.
>

That is a strange assertion. But since you are now part of
the admin team, I will respect that decision. And I will
just turn off [OT] now that it is of little use to me. [PIC]
and [EE] should be good enough for me.

Xiaofan

2008\07\13@082825 by olin piclist

face picon face
Dr Skip wrote:
> The EE and TECH division are not clear, at least to me.

Me neither.  I'm rather confused about EE and the purpose of making a
distinction between what you can do yourself versus not.  At some point,
*somebody* is doing all the things that are being done worldwide.  So I can
talk about controlling a 30A relay for a safety shutoff to my home table
saw, but not how a PIC can control a contactor that protects a 750KV power
line?  This doesn't make any sense, especially if I happen to be working on
a PIC controlled contactor to protect a 750KV power line (which I'm not,
this is just a example).  It seems to me the real purpose is to allow
discussion of the things around your PIC even though it's not about the PIC
itself.

I suggest we get rid of EE (since at various times it's been called
Electrical Engineering, then the vague Everything Engineering, and now I'm
not sure what) and replace it with EMB for EmBedded Systems.  This is for
scientific and engineering discussion of the things around your PIC.  If
you're doing a PIC project (or AVR or ARM, etc) and have questions about the
wider system it fits into, then this is where to ask.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\07\13@083027 by olin piclist

face picon face
Bob Blick wrote:
> Backup software and "Fedora 9 first impression"
> are
> pretty far from [EE] and bore me intensely and probably Russell too.
> That's what Linux mailing lists are for.

Hear, hear!  It's about time someone put a stop to that drivel.

********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\07\13@083226 by olin piclist

face picon face
Apptech wrote:
> I'll leave this in PIC as Dan started it there and it seems
> appropriate that all see it.

This brings up another issue I have with topics.  It's always awkward to
find a topic to talk about the list itself.  I suggest there be a topic
called LIST where those that care about how the PIClist is run can talk
about that.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\07\13@084315 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 8:30 PM, Olin Lathrop <RemoveMEolin_piclistspam_OUTspamKILLspamembedinc.com> wrote:
> I suggest we get rid of EE (since at various times it's been called
> Electrical Engineering, then the vague Everything Engineering, and now I'm
> not sure what) and replace it with EMB for EmBedded Systems.  This is for
> scientific and engineering discussion of the things around your PIC.  If
> you're doing a PIC project (or AVR or ARM, etc) and have questions about the
> wider system it fits into, then this is where to ask.
>

This is a good idea. Just redefine EE as Embedded System. EMB is not
as easy to remember as EE and we already has a EE tag.

Xiaofan

2008\07\13@084409 by Jinx

face picon face
> So I can talk about controlling a 30A relay for a safety shutoff to
> my home table saw, but not how a PIC can control a contactor
> that protects a 750KV power line?

Yes. It would be [PIC]

I see one difference between [EE] and [TECH] as that of scale. eg
if it doesn't fit on the (my) bench. You might discuss how to make an
anemometer for weather station with [PIC] or [EE], but a windfarm
would be [TECH]. It's of technical interest but probably not in the
scope of most engineers. If someone here did happen to be making
a windfarm or electric car, then it would be quite legitimate to talk
about the constructional details outside of [TECH]. But otherwise,
as a general concept or industry, in [TECH]

2008\07\13@113255 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face
Bob Blick wrote:
>
> Dr Skip wrote:
>> This would mean the latest "parallel USB" thread would have moved through Ee,
>> then tech, then pic... Is that the intent? Even through its evolution
>
> The intent is to keep the quality of the posts high, and allow people to
> opt-out of content they don't want.

Then why is this whole thread which has nothing to do with PIC's still
under [PIC]?  ;-) :-P  LOL!

Nate

2008\07\13@123454 by Gaston Gagnon

face
flavicon
face
Where is James?
Gaston

Dan Smith wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\07\13@162334 by Dennis Crawley

picon face
I think James said good bye from the mail controlling but not from the web
site.
It was more than 10 years of service for free.
I have to say thank to him for all his help.

Dennis

On Sunday, July 13, 2008 1:34 PM [GMT-3=CET],
Gaston Gagnon  wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2008\07\13@181423 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

>> ** Please note that if you want to receive [TECH] posts and you don't
>> receive the daily digest version of the Piclist, you will have to
>> visit <http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist> and opt  
>> in. **

Not quite; it looks like subscribers who had never turned on any  
filtering (ie "receive all topics") continue to receive all topics,  
including "tech"...

I think.  At least, I received the initial message without opt-in,  
and when I went to the piclist web page, that's how it looked to be...

BillW

2008\07\16@101754 by Mongol Herdsman

picon face
I propose to consider new [ASP/SQL] tag on this list.

Actually PIC based devices could serve as light web clients within
ASP.NET/MS SQL applications. This kicks off huge market. Hope MCHP
people will understand it not too late.

For example, your know, here in "Texas" sized Inner Mongolia we would
like to equip every camel with cheap Internet-over-GPRS enabled
PIC-based mobile to report to California based web server about the
current condition of the camel and its load.

The "data logger" software on the server would report in real time
about camel status, and would predict camel possible failure, so a
herdsman would receive warning SMS and could care of the situation in
timely manner.

We have a good number of camels roaming around the desert. So the
project seems to be quite big.

Some good/gold level PIC professionals are on the list to consult
with. And for ASP.NET/MS SQL part of the project we'd like to have
consultants on the list too to keep the development consistent.

So, again, why not new [ASP/SQL] tag on this list.

Thanks.

On 7/13/08, Dan Smith <RemoveMEgaloophKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\07\16@102802 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
Is camel load measured as a decimal value, where values over 1.00 mean
that loads are being deferred to a later time?

Cheerful regards,

Bob

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:17:31 +0300, "Mongol Herdsman"
<inner.mongolia.herdSTOPspamspamspam_OUTgmail.com> said:
{Quote hidden}

2008\07\16@110655 by Mongol Herdsman

picon face
On 7/16/08, Bob Blick <KILLspambobblickspamBeGonespamftml.net> wrote:
> Is camel load measured as a decimal value, where values over 1.00 mean
> that loads are being deferred to a later time?

A good question in fact. I consulted with our shaman. He waved a dead
fish (Moon is exactly in right phase now), established a direct
telepathic chanell to one famous gold consultant lost in cold swamps
on the edge of The World,  and received a message that we are not
restricted to PIC10F line and it would be better off to start with
PIC32 line, so we won't be limited to pack everything in one decimal
value.

Thanks for raising the important question, brother picster.

2008\07\16@113604 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:06:52 +0300, "Mongol Herdsman"
<EraseMEinner.mongolia.herdspamEraseMEgmail.com> said:
> On 7/16/08, Bob Blick <@spam@bobblick@spam@spamspam_OUTftml.net> wrote:
> > Is camel load measured as a decimal value, where values over 1.00 mean
> > that loads are being deferred to a later time?
>
> A good question in fact. I consulted with our shaman. He waved a dead
> fish (Moon is exactly in right phase now), established a direct
> telepathic chanell to one famous gold consultant lost in cold swamps
> on the edge of The World,  and received a message that we are not
> restricted to PIC10F line and it would be better off to start with
> PIC32 line, so we won't be limited to pack everything in one decimal
> value.
>
> Thanks for raising the important question, brother picster.
> --

2008\07\16@144652 by Cedric Chang

flavicon
face
As long as it is "open camel season" I would like to propose the
[theBigBangTheoryIsDeadLongLiveStangeGravitatationalEffectsTheory]  
tag.  This will reduce the amount of hot scented air that is produced  
by the PIClist.
cc


On Jul 16, 2008, at 9:35 AM, Bob Blick wrote:


On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:06:52 +0300, "Mongol Herdsman"
<spamBeGoneinner.mongolia.herdspamKILLspamgmail.com> said:
{Quote hidden}

> --

2008\07\16@145715 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face
Mongol Herdsman wrote:
> I propose to consider new [ASP/SQL] tag on this list.

I propose we consider a new [PONY] tag too, because we all want ponies!

(And yeah, I'm replying to yet another non-PIC posting under [PIC].  Sorry.)

Nate

2008\07\16@154510 by Mark Rages

face picon face
On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 1:57 PM, Nate Duehr <TakeThisOuTnate.....spamTakeThisOuTnatetech.com> wrote:
> Mongol Herdsman wrote:
>> I propose to consider new [ASP/SQL] tag on this list.
>
> I propose we consider a new [PONY] tag too, because we all want ponies!
>
> (And yeah, I'm replying to yet another non-PIC posting under [PIC].  Sorry.)
>

Maybe now is the time to implement my wished-for tag:

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.hardware.microcontrollers.pic/75234

Regards,
Mark
markrages@gmail
--
Mark Rages, Engineer
Midwest Telecine LLC
TakeThisOuTmarkragesKILLspamspamspammidwesttelecine.com

2008\07\16@160132 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
Note: this thread was getting too good to stop, but I had to move it OT
to maintain any shred of respectability.

I think we could do tagging without the need for official blessing with
a "plug-in" for the [OT] channel, basically a bitmask for all the
possible topic areas - and it could easily lengthen as new topics are
discovered, ie:

Subject: [OT]0804 iPhone 3G, does it blend?

0804 would decode to 0000100000000100 and would signify that it contains
two topic areas(don't ask me which two!)

Later we could always expand to 32 bit or even 64 bit as new subject
areas are refined.

All this without needing to modify the list settings or official
blessing!

Cheerful regards,

Bob



On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:45:04 -0500, "Mark Rages" <.....markragesspamRemoveMEgmail.com>
said:
{Quote hidden}

> --

2008\07\16@162715 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Jul 16, 2008, at 7:17 AM, Mongol Herdsman wrote:

> I propose to consider new [ASP/SQL] tag on this list.
>
There is, or should be, a law about creating new "topics" in a  
forum.  You SPLIT existing topics when some piece of discussion  
starts to take up a lot of time and messages, and some people start  
to complain about the traffic.  You DO NOT add additional topics just  
because you think it is "logical" to do so, or because you hope to  
"stimulate" discussion in a new topic; this just leads to many unused  
topics (you can see this on LOTS of forums...)

So [TECH] exists of complaints about excessive "random" discussions  
in [EE]; I think of it as the Russel topic :-)  It's probably the  
most sensible split in ages. [ARM] was probably premature, and while  
[AVR] and [SX] seemed appropriate at the time, traffic hasn't  
sustained them :-(

Feel free to start you ASP/SQL discussion in [EE], or [TECH], and  
we'll all see how it goes...

BillW

2008\07\16@171930 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
Quoting Cedric Chang <TakeThisOuTccspamspamnope9.com>:

> As long as it is "open camel season" I would like to propose the
> [theBigBangTheoryIsDeadLongLiveStangeGravitatationalEffectsTheory]
> tag.  This will reduce the amount of hot scented air that is produced
> by the PIClist.
> cc

I can highly recommend this fine "O'Reilly" shamanic help guide:

http://www.oreillymaker.com/link/18675/pic-debugging/

;-)

{Quote hidden}

>> --

2008\07\16@172140 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face
I always found this thing called a Subject Line to be quite useful in
determining which whole threads just get deleted without even reading
them.

Never turned any tags on/off at all.  Couldn't care less about them,
other than TRYING to post under the correct one(s).

Hard to remember to do that too, because PICLIST is the only list I've
been on since the modem-BBS days, where something in the subject line
actually changes who/what gets received at the far end.

:-)

Nate

2008\07\16@172342 by Mongol Herdsman

picon face
On 7/16/08, William Chops Westfield <@spam@westfwRemoveMEspamEraseMEmac.com> wrote:
> Feel free to start you ASP/SQL discussion in [EE], or [TECH],
> and we'll all see how it goes...

I started the discussion with my post. The idea is to consider a cheap
PIC based device as a client in ASP.NET/SQL app with asynchronous
communication between a client and a server. It requires some
out-of-box style of thinking to realize the scale of the idea. Most
probably Microsoft will employ it.

EE gurus seem not to be able to grasp the value of the system, say MS
public  ASP.NET/SQL server + powerful database/statistic software on
the server and cheap client PIC based hardware to aquire data. It's
easier for gurus to blame on MS afterwards for monopolizing
everything, than to make a little effort to think out-of-box now.

2008\07\16@173543 by olin piclist

face picon face
Mongol Herdsman wrote:
> The idea is to consider a cheap
> PIC based device as a client in ASP.NET/SQL app with asynchronous
> communication between a client and a server.

Huh?  So the PIC is going to be a client, but I guess you mean it will be
talking to a remote server that is serving SQL and somehow has something to
do with ASP?  All that is layered on TCP, which PICs can do.  So get a big
18F and start writing the code, although it's not at all clear exactly what
this PIC is supposed to accomplish once it talks to this remote server.

What exactly is your question?


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\07\16@184918 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
Dear Mongrel,

> I started the discussion with my post.

Indeed you did.
But now your fun is done (hopefully) how about moving to OT
as Bob suggests.
Fun is fun but tags are tags and while a bit of noise in PIC
is OK ...

Hmmm. Where's the mailman manual ...


       Russell

2008\07\16@230859 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Spehro Pefhany wrote:
> I can highly recommend this fine "O'Reilly" shamanic help guide:
>
> http://www.oreillymaker.com/link/18675/pic-debugging/
>
> ;-)

Spehro, you suck!  It took me about five minutes to realize why I can't find
the book on Amazon or any other bookstore.

Olin wrote a book on computer graphics a while back:
http://tinyurl.com/6hgx29

Vitaliy

2008\07\17@091901 by Rolf

face picon face
That has to be the best reference work I have seen in a while. The way
it is compiled has me chortling still. What a good read.

Thanks for making my day.

Rolf

Spehro Pefhany wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\07\18@193302 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face
Rolf wrote:
> That has to be the best reference work I have seen in a while. The way
> it is compiled has me chortling still. What a good read.
>
> Thanks for making my day.

If you enjoyed that one, they've recently added a few new books that you
might also enjoy.

(We had a little "session" of book writing at work today.)

www.oreillymaker.com/link/18681/video-conference/
www.oreillymaker.com/link/18682/service-contracts/
http://www.oreillymaker.com/link/18754/service-providers/

Nate


'[OT] PICLIST admin stuff'
2008\08\18@145151 by Dario Greggio
face picon face
Vitaliy wrote:

> Olin wrote a book on computer graphics a while back:
> http://tinyurl.com/6hgx29

wow , I did not know that :)

congratulations. I only wrote some teenage-like novels... !

--
Ciao, Dario


'Piclist admin warning'
2010\05\16@185402 by Russell McMahon
face picon face
> This is why I asked for a specific reference to what you objected to.

I haven't seen that email, I think.

It it is also what I said  thought was a good idea.
There was substantially more than what you refer to there. It would be
useful for Bob to be specific.



     Russell

2010\05\17@154859 by Vitaliy

face
flavicon
face
Is this one of those messages that was supposed to be private?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Russell McMahon" <apptechnzspamBeGonespamgmail.com>
To: "Olin Lathrop" <RemoveMEolin_piclist@spam@spamspamBeGoneembedinc.com>; "Microcontroller discussion
list - Public." <.....piclist@spam@spamEraseMEmit.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 15:53
Subject: Re: Piclist admin warning


>> This is why I asked for a specific reference to what you objected to.
>
> I haven't seen that email, I think.
>
> It it is also what I said  thought was a good idea.
> There was substantially more than what you refer to there. It would be
> useful for Bob to be specific.


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