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'[OT]: global problems'
2001\07\31@113457 by Douglas Butler

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Topic changed to separate the joy of a new baby from the gloom of our
impending global demise.

What really scared me was a web survey on an engineering site a few
weeks ago.  The results were that 30+% of respondents (presumably
engineers) thought global warming was exaggerated and not a problem that
needed action yet.  These are not politicians or the great uneducated
masses, these are the people who are going to have to dig us out of this
hole we are in!

Sherpa Doug

{Quote hidden}

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2001\07\31@134944 by Douglas Butler

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When they talk about opening up the "vast" oil reserves or the Arctic
Wildlife Refuge, which will only be a six month supply, it sounds like
an act of desperation to me.

Finding more oil is only a part of the problem.  Global warming is the
flip side.  The only answer I see is fewer people, less energy
consumption per person, or both.  George Bush is not willing to accept
either of those answers.

Sherpa Doug

> {Original Message removed}

2001\07\31@142609 by Jim

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This is across the line.

    "When they talk about opening up the "vast" oil
     reserves or the Arctic Wildlife Refuge, which will
    only be a six month supply, it sounds like an act
    of desperation to me."

" ..a six month supply.."?

I see our *news media* (North American communists)
have been effective YET AGAIN with more hyperbole ...

Jim


----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Butler" <spam_OUTdbutlerTakeThisOuTspamIMETRIX.COM>
To: <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: global problems


When they talk about opening up the "vast" oil reserves or the Arctic
Wildlife Refuge, which will only be a six month supply, it sounds like
an act of desperation to me.

Finding more oil is only a part of the problem.  Global warming is the
flip side.  The only answer I see is fewer people, less energy
consumption per person, or both.  George Bush is not willing to accept
either of those answers.

Sherpa Doug

> {Original Message removed}

2001\07\31@143036 by Jim

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    "Global warming is the flip side. "

A gross assumption NOT supported by all science
OR scientists, including some Greens this last year
who have come to their better senses  ...

Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Butler" <dbutlerspamKILLspamIMETRIX.COM>
To: <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: global problems


When they talk about opening up the "vast" oil reserves or the Arctic
Wildlife Refuge, which will only be a six month supply, it sounds like
an act of desperation to me.

Finding more oil is only a part of the problem.  Global warming is the
flip side.  The only answer I see is fewer people, less energy
consumption per person, or both.  George Bush is not willing to accept
either of those answers.

Sherpa Doug

> {Original Message removed}

2001\07\31@145252 by Richard W Hinebaugh

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I agree, Jim, a gross assumption and media hype.

RICH HINEBAUGH
ECAT (ELECTRONIC ASSEMBLY AND TEST) COST ENGINEER
OUTSOURCED STORAGE & COST ENGINEERING
PHONE 507-253-3470,TIE LINE 553-3470,FAX 507-253-2148
3055 41st ST NW
DEPT. 3A6,BLDG 664-1,E103
ROCHESTER,MN  55901
EMAIL: EraseMErichyspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTus.ibm.com
What do you want to see when you look back on your life?



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    "Global warming is the flip side. "

A gross assumption NOT supported by all science
OR scientists, including some Greens this last year
who have come to their better senses  ...

Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Butler" <@spam@dbutlerKILLspamspamIMETRIX.COM>
To: <KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: global problems


When they talk about opening up the "vast" oil reserves or the Arctic
Wildlife Refuge, which will only be a six month supply, it sounds like
an act of desperation to me.

Finding more oil is only a part of the problem.  Global warming is the
flip side.  The only answer I see is fewer people, less energy
consumption per person, or both.  George Bush is not willing to accept
either of those answers.

Sherpa Doug

> {Original Message removed}

2001\07\31@171404 by Jeff DeMaagd

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----- Original Message -----
From: Jim <RemoveMEjvpollTakeThisOuTspamDALLAS.NET>


>      "Global warming is the flip side. "
>
> A gross assumption NOT supported by all science
> OR scientists, including some Greens this last year
> who have come to their better senses  ...

Which ones?  Care to name a few?

Jeff

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2001\07\31@213728 by Russell McMahon

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>      "Global warming is the flip side. "
>
> A gross assumption NOT supported by all science
> OR scientists, including some Greens this last year
> who have come to their better senses  ...


Global warming (GW) is indeed an unproven hypothesis (as all scientific
hypotheses must be).
Available data indicates that past relatively short term variations in
global temperature have occurred which are substantially greater than what
we may be seeing now. Available data suggests that available data on the
current trends may be inconclusive :-).

There are however strong indications that our actions MAY be a major factor
in significant GW trends.
Those who claim that the idea that "GW is a totally man made phenomena" is
an established fact which we can certainly redress are deluded and in SOME
cases self serving.

HOWEVER

Those who would reject the hypothesis outright and act as if we can proceed
unchecked until we know more are equally or more deluded and in MANY cases
self serving. Those who would err on the side of protecting the world
unnecessarily are, I feel, to be preferred to those who would err on the
side of destroying the world unnecessarily. Some seem to disagree.

The history of the world to date (with or without elsewhere mentioned
communists being involved :-) ) suggests that the self interested destroyers
are all too often successful in their aims.  The main difference is that the
damage we can do by being wrong is much larger now than in ages past. (Be it
with nuclear weapons, nuclear power, global warming, genetic engineering or
whatever).(Of these I feel that GE is the currently most certain to cause
major catastrophe in the medium term, but that's another story).



regards

                   Russell McMahon

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2001\07\31@221030 by Dale Botkin

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On Tue, 31 Jul 2001, Jeff DeMaagd wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dale Botkin <spamBeGonedalespamBeGonespamBOTKIN.ORG>
>
>
> > In grade school we learned that the world's supply of oil would run out
> > before 2000 and we'd all be driving solar powered cars.  Of course the
> > lunar colonies would provide some relief, but there would also be
> > overpopultion to te point we'd all live in high-rise apartments.
>
> > No saying there's not a problem, just pointing out that predicting the
> > future by extrapolating from the past doesn't always work the way you
> > might think.
>
> I don't think it's too far off to expect a dry-up in 50 years though and
> plan ahead, as obviously fossil fuels are being consumed faster than nature
> can make it.  From what I've read, the last significant oil discovery was in
> the 70's, and consumption is increasing.  A lot of oil producers claim to be
> running pretty close to capacity as it is.  Drilling more fields is only a
> band-aid solution at best.

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree.  People need to start drastically reducing the
amount of non-renewable fuel they use, and I include myself.  I'd love to
put up a wind generator and some solar panels, but until I can I'll
content myself with NOT buying a 6-ton SUV and NOT driving a couple
hundred miles every weekend to enjoy the countryside I'm helping to
eradicate.

I'd like to see about a 90% reduction in the oil we import, and some
serious effort directed to the large scale developmetn of other energy
sources.  About 35 or so miles from me are a pair of 600KWH wind
generators...  I think they're absolutely beautiful, and would like to see
a hundred more just like them.  I'd even pay more for electricity IF I
could know it came from those generators AND that they were reducing the
output from one coal-fired plant to offset.  Too bad it will probably
never happen.


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On my desk I have a workstation...

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2001\07\31@221836 by Mike Kendall

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In regards to 10,12, 16 people families, there is an interesting link
regarding Darwinian theory on the Cal Tech website and survival of the
quickest reproducing species vs. the quickest to adapt. The global problems
are big, that is for sure.  They say 50yrs (or less) for the crude oil with
yearly consumption around 24billion barrels and annual increases of 3%
(every year there are less water buffalos out there plowing rice fields)
population doubling in less than 50 years and predicted max of 12 to 16
billion, no more. I seem to remember current population at 6 billion or so.
Sustainable populations have many variables such as natural resources. Those
episodes of Star Trek with all diseases cured turned out to be rubbish, just
like the mathemitician who was pushing the chaos theory in the book Jurassic
Park would have said. All of these variables are extremely complicated to
talk about in 1 paragraph anyways.  There will most definitely be a shift in
life styles at the very least...but there is nothing new about that as
lifestyles have been dramatically shifting in less than a lifetime for some
time now.  It really gets down to responsible living.  There will always be
responsible people interlaced with people who have lived or are living
irresponsibly and making irresponsible/ignorant decisions.  The true unsung
heroes are the ones behind the 80% decrease in the cost of wind generated
electricity in the last decade, fuel cells, advanced recycling processes,
etc.  The one really good thing Jimmy Carter did with his push for
incentives on alternative energy.  Check out a website http://www.homepower.com the
periodical is free viewing with adobe acrobat and they have archived
articles.  Then there is the religious aspect.  It's all planned out anyways
isn't it?  but that is no excuse for not taking care of your children and
their future children.  No-one knows for sure how much longer we will be
having to habitate the planet, so it's wise to not forget that.  They found
that most people  are  willing to pay  extra money  for a mix of green and
traditional electricity.  I'm quite shocked that as a voter, I cannot really
go out to a poll and make the a difference by voting for more tax dollars to
be spent on energy issues.   If government was to spend more time educating
people on these issues, the result would most likely be some responsible
political action in the  polls.  Almost like they are counting on it being
solved in the future and they think it's better to not get too many people
riled up about it. As for all the problems in the middle east, they would
have not even begun if we hadn't given them so much of our money in the
first place for precious oil so they can spend it on weapons to get back at
their enemies and oil consuming countries selling weapons to them to
maintain "stability".
Regards,
Mike
{Original Message removed}

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