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'[OT]: detecting emergency vehicles. Illeal? Hardly'
2004\06\15@153529 by Robert Rolf

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How's that? You are emmitting within the allowed power levels in a band
which allows these emissions.

Chapter and verse please...
R

Shawn Wilton wrote:
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2004\06\15@153905 by Shawn Wilton

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If you're licensed for it, sure.  Why do you think a radar gun operator
is required to be licensed by the FCC to operate said equipment?



Robert Rolf wrote:

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2004\06\15@154318 by David VanHorn

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At 12:39 PM 6/15/2004 -0700, Shawn Wilton wrote:

>If you're licensed for it, sure.  Why do you think a radar gun operator
>is required to be licensed by the FCC to operate said equipment?

Because it's operating at a higher power.

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2004\06\15@154733 by Shawn Wilton

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Last time I checked you were not allowed to transmit at the same band as
radar, and lidar.  I may have to double check that though.  Especially
if enough people tell me I'm full of sh*t.  ;-)

-Shawn


David VanHorn wrote:

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2004\06\15@163102 by Dave Tweed
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Robert Rolf <spam_OUTRobert.RolfTakeThisOuTspamUALBERTA.CA> wrote:
> Shawn Wilton wrote:
> > Dwayne Reid wrote:
> > > Do a web search for "trolling for tailgates".  What you are
> > > describing is on-going serious fun for a few mental midgets on
> > > American highways.
> >
> > It's also quite illegal.
>
> How's that? You are emmitting within the allowed power levels in a band
> which allows these emissions.

I know of no band where emissions to deliberately cause interference or
"for no reason at all" are allowed. Even the ISM bands have restrictions.

-- Dave Tweed

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2004\06\15@172503 by David VanHorn

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At 12:48 PM 6/15/2004 -0700, Shawn Wilton wrote:

>Last time I checked you were not allowed to transmit at the same band as
>radar, and lidar.  I may have to double check that though.  Especially
>if enough people tell me I'm full of sh*t.  ;-)

Police X band is at 10.525, the ham band is right next door 10.0 to 10.5GHz  The K band is similar.

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2004\06\15@173032 by Shawn Wilton

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Ah yes.  My gf's dad nailed a cop in court because the ham in his
vehicle was throwing off the radar to such a degree that when they
pointed it at his car, it read 60 mph sitting still.  :-)

Fun fun.





David VanHorn wrote:
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2004\06\15@180432 by Robert Rolf

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Shawn Wilton wrote:
>
> Ah yes.  My gf's dad nailed a cop in court because the ham in his
> vehicle was throwing off the radar to such a degree that when they
> pointed it at his car, it read 60 mph sitting still.  :-)


Or it was measuring the frequency of the fan blades in the car.
Something near 1kHz if memory serves.

Not too many hams have X band trancievers in their cars since
you need a dish/horn to get any kind of range, so mobile work is tricky.

R

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2004\06\15@181052 by Shawn Wilton

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No, it was his ham.  How or why it happened I don't know.  I'm still
learning RF.  But he's beaten the cops so many times and caused them so
much in fines (hundreds of 1000's), that they don't harass him anymore,
period.

Next time I see him I'll get the specs on the story and post.


-Shawn



Robert Rolf wrote:

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2004\06\15@184858 by Russell McMahon

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> Last time I checked you were not allowed to transmit at the same band as
> radar, and lidar.  I may have to double check that though.  Especially
> if enough people tell me I'm full of sh*t.  ;-)

Google will help you form your own opinion on that :-)

       Russell McMahon

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2004\06\15@191420 by hilip Stortz

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bull!  you're operating at a power high enough to actually interfere
with radar guns in that case, which is illegal, and you are actually
going to be interfering with the use of speed guns!  you'll actually be
making it harder to catch people as the signal levels will have to be
comparable or higher than the signal strength of a reflected signal from
a speed gun pointed at a vehicle.

yes, you will actually be obstructing justice, and frankly you deserve
to be charged for the offense, as a felony!  there are gadgets that
claim to "jam" radar guns and that are legal, because they work at too
low a power to actually work, those that actually do work are illegal
because of the power level and because it's an obstruction of justice.
manufacturers who fit into the second class are quickly arrested and get
to live in a federal prison, those that make bogus equipment are
tolerated, even though it's fraud (because the device doesn't work)
because those in power think it's funny to watch speeders get ripped off
and have a false sense of security.  note that the devices that do not
work actually encourage speeding, and yet law enforcement chooses not to
arrest the manufacturer and seller who are committing fraud and making
the roads more dangerous, because they are also increasing the
governments income from speeding tickets.  corruption at it's finest.
it makes the roads more dangerous, and makes people money, but it makes
"the right" people money so the fraud is usually allowed.

the same arguments about obstruction of justice and encouraging rather
than stopping speeders also apply to lasers used to fool laser speed
guns, not to mention the potential injury threat depending on the
operator not knowing what they are doing and using to powerful a laser.
even if it's relatively low power like in a laser speed gun, do you
think it's safe to look right at?  do you suppose a laser speed gun is
safe to look right at from close range, like if you're looking at it?
what do you suppose happens when somebody's kid finds your laser box on
the side of the road and takes it home and stares at it or takes it
apart, or plays with it and accidentally turns up the laser power?
blindness, that's what happens, or at least some vision damage, even if
it's "only" a permanent blind spot, which they may be too afraid to tell
their parents about, and then they get a drivers license even though
they have an undiagnosed vision problem, now that's safety!

David VanHorn wrote:
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2004\06\15@193205 by hilip Stortz

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perhaps, but if you cause interference, it's illegal, especially if it's
deliberate.  also most of the current radar detectors have dsp software
to distinguish between static sources and speed guns based on modulation
characteristics etc.  now deliberately modulating a signal to fool them
would definitely be illegal, if not actually enforced.  still obnoxious
as hell either way, and you will still be interfering with speed guns
which can only detect the strongest signal.  you would likely be
blinding the speed guns when used in the same area.

David VanHorn wrote:
>
> At 12:48 PM 6/15/2004 -0700, Shawn Wilton wrote:
>
> >Last time I checked you were not allowed to transmit at the same band as
> >radar, and lidar.  I may have to double check that though.  Especially
> >if enough people tell me I'm full of sh*t.  ;-)
>
> Police X band is at 10.525, the ham band is right next door 10.0 to 10.5GHz  The K band is similar.
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2004\06\15@205752 by David VanHorn

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At 05:31 PM 6/15/2004 -0600, Philip Stortz wrote:

>perhaps, but if you cause interference, it's illegal, especially if it's
>deliberate.

If my licensed part 97 operations cause your part 15 toy to go haywire, that's your problem. Read the regs, especially that part on the part 15 plate about "and must accept any interference, including that which may cause undesired operation".

>  now deliberately modulating a signal to fool them
>would definitely be illegal, if not actually enforced.

OTOH I can send video and sound (not music) all day long through my part 97 microwave beacon.  I can also key it for a CW contact.

> still obnoxious
>as hell either way, and you will still be interfering with speed guns
>which can only detect the strongest signal.  you would likely be
>blinding the speed guns when used in the same area.

Darn.

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2004\06\15@210207 by David VanHorn

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At 05:14 PM 6/15/2004 -0600, Philip Stortz wrote:

>bull!  you're operating at a power high enough to actually interfere
>with radar guns in that case, which is illegal, and you are actually
>going to be interfering with the use of speed guns!

If only you'd bottom post and inline quote, so we know what you're ranting about, specifically.

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2004\06\15@224819 by hilip Stortz

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yeah, if you're doing something useful in some classes you can mess up
the lesser classes like part 15 toys, but speed guns are probably not
considered part 15 toys.  as far as deliberately messing things up with
no other purpose i honestly don't know, but it would certainly violate
the spirit of the fcc regs, which leaves it in the realm of an
administrative law judges opinion most likely, again not something to
bet on....  and it's not darn, it's darn good, other people aren't there
for your amusement and playing, this is real life, and believe me there
are people out there with even less of a sense of humor than some police
have, and a lot lower opinion of people who mess with them.

David VanHorn wrote:
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2004\06\15@225233 by hilip Stortz

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sorry, i don't believe in bottom posting.  i know the arguments, i don't
agree with them, it's not a mandatory standard like some things.  i also
don't believe in html in email which i'm pleased to say i haven't seen
much of on this list.  i do occasionally inline post, particularly when
things get lengthy.  i also trim quotes, and hopefully left enough for
you to know what i was talking about if you weren't following things.

David VanHorn wrote:
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2004\06\16@001005 by Russell McMahon

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> other people aren't there for your amusement and playing, this is real
life,

Well said, even if not, perhaps, well meant.
This IS real life. Cars are offensive weapons. People who use them
offensively as they play their selfish games with red lights and other
people's lives. unnecessary speed (as opposed perhaps to just unofficial
speed)  need to appreciate your excellent point.

Or did I misunderstand you ? ;-)

       RM

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2004\06\16@001009 by Russell McMahon

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> sorry, i don't believe in bottom posting.  i know the arguments, i don't
> agree with them, it's not a mandatory standard like some things.

As you say, it's not mandatory, but if you want people to do justice to your
input then its the minimum you can do to help yourself.
If you don't care how people treat your posts, then by all means post any
way you wish.

As an HONEST comment, your posts are an utter pain to read. When you look at
the top of a post on a thread which has several subthreads running and
several people commenting per subthread then in almost every case your
comments make absolutely no sense whatsoever. In essentially all your posts
it has been necessary to dive down the post to the original, digest it, and
then go back to the top. The inclination if not, so far, the actuality, is
to skip the post.



       Russell McMahon

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2004\06\16@003509 by hilip Stortz

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um, no, you didn't miss the point, but i don't think most people enter
their vehicles intending to injure or kill others, if they do they then
cars are actually terribly, terribly safe already.  there is a
difference between negligence and intent, and it's even recognized
legally most of the time, except when people get overly emotionally
involved and lose objectivity.  most bad drivers aren't doing it to play
with people, they are driving poorly because they are poor drivers, many
of them lacking the motor skills and concentration to do a really good
job, and many of them just unaware of how fragile their own life is or
relatively unconcerned about their life or admittedly sometimes the
lives of others, but killing in a car accident is a highly effective way
to get yourself killed, so no i don't really think it is a game like
"russian roulette", now there's a game for fools who don't value life.

cars are not offensive weapons, they are vehicles, like nearly
everything, they can of course be used to injure or kill, and occasional
someone does that, deliberately running people down, but it's
surprisingly rare given the ready access and effectiveness.

on the other hand, you are being deliberate if you send out an rf signal
for the specific reason that you want to see tail lights, and that is in
the game playing domain.

Russell McMahon wrote:
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2004\06\16@003922 by hilip Stortz

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hey, what you consider a pain, i consider less of a pain than what you
like.  as far as people "doing justice to my input", they can take or
leave my thoughts, opinions, and insights, it is their' loss or gain.
i'm not looking for brownie points.  i do try to inline quote when i
have many, specific comments, but i'm going to be pretty casual on this
list.  if it isn't worth it to you, feel free not to read my post, but i
do bother to read post that are bottom posted, even though, honestly, it
is a pain.  just be glad i spell check....  now that makes a big difference.

Russell McMahon wrote:
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2004\06\16@091741 by Randy Glenn

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On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:39:37 -0600, Philip Stortz
<.....madscientist.at.largeKILLspamspam@spam@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> hey, what you consider a pain, i consider less of a pain than what you
> like.  as far as people "doing justice to my input", they can take or
> leave my thoughts, opinions, and insights, it is their' loss or gain.
> i'm not looking for brownie points.  i do try to inline quote when i
> have many, specific comments, but i'm going to be pretty casual on this
> list.  if it isn't worth it to you, feel free not to read my post, but i
> do bother to read post that are bottom posted, even though, honestly, it
> is a pain.  just be glad i spell check....  now that makes a big difference.
>

Now if only you'd locate the Shift key...

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Computer Eng. and Mgt. Year IV, McMaster University
Chair, McMaster IEEE Student Branch

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2004\06\16@151456 by hilip Stortz

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hey, you know that's not the problem, i know where the shift, control
and "command" keys are (i'm on a mac, they use command or a non printing
character marking for what pc's call "alt").  the problem is getting the
wetware to correctly interface with it, the rest of the interface works
fairly well.

Randy Glenn wrote:
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